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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Is Surgery an Open Test?

Posted by: Talia Invierno Aug 6 2007, 05:03 PM

QUOTE (Frank Trollman)

Additionally, each Surgery Test made is treated as an open-ended Success Test. The target number for this is called the Surgical Threshold. The base Threshold is the test's target number.

I suggest that a derived or modified TN is still a TN. Open tests do not have TNs. The description of an Open Test in both Shadowbeat and the BBB is quite clear on that point.

"Open-ended" means nowhere near the same as "open", whether in an SR context or outside it. Within the SR context, it most commonly is used to indicate that the number of successes is not capped by such pesky things as Force or the surgeon's skill level.

This would make Surgery an open-ended test yes, but not an Open Test.

(Also makes an interesting point, complexity-wise, that counting backwards toward a threshold has been re-introduced in the cyber/bio Essence hole rules: but that is a subject for another thread.)

[An edit out, per moderator request.]

Posted by: Kagetenshi Aug 6 2007, 05:11 PM

I don't have my books with me, but to the best of my memory and from the information presented, calling Surgery an Open Test is thoroughly incorrect.

~J

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Aug 6 2007, 05:21 PM

QUOTE (Talia)

Bull: did you lock the other thread solely to keep Frank from having to admit he might be wrong? for the first time ever

You're kidding right? Stop baiting Frank.

Posted by: FrankTrollman Aug 6 2007, 05:24 PM

OK, BBB, page 39:

QUOTE (SR3 @ p. 39)

When making an Open Test, a player rolls a number of dice equal to the skill rating or Attribute she is using for the test. The player then discards all but the highest single die result. The Rule of Six applies to Open Tests.

Right? That's how Open Tests work. And that's also how Surgery works for purposes of calculating what options you can get based on the surgical threshold modifier for each option.

The fact that you separately have a Target Number for your success test which is also limittig you and also based off the same skill roll is just part of why that was a confusing system.

---

I honestly don't know what you're trying to prove. The Surgery test utilized the "count successes" model of a success test and also used the "count the highest die" model of an Open Test. And it told you straight up that it did so and that it was treated as a success test and an open test.

-Frank

Posted by: Talia Invierno Aug 6 2007, 06:42 PM

fistandantilus3.0:

Why is it baiting to ask whether Surgery is or isn't an Open Test? It's a perfectly legitimate question -- and the answer has relevance within SR3, quite independently of other considerations.

Are you saying that this question shouldn't be asked, or that I shouldn't be the one asking this question?

Posted by: Ravor Aug 6 2007, 06:50 PM

*blinks and then laughs helplessly*

Oh yeah, surely fistandantilus3.0 had to be referring to the question itself and not the jab that he actually quoted.

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Aug 6 2007, 06:53 PM

The question it's self is still relevant, that's a given.

QUOTE

admit he might be wrong? for the first time ever

This is baiting. The thread was closed in the in the first place to keep this from escallating between the two of you. The problem is that you are attacking Frank here, rather than debating the issue. Debate the issue, not the person.

The second issue is that the thread was closed for a reason, then you immediately reopened it immediately. This is explicitly against the guidelines.

Posted by: Talia Invierno Aug 6 2007, 07:02 PM

Whether or not it's the honest truth, I'll edit that part out of the first post.

Edit: done.

And now can we get back to the question?

Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Aug 6 2007, 07:21 PM

If I remember the quote in the locked thread (no I will not open a book for this argument), the test is referred to as an open ended success test. It clearly has the words 'open' and 'test' meaning it is a kind of open test, but it also has the term 'success test' meaning it is a kind of success test. Therefore, it's a freakish hybrid, like broccoflower, and is best not given much consideration except when playing SR-CoC.

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Aug 6 2007, 07:39 PM

QUOTE

Whether or not it's the honest truth

This is an example of baiting a user. A debate consists of people presenting conflicting ideas not attacking other people.

Talia will be taking two days off. Feel free to continue rules debate, without the sniping please.

Posted by: Kyleigh Wester Aug 6 2007, 09:50 PM

It doesn't seem like an open test to me, it has a TN right? I don't see whats so complex about it. Open tests have no TN, this has a TN, it's not an open test

Posted by: FrankTrollman Aug 6 2007, 09:50 PM

QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm)

Heh I totally sympathize. Here's the quote:

QUOTE (Man & Machine @ p. 144)

Additionally, each Surgery Test made is treated as an open-ended Success Test. The target number for this is called the Surgical Threshold. The base Threshold is the test's target number. Count down the Procedural List, marking off options achieved by successes. Surgical options can modify the Threshold as options are reached on the Procedural List. Apply any Threshold modifiers; all such modifiers are cumulative. If the high result of the Surgical Test does not meet the modified Threshold, that option is not achieved, nor are any further down the list, even if there are successes remaining.

So yeah, your broccoflower analogy is pretty apt, as it follows both these rules:

QUOTE

And the regular success test rules. And it's limited by whichever one you do worse on by its own weird criteria. That's why Delta Clinics install Betaware and call it Delta Ware. Implanting Beta instead of Delta reduces the Target Number of the Success Test by 5 and reduces the minimum threshold by 5 as well. Reducing the Essence cost of a Beta implant to equal that of a Delta implant added 2 to the requisite number of successes on the success test and required you to beat the threshold by 4 (which is still less than 5).

So if you needed 3 success at a TN of 9 to implant Delta ware with no problems, you would need 5 successes at a TN of 4 and at least 1 die that hit an Open Test resolution value of 8 to install Betaware that was just as good.

-Frank

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Aug 6 2007, 10:45 PM

It explodes my brain that whomever wrote a lot of the cannon rules obviously did not rigorously playtest.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Aug 6 2007, 11:56 PM

What's wrong with them? 20D, SS, good range…

~J

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Aug 7 2007, 12:52 AM

...is that AV or Naval Damage?