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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Liam O'Conner

Posted by: Dizzman Aug 7 2007, 03:54 AM

I was rereading the old Tir na Nog book for a character history. I was wondering if anyone knows what happened to Liam O'Conner after he left to walk the final path?

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Aug 7 2007, 04:40 AM

He got there.

I always had the impression that Lady Brane Deigh (sp?) had him offed.

Posted by: Ophis Aug 7 2007, 08:36 PM

He went out... Sort of like Halo Jones.

Posted by: Dizzman Aug 7 2007, 10:53 PM

It sounds so anti-climatic that he just wanders off somewhere after founding a nation. I figured there must be a backstory in some random Shadowrun novel somewhere that I hadn't read.

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Aug 7 2007, 11:08 PM

I think it's purposefully anit-climatic. After all, if youd just offed your significant other, in order to set up your own little Behind the Scenes Ruling a Nation court, off of a religion that you basically helped him to make up (again, since the Path of the Wheel was originally made up by the first IEs), would you want to draw a lot of attention to him/her now that he's gone, and you're off his/her coat tails? No, it's much easier to just say that "he(she) has ascended to the Citadel of the Shining Ones, and you can too if you just follow our caste system!"

Posted by: Ancient History Aug 7 2007, 11:25 PM

Old Elves Retirement Community, Tampa, Florida, CAS. Or maybe Brane was traditional and sealed him in a tree or a cave.

Posted by: Lazarus Aug 8 2007, 11:33 AM

Atlantis. That's my guess.

Posted by: MK Ultra Aug 8 2007, 06:00 PM

He or some other elf using his name turns up in one of the older novels (Nosferatu I think) IIRC, but I didn´t read it myself.

Posted by: Kayos Frawg Aug 13 2007, 04:20 PM

I thought that he was still kicking about, just with a new name. IIRC it was insinuated somewhere that Liam O'Connor was just person he made up to found the elven nation and he's moved on to his next ident. But I can't be sure where I read this, sorry I'll look.

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Aug 13 2007, 04:33 PM

That sounds more like Ehran and his previous identity.

Posted by: Kayos Frawg Aug 13 2007, 04:39 PM

whoops, I thought I might have been getting mixed up. Yeah pretty darn sure it was ehran I was thinking of.

Posted by: MITJA3000+ Aug 13 2007, 07:59 PM

QUOTE (Kayos Frawg)

whoops, I thought I might have been getting mixed up. Yeah pretty darn sure it was ehran I was thinking of.

Not a big mistake, considering THEY ARE THE SAME PERSON, or rather, Ehran was Liam. Puts the Aztlan-file in a whole new perspective, EH?

Posted by: Ophis Aug 13 2007, 08:09 PM

Ehran was not Liam, they were both active at the same time. Walter Brightwater(I think) was Ehran's previous identity. If they were the same person the Tirs would get on better.

Posted by: Dizzman Aug 14 2007, 05:58 AM

I didn't think Ehran and Liam were the same since both were busy founding their respective nations at the time. Although both have similarities: elves with little prior history, hiding their elfness, and founding nations using already existing rebel movements.

One would have thought Liam was a IE as well, but I can't find any indication of it in the books I have.

Posted by: Dizzman Aug 14 2007, 06:09 AM

The only plausible alter ego for Liam I can think of is Harlequin. He isn't doing anything of note during the founding of Tir Na Nog - and would probably want to counter anything Ehran was doing at the time.

However, nation building doesn't seem like his M.O. Neither does working "under cover", which Liam did while he was pretending to be a human IRA member.

Still, a fun possibility that he helped set up a new elven nation to spite Ehran, got married and then got bored and left.

Anyone know Earthdawn? I know the two elven nations are supposed to be mirrors of the elven nations in Earthdawn. It would be interesting to see if Ehran was allied with one and Harlequin the other.

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Aug 14 2007, 07:24 AM

Harlequin was a Knight of Shoshara, and then an ambassador to Blood Wood. Mostly just to fuck with Alachia.

Posted by: Ophis Aug 14 2007, 08:07 AM

Harlequin was a knoght of the Crimson Spire (from Shosara).

The to elven nations the Tir's mimic are Bloodwood (more particularly the elven court) in Tir Na Nog, most notably with the Queen's power and the Paths stuff; and Thera, in the form of Tir Tairngire, it even has the same rule for foreign employees as Thera had (before it became slavery). This of course explains why they hate each other, also at least one Blood elf has switched sides (Aithne Oakforest) though he has now left politics (yeah right).

Posted by: MITJA3000+ Aug 14 2007, 09:43 AM

Well, I don't think that the fact that Ehran was busy with Tir Tairngire means that he couldn't have been Liam founding Tir Na Nog at the same time. Maybe he wanted TWO nations instead of one. Better chance of succeeding, right? And if he only did make up one nation, why would he leave it so easily? That's right, even though his project in North America failed, he still had his other nation over in Europe.

Posted by: Ophis Aug 14 2007, 11:50 AM

Actually Ehran left the Tir to run the DIMR, which he probably saw as a more stable position of power. He also from his comments in Portfolio of a Dragon had something of a change of heart about how to influence the world.

The elf with fingers in both pies is Alachia, who was a prince of Tir Tairngire and had a large influence over Brane Deigh, the Seelie queen of Tir Na Nog.

I personally suspect that Ehran is on of the powers behind the First Govenor of Thera. One of the Heavenheads.

Posted by: treehugger Aug 14 2007, 05:24 PM

First governor of Thera ?
In Shadowrun ?
Who ? Where ? When ?

I know i might be totaly off, but i really thought that Shadowrun's Therans where the Black Lodge ... Else, who the hell are they and where do they take their powers from ?

Brane Deigh is probably Alachia's Daughter, who's the father then ?(Who would have the balls to have some fun with Alachia ?)
Harlequin = Liam O'Connor ? maybe, but i'd rather see him as an Unseelie.

Posted by: Ophis Aug 14 2007, 06:29 PM

The Black Lodge are run by a spirit that came through during the middle ages. Synner has hinted at the spirit being the Outcast one of EDs Great Dragons.

Posted by: Ancient History Aug 14 2007, 06:47 PM

QUOTE

Harlequin was a knoght of the Crimson Spire (from Shosara).

http://ancientfiles.dumpshock.com/Immortals.htm#41 Shosara != Sereatha.

QUOTE

The to elven nations the Tir's mimic are Bloodwood (more particularly the elven court) in Tir Na Nog, most notably with the Queen's power and the Paths stuff; and Thera, in the form of Tir Tairngire, it even has the same rule for foreign employees as Thera had (before it became slavery). This of course explains why they hate each other, also at least one Blood elf has switched sides (Aithne Oakforest) though he has now left politics (yeah right).

QUOTE

I know i might be totaly off, but i really thought that Shadowrun's Therans where the Black Lodge ... Else, who the hell are they and where do they take their powers from ?

The standing evidence points against the Black Lodge being descended from the Therans.

QUOTE

Brane Deigh is probably Alachia's Daughter, who's the father then ?(Who would have the balls to have some fun with Alachia ?)

Alachia gets around, but there's no indication that Lady Brane Deigh is her daughter - unlike Jenna Ni'Fairra.

Posted by: Ophis Aug 14 2007, 07:10 PM

QUOTE (Ancient History)

QUOTE

Harlequin was a knoght of the Crimson Spire (from Shosara).

http://ancientfiles.dumpshock.com/Immortals.htm#41 Shosara != Sereatha.

Sorry may bad, been awhile since I read my ED

QUOTE (Ancient History)

QUOTE (Ophis)

I said Thera!!! Look right there in the bit I typed up there ^^^

Posted by: Ancient History Aug 14 2007, 07:11 PM

Well Tír Tairngire isn't Thera either, so there.

Posted by: MITJA3000+ Aug 14 2007, 07:35 PM

QUOTE (Ancient History)

This is a common misconception. While there exists a strong argument that Tír na nÓg houses the reincarnation of the Elven Court, there is virtually no evidence that Tír Tairngire is the Sixth World equivalent of Shosara.

Alachia gets around, but there's no indication that Lady Brane Deigh is her daughter - unlike Jenna Ni'Fairra.

Ah, I haven't read any of the novels, has it really been stated that Jenna is Alachia's daughter? I always thought that she was Alachia herself. Perhaps you could referate the text for us, your fans?

And while you're at it, did the Elven Court of ED have the same kind of "pixie"-court like Tir Na Nog supposedly has?

Or did you mean that the spirits n stuff that make up the Seelies are actually those of the elves? Yes, I know this is a long shot.

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Aug 14 2007, 07:43 PM

QUOTE (Ancient History)

QUOTE

Harlequin was a knoght of the Crimson Spire (from Shosara).

http://ancientfiles.dumpshock.com/Immortals.htm#41 Shosara != Sereatha.

My mistake. I always get those two mixed up.

Posted by: Ancient History Aug 14 2007, 07:53 PM

QUOTE

Ah, I haven't read any of the novels, has it really been stated that Jenna is Alachia's daughter? I always thought that she was Alachia herself. Perhaps you could referate the text for us, your fans?

It's been a point of contention in the past. The only source to have both Jenna Ni'Fairra and Alachia is the novel Worlds Without End, where Jenna is described as Alachia's daughter. However, comparison of the sourcebooks Blood Wood and Tir Tairngire show that the coloring of the two elves differs significantly, though there still exists room for confusion because of the timing (it appears Jenna may have reigned before Alachia) and Harlequin's comment toward Jenna ("[...]our dear, sweet Blood Queen").

QUOTE

The Elven Court of Blood Wood claimed authority over the Windlings (equivalent to SR Sprites in most cases; the Windlings basically ignored the court) and had dealings with the Fae. The Seelie Court of Tír na nÓg has resumed (at least in part) these dealings with the Faerie races. It's unclear if Alachia is actually a member of the Seelie Court as she was the Elven Court, but it seems likely given her coaching of Lady Brane Deigh. As far as actual physical reincarnation goes...well, the Tír elves would probably like to claim that, but who can prove it?

Posted by: Ophis Aug 14 2007, 08:12 PM

QUOTE (Ancient History)

QUOTE

Ah, I haven't read any of the novels, has it really been stated that Jenna is Alachia's daughter? I always thought that she was Alachia herself. Perhaps you could referate the text for us, your fans?

I always thought that comment was about the subject of a painting Jenna owned that bore some family resemblance to her, I always thought the picture was Alachia.

AH what do you think to the Alachia being Falia (the previous but one Elven Queen), and faking the being eaten by Alamais?

Posted by: Ancient History Aug 14 2007, 11:07 PM

I'd lay good money on Failla being Alachia, but she wasn't the one eaten by a dragon - that was Dallia.

Posted by: NightmareX Aug 15 2007, 11:51 AM

QUOTE (Ophis)

The Black Lodge are run by a spirit that came through during the middle ages. Synner has hinted at the spirit being the Outcast one of EDs Great Dragons.

Whaaaaat? I must have really missed something here. Where is that from? And maybe a link to Synner's comment?

Posted by: treehugger Aug 16 2007, 08:29 AM

I'd really be interested too

Besides who is that Outcast Dragon ? (any SR or ED material to point me at ?)
My theory about one of the Black Lodge plots was that they where behind Universal Omnitech, and with Project Infinity trying to use find the IE's immortality secret and achieve immortality themselves.
It would have made sense if they where humans trying to take over the world, but if there is a Dragon behind them, i dont see why he'd like his pawns to become immortal and thus a threat.

Regarding Thera in SR, who could be trying or willing to reform Thera ? or at least claim inheritance ?
Erhan is certainly a strong advocate of Thera (his declaration of an antique golden age with Thera being the power).
The Atlantean Fondation is also looking actively for Theran artifacts, but since some hints suggests that it his ran by one of Alachia's avatars, i dont think she would like a Theran resurgence (unless of course she's leading it ^^)

Posted by: MITJA3000+ Aug 16 2007, 09:25 AM

Outcast = Denairastas?

By the way, what happened to his kids?

Posted by: treehugger Aug 16 2007, 12:09 PM

QUOTE (MITJA3000+)

Outcast = Denairastas?

By the way, what happened to his kids?

Denairastas is the Dragon behind the T'srangs ?

Posted by: Ophis Aug 16 2007, 03:18 PM

No the rulers of Iopos are actually half dragons.

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Aug 17 2007, 12:17 AM

QUOTE (Ancient History)

I'd lay good money on Failla being Alachia, but she wasn't the one eaten by a dragon - that was Dallia.

Honestlly, I'd put even money on her being the next three queens.

QUOTE (Ophis)

Whaaaaat? I must have really missed something here. Where is that from? And maybe a link to Synner's comment?

I'd talked with Synner a year or two back about a Black Lodge game and he mentioned that, and then was nice enough to explain it at great length via PM. At his request though I didn't say anything about it until. Well I guess about a year ago when it came up in a thread, and he asked if I still had it and could post it.

Anyway, short story long, I'll still do. Will dredge it out of my inbox in a sec. It's neat stuff. Not 'official' mind, but very cool. Also explains a lot of the motivations behind the Lodge being so anti-dragon/IE.

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Aug 17 2007, 12:19 AM

QUOTE (Synner)

I thought you might appreciate the following. This section was cut from the Game Info section of Loose Alliances on the Vigilia. It remains unpublished and hence unofficial. I'm not sure I'll be able to revisit the Vigilia anytime soon so here's a peak at what I was thinking.

BLACK SECRET
One exception to the Vigilia's rule of absolute secrecy is the Black Lodge, for the Lodge and the Vigilia share a secret history. Unbeknownst to anyone outside the order, the Lodge's founders were once the caretakers of one of the original Aquinae Vaults. Some time during the Middle Ages, a brief mana spike released something caged within one of the relics under the Vault's care. An ancient spirit was unleashed and insane from millennia of captivity went on a vengeful rampage, ravaging the abbey it was kept under, killing many of its Black Monks (Cistercians, yep that's where Black Lodge comes from) and Templar guardians. However, having depleted its energies, the entity was forced to take refuge in one of the survivors by possessing him and merging their minds as the spike began to ebb.
During convalescence the man became privy to flashes of insight, memories of a secret history of the world. Visions of an Age when the remnant spirit had been a rebel, a Prometheus who had challenged the immortal powers that had then ruled the world and had been brought low and chained for eternity. The monk dreamt that those powers had also survived into this world and were destined to one day return. Other survivors found enough confirmation of his visions in documents and relics at the Vault that they decided to take the revelations to Rome.
When the Pope held audience and allowed the survivors to speak, the weakened spirit attempted to reveal itself to the Pontiff to warn him of the impending danger. The Pope hadn't realized this was a case of possession and ordered his guards to detain the possessed man and those brethren that had been exposed to him ? so that the Inquisition and the Vigilia could perform an exorcism. The Papal Guard was unprepared for even the weakened spirit and his nigh-invulnerable host. Killing several guards, the man escaped using the spirit's power to influence his brethren to flee with him. The escape cost the spirit much of its remaining energies and it fell dormant for centuries. The fugitives returned to the Melk vault ahead of their pursuers and took everything they could, convinced that given time Rome would understand the true danger? meanwhile someone must prepare for the war that would follow the return of the Immortals.
Instead the Vatican ordered the traitors hunted down, the Vigilia betrayed obliged bringing all its power to bear. The purges that spelled the end of the original Knights Templar are well known, the inquisition of many Cistercians less so. Despite the efforts the Possessed and his brethren escaped with the help of friends in the regular clergy? escaped to plan the future, the spirit's essence keeping him alive to become known as the Penultimate Master of the Black Lodge.

cheers,
Peter Taylor
aka Synner

QUOTE (Synner)

It had been suggested in canon that the Lodge had an antimetahuman bias but most particularly an anti-elven one. So I ran with that. I never particularly liked the original writeup of the Lodge in Threats, like Winternight it was two dimensional and bordered on the unbelievable because it was just so cliched. Mike and his French crew took that concept and whipped into a much more realistic idea in SoE - while staying true to the original. When I got round to developing the Vigilia, I just thought the tie-in was not only obvious, it was the sort of thing that makes the whole SR setting coherent (sort of like bringing back Spinrad and tying his dissappearance to Lofwyr and Mina Beloit)

Stuff like the fact that Melk was a Cistercian (aka "Black Monks") monastery was just a coincidental bonus.

As to who or what the spirit is... a while back, AH suggested that the Penultimate Master was the last of the ED Denairastas. I really liked the idea, since it explained the bias (above) and why the Lodge was out to seize control of the world (because it doesn't want the IEs and particularly the GDs to), but as is often the case with me I thought it was too linear and contrived - a renegade human imortal surviving into the present like the IEs and the dragons. It needed a twist. So the Denairastas lost and the rebel's soul was caged for all eternity in punishment...

Note this is all only one possible reading and unofficial, and in this case would continue to be since no such name dropping would ever happen in SR canon - I just thought you'd appreciate the tie-in.

As to the spirit's demeanour and motivation - he's probably more than a little paranoid and insane for being locked up in an artifact for 7000 years, not that he wasn't already slightly the megalomaniac (an inherited trait I'd say). His grasp of the past isn't as good as he thinks it is and he's prone to being overly cautious when it comes to dragons and the Church. He's got something of a Messiah complex.

Yep, and you're right regarding b). The host body isn't naturally magical.

- Peter Taylor

PS: Check out the Name of the Rose movie anyway (after you've read the novel) since it is rather good (though it lacks Eco's ramblig depth and diatribes) and should provide some very cool visuals to frame the Vigilia material in Loose Alliances (specially towards the end).

If you think that was low key, you should see what Otaku Mike did with MoleSkin.

Really, it sucks that the writers can't get some place to put up the cuts. Like say,hmm, Holostreets maybe?

Posted by: MITJA3000+ Aug 17 2007, 07:48 AM

All hail Fisty and Synner! No, seriously, thanks. That was sweet.

On a related note but still hopelessly off topic, if Denairastas' kids were dragonkin, shouldn't they be immortal like the elves of Alamais'? Or, did they get OBLITERATED in ED?

Posted by: treehugger Aug 17 2007, 07:52 AM

Wow fist that's nice of you posting that stuff
Very interesting ...
I havent read Loose alliance, what is the Vigilia refering too ?

One thing bothers me : how can the spirit be the last Denairastas ? I mean a spirit is a spirit, a name-giver as another matter.
I dont know much about ED, what happened to Denairastas ? the Dragon. I've checked through the net, it seems the Denairastas Clan is some kind of degenerated/consanguinous line from the Dragon Denairastas.
Why would a cross breeding between a human and a Dragon would be different from a Dragon and an Elf ? (the IEs are sons and daughters of Alamaise no ?)

Posted by: NightmareX Aug 17 2007, 04:41 PM

Thank you very, very much Fistandantilus (and Synner!) - that was freaking awesome! I always liked the Black Lodge, but like Synner thought they were a bit bland (damn good work btw Synner, damn good!).

Treehugger - I don't have an issue with the Melk spirit being a Denairastas remnant. After all, Spirits of Man can easily be interpeted as ghosts or ancestor spirits, and Dunklezahn survived death to become Lethe

Posted by: Ophis Aug 17 2007, 04:53 PM

It does seem to be a common event that when great dragons die and leave a spirit, that can be bound in someway before it vanishes.

Dunklezahn - lethe
Vasdanjas - when his body hits the ground it releases a spirit that devestates the surrounding troops (Barsaive at War)
Yuichotl(AH feel free to correct the name) - Bound as a spirit companion by Icewing(Ghostwalker).

Oh gods, just had a horrid thought. Ghostwalker came through at the same time as the Shedim. He returned to a body waiting for him in Denver, how do we know he's not gone shedim...

Posted by: Kagetenshi Aug 17 2007, 05:07 PM

He's too evil to be with the shedim.

~J

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Aug 17 2007, 05:53 PM

Normally I'd say start another topic, but the Original Questino seems to be answered as best as it can.

QUOTE

First off, i'm just the messenger guys. And a bit of a packrat at that since those PMs are something like two years old. So heap any praise that's due Synner's way.

AFAIK, there's nothing published dealing with the downfall of Denairastas yet. Most of the published Living Room Games material deals with setting their group up as a serious power moving against Barsaive in general and the dragons in particular.

As for the Clan's life expectancy, as opposed to elves, i'd guess two things. Guess, mind you.

Firstly, it's been hinted that the original Immortal Elves are more than just dragon kin, as there are other dragon kin that aren't immortal. Some dragon ritual to make their chosen servants stronger and more durable/lasting I would think.

Second, if you're factoring in lifespans, compare huma nto elven. If you meet somewherei nthe middle after adding a bit of dragon longevity, you're going to have the elve kin live longer. IIRC, the head of the D-Clan is pretty damn long lived for a human.