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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ SR4 Shadowtalk

Posted by: Dashifen Aug 7 2007, 09:37 PM

I noticed Frosty (aka Jane Foster) in Augmentation, but I've not seen some of the more notable VIPs in the setting since the edition change over. Notable by their absence are the dragons and Harlequin, who if nothing else was good for a sarcastic comment now and then.

I always got a perverse pleasure out of seeing the dragons and immortal elves posted on Shadowland. Have they not be invited onto Jackpoint (yet) or is their lack of posting due to some other reason?

Posted by: Jaid Aug 7 2007, 09:50 PM

on the shadowrun website, a while back, they had a list of 'canon' NPCs so to speak.

basically, it was a list of posters at jackpoint, really, so a lot of the old crowd sorta disappeared, and we don't really know what happened in a lot of cases...

for example "something" has happened to dragonslayer. don't know what. but something happened.

Posted by: Wakshaani Aug 7 2007, 10:39 PM

The leadnig theory is that Dragonslaver got et. Possibly by Hestaby. Fatima seems to be teh one taking up the anti-dragon banner since then, or, at least, the cloest thing to it on Jackpoint.

Teh Laughing Man still has a login, however. Which, really, is pretty dang interesting in and of itself.

Posted by: Ancient History Aug 7 2007, 11:23 PM

JackPoint isn't an "open forum" like the old Shadowland nodes. Strictly invitation-only.

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Aug 7 2007, 11:31 PM

QUOTE (Wakshaani)

Teh Laughing Man still has a login, however.

Where?

Posted by: neko128 Aug 8 2007, 12:47 AM

Immoral elves?

Are we sure you didn't mean "immortal"?

I suppose it could go either way.

Posted by: hobgoblin Aug 8 2007, 01:46 AM

QUOTE (neko128)

Immoral elves?

Are we sure you didn't mean "immortal"?

I suppose it could go either way.

more like amoral...

Posted by: Dashifen Aug 8 2007, 02:09 PM

Freudian ..... perhaps

Posted by: Bull Aug 8 2007, 05:25 PM

Honestly, outside of the first couple times that they posted... It was just silly. It came down to a (lame) running joke of Harlequin being an ass and Orange Queen calling him on it.

The thing is, they don;t need to post to Shadowland, they don;t need to read Shadowland, and they have no reason to care about Shadowland. They're friggin' great dragons and immortal elves. At best, they have people to do that sort of thing for them.

Plus, i think that was one of the (many) things that was taking the "Street level" aspect away from the game. Between adventures were you go up against all powerful AI's and get involved with the games of Great Dragons and this sort of thing... <shrug> That's fine for some games, and maybe as the culmination of a long running campaign, but for a "normal" SR game... Not so much.

I'm really liking the current format myself. I like the static core of posters. Just a couple books in, and we're already seeing rivalries and arguments between some of Jackpoint's users, and getting to know a few of them. The stuff with Netcat and Clockwork was a lot of fun in Emergence, and it was nice to see that rear up again a couple times in Augmentation.

And hey, we still have Frosty, Fastjack, and Smiling Bandit, plus a few other names taht have been around forever.

Bull

Posted by: hobgoblin Aug 8 2007, 05:53 PM

hell, who needs the "jester" tossing comments around when one have slamm-o running wild?

Posted by: Dashifen Aug 8 2007, 06:41 PM

I like this new format, too, especially the fueds (e.g., Netcat vs. Clockwork) that are cropping up, but I'd also like some posts from the other powers in the world. For example, I think there are those in the world who would have been able to comment on the information in the Cybermancy portion of Aug. specifically the information relating to Africa.

*shrugs* YMMV

Posted by: FrankTrollman Aug 8 2007, 07:31 PM

QUOTE (Dashifen)

What we can do in 4th edition is have the commented sections be written by other characters in the world. So while Wordsmyth is not a Jackpoint poster, people can put up something from Ehran the Scribe for commentary by Jackpoint.

What this means is that if you want, for example, your own character in a Shadowrun book, he has to either write something that Jackpoint posters are commenting on or be a character in one of the intro fiction chapters. I had my little fun with this - my personal player character is also in Augmentation - he's the unconscious man at the beginning of Advanced Medtech. A parody of Mary-Sueage as it were.

-Frank

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Aug 8 2007, 07:41 PM

You've got one messed up Mary- Sue- zombie.

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Aug 8 2007, 10:06 PM

QUOTE (Bull)

The thing is, they don;t need to post to Shadowland, they don;t need to read Shadowland, and they have no reason to care about Shadowland.

Nobody needs to post to Shadowland or read it. But it can be fun. And, honestly... who does a Great Dragon talk to? He got no friends, literarily. Oh, and the 'care' stuff... 'Aztlan' showed they do. And in the neo-Anarchist setting of former SR, it made quite some sense to steer those in the shadows.
Really, there are bigger gripes in publications than named characters spreading paranoia.

The new ST format is nice, but that does not mean the old one was bad. Personally, I'm a bit bored by Jackpoint - but that's just me.

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Aug 8 2007, 10:13 PM

QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)

Personally, I'm a bit bored by Jackpoint - but that's just me.

I'm sure it's not. I miss the busy traffic, and even in many cases "pointless" posts. It may just be a simple matter of missing the old personalities, and resenting their lack that keeps me from enjoying the Jackpoint crew as much. But I still liked Shadowland better.

My understanding is that it was done to make things easier on the writers, both to have a more consistent pool of names, and to avoid contradictory statements with the same 'personality'. Still, I liked the old format better.

Glad it's not just me.

Posted by: Pendaric Aug 8 2007, 10:21 PM

I like the 'pointless posts' that throw plot ideas left right and centre in the old SR£ ST. Not quite as prolific anymore.

Posted by: Fortune Aug 8 2007, 10:21 PM

QUOTE (FrankTrollman)

... Mary-Sueage ...

That's just ... perfect!

Posted by: Fortune Aug 8 2007, 10:29 PM

While I agree that the Shadowland format was a bit better, I am very glad to see Shadowtalk return to the Core rulebooks after its absence in SR3.

I don't think it would have hurt to throw in a post or two from the more familiar Powers-that-be to stir the pot a little though. Nor do I think it would do any harm to continue the tradition of 'throwing bones' to loyal (or at least vocal and/or unabashed) customers/devotees by including the odd random post by their namesake character(s).

Posted by: Ancient History Aug 8 2007, 11:40 PM

The problem with the Shadowland format, especially for the last couple of third edition books, is that things went insane. Each book was adding a minimum of fifty posters, most of whom piped in for a single maybe-useful comment and then were never seen again (guilty of that myself). Of the few posters that did stick around, it was extremely difficult to keep track of their individual personalities, backgrounds, and specialties.

I like the IEs and GDs and even USPs (Unidentifiable Shadow Posters), but even they were getting way over-used by the end. You know what I think of when I remember IEs and GDs posting? The Street Samurai Catalog, Tir Tairngire and Aztlan.

In the SSC, Dunkelzahn posting wasn't just a big deal-it was truly shocking. In TT, the occasional comments by The Big 'D' and The Laughing Man were more than enoughto set everybody's conspiracy-meter off. Azt, by comparison, was like a 13-year old getting their first porn mag. People just keep wanting to pour over it, again and again.

See, IEs and GDs and USPs work best in moderation, saving up the really big, juicy stuff for the truly important moments. Adds more emphasis, adds more tension. Let's the readers know "oh Hell, this is gonna be great!"

Now, that's not to say JackPoint doesn't have its drawbacks. For one, you have a limited "pool" of players, which can be frustrating for writers and readers alike - how exactly does this poster know this information? Is it even accurate, or are they talking out of their ass? What do I know about this poster from their past behavior? The idea of an unreliable annotator isn't new, but it means some people that missed a book and pick up the next one might miss out on certain sundry details. Case in point, Emergence has some significant character development for several shadowposters that people who skip the book will miss.

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Aug 8 2007, 11:50 PM

QUOTE (Ancient History @ Aug 9 2007, 01:40 AM)

The problem with the Shadowland format, especially for the last couple of third edition books, is that things went insane.

Yeah, I really liked that creative chaos. The buzz made the book somehow... come alive.
Somehow, reading Jackpoint feels like watching a TV series to me - those have a tendency of turning into soap operas.

As a sidenote: A network of trusted users is something that works well IRL, but given the weak cryptography in SR4, I'm not certain how well it works...

Posted by: hobgoblin Aug 9 2007, 12:32 AM

please, dont start that one again...

Posted by: Wakshaani Aug 9 2007, 03:10 AM

Emergence does?

Dangitall.

Still staking out my local game store for my copy.

*stalk stalk stalk*

Posted by: Blade Aug 9 2007, 08:11 AM

Actually I think jackpoint may be a bit short of a few posters, or maybe needs to have some posters post more often because right now it feels like the Jackpoint community is no more than 10 people.
And even if there are some good and funny shadowtalk, I think it boils down too much to :

QUOTE

"blahblah something"
> I also heard that something is true
> Poster1

> I don't think it is .
> Poster2

in a very simple way to show that it's up to the GM to decide.

While the "fluff" shadowtalk tend too much to be like this:

QUOTE

"blahblahblah man-machine merge blahblah."
> It's bad!
> Shamanguy

> No, it's good
> Streetsamurai

with the occasional additional:

QUOTE

>That's because you're stupid
> Shamanguy

>No you are
>Streetsamurai

>Calm down
>Papa Fastjack

I miss some of the good old shadowtalk, such as street samurais commenting their favorite toys SSC style.

By the way:

QUOTE

>As a sidenote: A network of trusted users is something that works well IRL, but given the weak cryptography in SR4, I'm not certain how well it works...
>Rotbart van Dainig

>please, dont start that one again...
>hobgoblin

Looks like something out of a Shadowtalk!

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Aug 10 2007, 03:18 AM

I always hated the immortal elves and dragons on shadowland. I just think of my dad near a computer, then I try to visualize someone from the time where the wheel was a novelty and I just don't accept them there. They should be insecure and befuddled by virtually everything on the matrix, getting into hidden nodes should be beyond them. The there immortal they can do anything thing just doesn't jive with me.

Posted by: Ancient History Aug 10 2007, 03:20 AM

Why do you think that just because people were more primitive they were any less intelligent?

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Aug 10 2007, 03:28 AM

QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist)

They're infinitely old, eternally youthful, and have had over a century to adjust to the technological age. It would be ridiculous to assume they were grossly incompetent. Even Fastjack is an old man, yet he's still likely one of the best hackers in the Sixth World.

Age has nothing to do with it. A desire to learn does, and immortals like Dunkelzahn and Harlequinn had that desire. Especially since technology is effectively the new magic, and all of them are very involved and fascinated in that particular field.

Posted by: Jaid Aug 10 2007, 03:42 AM

QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist)

let's suppose you're a pretty good decker.

dunkelzahn offers you 50,000

to get him into shadowlands. you gonna tell him no?

so sure, he may or may not know the matrix, but he's:

1) incredibly rich... one great dragon is known to have resources at least as impressive as that of a megacorp. we know that because he *owns* the megacorp. and i would be very surprised to hear that lowfyr didn't keep some things separate from that megacorp.

2) incredibly smart. smart enough to know that he doesn't know everything, but also smart enough to know he can delegate.

3) incredibly manipulative. sure, he may not know how to program your VCR, but he makes a social adept look incompetent (granted, the tech may have changed, but people are still largely the same)

4) a powerful mage. the kind that takes tarantula's cheesy ritual group and busts out reflecting metamagic to send it back to them with their ridiculous dice pool. the kind that knows metamagic techniques that you haven't even dreamed existed, and that can summon spirits that would kill the average magician without breaking a sweat.

so sure, maybe dunkelzahn, or harlequin, or other 4th world holdovers don't know much about the tech (although i should think that being there when all the tech was developed would give the immortal elves at least a pretty good handle on it), but they *do* have plenty of skills that are useful in the sixth world, and plenty of resources to back up those skills. more to the point, they've had plenty of time to adapt to that tech. the 6th world began in 2011, right? that means they've had something like 40 years to get a basic understanding of technology since they've awakened by the time shadowrun as a setting is begun, iirc (it is 2050, isn't it?). 60 years by the time you get to SR4.

and sure, your dad may not be so good on a computer (heck, my dad has a hard time with e-mail sometimes). but, on the other hand, i also have a grandfather who understands how to use a CD/DVD burner, and is transferring his entire video library to DVDs. i know people my dad's age who are fully competent with technology of the modern world in general. being old does not automatically mean you fall behind the times. the people who fall behind the times are the ones who don't make an effort to keep up with them, generally speaking.

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Aug 10 2007, 03:54 AM

Dunk had Jane-In-The-Box. Hestaby has her pet otaku. Harlequin has years of boredom.

Posted by: FrankTrollman Aug 10 2007, 03:56 AM

QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)

Dunk had Jane-In-The-Box. Hestaby has her pet otaku. Harlequin has years of boredom.

"I've got a sea urchin."
"I've got a pair of glasses."

-Frank

Posted by: Draconis Aug 10 2007, 08:27 AM

Dragons are allowed to post wherever and whenever they like.
But really who has the time?

Posted by: MITJA3000+ Aug 10 2007, 08:27 AM

I really do miss the immortals, just because of the little hints they gave about that metaplot. But, at the same time, it was REALLY silly that they would post to Shadowland. Like, for what reason? Shouldn't they be scheming and manipulating all the time? And while Shadowland was bigger than Jackpoint, it wasn't that big. If their posts were a part of some grand scheme, wouldn't they be better of posting somewhere where it actually can make a difference. And then there was Cyberpirates...oijoijoijoi....

I also liked Shadowland way more than Jackpoint. I understand that it makes the writer's part a little simpler and easier, but still, Shadowland probably had hundreds or thousands of readers, right? So it actually made sense for the stories to be written and posted there, they reached a relatively big crowd. Jackpoint, on the other hand has, what, 20-30 readers? Who aren't necessarily the closest friends or even know each other? Well, mayde FastJack pays a lot of cred for the stories, but somehow that doesn't fit the image..

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Aug 10 2007, 08:43 AM

Harlequinn and Frosty being there made a bit of sense since they regularly worked directly or indirectly within the shadows, so it's as much their subculture as it was any one else in the shadows. Immortals known for enjoying the Matrix (Hestaby, Celdwyr, etc.) were pretty acceptable as well.

But immortals such as Dunkelzahn or Ehran? Not quite so much. Sure, they occasionally dabbled from time to time, but not to the extent of those above. And not nearly enough to justify spending that much time online babbling in comments on Shadowland. Running multiple megacorporations, ruling a country or two, running for president, masterminding a Machiavellian will, hosting a top rated media show, and lecturing around the world sort of doesn't leave much time for such relatively trivial concerns...

Posted by: Demonseed Elite Aug 10 2007, 01:23 PM

I'm not totally sold on Jackpoint yet, but I agree with AH that in SR3, Shadowland's use of big plot characters was getting stupid. Having those infamous characters pipe in just to bicker inanely with each other on Shadowland not only made little sense, it made the characters themselves less significant.

It's worth keeping in mind that books like Aztlan were not done in the typical format. It wasn't immortals posting on Shadowland, it was a big file-dump put together by immortals that was handed over to Shadowland. Tir Tairngire, while in the traditional format, was also a big file-dump from a mysterious personality tossed to Shadowland, which was enough to attract immortals to Shadowland.

If a file similar to the Aztlan file were put together by the immortals again, there's nothing that would prevent it from finding its way to Jackpoint.

I think there's a lot more work that should be done on Jackpoint, but it's definitely easier to work on something that starts out small and manageable than it is to get your arms around something as messy as Shadowland was.

Posted by: hobgoblin Aug 10 2007, 01:25 PM

@doctor funkenstein:
except when their mere presence can trigger something?

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Aug 10 2007, 01:57 PM

QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)

Running multiple megacorporations, ruling a country or two, running for president, masterminding a Machiavellian will, hosting a top rated media show, and lecturing around the world sort of doesn't leave much time for such relatively trivial concerns...

But they all did that before. For a long time. Just the daily grind.

Posted by: Fuchs Aug 10 2007, 02:54 PM

I don't like those posters (Elves and Dragons). Too flashy, too stupid. In my campaign (Provided I'd use such characters in the uber-way they are presented), they would not post in such nodes, they'd have some lackeys post, lackeys who do not know they were manipulated into posting.

Those posts did not look like coming from ancient uber-powerful immortals and dragons, but some immature teenage posers. I'd assume runners would not believe them to be from those characters ("No way, the elven lord does not sound like a whiny emo kid, that's a fake") or lose all respect ("This is what is claiming to rule the planet, folks? I've seen more impressive reasoning and behaviour in school.").

Posted by: Particle_Beam Aug 10 2007, 03:13 PM

Then again, some people do behave differently when on the internet.

Posted by: Ophis Aug 10 2007, 03:35 PM

and Harlequin is supposed to be an arsehole. An arsehole who wants to blow the lid on whats going on, but would be killed if he attempted a big reveal all move. So he pisses around on the matrix dropping hints.

Posted by: Fuchs Aug 10 2007, 04:12 PM

That is more likely "Would be killed if he revealed all". I doubt Harlequin, at least if keeping with the "they are so smart and powerful, those immortal elves" stuff, could be prevented from revealing that stuff.

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Aug 10 2007, 05:48 PM

Well, assuming the Wyrm Talk short write up by Tom Dowd is considered canon (can be found on http://ancientfiles.dumpshock.com/index.html), Dunk was the one that wanted to tell all, and Harlequin was willing to go quite a ways to stop him.

QUOTE

"I do too," Harlequin replied, looking down at his papers. "He's the most reasonable of them all. It'll be a shame when we have to destroy him."

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Aug 11 2007, 02:04 AM

QUOTE (Ancient History)

Why do you think that just because people were more primitive they were any less intelligent?

It has nothing to do with intelligence, just that its unusual for someone to stay up with the times. Its rare for people to keep up with technology now and were talking a human lifespan of tech. For someone to keep up with 10,000 years of tech advances that were somewhat slow, then all of a sudden keep up with the absurdly rapid advance of computers should even be rarer. Heck having the drive to keep up with the slow advances of 10,000 years is unrealistic.

When it was one or two of them in shadowland I didn't have much of a problem, but it eventually seemed like every known immortal was on top of the matrix.

Posted by: Particle_Beam Aug 11 2007, 02:46 AM

Well, using the matrix shouldn't be that much a problem for the Immortal Elves and the Great Dragons, in the end.

It's only that they started to behave like little quarrelling children instead of the mysterious and aloof beings of the fourth world that is somehow diminishing the supposed awe they should inspire, and became more and more drama children. Also, the fact that quite every one of them ended particularely on Shadowland was somehow quite strange.

Possible, but really strange. Also, the amount of information that the Immortals and the Greater beings have spread on Shadowland alone would make it that every Megacorp would know quite everything about these beings, and couldn't nor shouldn't they ever be surprised anymore. After all, the corps were also keeping an eye on Shadowland too, wasn't it so?

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Aug 11 2007, 04:38 PM

QUOTE (Particle_Beam)

I wouldn't mind them using the matrix. I can accept that level of adaptability. Maybe I just saw shadowland differently, but it seemed to me that to get on shadowland you not only had to know how to use the matrix, you had to be fairly tech savvy about the matrix, and on top of matrix shadow trends. I'd assume you would need both a decent computer skill but also some matrix etiquette skills to find it or heck even to know it exists.

I can accept others getting them there or those posts being done by either proxies or pranksters and in any game I ran they were. But that wasn't my take on how it was portrayed in the books.

Posted by: hobgoblin Aug 11 2007, 05:10 PM

iirc dunk had a decker do the heavy duty stuff and just piggy backed in using a tortoise terminal or something like that.

most likely the rest did something similar. if there is one thing one can build ut when one live for ages and/or have lots of cash, its contacts. and all those contacts surely knows someone that can help.

Posted by: knasser Aug 11 2007, 08:31 PM

There was a conversation between Harlequin and another (I have a William Blake reference in my head for some reason) in one of the books that revealed a very substantial understanding of the Matrix by the Laughing Man. But then Harlequin has always been the great exception and anyone who has mastered the intricacies of hermetic magic (or any conceptual model of mana, metaplanes and the astral) to the degree that Harlequin has, should be able to plug in just about any symbol system and learn how to manipulate it in record time.

I am, for the most part, in the camp that says an intelligent immortal will be able to pick up the technology very quickly. There are couple of reasons for this. One is that if they were the sort of individuals that got stuck in their ways and ceased to learn new things, then they would never have survived to see the industrial revolution, let alone 2070. To make it through the centuries they would have to keep a flexible mind to deal with changing cultures, values, faces and allegiances. It isn't just technology that changes. Anyone that got overly immersed in a particular social class, nationality or philosophy, would soon fall by the wayside. Secondly, they would have the advantage of seeing the whole development of the technology. Someone who saw laser printers when they were first released will probably have learnt how they worked - it was new and it was interesting and people asked about it. Now, people grow up with them and often never think about it. Someone with an extended lifespan has a vastly expanded context on which to draw to support their understanding of anything new that comes along.

All that said, I can't see most of them posting on anything remotely resembling a public forum. Though the image of Lofwyr sadly looking at his MySpace profile to see that he still has (0) friends is amusing, it's just not going to fit in with his aims.

Posted by: Ophis Aug 11 2007, 08:32 PM

My understanding of it was that Dunk piggybacked by using a variant of dragonspeech to ride Jane-in-the-Box's mind.

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Aug 11 2007, 08:33 PM

QUOTE (knasser)

[...] and learn how to manipulate it in record time.

He knows computer tech from the very beginning... no record time, on the contrary.

Posted by: Demonseed Elite Aug 11 2007, 09:32 PM

QUOTE (knasser)

All that said, I can't see most of them posting on anything remotely resembling a public forum. Though the image of Lofwyr sadly looking at his MySpace profile to see that he still has (0) friends is amusing, it's just not going to fit in with his aims.

I gotta say, that image does make me smile.

Posted by: hobgoblin Aug 11 2007, 10:10 PM

QUOTE (knasser)

your thinking of the one at the start of VR2.0. its one of my favorites.

AH has it up on the site, with annotations.

Posted by: hyzmarca Aug 11 2007, 10:38 PM

What exactly is there for immortals to do other than treat the world like a giant Risk board and bicker inanely with each other on the internet?

Posted by: Particle_Beam Aug 11 2007, 10:43 PM

Commiting suicide, because the last 3000 years were more than terribly boring, with no magic around, so that they shouldn't even have survived till the begin of the sixth world.

Posted by: neko128 Aug 11 2007, 11:43 PM

QUOTE (hobgoblin)

QUOTE (knasser @ Aug 11 2007, 09:31 PM)

your thinking of the one at the start of VR2.0. its one of my favorites.

AH has it up on the site, with annotations.

As a side note, there's this comment at the end:

>>>>>[I know what you mean. I know, better than most, what is coming this time. But there has never been anything like the Matrix before. How this new cosmos will combine with the powers of the old, I don't know. Maybe the wall between them will stay up, maybe it won't. Right now it seems solid but next year? Or next decade? Even we can't begin to guess.]<<<<<
-Laughing Man (??

?/12-24-56)

I find it interesting that wasn't commented relative to AR after the big Crash. I mean, post-crash, the wall between the worlds has most definitely come down...

Posted by: knasser Aug 11 2007, 11:49 PM

QUOTE (hyzmarca)

What exactly is there for immortals to do other than treat the world like a giant Risk board and bicker inanely with each other on the internet?

In the case of Harlequin (my favourite immortal), cultivate a sense of the sardonic to superhuman levels as a means of preserving his sanity through the ages.

In the case of Ehran the Scribe, revise one's memoirs (he's still only currently on volume three, he's that fussy). More seriously, he fights an unwinnable war to bring about culture and learning and elven supremacy. Which also gives H. someone to mess with if the strain of the millenia gets too much on occasion.

In the case of the dragons, just bask in the astral sunshine for as long as the mana is up and occasionally squabble over territory - they come from reptile stock, after all. If any life form is prepared for whiling away the centuries, it's them.

As to the other immortal elves, there aren't that many of them (may seem it at times). We can guess that there may have been more and that these are the ones that didn't get killed in the intervening millenia. I think they must all be characters with very strong drives and goals to maintain who they are over all that time.

Posted by: MITJA3000+ Aug 12 2007, 11:11 AM

QUOTE (hyzmarca)

What exactly is there for immortals to do other than treat the world like a giant Risk board and bicker inanely with each other on the internet?

Get totally, absolutely, utterly wasted.

Posted by: Dashifen Aug 12 2007, 02:47 PM

I don't think I'd want to meet a great dragon whose inhibitions are lowered

Posted by: Ancient History Aug 12 2007, 02:50 PM

Well, Damon will probably cut back on the sauce by the time he hits that time of life, so you shouldn't have too much to worry about.

Posted by: knasser Aug 12 2007, 03:17 PM

QUOTE (Dashifen @ Aug 12 2007, 02:47 PM)

I don't think I'd want to meet a great dragon whose inhibitions are lowered

<slurred German accent>"Go-onn... pull my talon..."</slurred German accent>

*sound of flame eruption and scream of PC*

"Heh heh heh! Hic!"

Posted by: hobgoblin Aug 12 2007, 03:34 PM

oh the horror...

Posted by: NightmareX Aug 13 2007, 07:21 AM

QUOTE (Particle_Beam)

It's only that they started to behave like little quarrelling children instead of the mysterious and aloof beings of the fourth world that is somehow diminishing the supposed awe they should inspire, and became more and more drama children. Also, the fact that quite every one of them ended particularely on Shadowland was somehow quite strange.

IMO, quarreling children is exactly what interactions between such beings would be like. Look at the Greek gods or modern vampire fiction. When that level of power and longevity is reached, IMO megalomania is virtually unavoidable - especially when there's only a couple dozen odd beings in the world that come even close to understanding your frame of reference. After all, we're talking about beings that couldn't come together and play nicely to even talk about an impending threat to all life on the planet - they had to be conned into doing it (ie Aztlan sourcebook). These are egos of unbelievable proportions - of course they're going to act like pre-school prima donnas.

Posted by: Fuchs Aug 13 2007, 07:46 AM

Which kind of makes it a bit unrealistic that they are still powerful. In my campaign, any such immature immortals would be flattened by the megacorps without much effort if they acted up. The only ones that matter are those who play the corp game, which means Lofwyr mainly - the immortal elves, if they even are immortal in my campaign, are pawns, not players, left behind by the modern world and its conventions.

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Aug 13 2007, 02:23 PM

Actually, that would apply only to dragons and spirits... the other immortals were around the whole time just fine.

Posted by: neko128 Aug 13 2007, 04:58 PM

To second Rotbart's comment; I don't understand why so many people seem to think the Immortal Elves would be afraid of technology; they're all incredibly intelligent, adaptable (by necessity) people who have been alive for the entire industrialization of the planet. Take a look at Leonardo/Brightlight; certainly noone can argue he's on the wrong end of the technology curve.

There's no reason at all to assume they're out of touch. If anything, in my mind, the centuries they've been through and the massive changes they've seen would prepare them more for the steamrolling pace of technology than your average suburbanite; I mean, they've seen far more technologies come and go than you or I. Why wouldn't they be more adaptable, having realized just how short-lived most paradigms really are?

Posted by: bibliophile20 Aug 13 2007, 05:22 PM

And there's one other advantage that they had when it came to learning the advanced stuff:

Time to really soak up the basics.

I have a friend who is an engineering major; he thinks, at the rate we're advancing, we're going to have to start teaching calculus in high school, if not junior high or middle school.

But they were around for those discoveries and had plenty of time to learn and integrate them into their understanding and knowledge. It's one thing to have a year to learn all there is to calculus and then have to rush off to the next stage of more advanced math--it's quite another to have a decade to learn it all and study all of it's implications and then leisurely make one's way over to the next mathematical or scientific discovery.

Posted by: Jaid Aug 13 2007, 05:52 PM

QUOTE (bibliophile20)

I have a friend who is an engineering major; he thinks, at the rate we're advancing, we're going to have to start teaching calculus in high school, if not junior high or middle school.

i dunno what they've been teaching in your high schools, but mine included a calculus course. it wasn't required, but it was available, just as a standard class across the entire schoolboard. (probably across the province)

Posted by: TheOneRonin Aug 13 2007, 08:17 PM

I graduated in 93, and Calculus was an available elective for Seniors. What I think Bibliophile20 is saying is that it won't be long before one is required to take and pass calculus in order to graduate high school.

Posted by: hobgoblin Aug 13 2007, 08:25 PM

so we may have hit a point where the total knowledge is to much for any single person to absorb in a lifetime? that we may need to being specializing from a very early age?

Posted by: knasser Aug 13 2007, 08:29 PM

QUOTE (bibliophile20)

And there's one other advantage that they had when it came to learning the advanced stuff:

Time to really soak up the basics.

This is a really important point. I've taught mathematics to children, and it's crucially important that they learn each step, because you can only really understand the next bit if you've understood the parts before. This is why so many people think they're bad at maths, as opposed to finding History or English or any other "non-sequential" subject much easier.

We should make a distincition between immortals like Harlequinn, who probably loved the invention of the motorcar and spent happy weeks taking apart Model T Fords and putting them together again, and those like the great dragons who simply woke up one day to see all these little metal boxes whizzing around without horses. Not that I think dragons wouldn't adapt very, very quickly, but the non-sleeping immortals would likely have an edge.

Posted by: hobgoblin Aug 13 2007, 08:32 PM

somehow i have a feel that a dragon reading up on stuff would be like data from star trek. always telling the computers to display the information faster...

Posted by: hyzmarca Aug 13 2007, 08:33 PM

The IEs are master manipulators and schemers. They never show their real faces to the mortals around them. However, the other immortals know then so well that they can simply let their hair down and be themselves, this is very freeing, but also very dangerous. The know each other well enough to hate each other. In general, there are enough rivalries between the IEs that a physical gathering would probably result in bloodshed. So they snipe at each other over the matrix because they are, at the same time, best friends and worst enemas. The anonymity of the screen give them an extra layer of protection.

Posted by: knasser Aug 13 2007, 08:33 PM

QUOTE (hobgoblin)

so we may have hit a point where the total knowledge is to much for any single person to absorb in a lifetime? that we may need to being specializing from a very early age?

I don't think we're even close to that. And we can lengthen the human lifespan, anyway. But we may well be hitting the point where society needs to adjust its view on what constitutes a reasonable length of time for education. Specialisation is distinctly not the answer. The UK government is nudging schools toward more vocational training. It's a deeply, deeply misguided policy. Teach someone maths? Yes - eternally useful and can be applied to any relevant technology. Give someone a qualification in Excel? Oooh - that'll be useful. >:-[

Posted by: hobgoblin Aug 13 2007, 08:38 PM

QUOTE (knasser)

QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Aug 13 2007, 08:25 PM)

so we may have hit a point where the total knowledge is to much for any single person to absorb in a lifetime? that we may need to being specializing from a very early age?

true that. teach someone how to use photoshop and he will be a adobe customer until he dies.

teach him the theories behind digital image creation and manipulation and he should be able to use any program that does the job.

problem is that teaching theory takes longer then teaching "click here, here here, type some numbers, hit enter and take a coffee while it computes".

short term workforce goals are more important in our competitive capitalist world then long term understanding is.

what the system "needs" is a whole lot of trained monkeys and a human supervisor that can pick up when the "programmed" responses fail.

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Aug 13 2007, 09:14 PM

That's why Microsoft donates software to students.

Posted by: Fortune Aug 13 2007, 10:17 PM

There's a commercial over here in Oz (concrete, irrefutable evidence, I know ) that states that today's 8 year old has been exposed to more information than our grandfathers were in their entire lives.

Makes you stop and think.

Posted by: fool Aug 13 2007, 10:17 PM

QUOTE

let's suppose you're a pretty good decker.

dunkelzahn offers you 50,000 to get him into shadowlands. you gonna tell him no?

so sure, he may or may not know the matrix, but he's:

dead
[QUOTE]I really do miss the immortals, just because of the little hints they gave about that metaplot. But, at the same time, it was REALLY silly that they would post to Shadowland. Like, for what reason? Shouldn't they be scheming and manipulating all the time?[QUOTE]
what better way to manipulate the shadows than spreading the info you want spread?

Posted by: hobgoblin Aug 13 2007, 10:56 PM

QUOTE (Fortune @ Aug 13 2007, 11:17 PM)

There's a commercial over here in Oz (concrete, irrefutable evidence, I know

) that states that today's 8 year old has been exposed to more information than our grandfathers were in their entire lives.

Makes you stop and think.

not impossible.

its also a greater variation of information. and lets not forget disinformation...

it just dawned on me that most recent discoveries are done when information cross barriers of "education". i recently heard about a geologist that could refute a archaeological "fact".

hell, i have experienced that when you stare at a problem to long, it becomes unsolvable. one have to take a step back and look at a different way of solving it...

it may also be that we dont have to know everything, we just need to understand how to ask good questions

or in other words, how to formulate good search parameters...

Posted by: bibliophile20 Aug 14 2007, 12:49 AM

QUOTE (TheOneRonin)

Bingo, which means that I would be in trouble (try as I might, I can't wrap my head around all the finicky little details of calculus, and I've got the remedial class scores to prove it).

But, yeah, his exact comment was "Today, we start teaching people calculus in late high school or in college. The way things are going, in fifty years we're going to have to start teaching them precalc by the time they're ten."

And as for the point, knasser's got it to a tee; while people have a hard time keeping up with the rate of progress, it's for a simple reason: they simply don't have the training to understand it all, nor do they have the time or energy to commit to be able to get that training. But, when you've had decades and centuries to work it all out and integrate the knowledge...

Posted by: Fuchs Aug 14 2007, 07:36 AM

QUOTE (neko128)

Take a look at Leonardo/Brightlight; certainly noone can argue he's on the wrong end of the technology curve.

Leonardo is actually the best example for why the immortal elves are just a bunch of idiots: He could hack all 7 megacorps' mainframes at the same time, yet was so utterly, unbelievably dumb as to use this incredible feat to try to blackmail them for the - paltry - sum of 20 billions, instead of simply taking that amount of money from various sources and using his incredible skills to hide the operation?

Yeah, right.

Sorry, I know I'll offend all the elf fanboys, but the manner in which those elves are protrayed simply does not make me take them seriously. They do act much more stupid than most shadowrunners, and seem to rely on GM fiat and railroading much more than actual skill or smarts.

So, in my campaign, immortal elves are small bit players next to the megacorps, if I had them.

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Aug 14 2007, 07:49 AM

QUOTE (Fuchs)

Leonardo is actually the best example for why the immortal elves are just a bunch of idiots:

No, that just proves that brilliant scientists sometimes aren't that clever when it comes to simple things. Newsflash.

Posted by: Fuchs Aug 14 2007, 08:08 AM

There's "not that clever" and there is "How stupid are you? And all your helpers? Even rocks are smarter than that!".

As long as the immortal elves are portrayed as teenagers with superpowers I won't use them. They are simply not believably written.

Posted by: Wakshaani Aug 14 2007, 02:00 PM

We try not to talk about Leonardo. That was a Dark Time, he's gone now, and the game's better for it.

Kinda like Quicksilver from Imago.

Shadowrun's own Clone Saga.

Posted by: Fortune Aug 14 2007, 03:32 PM

QUOTE (Wakshaani)

... he's gone now ...

Keep thinking that.

Posted by: hobgoblin Aug 14 2007, 04:10 PM

err, was he in the game, or was he a character from the novels?

often the novels seems to play fast and loose when it came to what can and cant be done...

Posted by: neko128 Aug 14 2007, 04:18 PM

QUOTE (hobgoblin)

err, was he in the game, or was he a character from the novels?

often the novels seems to play fast and loose when it came to what can and cant be done...

He was a character in a novel, but at the very least he's also been referred to in the various Shadowtalk commentaries.

Posted by: darthmord Aug 14 2007, 05:29 PM

QUOTE (bibliophile20)

QUOTE (TheOneRonin @ Aug 13 2007, 04:17 PM)

The same thing was evident in Stargate: SG-1 when SG-1 met the Tollan.

Narim & Sam had a conversation about the Tollan making their own Stargate. When asked about it, Narim told her that it was a simple thing for them to do and understand.

It turned out that the Tollan teach Quantum Mechanics to 3rd graders.

Then again, the history of the Tollan was such that they suffered no "dark ages" like Earth had. As such, they were 800 to 1000 years more advanced.

Posted by: hobgoblin Aug 14 2007, 05:33 PM

QUOTE (neko128)

QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Aug 14 2007, 11:10 AM)

err, was he in the game, or was he a character from the novels?

often the novels seems to play fast and loose when it came to what can and cant be done...

He was a character in a novel, but at the very least he's also been referred to in the various Shadowtalk commentaries.

ye crap...

Posted by: hyzmarca Aug 14 2007, 06:06 PM

QUOTE (darthmord @ Aug 14 2007, 12:29 PM)

QUOTE (bibliophile20 @ Aug 13 2007, 08:49 PM)

QUOTE (TheOneRonin @ Aug 13 2007, 04:17 PM)

And this is the point where, in Stargate message boards, I get up on my soapbox and tell everyone that there is no such thing as linear technological advance, particularly with respect to time.

Technological advancement, generally speaking, fits a need-fulfillment-exploitation model. A need is identified, someone invents a novel way to fulfill that need, and someone develops novel ways to exploit the new invention.

If an invention does not fulfill an existing need, it will fall by the wayside of history. The available needs that an invention might fulfill are limited by the culture in which that invention is developed.

A good example is the steam engine. The steam engine was invented sometime between 10 AD and 70AD be a fellow known as Hero of Alexandria.
But what, you say; the steam engine was invented by Thomas Newcomen and Thomas Savery in 1717. Yes, it was. It was also invented by Taqi al-Din of the Ottoman Empire in the 16th Century AD and by Giovanni Branca in 1629.

But, inventing the steam engine and starting the Industrial Revolution are to completely different things. Without a socioeconomic need for the steam engine, it will fade into obscurity. Globe-spanning Naval Empires just happen to have that socioeconomic need in a way that single-continent empires just don't have.

Black Madonna, the big Leonardo novel, is basically The Da Vinci Code with substantially less suckage.

Posted by: Ancient History Aug 14 2007, 06:15 PM

QUOTE (hyzmarca)

Black Madonna, the big Leonardo novel, is basically The Da Vinci Code with substantially less suckage.

Quoted for truth. Imagine what it says about an author when a game novel is at least as well 'researched' and much better written than their blockbuster.

Posted by: darthmord Aug 14 2007, 06:49 PM

hyz, I understand where you are coming from. I was just commenting / agreeing with the idea (mentioned earlier using Calculus as the example) that over time, the more advanced things of today become the basics of tomorrow and that such was exampled in Stargate: SG-1.

I wasn't commenting on how practical / sensible the presentation was in Stargate.