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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Bioware As Genetech
Posted by: Zen Shooter01 Aug 8 2007, 05:24 AM
I could swear I saw a rule somewhere that bioware systems could be converted to genetech systems by adjusting the nuyen cost. Did I hallucinate? Can anyone give me the page reference? I think it was in AUG.
Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Aug 8 2007, 09:55 AM
p. 93, Transgenetic Alteration, Animal Features.
However: No grades...
Posted by: Cthulhudreams Aug 8 2007, 10:00 AM
What blocks grades?
Edit oh right I see, bottom of page 87.
Edit2: Hey, does anything stop a street sammie from getting synaptic booster III at char gen for 10 points by buying Genetic Heritage?
Posted by: Dancer Aug 8 2007, 10:16 AM
| QUOTE (Cthulhudreams) |
| Edit2: Hey, does anything stop a street sammie from getting synaptic booster III at char gen for 10 points by buying Genetic Heritage? |
Yes, his GM wielding the BBB like a mallet.
Posted by: Cthulhudreams Aug 8 2007, 10:23 AM
| QUOTE (Dancer) | ||
Yes, his GM wielding the BBB like a mallet. |
The hilariousness of this image is high. However, lets replace synaptic booster 3 with, say, superthyriod gland. Which is giving you a mere 30k free and a extra 8 points of availability
Not so bad?
Posted by: Buster Aug 8 2007, 12:30 PM
| QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Aug 8 2007, 05:00 AM) |
| Hey, does anything stop a street sammie from getting synaptic booster III at char gen for 10 points by buying Genetic Heritage? |
Yes, the Availability 12 cap for chargen. Synaptic booster 2 is ok though. Genetic Heritage is a fantastic discount program. It's nice to have good parents who think ahead.
Posted by: Zen Shooter01 Aug 8 2007, 12:32 PM
Uh, prides of Messiahs on a raft. That's a significant rule tucked into a hard to find place.
Posted by: Buster Aug 8 2007, 12:41 PM
| QUOTE (Buster @ Aug 8 2007, 07:30 AM) |
| It's nice to have good parents who think ahead. |
And game designers who don't.
I'm pretty sure the designers meant Genetic Heritage to apply only to genetech and not bioware-as-genetech. All the genetechs are pretty cheap. I'm sure that's going to be one of the first houserules out there. You can ask it on the Augmentation Q&A so you get an official answer.
Posted by: Ancient History Aug 8 2007, 12:45 PM
I just want to laugh at the twitchy little kid that has to grow up with an integral synaptic booster.
Posted by: Wakshaani Aug 8 2007, 12:56 PM
| QUOTE (Ancient History) |
| I just want to laugh at the twitchy little kid that has to grow up with an integral synaptic booster. |
Ever read Calvin and Hobbes?
Posted by: Buster Aug 8 2007, 01:03 PM
| QUOTE (Ancient History) |
| I just want to laugh at the twitchy little kid that has to grow up with an integral synaptic booster. |
LOL. Give him a double espresso and he'll vibrate right out of the visible universe.
Posted by: Cthulhudreams Aug 8 2007, 01:12 PM
| QUOTE (Buster) | ||
And game designers who don't. I'm pretty sure the designers meant Genetic Heritage to apply only to genetech and not bioware-as-genetech. All the genetechs are pretty cheap. I'm sure that's going to be one of the first houserules out there. You can ask it on the Augmentation Q&A so you get an official answer. |
Actually the clear winner is the one that means your DNA eats itself at 45k which is entirely co-coincidently the same price as a pain editor. But yeah, hilarious, I should ask.
Huge boost to street sammies if you can though, and it doesn't help adepts because the no grades rule still eats their essence.
Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Aug 8 2007, 01:47 PM
| QUOTE (Ancient History) |
| I just want to laugh at the twitchy little kid that has to grow up with an integral synaptic booster. |
Actually, he's better off than anyone else who get's it later on.
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Aug 8 2007, 04:28 PM
Note that the rule in question isn't saying "all Bioware is available as Genetech." It's that Animal Features in the form of functional senses available as Bioware can be gained through Genetech as well, such as Cat's Eyes and Echolocation. It's all the same paragraph, not a separate and distinct rule.
But I'm sure that's not going to hold back the "omfg its raw shut up and let me munchkinate" crowd.
Posted by: Fortune Aug 8 2007, 09:12 PM
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| ... munchkinate ... |
Thanks. I was looking for a new 'word of the day'.
Posted by: Cthulhudreams Aug 8 2007, 10:20 PM
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| Note that the rule in question isn't saying "all Bioware is available as Genetech." It's that Animal Features in the form of functional senses available as Bioware can be gained through Genetech as well, such as Cat's Eyes and Echolocation. It's all the same paragraph, not a separate and distinct rule. But I'm sure that's not going to hold back the "omfg its raw shut up and let me munchkinate" crowd. |
I'm just going to paste the paragraph with each sentence marked which surely falls under fair use laws:
| QUOTE |
1) Animal features can include any phenotypic modification drawn from normal animal lifeforms. 2) These might include shaggy lion manes, rabbit’s ears, quills instead of hair, tails, claws, and other animal characteristics. 3) Note that such physical alterations do not automatically imbue the subject with animal-like senses or abilities, remaining primarily cosmetic. 4) Full functionality requires much more profound metabolic alterations. 5) Most of the functional changes available through biotech (p. 61) are also possible through transgenic alteration for comparable Essence and nuyen costs but longer treatment times (typically several months). |
It seems to me that the sentence 3 is what you mean that bioware like synaptic boosters is precluded. However, as 3 references abilities, then 4 says getting functionality requires profound metabolic alterations. Then 5 references functional alterations as requiring biotech, which you can get as a transgenic alteration.
It seems a reasonably clear cut -> You cannot use these rules to give yourself cats eyes or sharkskin. However, you CAN get sharkskin buy getting orthroskin with sharkskin mod, and this can be brought as a transgenic alteration.
It is not just limited to senses either, per sentence 3
That said any DM can clearly kick your ass to the curb with the undefined 'most' at the start of sentence 5, which if you agree with my reading lets the DM randomly preclude any bioware he feels like.
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Aug 8 2007, 10:42 PM
Paragraphs represent a single thought. You can't split a paragraph up and pick and choose which parts you want to read and ignore everything else; it doesn't work that way. If any Bioware could be taken as Genetech, that would have been spelled out in its own set of rules elsewhere. You really think it's a coincidence that's not the case here? Please.
"omfg its raw shut and let me munchkinate" in all its glory.
Posted by: PlatonicPimp Aug 9 2007, 04:56 AM
OK, As someone who suggested this early in the augmentation thread, here's the deal: if you allow it, it's totally a house rule. The only thing the rules quoted specifically allows is cosmetic bioware, the kind that only has the effect of making you look freaky.
Honestly, though, that whole trait is bullshit. having a genetic modification done to you in-vitro is awesome, but you should pay for the mod out of your starting funds and just SAY you were born with it. Same game effect, no munchkining, no getting screwed on points for choosing a sub-par ability. Rules wise there's no difference for an in-born genetic mod, so why make it cost different in terms of BP?
Posted by: Dancer Aug 9 2007, 05:35 AM
Don't forget that to inherit the mod your parents had to have had it done twenty years (or more) ago, meaning it's a couple of generations behind the tech curve. And if you get yourself loaded up with genetech versions of bioware your kids are going to be born with 0.1 Essence and a load of obsolete systems.
Posted by: Whipstitch Aug 9 2007, 06:14 AM
Erm, they're not a subpar qualities. Genetic heritage is a great way to pick up the equivalent of an exceptional attribute or other nifty ability on the cheap as well as giving a discount to other purchases. If nothing else, Genetic Heritage, Genecrafting and Nano Prototype are nice for people (like me, for instance) who favor maxing out the equipment cap because they let you squeeze more fancy gear under the 50 bp limit in exchange for spending a little extra and a taking a hit to your Quality cap. Don't go bashing the qualities just because some people came to a few wild conclusions and think they can buy Synaptic 3 and a 20% off all Genetech coupon for 10bps. I'm pretty confident there isn't anything particularly out of whack with the qualities themselves, provided you aren't taking the kinds of liberties people here are talking about (and I really do think it takes quite a stretch to say such things are supported by the RAW).
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Aug 9 2007, 08:03 AM
Genetic Heritage is a great quality. Not only do you get to start with any genetech treatment of your choosing for free (and no mention is made of an Availability limitation, mind you), but you also get a 20% discount on any other transgenic genetech treatments you want at character creation or beyond. And that does include the animalistic-bioware-implants-as-genetech rule.
That means for the equivalence of 50,000 nuyen (and still leaving you with up to 250,000 nuyen for other gear), you can get the equivalence of Biocompatibility (Adapsin) which is fully compatible with Biocompability or any of the really hot Genetic Infusions such as Sideways or Braveheart. Those are all covered by genetech, which the quality specifically allows.
Give me any of those options over starting with a free Synaptic Booster any day.
Posted by: ThreeGee Aug 9 2007, 08:12 AM
Adapsin is specifically excluded from being bought at character generation.
Posted by: Cthulhudreams Aug 9 2007, 08:20 AM
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein @ Aug 8 2007, 05:42 PM) |
| Paragraphs represent a single thought. You can't split a paragraph up and pick and choose which parts you want to read and ignore everything else; it doesn't work that way. If any Bioware could be taken as Genetech, that would have been spelled out in its own set of rules elsewhere. You really think it's a coincidence that's not the case here? Please. "omfg its raw shut and let me munchkinate" in all its glory. |
Bah!
Basically it comes down to me:
Is the fact that a gorilla is really strong a characteristic of that animal? What about the fact a cheetah can run really fast? I, incorrectly perhaps, assumed that it was so. I'd just seen the words 'animal like amendments' and run off with my hair on fire!
I disagree with your assessment that I "split a paragraph up and pick and choose which parts you read and ignore the rest" I thought I hadn't done that, and had instead approached the rules holistically with an overview of what is said by taking all the components in their context with each other.
Disagreeing with my conclusion is fine, because you have read phenotypic and metabolic in a more informed manner to me. I actually read metabolic as specifically referencing the nervous system (whoops!) but have since looked it up and discovered I was wrong
I also took your post from the enhanced equipment thread:
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| How do you mean? There's already a precedence for such a rule (the Genetic Heritage positive quality in Augmentation). It allows you to start with any one genetech treatment of choice for free (no price or Availability limits given) and offers a 20% nuyen discount on all future genetech. Genewipe, for instance, is an Availability 16F treatment costing 45,000¥ (and a really awesome one to have for a runner). All for 10 BP. Quite a steal. These suggestions are just variations of that based around gear rather than genetech implants. |
as assuming that avaliablity limits did not apply. Something that people in this thread have actually already disagreed with! (See busters previous comments about avalibility when I suggested my hairbrained scheme) - you god damn munchkinate!!!
Anyway, as a result of my misinfomation on one or more counts, I naturally reached the potentially incorrect conculsion that synaptic booster was a viable technique. Taking the above and running with it to synaptic boosters III touchdown is totally over the top, but I've never been one to not ask
I do hope with my line of reasoning clearly layed down on the table you will ascribe me with marginally less stupid thinking
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Aug 9 2007, 08:35 AM
There's an Availability 12 for Resources at character creation. There's no such limitation regarding Positive or Negative Qualities, neither of which are Resources -- a specific character creation "category." Qualities are a completely different category with its own rules, none of which have the aforementioned Availability 12 limitation. In fact, the Availibility 12 limitation is specific only to the Gear subcategory of the Resources category (SR4 p. 84).
Anyone who claims otherwise isn't living up the rules as written that they cling to so vehemently when it suits their arguments.
See. I can play that game, too.
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Aug 9 2007, 08:45 AM
| QUOTE (ThreeGee @ Aug 9 2007, 02:12 AM) |
| Adapsin is specifically excluded from being bought at character generation. |
Granted, the specific rules for Adapsin state they shouldn't be available at character creation. But that text doesn't say that they're not available, just that GMs should restrict it if for some reason -- perhaps such as the one in question in this very thread -- the Availability 12 limitation isn't in play (Adapsin has an Availability of 16 normally). Those rules also say should and shouldn't be. Not must and isn't.
Genetic Infusions, however, don't even have that suggested limitation as far as I'm aware.
Posted by: ThreeGee Aug 9 2007, 09:00 AM
Aren't we discussing it being used as your Genetic Inheritance freebie. In that case your arguing that a cutting edge transgenic therapy that in 2070 is excluded from character generation was available to your parents 15-20 years previously.
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Aug 9 2007, 09:02 AM
That I am. Who knows, maybe your fetus was the one who provided the original sample in the R&D laboratories 15-20 years previously due to a unique blend or mutation of genetically altered material in your parents.
Posted by: Fortune Aug 9 2007, 09:05 AM
ThreeGee: True, but what is cutting edge but still available today must have been the subject of experimentation somewhere down the line. Also there is the possibility that the effect is actually an unplanned side-effect from a totally (or not-so-totally) different experimental treatment performed on his parents. Or even the result of the combination of two quite disparate techniques. There are usually a few ways to explain these things.
Posted by: Cthulhudreams Aug 9 2007, 09:19 AM
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein @ Aug 9 2007, 03:45 AM) |
| Genetic Infusions, however, don't even have that suggested limitation as far as I'm aware. |
Mhmm, are you saying that you think with genetic heritage that someone could start with a gene infusion that they had effectively got 5 hits on?
Edit: Either way, Sideways seems pretty intense for someone to have as a permanent effect.. I mean thats basically giving you a fairly advanced form of leprosy in return for some combat buffs. Endure would be similar terrible for any character. Braceheart would be totally sweet though.
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Aug 9 2007, 09:20 AM
I'm saying the rules don't expressly disallow such a thing, yes.
Posted by: Cthulhudreams Aug 9 2007, 09:24 AM
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein @ Aug 9 2007, 04:20 AM) |
| I'm saying the rules don't expressly disallow such a thing, yes. |
Aha right. I wonder what the pricing would be like on them as a permanent effect.
Posted by: Fortune Aug 9 2007, 09:54 AM
On the topic of Bioware as Geneware, I found this little quote which backs up Doc's point-of-view, albeit in a oblique manner.
| QUOTE (Augmentation pg. 52) |
| Biotechnology covers all the biological and quasi-biological enhancements people can buy to enhance their bodies and abilities. Biotech can alter or augment organs, tissue, and body parts in a way that is completely compatible with the organism’s own workings while making changes that are beyond anything that the body could grow or develop on its own, even if the DNA were altered. |
Obviously the bolding and italics are mine, on the pertinent portions of the text.
Posted by: Zen Shooter01 Aug 9 2007, 01:13 PM
Can we get a developer to comment on this?
Personally I like the idea that bioware can be had as genetech - it makes genetech a lot more versatile, but not overbalanced.
Posted by: Whipstitch Aug 9 2007, 02:08 PM
NM, posted something but then immediately thought it through a bit better.
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