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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Technomancers and Initiative Passes

Posted by: Gelare Aug 5 2007, 08:31 PM

So, I want to make a Technomancer for this game I'm playing in. Our team is only two people big, so we each get 450 BP to work with, which is just fine, as technomancers are painfully starved for build points and Karma. But anyway, I want him to be able to hack well without slumping down on the floor all the time. Now, since while working with AR you move at meat speeds, that means he needs better reflexes. But here's the thing: technomancers have no way to get better reflexes. Mages can cast Increase Reflexes. Adepts can buy Increase Reflexes. Anyone else can undergo everyone's favorite extremely, painfully invasive cybernetic procedure. And technomancers can...sit on their butt.

So can anyone tell me how to get more meat initiative passes as a technomancer, or barring that, how to hack systems without going into VR all the time?

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Aug 5 2007, 08:48 PM

...this has been my argument against Technomancers all along.

The only way is to use Edge (which is limited to how much edge you have & when the GM lets it refresh), or look into combat drugs (which have undesirable side effects though)
.

Posted by: Tarantula Aug 5 2007, 08:51 PM

Yeah, Hack them in AR. Whats so hard about that? You don't get your +2 for full VR. and you're at a base 1ap per ip instead of 3. Just pump your stealth as high as you can. The less detected you are, the less you need those extra APs. The only problem is you won't be able to hack in, browse what you need, and command it to open (for example to open a door in front of you) as fast as if you went VR/had more meat IP. (Taking 9 seconds instead of 3 in that example).

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Aug 5 2007, 09:11 PM

Err, what exactly stops you from getting something like Synaptic Booster 1 or 2? Yes, your Resonance takes a hit just like a magician Magic does, but that's the price you pay if you want to be good inside the Matrix as well as out...

Posted by: Tarantula Aug 5 2007, 09:25 PM

Nothing does funk. As he said, mages can use increased reflexes to get those extra IPs without losing magic. Technos have the options of drugs, edge, a friendly mage, or essence/resonance cost.

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Aug 5 2007, 09:26 PM

Mages deal with the real world. Technomancers deal with the matrix. They get their "increased reflexes" in the world they specialize in. Why should they have a speed boost outside the matrix where they're nothing but weak little computer nerds? Or are you advocating that magicians should be able to ahve all of a techmancer's speed inside the matrix via magic, too?

Posted by: Tarantula Aug 5 2007, 09:28 PM

Mages deal with the astral. They get their extra IPs while projecting. But they can also get them via a spell in the physical.

Techno's deal with the matrix. They get their extra IPs while in VR. But they can't also get them in the physical without sacrificing their specialty.

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Aug 5 2007, 09:40 PM

<just rolls his eyes>

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Aug 5 2007, 09:45 PM

QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)

...letsee:

...-1 to resonance (particularly bad if you have it at only 5 so that you BP's left over for Attributes that your Living Persona is based on.
...minimum of -16 BPs for resources which are sorely needed elsewhere (see above).

I agree with Tarantula, especially on having the ""friendly mage" with that Increased Reflexes spell. Otherwise find yourself a nice reinforced cellar and work from there remotely just like Otaku needed to do.

One thing concerning Otaku, while starting out fairly weak from the physical standpoint their Living Personas didn't suffer from implantation. As a matter of fact they were required to start with a datajack and ASIST converter implants.

Posted by: Particle_Beam Aug 5 2007, 10:57 PM

How about having your friendly neighbourhood mage casting Increased Reflexes on you if you want to hack while in AR? You know, these spells can be cast upon other persons too.

Posted by: Wasabi Aug 6 2007, 02:45 AM

QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)

As soon as you drop to Resonance 5 you can no longer get two optional powers on a Sprite compiled/registered with Stun damage as a result. Sprites are key to being a successful TM and all TM's take Stun since there is no submerged power like Centering for magi.

A 5 Resonance seems on paper to be small but remember its not just a cap on stun-based Fading but also used for rolling to success with Resonance based skills and for FADING. It really does gimp a TM to drop to a 5.

That being said, there is precious little a TM can't do from an armored van in full VR if there is no wireless paint involved.

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Aug 6 2007, 02:52 AM

Oh wow, you mean there's ACTUAL consequences for wanting to be an awesome Technomancer AND good in physical combat? Who woulda thunk it. That should be changed at once.

Posted by: Gelare Aug 6 2007, 03:42 AM

Sorry Doc Funk, but I'm with Tarantula and friends on this one. It's simply bad game design to have a single class like Technomancer that can't get more initiative passes when every single other class can. Honestly, as cool as the matrix is, you can't kill people with it. Whereas you can kill people with manabolts and guns. Heck, even with those extra initiative passes, it's not as though the technomancer would be a killing machine. His maybe one rank in pistols would not do him a whole lot of good. What he could do is provide matrix backup for his teammates at reasonable speeds while still being able to walk. Is walking too much to ask? Honestly. Having the technomancer be dependent on the party mage - who might or might not even exist - to be effective is not good.

Posted by: Fortune Aug 6 2007, 03:45 AM

But that's the point. They can get extra IP if they so choose. There is just a trade-off.

Posted by: Tarantula Aug 6 2007, 03:48 AM

Yes, but that tradeoff is of terrible proportions in comparison to other character concepts.

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Aug 6 2007, 03:54 AM

First, there are no classes in this game.

Second, they can -- as Fortune pointed out -- get the extra IP. It just comes at a cost. Just like everyone else. Mages have to give up a spell slot and buy and bond with a focus, a cyberjunkie has to give up Essence that could have gotten him another limb or some other awesome implants, riggers have to pay a bunch to get some implants instead of a few more drones or vehicles, hackers have the same issue, and an adept has to give up a big chunk of their power points that could have been used for cooler powers.

Look! Everyone has to pay the price for their reflexes. Imagine. That.

Third, how the hell do you propose to give Technomancers a "technomancer-only" way of boosting their reflexes? What? Now they can hack living people and boost their natural reflexes? How stupid would that be both conceptually and mechanically? Very. Especially since they can and do have no less than four options to improve their reflexes (Wired Reflexes, Move-By-Wire, Synaptic Booster, and Cram) outside of the Matrix. WHICH IS THEIR MAIN WEAKNESS -- they SUCK outside of the Matrix.

You want your cake and eat it to? Pay the price. Else you better be advocating that everyone should be able to get boosted reflexes without having any consequences.

Finally, if it's really a problem, just play a hacker. Or is there some other reason you want to ply a technomancer instead? Because they're better and more powerful? No, that couldn't be it... not at all.

Posted by: hobgoblin Aug 6 2007, 03:55 AM

maybe its not so much that tm's are underpowered but that mages are overpowered?

hell, with ar interface a mage can now even kick ass online. one pc, all worlds (meat, astral, matrix) covered.

anyone up for a build?

Posted by: Tarantula Aug 6 2007, 03:58 AM

Heres the point. A cyberjunkie gives up essence to get the IP instead of a limb or other implants. A techno gives up essence to get the IP. He also gives up resonance which is the very core of what having the technomancer quality is. I note you don't mention that adepts could get cyber to get the extra IP also, which would be the best comparison you can make. Adepts/Mages have a magic rating, which they can lose in order to get cyber for extra IPs. However, they also have the option of using their magic rating in order to gain the extra IPs they need (via powers or spells). Technos have resonance, which they can lose in order to get cyber for extra IPs. But they have no way to use that resonance to gain extra IPs.

Posted by: Jaid Aug 6 2007, 03:58 AM

QUOTE (Tarantula)

Yes, but that tradeoff is of terrible proportions in comparison to other character concepts.

indeed, i have to agree with this opinion.

the TM already pays for his awesome in the matrix by not having the BPs available to buy skills and attributes to be really good anywhere else.

and if he does ignore his TM abilities in favor of being effective outside of the matrix, then first off, he's ignoring the rule of the TM quality, and secondly, at that point he's traded in 90% of his awesome in the matrix, and can only ever make himself passable or decent in the matrix... which, for the record, a hacker can do for under 100k nuyen/20 BP. which is enough to buy the TM quality, raise resonance to 2 (which will be dropped back to 1 if you get *any* 'ware at all, and can very easily drop to 0 if you're not careful) and buy 5 points worth of CFs. or 1 point in a resonance skill group skill (presumably compiling) and a single CF)

what costs the hacker 20 BPs or so and doesn't require any particularly impressive attributes in the mental area (though of course it's always nice, but not having to worry about needing a 5 in an attribute means you don't need to worry about taking a -1 or -2 penalty to that attribute's max) isn't even quite possible at chargen for the TM (though they can cover up for the holes left in their abilities).

Posted by: Particle_Beam Aug 6 2007, 04:01 AM

Is character creation the only place and time where a character concept is considered valuable at all? Doesn't anybody just try and play first and get his character up to the better level together with the other characters played by the other players? Do people here only care about one-shots, or what?

Posted by: Jaid Aug 6 2007, 04:05 AM

QUOTE (Particle_Beam)

if there's one thing i've learned from D&D, it's that sucking for the first 5 levels does not compensate for being awesome the next 5 levels.

translation: the game should be fun from chargen. if being a wizard at level 1 sucks, but renders fighters obsolete later on (while conversely fighters are amazing at level 1, and then get a 1-way ticket to suck later on) that's not a good thing... that means that no matter what level you play at, someone is going to be innefective, which makes it awfully hard to enjoy the game.

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Aug 6 2007, 04:07 AM

QUOTE (Jaid)

...at that point he's traded in 90% of his awesome in the matrix, and can only ever make himself passable or decent in the matrix... which, for the record, a hacker can do for under 100k nuyen/20 BP...

As I said before, then: Stick with playing a hacker. They're clearly the superior choice and the poor, desperate, grossly underpowered technomancer doesn't stand a chance of keeping up with a hacker! They're just that pathetic. Woe is them. My heart is pouring out for them, it truly is.

Posted by: Particle_Beam Aug 6 2007, 04:28 AM

QUOTE

if there's one thing i've learned from D&D, it's that sucking for the first 5 levels does not compensate for being awesome the next 5 levels.

Wait? In D&D? The first five levels, that are quickly gone past, and where there aren't any major super-beasts and challenges anyhow, because everybody else would also die so fast?

If I were truly an optimized-focused player wishing to dominate the entire game with ease without any regards to my fellow players, I would always only play wizards or clerics and then change to the first wizard/cleric-directed prestige class as soon as possible. And even if no prestige classes were allowed, I would then simply play either a wizard or a cleric, and nothing else.

D&D is always the bad example to comparing the situation regarding SR, because the really funny stuff in D&D begins with level 8 upwards. And that's when wizards and clerics are leaving all the other classes behind, and only need them to be meat-shields anymore.

Posted by: hobgoblin Aug 6 2007, 04:43 AM

how many initiative passes does a sprite get out of the box again?

edit:

found out. all of them get 3 pr default. so yet again the power of the tm lies in the sprites...

Posted by: Vaevictis Aug 6 2007, 05:17 AM

QUOTE (Gelare)

Honestly, as cool as the matrix is, you can't kill people with it.

Clearly you have never heard of a drone.

QUOTE (hobgoblin)

hell, with ar interface a mage can now even kick ass online. one pc, all worlds (meat, astral, matrix) covered.

... as if a mage isn't enough of a karma sink as it is. If the mage is spending karma on computer and combat skills, he ain't spending it on becoming a better mage by initiating and increasing his magic.

Hmm, you know, that sounds kind of similar to the same boat the technomancer is in. Branch out, and you've paid an opportunity cost that's expressed by not being that much better in your specialty.

Look, it sucks to be a technomancer who's got to fight in the meat world. It's true.

... but that's why technomancers have drones. Most of the time, a technomancer doesn't have to fight in the meat world. He has drones -- hopefully commanded by sprites, right? -- to do that for him.

Posted by: Gelare Aug 6 2007, 05:18 AM

QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)

QUOTE (Jaid @ Aug 5 2007, 09:58 PM)

Actually, I will play a hacker. The minor benefit of threading and the moderate benefit of sprites are not enough to offset the hacker's ability to be actually competent in the real world. Considering how extremely important it is for a character to have multiple initiative passes in this game, playing a technomancer in a two person party would be tantamount to suicide. It's really a pity that technomancers are so poor, desperate, and grossly underpowered, because their character concept is just awesome. Oh well. Synaptic Booster 2 is probably the best option for a technomancer. Granted, the character's resonance will start at four instead of five, and between the point of resonance and the cost of the procedure he'll be out 42 precious, scarce build points, and his sprites will all suck a little more, and the maximum for every stat he uses in the matrix will be reduced to an more uninspiring level, but hey, I guess it's the player's fault for wanting to play a class with a cool concept that is fundamentally underpowered. Oh well.

Posted by: Particle_Beam Aug 6 2007, 05:23 AM

Yes, it is really the player's fault to reduce the character only to his starting combat capabilities at character creation and be done with it.

Posted by: KiwiTroll Aug 6 2007, 07:02 AM

Hi there - first post but i really need to stick my oar in.

The issue here is not so much that the technomancer sucks in non VR combat and actions but that the promise of the technomancer idea (which was someone completely immersed at all times) seems to fall flat against other computer users. In AR what seems to be needed is a way for a technomancer to proccess actions online at the same speed as a dumbass gangbanger with wired reflexes. Now AR is distinct from astral space in that it is open to other characters beyond mages and adepts willing to pay up and it is because of this that technomancers should be beefed up for AR actions.

While not RAW I would have no objection to a technomancer getting 3 passes as a free perk so long as only one involved his physical body. It would simulate the immersion idea and would get the TMs out of the bunker the way wireless did for deckers/hackers.

At the moment i would not play a TM as the build seems to be massively inferior to other archetype designs. Especially when you consider the lack of a second path for technomancers in augmenting their capabilities.

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Aug 6 2007, 07:02 AM

…a little after the fact, however, I’ve read all the arguments and when it comes down to it, Technomancers are still crocked more than any other archetype. In all the campaigns I’ve been in, a techno would never have survived her first mission. Like they Otaku before them they cannot handle running in the meat world unless they have the big bad Troll Sammy buddy to step in the way and take the bullets for them.

I actually tried to run an Otaku once, and after the second session I retired her. She was totally useless in the field, and therefore a liability to the other team members. Heck, if another character sneezed at her she’d take a serious wound. Where she was at her best was back with her tribe in the hardened bunker they had. The one thing, it’s not much fun to play a character who sits on her bum 80% of the session twiddling her thumbs waiting for the time she finally called upon to go into the matrix (which was often shortcut because a full matrix run took so much time and bored the other players). Otaku made great NPCs but not PCs unless the whole team was Otaku and it was a matrix mission.

The same holds true for Techonmancers. They are a poor concept for a PC on a regular team of runners considering the physical dangers out in the shadows. Yes, a mage needs to bond a sustaining focus. What’s that cost? 3 BPs for the spell slot, 6 BPs in resources for a power 3 sustaining focus, and 3 BPs to bind it for a total of 12 and now she has 3 IPs with no loss to her MA. 5 Karma, and she has that spell slot back. For a technomancer to do the same costs 32 BPs in resources and she loses 1 rating level to her Resonance. So to start with an effective resonance of 5 she needs to spend a total of 65 BPs to buy it at 6, (which also means she needs to submerge to get it back up to 6). This makes that Synaptic Booster 2 effectively cost her 57 BPs at the outset.

As to the chargen argument, I agree with Jaid, the character should be enjoyable to play at the outset and not 50 or more karma down the road. From my experience, surviving to get that Karma with only 1 IP is a pretty tall order. Yeah a Techno can control drones, but those drones won’t help her dodge the next burst from that Sammy when she’s already used her one meatworld IP up.

Posted by: Cthulhudreams Aug 6 2007, 07:12 AM

If you gone the drone route, why not detach yourself from the combat stage and send in the clowns then? So you can get face time up and to the "highly dangerous illegal activities commence here" line when people pull out the weapons that are not really concealable ratings, and send in a steel lynx instead?

Posted by: Ravor Aug 6 2007, 08:03 AM

Adepts are flat out crazy if they try to get their extra IPs and Stat Boosts from Magic as opposed to bioware.

Mages, well it's considered heresy here, but in a world where Wards are cheap, easy and very common using a spell to get their extra IPs and Stat Boosts isn't really that great of an idea either, even if you have a nice DM who doesn't believe in using the Focus Addiction Rules. (And that isn't even considering the problem of glowing like a christmas tree on the Astral.)

Posted by: Fortune Aug 6 2007, 08:51 AM

QUOTE (Ravor)

(And that isn't even considering the problem of glowing like a christmas tree on the Astral.)

I concur. Bio is definitely the better way to go for the Awakened, in my opinion.

Posted by: Fuchs Aug 6 2007, 09:04 AM

It also depends on the type of campaign you are running. We house-ruled sustaining spell focuses out a long time ago since we did not want mages to be as fast as samurais, and over time, the game theme changed so that high initiative - or, in SR4, many IPs - became not as needed anyway. We often have entire sessions without combat, or detailed combat, and when we do have combat, the street samurai shines. If you rarely have more than one important combat per evening, an edge point is easily spent as well.

Even in combat heavy campaigns, a focus on tactics and cover, trying to prevent the enemy from getting clear shots at your team (hack their smartlinks, hack the sprinklers and lighting system, send them false orders, etc.), may make high IPs less needed.

Of course, if you generally can't take cover and can't rely on the other team members taking down the enemies quickly, and can't rely on the opposition focussing on those threats instead of on you, then a high number of IPs might be needed to survive.

Posted by: Blade Aug 6 2007, 09:46 AM

Drugs.

Take some cram, or jazz: cheap, essence-friendly and astrally inactive!

Posted by: NightmareX Aug 6 2007, 11:17 AM

QUOTE (hobgoblin)

hell, with ar interface a mage can now even kick ass online. one pc, all worlds (meat, astral, matrix) covered.

Not well, and sure as hell not efficiently.

Posted by: NightmareX Aug 6 2007, 11:17 AM

QUOTE (Jaid)

translation: the game should be fun from chargen.

It is. if you don't approach it in typical D&D hack slash fashion. This isn't D&D, it's SR - totally different game, totally different mindset required (or at least implied by the rules and setting.

This sort of thing is precisely what I was refering to in my thread about the Point of this game

Posted by: NightmareX Aug 6 2007, 11:18 AM

QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)

One thing concerning Otaku, while starting out fairly weak from the physical standpoint their Living Personas didn't suffer from implantation. As a matter of fact they were required to start with a datajack and ASIST converter implants.

Given the in setting difference between how their powers work, I can totally understand the "implants hurt Resonance" stance the rules take.

QUOTE (Gelare)

Excuse me? Class? Did I just stray into a WotC forum for a sec here? This isn't D&D friend - the world, the in setting explanation for things (like technomancers) is more important than some arbitrary juvenile "game balance". Thus, it is not poor game design to make the rules reflect the conditions of the setting, but rather good setting design.

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Aug 6 2007, 03:02 PM

QUOTE (Ravor)

Adepts are flat out crazy if they try to get their extra IPs and Stat Boosts from Magic as opposed to bioware.

...only because the costs of adept powers were not brought into line with the power scale of the game (eg 6 in the old = 4 in the new).

...but let's not continue on this track here, there are other threads that discuss adepts.

Posted by: Gelare Aug 6 2007, 04:38 PM

QUOTE (NightmareX)

QUOTE (Gelare)

Perhaps it is good setting design, but it is poor game design to not have balanced classes, and yes, I said classes because it is an easy and straightforward way to describe how the mage does not do the same thing as the rigger and never will. I could say "character specializations" and it would mean the same thing but longer. I mean, to be fair, I do really like the Shadowrun setting, it's just awesome, and I really wish that they would release an entire sourcebook about the setting itself, along with all the things that get talked about on these boards that aren't mentioned in the rulebooks. I can't tell you how long it took me to find out that a Thor Shot platform was a satellite that dropped giant tungsten rods from space to kill things. Which, again, is another sweet piece of flavor.

But at the risk of digressing too far, I'd like to go back to technomancers. The point of making the Matrix wireless was so that the hackers could join the rest of their buddies in the field, and in my games they need to because everyone's favorite lead paint blocks Wifi signals as well as anyone could ask. The hacker can move and hack at the same time and at the same speed as the rest of the party. The technomancer can either hack at snail speeds, or he can become a corpse the team has to carry around and hack at regular speeds. It's simply not right, especially considering how potentially cool technomancers are.

Posted by: PlatonicPimp Aug 6 2007, 05:08 PM

A technomancer hacking AR style does it by summoning a sprite and sicking it to the task. He doesn't do it himself, he talks to the matrix and the matrix does it for him. Not only is it a viable tactic, it's thematically cool and totally differentiates a technomancer from a hacker. And don't go saying that hackers get agents, so they're even. Sprites are much, much more than agents.

Posted by: Fuchs Aug 6 2007, 05:18 PM

Maybe the question should be: Does every character need multiple IPs to survive a battle?

I am not convinced that this is the case if people use cover, tactics, and coordination and let the multi-IP characters shine.

Posted by: Jaid Aug 6 2007, 05:38 PM

QUOTE (Fuchs)

it's not about surviving the battle, and it's not about having multiple IPs for attacking.

it's about being able to hack from AR effectively.

a hacker can (with wired or synaptic booster) hack in combat with 3 IPs, thereby allowing them to be effective.

a technomancer can't hack in 3 IPs in combat unless they either take a major hit to their power and pay a huge cost for it, or if they go unconscious and don't have any physical defenses whatsoever.

letting TMs get 3 IPs wouldn't do an awful lot for TMs being able to go offensive physically themselves. their combat skills are probably still 1, possibly with a specialisation. having 3 IPs simply means that they could miss 3 times as often.

all 3 IPs would give them is the ability to actually contribute in combat by hacking while still having at least some awareness and mobility.

and seriously, anyone who wants to argue that the TM can help in combat by hacking the way things stand now... that's just ridiculous. assuming it takes only 1 IP to hack on the fly into a relevant PAN, you're looking at the combat quite possibly being over before you get to actually do anything. unless of course you go into full sim, in which case you've probably been shot several times because you can't dodge, can't take cover, and in general can't act or react in the meatworld.

Posted by: PlatonicPimp Aug 6 2007, 05:46 PM

I think we're saying they aren't supposed to. I'm saying they outsoure. Others are saying they stay away from combat. Others are saying you get the essence friendly high grade bioware and suck up a point of resonance loss, the same as a mage.

Face it, a technomancer is not just a weird-ass hacker. The play style is fundamentally different.

Posted by: Whipstitch Aug 6 2007, 05:55 PM

QUOTE (Particle_Beam @ Aug 5 2007, 11:01 PM)

I tried a TM in a long term campaign. Essentially, my TM hit the wall early because submerging isn't really all that great, complex forms are horribly expensive, and skills cost more than attributes at the high end. This would in theory leave attributes as the way to boost your TM, but you can't really afford to leave attributes low (so you can buy them cheap later) because your mental skills are tied directly to the effectiveness of your complex forms; you can't have good forms without good attributes. Did I manage to do a few things a hacker couldn't of done? Once or twice, I suppose, although it would be more accurate to say my sprites did things a hacker could not have done. I also got knocked out or nearly killed by long matrix endurance runs through minor obstacles a hacker would have breezed through, since light fading and 'trix combat damage goes straight to your actual damage track rather than dinging up your Icon (which you can just patch up with medic anyway). Eventually I ended up dinking around and blowing all my karma on specializations (they're at least affordable), and eventually I actually fended off a ganger all by myself. A proud day to be sure. Meanwhile, the hacker/social adept my brother played a few sessions back was several different flavors of awesome. In fact, if anything, I'd say I like the idea of playing a TM for a one shot adventure with some decent matrix action better than I like the idea of playing through a long campaign and hoping all the runs have a ridiculous enough matrix obstacle to require using my sprites, thereby justifying my TM's existence.

Posted by: odinson Aug 6 2007, 06:01 PM

The problem is the assumption that everyone needs 3 IP's. The group we play in now everyone except the street sammy has 1 IP. The sammy only has 2. If you compare min maxed characters then yeah, the techno really sucks in the meat world. Thats because you've made him an uber specialist matrix hacker and everyone else has made awesome combat guys. If you all have well rounded characters then nobody would suck in one particular area. If you want to be a techno street sammy then get the bio and cyber and suck up the resonance loss. There is always karma to improve the character so he's the best at everything. If you want your starting characters to be the best everywhere play a 700bp game. You're starting characters. You should be ok everywhere and kinda good somewhere else.

Posted by: Whipstitch Aug 6 2007, 06:08 PM

You guys must play in a world where all the LoneStar officers don't keep Jazz in the glove compartment.

Posted by: Fuchs Aug 6 2007, 06:08 PM

I rarely envision combat as some "quickdraw, shoot them dead in 3 seconds, don't waste any action on going prone, kneeling, or even seek cover" affair. So, I can see a lot of situations where people take cover, the hacker hacks while the rest keeps the opposition at bay, and then moves in coordination.

Posted by: Ravor Aug 6 2007, 06:14 PM

Plus something that all too often gets forgotten is that in Fourth Edition almost everyone will have a Dicepool of only 4-8 Dice before equipment modifiers so you don't really have to make Runners that roll buckets of Dice in order to survive and thrive.

And 2 IPs are easy to get, in my opinion 3 IPs aren't generally worth the extra effort unless your DM forgets the basic rules of the Sixth World and goes into "arms race mode" OR you really are playing a best-of-the-best-world-class Prime Runner campaign. (And quite frankly I find those rather boring most of the time.)

*Edit*

Hell in my campaigns most sec-guards have access to combat drugs, although of course not all of them are necessarily willing to take them, but that doesn't mean that 3 IPs are "must have", combat gets alot more interesting if you have to win on tactics as opposed to just getting to shoot more often.

Posted by: Vaevictis Aug 6 2007, 06:20 PM

I would just like to point out that it doesn't matter how many more IPs your enemy has than you... if you kill them on the first pass.

Posted by: Whipstitch Aug 6 2007, 06:35 PM

One houserule I thought I'd suggest: Let Overclocking give you an extra initiative pass when using AR that can only be used for matrix actions. Or, hell, you could make it it's own Submersion if you want. Name it Matrix Multi-tasking and call it a day. Combat Hackers would still be more flexible at AR hacking with wired reflexes, but at least it'd give TMs a way to be more effective 'trix side while still being aware of their surroundings.

Posted by: Fortune Aug 7 2007, 01:17 AM

QUOTE (Jaid)

it's about being able to hack from AR effectively.

a hacker can (with wired or synaptic booster) hack in combat with 3 IPs, thereby allowing them to be effective.

a technomancer can't hack in 3 IPs in combat unless they either take a major hit to their power and pay a huge cost for it, or if they go unconscious and don't have any physical defenses whatsoever.

Maybe the solution is to totally disallow meat Initiative boosts when working in AR. This would level the playing field.

Posted by: Buster Aug 7 2007, 01:30 AM

You could just screw that "Resonance isn't magic" crap and create a "Mystic Technomancer" hybrid class like the Mystic Adept. Call your Resonance pool a Magic pool and split your Magic pool for technomancer + adept/magician goodness. One of my favorite changes in SR4 was the combination of Deckers and Riggers. Why shouldn't the Awakened classes be any different?

One of the books mentioned that the transhumanists were trying to create an Ascended Being, so that would be a nice name for the class. Heck let them split their magic between Technomancer, Adept, AND Magician if they want using the Mystic Adept rules, how game breaking could it be? You'd end up with a character who sucked at everything, but it'd be really cool. 200 karma later, you'd have Neo. At chargen, charge the same BP as Mystic Adept + Technomancer (10bp and 5 bp i think, so the Ascended Being positive quality would be 15 bp) and use the Mystic Adept rules for splitting the Magic points between the 3 classes. That sounds like fun and I don't think it would be particularly broken.

Posted by: farrenj Aug 7 2007, 01:36 AM

Personally, I think there needs to be more a look at the flavor and less of a focus on mechanics. Any reasonable GM will work with it's players to make sure thier players will have thier moments to shine, regardless of whose characters are the most "effective." The complaint should not be about the http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbaTur4A1OU of the character but about a GM who doesn't allow your character to shine just because the mechanics might be a little off.

Posted by: Whipstitch Aug 7 2007, 02:29 AM

Perhaps, but that doesn't mean the rules should make the job of keeping everyone happy any harder than it has to be for the GM. I also must say that such an approach isn't appropriate for all groups either. My group doesn't really need a soccer mom approach from our gm; we're not there to make sure we all feel special because we tried our best even if the dice says we suck. I like rp best when it's about situations and consequences, not molding the game around people's preconceptions of what their character "should" be capable of. Creating a fluffy background isn't RP to me, but sucking it up and dealing (in character) with the bad consequences the dice just handed you is. Anyway, my group likes rp, but I think we like collaborative problem solving even more than we like collaborative storytelling. Quite simply, TMs require an awful lot of babying for how much they bring to the table. They're truly awesome in the right circumstances, but honestly, I'd like to see the sacrifice it takes to be a good one toned down a tiny bit.

Posted by: Particle_Beam Aug 7 2007, 03:06 AM

Only if all that you want is to make the Technomancer a combat-focused character too, and your game is heavily sided on combat, does the Technomancer character need the 'soccer mom' approach. However, the Technomancer isn't meant as combat-focused character, and the rules for them are quite new.
Unwired will be the book about all Matrix things, and that means Technomancers and more Echoes, sprite abilities and such.

Posted by: Dender Aug 7 2007, 03:38 AM

QUOTE (hobgoblin)

Had a player with that concept in my game. Badass mage, good summoner, almost as good in the matrix as the hacker who dumped everything he had into hacking. Generally awesome, and tossed a mean gout of face melting acid. Decided to impose the self limiter that he was untrained at astral combat, because it was funny.

Funk, take it down a notch. Mages can cast their reflexes spell on anyone, not just themselves. In the meat, everyone starts at 1, in the matrix, most systems and agents start at 3. Anyone running VR starts at 2, or 3 if hot.

That mage? yea, with a tweaked custom spell, he can make the whole party have 4 passes. Might take him down a bit, but increased reflexes is Threshold. Alls it takes is upping the drain by like... 3. The matrix ninja? yea... he gets hurt in the matrix, he gets hurt in the real. He dies in the matrix, he goes offline- perminantly. No blackhammer required.

Top of my head, Mages buy a spell at a set cost (3bp/5karma) and get a variable max force based on magic. Virtuakineticists? Yea, they pay by the rank. Sure, they can thread to exceed their maximum, but mages get to do that in 1 action. Its called overcasting.

Mages don't need 8 spells to function. Hell, 3 and they're practically streetsams. they can make up their own spells, meaning they have no cap to their repetoire. And of course, my personal favorite

You can't matrix a dragon to death. You might be able to drone one, but hell, any chummer with a chunk of change to drop on an agent or two can do that.

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Aug 7 2007, 04:04 AM

Your issue is with Magicians and a belief that they are overpowered. All while still ignoring that they have a consequence to pay for that ability.

That has nothing -- nada, zip, zilch, nothing -- to do with Technomancers. The people in this thread are basically beginning to give Technomancers -- and only Technomancers -- a worry-free way to bolster their reflexes outside of the Matrix. The place where they're SUPPOSED to suck. And not just suck, but suck BADLY. Nevermind that they can have an entire fleet of super-fast, heavily armed, heavily-armored drones at their command in the meat world with neglibile perforamnce issues. Who cares about that little thing?

It's ridiculous.

I hate to break it to you, but if you want to be good at everything, you simply can't. In fact, the people in this thread are whining because if they do get Wired Reflexes or the like, their performance will be downgraded to being only slightly better than a Hacker in the Matrix as opposed to way beyond.

Forgive me if I don't cry a river over that. Doubly so since they try to make it sound as if they can't recover from it as the game progresses.

Posted by: Dender Aug 7 2007, 04:07 AM

QUOTE (Whipstitch)

[...] sucking it up and dealing (in character) with the bad consequences the dice just handed you is. [...]

"Don't worry guys, i'm a GOD at sniping with my 3 passes and 18 dicepool. I'll just get into position away from the party on a rooftop somewhere within a quarter mile, and if anyone pulls a gun on you, i'll drop them (critglitch, rifle is broken) Well. I'm out."

"No worries guys, I used to be a doctor, plus with the autodoc here, we should be able to have the Sam here back up and kicking in no time (critglitch, GNC) He's dead jim..."

Though there are some times when it is horrendously fun

"Ok, i'm taking every preparation possible to protect the city. Summoning force 8 spirit with 12 dice plus 4 edge"

"i'm reasonably fit with 4 body, i can swim without skill"

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Aug 7 2007, 04:16 AM

I also don't see why people keep bringing up magicians in this thread.

Unlike Technomancers, magicians use the brunt of their abilities in the meat world. They need those extra actions to cast more spells and command more spirits. What unique abilities do Technomancers have in the meat world again? None whatsoever? Yeah, that's what I thought. Because the brunt of their abilities are Matrix related -- and what do you know, in the Matrix they have fantastic reflexes. Imagine that. And when they do need to do things solely in the meat world? They can have drones do it for them.

I'm just not seeing this glaring weakness people here are clamoring about.

Posted by: Dender Aug 7 2007, 04:20 AM

The issue is that a streetsam can go and drop 20BP into programs on top of their cyber/bioware and BE awesome at everything. But that if a technomancer wants to not be the human backpack who dies from attack programs, they had no option but to go AR and suck. Our groups technomancer's way around this was to only focus on threading and compiling sprites. GM takes over, and tells us if it worked.

Completely streamlines matrix hacking rules, and gets around that pesky question of "well, if i can interact with the matrix with my mind, why can't i just skip through all the security layer hubs to get to the restricted areas?"

The street sam can't sneak, he has to shoot his way into a building. The infiltration expert can sneak in. Why should he need to fire 4 rounds into the door to get in when he spies an open window a few floors up?

Technomancer still has to breach the firewall, and how he "enters" is completely for descriptive purposes over the hacker. Its still the same soy flavored rules.

Posted by: Dender Aug 7 2007, 04:31 AM

Anyone running VR has fantastic reflexes. Technomancers used to have the edge with that submersion technique, but with AUG, that edge is gone.

You're forgetting though, Mages can do astral as well. Noone else can do that without summoning. Astral perception is not to AR as projection is to VR though, because you can't drop 20BP on "magical programs" to handle barriers and astral combat.

The weakness is that a skill-based character can be well rounded and handle all aspects of meat-world well enough. An ultra speced character can be god at one thing, but still be alright at other things (max agi and max one skill is not that big of a deal)

Sure, Rounded might be able to do anything, but Speced can function and squeak by. Technomancer can only spec to matrix.

Posted by: odinson Aug 7 2007, 04:54 AM

QUOTE (Dender)

Sure, Rounded might be able to do anything, but Speced can function and squeak by. Technomancer can only spec to matrix.

So if a person doesn't want to specialize at the matrix then they shouldn't be a technomancer. If they want to be a combat guy, they should play a street sam.

Posted by: Tarantula Aug 7 2007, 04:57 AM

Funk, the problem with your drone analogy, is that anyone with some cash can have drones piloted with agents doing the exact same thing. Almost as good as the technomancer. And, they'd have more IPs to give their drones different commands, instead of the drones obliterating one guy, and sitting idle waiting for their next command.

Sprites are not all that much better at piloting a drone than an agent is. And, if you have so many sprites that you are, a mage could have that many bound spirits instead, and be much more effective at meat combat than the drones would be, while still having his 3-4IPs from increased reflexes.

Posted by: Cthulhudreams Aug 7 2007, 05:16 AM

If you compare technomancers to the most closely related 'archetype' - hacker adepts - you actually get a pretty good comparison. Both have real problems getting boosted reflexes by cyberware because they need the BPs for other things (buying equipment and magic and buying resonance and complex forms respectively) and it is more expensive for an adept with magic 4 (3 points spent on being a hacker adept, and one lost to cyberware) to get the adept improved reflexes than it is to buy synaptic boosters so he's not going to get the adept power.

It just looks to me that the real difference is that you can be a pretty awesome hacker adept for ~350 ish BPs including gear, who's throwing down 4 dice of skill + 5 dice of program + hotsimming via a DNI on everything, with plenty (~50 bps) to slap down on skills and equipment for something else. Like being a mini face, or a rigger, or some stealth skills and so forth. Which our technomancer doesn't really get to do.

So the problem is not that a technomancers get the shaft from the IP rules, because they can totally buy a synaptic booster like anyone else. What they don;t have is the BPs to afford to buy that booster because their other abilities are seriously BP intensive.

Posted by: Tarantula Aug 7 2007, 05:18 AM

And because losing resonance means losing a ton of potential in their specialty.

Posted by: Particle_Beam Aug 7 2007, 05:19 AM

Which in the end only means that all that people care for is having an optimized character at character generation for a one-shot adventure, and nothing else.

Posted by: Cthulhudreams Aug 7 2007, 05:33 AM

QUOTE (Particle_Beam @ Aug 7 2007, 12:19 AM)

Which in the end only means that all that people care for is having an optimized character at character generation for a one-shot adventure, and nothing else.

Is that a comment pointed at me?

Anyway, I have to disagree because the hacker adept can quickly round out his abilities to be about as good as he can be. A quick commlink upgrade gets him +1 to everything (so he can take advantage of his rating 6 programs), a few magic points away (1 form getting to +3, maybe 2 from getting +4, plus however much he needs to take his skills to that level (which gives him diversity)) from maxing that, and needs to advance the two skill groups to 6. Now he's pretty much the hottest hacker in the world.

Plus he can totally slap down some more BP on some diversity, or some drones or whatever it ger himself across the line.

Sure the technomancer long term can overtake that eventually, but really I want my players to be equally good all the time. And if he does go to overtake that, well, it's expensive for him. And in the mean time the adept has dabbled in rigging and is a pretty sweet face too.

so it seems that the hacker adept starts better and matures faster until he hits his cap, then he diversifies. Eventually the techo catches up with him sure, but it's not been fun times for his player in the mean time.

Okay so totally sweet technomancer roleplaying side (I love the idea of sprites, spirit s of the matrix!) they do seem to get a raw deal unless they do some uber cheese drones with sprites using diagnostics for a gazillion dice thing.

Edit: Not that the raw deal has anything to do with IP passes or whatever.

Posted by: Fortune Aug 7 2007, 05:53 AM

QUOTE (Cthulhudreams)

... but really I want my players to be equally good all the time.

And this is where we differ. I don't think it is necessary for all characters to be 'equally good', as long as everyone has fun. Hell, Shadowrun is one of the easiest games in which to mix PCs with disparate levels of power.

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Aug 7 2007, 05:55 AM

I agree with Fortune. (Weird, I know). I think it adds a bit of realism that not all PCs are created equal, even despite equal BP. There is a reason that it's common street wisdom to Geek the Mage First after all.

Posted by: Jaid Aug 7 2007, 06:06 AM

what i don't get is that people are objecting to TMs getting multiple IPs in the meat (to handle AR hacking) because they think it will make TMs good in their meatbods.

news flash: attribute 2-3, skill 1 (with a specialisation) is not going to steal the street sam's thunder in any way, shape, or form. and that's about the most i've ever had with any technomancer in a combat skill, or in dodge.

what it does is give them some capability to move to cover and hack, rather than doing a faceplant and getting shot repeatedly until they die while they try to hack.

if the technomancer does somehow manage to scrap together enough BPs to get good combat skills, then he isn't going to be "slightly better than a hacker" in the matrix. he will suck in the matrix. because that's the only way he can develop the skills and physical attributes to be effective in physical combat. he's still completely reliant on drones for interacting with the meat world effectively, the only difference is that with multiple IPs he can try to hack while in the meatworld, and actually get anything accomplished. ie you don't need to hire an extra troll just to carry the technomancer's body.

Posted by: Cthulhudreams Aug 7 2007, 06:17 AM

QUOTE (Fortune @ Aug 7 2007, 12:53 AM)

QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Aug 7 2007, 03:33 PM)

... but really I want my players to be equally good all the time.

Fair enough

That said it's really hard to have a discussion about game mechanics unless you are willing to accept that basic premise for the discussion is that a hacker adept should get as much bang for their buck as a technomancer or a conventional mundane hacker.

I agree - as the Gm you have a great suite of tools at hand to keep everyone happy - and are more than capable of leveraging it up a bit when differently powered players have different schticks. If the technomancer is the only matrix focused character going, and has diversified so he isn't so hot in the matrix, you can just make the systems easier to hack etc. He still looks good, gets to do his thang, the player gets screen time, everyone has fun. The karma/nuyen separate reward mechanic gives you some of the same effect, so you can splash the sammie a little bit more cash or whatever than a combat focused mage or visa versa.

None of this invalidates the 'geek the mage' thang. If mages are glass cannons, but lack the durability and diversity of a street sammie, you still want to shoot him first

However, my previous experience indicates problems begin when you have characters with similar functional objectives (say, hacking the planet)even if they have divergent themes (technomancer vs hacker adept vs mundane hacker, or whatever it is in your game system this month). It can be hard to let them both shine equally without artificial manipulation.

Maybe I'm a bad GM though, but I'd like my hand held so players are equally stong in their main functional themes so I don't have to think about it.

Posted by: Fortune Aug 7 2007, 06:27 AM

QUOTE (Cthulhudreams)

... so players are equally stong in their main functional themes so I don't have to think about it.

But that's just it. They are on a par 'in their main functional themes'.

Posted by: Cthulhudreams Aug 7 2007, 06:50 AM

QUOTE (Fortune @ Aug 7 2007, 01:27 AM)

QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Aug 7 2007, 04:17 PM)

... so players are equally stong in their main functional themes so I don't have to think about it.

But that's just it. They are on a par 'in their main functional themes'.

If I'm saying 'everything you can do, I can do, and I can do this other stuff as well' Then there is still a functional themes issue.

Going back to my screen time and chance to shine issue, if someone has Face + Hacker, and the other guy just has Hacker, then while they might be equally good hackers, the other schtick thing is an issue. It's harder to divvy up the screen time nicely then

But if one guy had Face + Hacking, and the other guy had Awesome Crime Scene investigator + Hacker, or whatever the heck it is, then screen time is easier.

which is my 2 cents as to The Problem With Technomancers Who Do Something Aside From Being Really Awesome Riggers. If you make a technomancer into a hot hacker it costs way more points than a hacker adept to be a hot hacker, which means the hacker is doing something else cool as well. Like being a ninja or whatever. Or maybe he's got commanding voice, a high charisma and a bunch of levels of kinestics.

And my reading of this thread and some back of the envelope numbers in excel seems to indicate thats the problem.

Posted by: Critias Aug 7 2007, 07:04 AM

What's especially amusing about this conversation is it's the people that still refer to characters in Shadowrun as belonging to a certain "class," that keep insisting those same characters should innately all be very good at two or more wholly unrelated things. At the same time that they're so eager to shoehorn everyone in Shadowrun into a tidy, defining, confining, ridiculous term as fitting a character class, they're stamping their feet and insisting everyone should be (to keep the D&D terms flowing) a multiclassed character.

I am amused.

Posted by: KiwiTroll Aug 7 2007, 07:16 AM

Only in so far as your wanting the matrix to revert to the hacking from the basement of older editions. At the moment a mundane hacker can be faster in AR than a technomancer without having to cripple his skills to do it. A technomancers resonance has a direct impact on his skills. Yes he can drop his resonance to get meat passes but meat passes just aren't the solution. Yes he can get sprites to hack for him but commanding them is still an action (which the TM is rapidly running short of if he's to do things like seek cover) If a TM is intended to excel in the matrix and it seems certain that he is, then this has to include the AR matrix as well. A TM in a wireless and mobile matrix should be able to employ the mobility of the matrix not just in the regular mundane environment but within the context of a run with bullets firing and IC pouring into their ears.

Perhaps a good analogy here would be if the Improved reflexes spell were only available to hermetics and not shamanics or if Hermetics could only astrally assence and not project. All other things being equal and wanting to enjoy the possibilities of the game wouldn't you choose the option that was more open than the option that was limited?

With all the discussion of cybered adepts and awakened with synaptic accelleration it seems that those who believe there is no issue would agree.

Posted by: NightmareX Aug 7 2007, 07:19 AM

QUOTE (Fuchs)

Maybe the question should be: Does every character need multiple IPs to survive a battle?

Not in 4th edition you don't.

Posted by: NightmareX Aug 7 2007, 07:26 AM

QUOTE (Gelare)

My apologies for jumping on you like that - I was ticked from arguing elsewhere on the 'net.

Regarding setting design vs game design I am (obviously

) of the opinion that the needs of setting design trump the needs of game design (within reason). Thus, I don't think it's unreasonable for technos to be gimped in this particular fashion due to the in setting explanation of such. However, in reference to my own game, I would not be adverse to an Echo that allows submerged technos to adapt bioware (and only bioware) to their systems over a period of time, thus alleviating the negative effect bioware implants have on their Resonance.

QUOTE

I really wish that they would release an entire sourcebook about the setting itself, along with all the things that get talked about on these boards that aren't mentioned in the rulebooks. I can't tell you how long it took me to find out that a Thor Shot platform was a satellite that dropped giant tungsten rods from space to kill things. Which, again, is another sweet piece of flavor.

Part of the problem there is that references such as this are spread out over three editions of source books and novels, hiding in little corners here and there. A "collection" source book would be nice though I agree - especially with all the new people.

QUOTE (Jaid)

it's about being able to hack from AR effectively.

This only matters by RAW, since I am of the opinion that everyone in AR is limited to one IP of Matrix action per turn. AR should never be superior to VR.

QUOTE (Whipstitch)

You guys must play in a world where all the LoneStar officers don't keep Jazz in the glove compartment.

Well, not all of them do

QUOTE (Whipstitch)

One houserule I thought I'd suggest: Let Overclocking give you an extra initiative pass when using AR that can only be used for matrix actions.

Hmm, I kinda like that

Posted by: Gelare Aug 7 2007, 01:11 PM

QUOTE (NightmareX)

My apologies for jumping on you like that - I was ticked from arguing elsewhere on the 'net.

No worries.

QUOTE

Regarding setting design vs game design I am (obviously

Well, I think we disagree there, then. Shadowrun does have an incredibly rich, flavorful setting that me and my players like a lot. But it is, first and foremost, a game, and I think more people would appreciate game balance than would appreciate a bit of extra fluff. Y'know, in my completely unfounded opinion. /shrug

QUOTE

However, in reference to my own game, I would not be adverse to an Echo that allows submerged technos to adapt bioware (and only bioware) to their systems over a period of time, thus alleviating the negative effect bioware implants have on their Resonance.

That would be a step in the right direction, although I still feel it would be charging Technomancers a lot extra for what they should have access to anyway. Besides, everyone knows Overclocking is the way to go for the first echo.

QUOTE

This only matters by RAW, since I am of the opinion that everyone in AR is limited to one IP of Matrix action per turn. AR should never be superior to VR.

That is a fix that I hadn't thought of, but it makes rather a bit of sense, as you're completely right, AR shouldn't be superior to VR. I reckon combining that with this:

QUOTE (Whipstitch)

One houserule I thought I'd suggest: Let Overclocking give you an extra initiative pass when using AR that can only be used for matrix actions.

Would patch things up well enough. Thanks for the advice.

Posted by: Buster Aug 7 2007, 02:07 PM

That actually makes sense by the rules too. You can control AR through a simsense interface, you don't have to use meat interfaces like AR gloves and goggles, therefore Overclocking should work on AR too. As long as the tm is controlling AR through his wireless magic, he should get his bonus from Overclocking.

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Aug 7 2007, 02:20 PM

While it makes sense, it essentially means that the TM has now 2 physical IPs, and shoots people twice as fast.

As the TM 'overclocked' his brain, this is perfectly plausible... but will add to the power creep.

Posted by: Gelare Aug 7 2007, 02:28 PM

It means that he shoots people twice as fast in fantasy game time, but he doesn't shoot people twice as fast as far as players are concerned, which is really what matters. He is still forced to use that second IP for AR work, so he can't actually fire any more shots than he could before. Wayyyyy less power creep than some of the stuff in Street Magic, and probably the other books, too.

Posted by: Whipstitch Aug 7 2007, 03:02 PM

QUOTE (Particle_Beam @ Aug 6 2007, 10:06 PM)

Actually, sometimes TMs need the soccer mom approach on the matrix too, because while they're sometimes better than a hacker, they're also more prone to stupidly bad luck because they need to risk fading to be worth a crap. You use the same damage track for the meatworld and your persona with technomancers, so it's amazing how quickly a pinch of bad luck and some niggling little wounds add up and ruin your day both on the 'trix AND meatside if you don't have someone playing Johnny on the spot with that medkit.

That's beside the point though. What my point is that you're being myopic when you keep saying all our complaints are just about combat. My issue is not that TMs, suck at meat combat I'm fine with that. What I take issue with is that their AR hacking is pitifully slow, which means that if you want to hack while on the move, you're either getting dragged around by the nearest guy with muscle augs or you should of made a hacker with wired reflexes. It's why I'm fond of the overclocking giving a Maxtrix-only initiative pass when using AR. You're still not as fast as you would be in hotsim, and you'd actually have to submerge a few times to match the Wired 2 hacker in AR initiative passes (and AR hackers still don't have to fear meat damage), so it's really more about improving a useful matrix skill than it is about making you a combat god. Being able to take a full dodge or sprint action or maybe even just a couple of hardware tests and then swapping your attention to AR and taking a matrix action in the same combat turn is hardly a gamebreaker; it's something wired hackers do all the fraggin' time. It's a great ability, and I'd like to see TMs get a chance to pay for it via Submersion rather than raping their resonance score. And it still wouldn't make them combat gods because they're still stuck with a single pass for meat combat at best.

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Aug 7 2007, 03:09 PM

QUOTE (Whipstitch)

It's why I'm fond of the overclocking giving an Maxtrix-only initiative pass when using AR.

Personally, I don't really like it at all. It will open a can of worms when things like Full Defense as interrupt action happens, or when defining the borders of 'AR only'...

A general additional IP doesn't cause such questions.

Posted by: Buster Aug 7 2007, 03:21 PM

The borders of AR are pretty clear, where's the confusion?

Posted by: Particle_Beam Aug 7 2007, 03:34 PM

QUOTE (Whipstitch)

...so it's really more about improving a useful matrix skill than it is about making you a combat god. Being able to take a full dodge or sprint action or maybe even just a couple of hardware tests and then swapping your attention to AR and taking a matrix action in the same combat turn is hardly a gamebreaker; it's something wired hackers do all the fraggin' time.

See? This is after all only about combat.

Posted by: PlatonicPimp Aug 7 2007, 04:09 PM

See, giving technomancers full access to adept powers and making them perfect shots is hardly game breaking, because other builds Do it all the time.

Similarly, arguing that giving them extra general IP isn't going to break the game because they have low physical stats and combat skills isn't an effective argument. You can make a technomancer with high physical stats and combat skills. Most don't, but there's nothing inherent to getting the technomancer quality than forces your physical stats lower, unlike the origional Otaku.

Now I don't like technomancers as written either. I don't like the whole human radio thing, and I don't like that people who have the power to interface with technology like no one else lose that when a little of that technology gets put in them. On the same level I don't want technomancer Sammies. So I use the following house rules:

1:Technomancers have a natural skinlink, one that works even on unmodified electronics. All they need to do is touch a machine to communicate with it, and if that machine has a radio, then they're hooked up to the matrix. Since even underware has RFID tags, you'd be hard pressed to find a technomancer without a radio signal in skinlink range. This replaces their signal rating.

2:Technomancers do not lose resonance to implants. They do, however, take double essence loss from all implants, as if they had sensitive system for both cyberware and bioware (and genetics, incidentally). This prevents a technomancer from totally loading out on cyber.

If you used house rule 2, you could get your technomancer some wired reflexes or synaptic link and get what you want.

Posted by: Whipstitch Aug 7 2007, 04:19 PM

QUOTE (Particle_Beam @ Aug 7 2007, 10:34 AM)

QUOTE (Whipstitch @ Aug 7 2007, 10:02 AM)

See? This is after all only about combat.

The combat turn, aka, 3 seconds is a pretty standard way of dealing with time in shadowrun, so no, it's not all about combat. Hell, breaking in on-the-fly uses an extended test with an interval of one initiative pass. Hackers with wires can bounce between matrix actions and meat tasks through AR much quicker than TMs can. You can keep being obstinate about it or you could acknowledge that in Shadowrun things are often time sensitive and there's lots of good reasons why just slumping over like a lump of meat isn't always a good idea. Sometimes you just need to hack something on the move, and TMs either do that slowly or periodically have to drop unconscious and hope nothing bad happens. It's not a huge deal, since the devs wisely made virtually all intervals combat turns rather than initiative passes, but I'd still like to see TMs have an option to use AR better through submersion rather than essence raping.

Posted by: Dizzman Aug 7 2007, 04:40 PM

I like Platonic Pimp's simple and easy house rule. Another one to consider is:

1. Technomancers do not lose resonance from bioware implants. Resonance loss from cyberware is calculated normally.

This option has the upside of giving the technomancer a range of IP and other boosts, but at a very high nuyen cost. It also makes a certain amount of sense from the fluff perspective. Whether the technomancer boost is a type of magical ability or a biologically based change - it makes sense that cyberware would reduce its effect more than bioware. Although I don't have Augmentation yet, I'm sure you could extend the benefit to geneware as well.

At character generation, even with 450 BP, it would be very hard for a character to get anything more than one or two levels of synaptic accelerator and maybe some muscle toner/aug. Hardly anything that would challenge a starting Street Sam who has access to much cheaper cyberware and the spare BP to spend on it.

On the downside, it requires an extra set of record keeping as the player has to keep track of bio and cyberware separately. Nothing to onerous for a house rule.

Posted by: Dizzman Aug 7 2007, 04:42 PM

Another idea for the house related above. It could also be a 10 point merit. In fact, I think that would be a great merit for the upcoming Runners Companion for 4th Edition.

Posted by: stable_sort Aug 7 2007, 04:45 PM

QUOTE (NightmareX)

QUOTE (Gelare)

QUOTE

As a new person, I'd like to ~~second~~third this suggestion.

<anecdote>Last session, our shaman asked me to describe Nadja Daviar's nipples and he stumped me. This was for a spell design, and I like to stick to canon, so I didn't houserule it. A setting book really should have cleared that up.</anecdote>

Posted by: WeaverMount Aug 7 2007, 05:12 PM

I actually really don't see the problem with leaving TMs AR a little gimped. If a TM has no damage, a threaded CF and a full compliment of sprites nothing in the RAW has can stop them but another TM. The only thing that keeps them from running ruff shod over the planet is that they get nickel and dimed to death doing anything. If they had a super effective way to play it safe that would make it nearly pointless to play an adept hacker and completely pointless to play a mundane hacker. I don't see the point in giving them a buff, so can COMPLETELY dominate.

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Aug 7 2007, 05:39 PM

I have no problem if the sole reason people wanted a reflex boost was to improve their AR abilities slighty -- a genuine oversight in the design process of the character type which should neither exist nor be a problem to house rule away.

My problem is with the people who wanted it in general even if they come in and try to claim otherwise. They want universal reflexes that work in the meat world as well as the Matrix so that they can be little gun bunnies mowing down the competition as well as Matrix hotshots. You can see them complaining about it in a few of the posts here, talking about how everyone else is magically unstoppable everywhere except them. Which is pure hogwash.

Posted by: Jaid Aug 7 2007, 05:39 PM

QUOTE (WeaverMount)

multiple IPs does nothing about the nickel and dime effect.

they are still just as vulnerable to matrix damage in AR as they are in VR. i suppose it protects them somewhat from black IC, but honestly, you should never be facing a system with access to black IC but not attack program anyways.

Posted by: Whipstitch Aug 7 2007, 06:01 PM

Yep. A hacker using AR is unaffected by Black Hammer and Blackout, but his Icon can still be crashed by Attack programs. In contrast, a technomancer takes damage whenever their Persona does, since they share the same damage track (IE, TM=Persona). You can kill a TM with just a simple Attack program regardless of how they're logged into the matrix. And there is still Fading to contend with.

Posted by: damaleon Aug 7 2007, 07:09 PM

If you look at it, what are the real benefits a Technomancer has compared to a hacker?

1. Can still connect to the Matrix if they take your commlink
2. Hot Sim without a sim module, modified or otherwise
3. 1 unregistered sprite, and (Charisma) registered sprites
4. Threading to raise complex forms above the 6 rating limit
5. No System/Response loss due to # of programs like a Hacker

Limits on Technomancers include:

1. At chargen in a 400 BP build, it is difficult to have a decent living persona and any combat ability (Bod 3/Agi 2/Rea 3/Cha 3/Int 5/Log 5/Wil 5) forcing a tradeoff of Matrix effectiveness for combat survivability. And don't forget that BOD limits the amount of armor you can wear without penalty (Armor and Encumberance, p 149 SR4), so dropping it to 2 means the best armor w/o penalty is armored clothing (4/0) or a leather jacket (2/2)
2. To have a decent set of complex forms, Resonance and sprites, expect to spend between 50 and 100 BP, this will reduce gear, skills, and contacts
3. Limited # of complex forms at chargen (Logic * 2) means for a decent bit of running, the TM will have to Thread forms to survive while hacking, reducing effectiveness and forcing fading tests
4. No Matrix Icon Damage Track
5. Do Hot Sim addiction rules still apply to Technomancers?

So a Technomancer is spending 60 BP (compared to a Hacker's 8-10BP commlink and programs) for access to sprites, no System/Response loss, Threading, and a huge vulnerability to basic attack programs (hacker's can just log out, reboot, Spoof their commcode and try again in under a minute, a TM needs to rest an hour to get rid of stun).

Personally, I wouldn't make a technomancer unless I had 450BP for chargen. At this point I would take the Resonance hit and get 1 point worth of Bioware, at least Synaptic Boosters 1 and Damage Compensators, or Syn. Boosters 2.

When I can make a hacker with similar a similar number of skills, more gear, better physical stats, higher edge, and more points left for contacts, why wouldn't I? So I don't have sprites, but I still have agents and even if they aren't as smart, they don't run out of services. The only true loses are threading and system/response limiting programs, but with extra IPs from bio/cyber, I can swap programs fairly quickly.

Anyone see something I missing?

Posted by: Spike Aug 7 2007, 07:55 PM

Damnit, I just had my SR4 book handy the other day, now that I need it...

...

See, I'm seeing something that just doesn't sound right to me. TM's DIE from attack programs? I know they can be crashed out of the matrix, but I either assumed (or read, I really can't say) that Attack programs only did stun to them?

Just like fading typically should only do stun to them (unless, you know, they get desperate and CHOSE to risk physical damage)... and the thing is, stun goes away pretty quick.

Now, since i could be the crack smoker here (Jazz huffer?), lets move to something less dependent upon RAW:

WTF stops the TM from dropping into VR for only short periods? You guys talk like once he slumps he's out for the rest of the run (being hauled around like sack of meat being the common depiction).

Also, what sort of creep is your GM being? Seriously, you got runners with wires and guns, and mages needing geeking, and the security guards are looking for the weedy dude slumped behind a desk passed the F*** out? TM's are rare, fluff wise, its not like that will be the natural instinct of a security guard.

'Hey, this guy is passed out. Must be a technomancer, better kack him now rather than worry about the 8 foot tall collection of muscle and razor blades leaping over the desk at me...'

Never mind that he's still not helpless then, drones or not. Smartlink systems are dead common, futzing up the IFF in it will buy time... never mind the sudden raise in 'threat priority' everyone's PAN suddenly gets when some murderous bastard desides that killing the helpless stoner is more fun that participating in the firefight.

A full breakdown of the major difference between sprite operated and pilot operated drones would take too long to really get into but here's a big one: Sprite don't need lists of 'if than' statements to operate effectively. Telling a sprite drone to 'protect my meat' is as simple as and effective as telling the sammy. Telling an agent pilot that technically requires lists of who to shoot, when to shoot and pray you thought of every contingency.

Of course, I'm sure most games are more lazy about it, but there are differences.

Posted by: Whipstitch Aug 7 2007, 08:09 PM

Hey, it's not like I'm saying TMs are utterly unplayable. There's ways to make VR manageable. But -having- to go into VR to have the passes to make real noise in matrix combat and always being vulnerable to at least stun damage kind of sucks. And actually, I was incorrect about the dying from attack programs. My memory is going, and I apologize. Apparently my group has overestimated that effect in the past. What actually happens is if your condition track gets filled up (and you always take stun like Spike said), you get immediately disconnected and your persona crashes. Sorry I threw people off.

Posted by: damaleon Aug 7 2007, 08:10 PM

When a TM is knocked unconscious (full stun track) his/her living persona crashes, knocking them off-line, whether an attack program or Blackout did the damage, though I haven't seen anything about Black IC being able to keep Technomancer online or not once unconscious. If it crashes no matter what, this may actually help TMs since Black Hammer would not be able to stop the crashing persona and damage wouldn't overflow into physical damage.

A hacker can loose his icon to attack IC and be back online in under a minute in most cases, a TM crashed needs medical attention or magical healing to be back on in anything less than an hour. Hacker's don't suffer dice pool penalties as far as I can tell if their icon is damaged by attack programs, only Black IC (since it's stun), but TMs take stun from Attack and therefore, die penalties for every 3 boxes of damage. I would call that a pretty big vulnerability.

That's how I read it at least.

Posted by: Spike Aug 7 2007, 08:15 PM

Stun and unconciousness alike: I suppose it depends on how you play your SR. Is it a micheal bay movie with big explosions and kinetic action sequences (you took out a helicopter... with a CAR)

Or is it more like and early James Bond flick, with lots of walking around talking to people, clever plans and nifty toys? The kind where you slump back in your office chair with the martini, pretend like you are just a little drunk while your magic brain steals the passcodes from the commlink of the Corp over at the baccarat table so you can hand it off to the bio-sammy so he do the meat portion of the run?

Posted by: neko128 Aug 7 2007, 10:29 PM

QUOTE (damaleon)

As near as I can tell, this is right; Technomancers are actually less vulnerable in some ways to black IC, because once their stun track is gone, they fall unconscious and fall offline, without the chance to lock them in and eat their brains.

Posted by: laughingowl Aug 8 2007, 12:47 AM

QUOTE (Gelare)

Ask your GM:

As a RAS override is possible to override the limp noddle for regular SIM, and VR is the natural state for a TM.

My GM interrerptutted that to mean:

1) TMs naturally can override.

2) As a 'natural' sense, much like dual-natured creatures TMs are not at penalties for being VR active, while doing physical things.

3) THe 'real world' is pretty much treated as a matric connection, meaning he TM can still only do something in any one connection at a time... but between phase could switch between them freely.

In our game anyways, treating a TM as a 'dual-natured' creature rather then an astral perceiving creature, followed existing game logic and seemed to work well.

There were a few issues, where the TM had to use the rules and purposely disconenct/shut down. but save for those times, the TM is ALWAYS active in VR, worked well gives them that edge of hackers, makes them noticably different/special gives some nice advantages and a few disadvantages.

Rules could be open to interperation.

Rules are very clear that if you us a sim module the default has an override to keep you from flopping around... yet TMs (doing it their way) dont use a SIM module... so they mantain control of their body. (whats doing the override).

The rules for penalties doing physical things (while VR active) or listed under the rules for overriding the sim module disconnet.... which if a TM isnt using wouldnt apply...

It may be far from universal acceptance.
But it is not against canon (based on interpertation).

Especially with a small group (and the possible need to help fill all roles') you might find you GM will follow the above.

It worked well in our games, but didnt seem to overpower the TM.

Who is still very weak 'physically' but not 100% completely helpess, or backed into a remote drone controller / sprite boss.

Posted by: NightmareX Aug 8 2007, 07:55 AM

QUOTE (Gelare)

Oh, I totally agree that technos are boned as the rules stands - l33t Matrix ninja they may be (in theory), they are worthless on the physical (and horrific karma sinks to boot). I originally houseruled that implants didn't effect their Resonance, but with the new fluff explanation in Emergence (that I am satisfied with btw), I can't see my way clear to doing that.

Personally, I think the karma costs for their Complex Forms could stand to be lowered (since they have a cap of Resonance), plus the Echoes/Echo changes already mentioned and the one AR pass per turn (for everyone except technos with Overclocking or AR Overclocking, which option one goes with) thing would go a long way to making them more viable. But then, no one in my group cares about them to date, so field testing this idea is a slight problem

QUOTE (Dizzman)

1. Technomancers do not lose resonance from bioware implants. Resonance loss from cyberware is calculated normally.

Hmm, I like it.

QUOTE (WeaverMount)

that would make it nearly pointless to play an adept hacker

IMO an adept hacker is an abomination.

Posted by: Cthulhudreams Aug 8 2007, 08:38 AM

Wouldn't cultured bioware be bad for a technomancer? Because it often seems to involve screwing with their nervous system - which is what gives them super powers.

Posted by: NightmareX Aug 8 2007, 09:52 AM

I'm thinking that (under this house rule) their system would adapt to it eventually. By RAW, yeah, it causes Resonance loss.

Posted by: Critias Aug 8 2007, 10:02 AM

Why doesn't anyone else's system adapt to bioware, given time, using that house rule?

Posted by: NightmareX Aug 8 2007, 10:31 AM

Truthfully? I dunno, haven't thought it out that far yet Note though that I'm just talking about bioware not impacting Resonance - it still has the normal Essence cost.

Posted by: Jaid Aug 8 2007, 04:48 PM

i don't see why cyber (especially certain kinds of cyber) couldn't be adapted.

i mean, we know the resonance realms exist in the matrix. now either there's a big fleshy blob somewhere acting as hosts for these realms, or they're hosted on the regular matrix.

if they can be hosted on the regular matrix, why not in a technomancer's cyber? (depending on the cyber, of course... dermal armor or bone plating no, but why not an implanted commlink, or any device which acts to interface man and machine?)

of course, that would involve GM discretion somewhere along the way, since there's no explicit mention of what devices would actually be attached to the matrix, and which are just RFID monitored... perhaps add it as an echo, that a TM could modify their cyber to not interfere with their resonance...

in any event, while i could see the explanation for losing signal when a technomancer replaces their body with cyber, i don't really see the need for them to lose resonance itself (because, like i said... resonance realms, and for that matter sprites and AIs, which also have resonance powers, all operate just fine without any assistance from biological material of any sort simply by using the regular matrix)

Posted by: NightmareX Aug 9 2007, 11:26 AM

QUOTE (Jaid)

i don't see why cyber (especially certain kinds of cyber) couldn't be adapted.

Well, for one I'm kinda equating receptivity/signal and Resonance (a quasi-erroneous association I know, but all I got at the moment to explain why they even loose Resonance in the first place). My basic thought is that the techno's body could in time adapt bioware to his "frequency" to maintain receptivity/signal (since both the techno and the bioware are both meat). Cyberware, on the other hand, doesn't have that possibility of growth and adaptation that flesh does.

My logic at the moment at least.

Posted by: Jaid Aug 9 2007, 04:02 PM

QUOTE (NightmareX)

QUOTE (Jaid @ Aug 8 2007, 11:48 AM)

i don't see why cyber (especially certain kinds of cyber) couldn't be adapted.

i don't see why the TM couldn't adapt cyberware to be resonance based, still. sprites are resonance based, and they don't have a signal rating at all.

not saying they should (though i don't think it would unbalance things) i'm just saying that it's at least as logical that a technomancer (who, after all, specialises in manipulating the matrix/machines) would be able to manipulate their cyberware as that they could manipulate their bioware.