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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Living Focus - why the bad rap?
Posted by: pbangarth Aug 8 2007, 07:35 PM
I see many references here in DS to the adept power Living Focus as being a waste of time. The worst I have seen said about it is that it takes 2 dice away from actions by the adept.
But, any kind of sustained spell takes those dice away from somebody, usually the mage. A sustaining focus eliminates that detraction, but an adept can't use those, and sustaining foci are usually limited in rating, particularly at character generation.
An adept with Living Focus:
1) allows the mage to cast a spell on him and be free to do other things without cost ("Sure, I'll cast that on you, it's no skin off my teeth.")
2) can accept spells of any kind from any mage in the party. Mondo flexible.
3) acts as a focus of rating equal to his Magic, which will usually be 4 or more and be able to grow with no limit. ("He has armor WHAT??!!")
4) can choose to drop the sustained spell whenever the -2 dice cost becomes more expensive than all the benefits of 1) to 3) above.
Why would you not want your adept to have this power?
Posted by: klinktastic Aug 8 2007, 07:39 PM
That's what I was thinking. I might drop it in on my guy at, but it will depend on what mage we have. If he's got a nice little selection of spells, I wouldn't mind. I can always drop the sustained spell when I want to actually use my skills to their fullest.
Then again, I have never played the game before.....
Posted by: Dashifen Aug 8 2007, 07:51 PM
The big advantage that I've seen is #2. That sustaining foci must be aspected to a type of magic (e.g., health) but a Living Focus can sustain any sustained spell .... that's just cool.
Posted by: Marwynn Aug 8 2007, 08:08 PM
Power points are relatively limited by Magic, and it's costly enough to Initiate and raise Magic and get the Adept Power.
Meanwhile, Karma is gained through various means and a lot of a foci's cost also comes from its material cost. It's extremely cool to be able to sustain a spell your team mage puts on you, but it's probably best to bring the Mage along a few more runs and pay for the material costs of a Foci.
Then you can get something cool.
I don't think it's a bad choice, just a suboptimal one considering all the stuff you could get as a Power that you can't get anywhere else.
I'd like it even more if somehow the power helped the Mage's drain somewhat by lending him one of your own stats as a bonus or a replacement if it's higher.
Posted by: klinktastic Aug 8 2007, 08:13 PM
Always room for a GM house rule errata.....Right Dash!
Posted by: James McMurray Aug 8 2007, 08:13 PM
If I can free up a magic point I'll definitely be getting it for my mental adept. Magic 4 means he can hit me up with Increased Reflexes 4 and a few extra IPs. Given the results of my last run-in with IC, being able to hack in VR but still have 4 IPs will be nice. And I don't have to ask him to spend 8 karma. Plus if I ever need him to hook me up with something different (maybe a Heal after a firefight, or a Prophylaxis before a night on the town)* I don't have to worry about impairing his abilities or buying (and bonding) another focus.
* edit: those are bad examples, since they'd all fall under a single health focus. Swap them out with Armor, Invisibility, or Stealth to better show the power's versatility.
Posted by: James McMurray Aug 8 2007, 08:15 PM
| QUOTE (Marwynn) |
| I don't think it's a bad choice, just a suboptimal one considering all the stuff you could get as a Power that you can't get anywhere else. |
Where else can you get a 0
, 0 karma, universal sustaining focus whose power increases as the group gains karma?
Posted by: WeaverMount Aug 8 2007, 08:18 PM
Especially if you factor in spirits if you mage can summon spirts of man he can have it sustain an any spell he knows on you. He has it preform one remote service on you (constant use of the option power "Any spell know to the caster") and it doesn't even count against his limits, no karma, no powers, no -2s.
Posted by: WeaverMount Aug 8 2007, 08:22 PM
@ James. How do you figure it as zero karma? To reacquire the resources spent on it costs +1 magic and usually +1 initiation. I'd hardly call that free.
Posted by: klinktastic Aug 8 2007, 08:34 PM
Weavermount brings up a good point. I have no clue how that all works, but it certainly seems much better. And it doesn't cost you anything, just the mage.
Posted by: James McMurray Aug 8 2007, 08:43 PM
| QUOTE (WeaverMount) |
| @ James. How do you figure it as zero karma? To reacquire the resources spent on it costs +1 magic and usually +1 initiation. I'd hardly call that free. |
I'm talking 0 karma for the mage. When asking someone to do something that requires them to spend karma, that tends to be the biggest limiting factor.
In regards to karma for the adept, it costs precisely as much as any other point worth of powers, so the karma cost becomes irrelevant to the discussion.
Posted by: PlatonicPimp Aug 8 2007, 08:49 PM
It's those -2 dice. It's not that it's a bad tradeoff, but most adepts are trying to maximize their dice pool, and anything that works against that is off the table.
Another part of it is that it requires a mage to cast the spell on you. Teamwork is important, but so is self-reliance.
I think if it weren't a full Power point, it would be more attractive. It's more of a half point power, if you ask me.
Posted by: klinktastic Aug 8 2007, 08:53 PM
| QUOTE (PlatonicPimp @ Aug 8 2007, 03:49 PM) |
| I think if it weren't a full Power point, it would be more attractive. It's more of a half point power, if you ask me. |
Wink, wink Dash....
Plus, it would be pretty cool to have a mage be addicted to using use as a foci.
Posted by: Marwynn Aug 8 2007, 09:11 PM
| QUOTE (James McMurray) | ||
Where else can you get a 0 , 0 karma, universal sustaining focus whose power increases as the group gains karma? |
On him.
That's the rub. The normal sustaining focus works on anyone/anything, but just for one spell type.
So great, you can give the Adept any sustained spell on his own. Or you can give one spell to anyone.
But I wouldn't call it "free" exactly. That power is in place of another power. Where else are you going to get, let's say, +4 to Analyzing crazy problems? Extra dice you can't get anywhere else?
Kinesics? Power Throw?
If it factors into your tightly knit shadowrunning team to have the adept magic'd up then it's fine. 'Suboptimal' doesn't mean 'sucks'.
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Aug 8 2007, 09:40 PM
You're missing the entire -2 Dicepool penalty for every single thing you do while acting as a Living Focus. You may as well just reduce all your attributes by 2 points and use the, what?, 100 or so Build Points to get yourself whatever perks you would have gotten via the spell you want. Particularly in the way of boosted reflexes. Same end effect; -2 dice to almost everything you do.
Posted by: Demerzel Aug 8 2007, 09:41 PM
Actually a radically different end effect seeing as you can choose to cancel the effect anytime you like and get those dice back.
Posted by: PlatonicPimp Aug 8 2007, 09:48 PM
Here's the deal for me: It's a dud power in my opinion unless it is altered to ahve some advantage for the mystic adept. As it stands, it does nothing for you if you're a mystic adept, and yet thematically they seem the ones most likely to want to use it.
Posted by: pbangarth Aug 8 2007, 09:50 PM
| QUOTE (Marwynn) |
| But I wouldn't call it "free" exactly. That power is in place of another power. Where else are you going to get, let's say, +4 to Analyzing crazy problems? Extra dice you can't get anywhere else? Kinesics? Power Throw? If it factors into your tightly knit shadowrunning team to have the adept magic'd up then it's fine. 'Suboptimal' doesn't mean 'sucks'. |
Whatever 1 Power Point worth of adept Power you give up to have Living Focus is replaced by an extremely flexible, interchangeable "Power Point" worth of all kinds of abilities, many of which the adept could never have on her own.
DSers recognize the usefulness of skillwires. Living Focus is a parallel to that implant in the magical realm.
Yes, it does require cooperation among team members. So what? So does any run worth the
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Aug 8 2007, 09:55 PM
Once again: -2 dicepool penalty. Skillwires don't give you a -2 dicepool penalty. Living Focus does, which is why it's subpar at best.
All it does is transfer the -2 penalty from the mage to the adept. That's all it offers, which is great for the mage but terrible for the adept. Which, for an adept who's going to be using whatever spell is being sustained, sucks even more since the mage could have just stayed in the background maintaining it while improving the adept with the spell.
Posted by: klinktastic Aug 8 2007, 10:03 PM
Could you sustain an area invisibility on said adept? Just have him walk around eminating a sphere of invisibility?
Posted by: pbangarth Aug 8 2007, 10:07 PM
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| Which, for an adept who's going to be using whatever spell is being sustained, sucks even more since the mage could have just stayed in the background maintaining it while improving the adept with the spell. |
or the mage could be nuking the enemy free of hindrance.
Yes, the -2 penalty is a cost but by that logic sustained spells are all a waste of time. There are many instances where the adept doesn't need to be doing a zillion things at once, only the thing which the sustained spell has allowed/enhanced her to do.
Posted by: Marwynn Aug 8 2007, 10:10 PM
| QUOTE (pbangarth) | ||
Whatever 1 Power Point worth of adept Power you give up to have Living Focus is replaced by an extremely flexible, interchangeable "Power Point" worth of all kinds of abilities, many of which the adept could never have on her own. DSers recognize the usefulness of skillwires. Living Focus is a parallel to that implant in the magical realm. Yes, it does require cooperation among team members. So what? So does any run worth the |
Yes. And for that 1 point I could have brought something ELSE on the table that you couldn't replicate with a Sustaining Focus and some Karma.
Let's see +4 to Perception/Assensing tests, +4 to Social tests where you're physically present, +2 Spell Resistance, L4 Analytics which may just help you figure out a problem or deduce something that your GM planted and will love you for, L4 Facial Sculpt which can give you a fairly new face for Magic hours, Traceless Walk, and all the smaller little things that are fun and useful.
-2 to all my tests or eating once a day and sleeping for 3 hours, quickdrawing any weapon and readying to attack it with one action, and being able to replace a clip with a free action.
Yes, it's good. No, it's not "free". There are better things that a Mage can't bring to the table with all his spells (or at least undetectable as his spells aren't).
Dude, anyone recognizes the usefulness of skillwires. One Rating 3 Skillwire pretty much sets you up for the rest of your career as long as you can get the soft for it. This isn't the same thing at all.
And it's more than just cooperation, it's coordination. You're relying on this adept to have this power on him and the spell the mage casts. You'd raise your power level appropriately too. Giving the Adept say a Force 6 Combat Senses spell would let him throw some dice against getting caught in a Full Auto attack (provided he had more than 3 Reaction to begin with and had 6 hits).
Also, have you given any thought to Counterspelling? True, it means the enemy Mage that tries to Dispel the sustained effect isn't hurling a fireball at your face and whatnot, and it's hard to really beat going up against Force + Magic vs Magic + Counterspelling which could easily be 12 vs 6 + (1-6), and the drain will be a pain.
But that power A) Lights up the Adept, B) Can be reduced by an average Wagemage, and so on.
A Mage with a sustaining focus can suffer the same fate. But he didn't waste an Adept's power point with it.
Posted by: pbangarth Aug 8 2007, 10:24 PM
There is a nearly infinite list of powers the adept could choose from if he didn't take Living Focus. That list would be reduced in number by 1(or a few) if he took one of them instead of Living Focus. There will always be things you wish your adept had, if only he had the points. Saying you could have had -this- if you hadn't taken -that- can be said of any adept Power.
I argue flexibility and ability to coordinate with other team members to fit the needs of the moment are valuable commodities. The -2 dice cost is applicable only as long as the function the sustained spell is performing outweighs it. After that, drop the spell and go ahead and wow/elude/destroy the enemy with that extra 2 dice.
I guess it needs to be tested in play.
Posted by: Fortune Aug 8 2007, 11:17 PM
| QUOTE (pbangarth) |
| The -2 dice cost is applicable only as long as the function the sustained spell is performing outweighs it. After that, drop the spell and go ahead and wow/elude/destroy the enemy with that extra 2 dice. |
But then that same argument could be said for just letting the Mage sustain the Spell himself in the first place, and not wasting the PP. All you are doing is shifting the Sustaining penalty from one person to another, and while useful in certain situations, I don't think it is worth the price of 1 PP.
Posted by: Ancient History Aug 9 2007, 12:09 AM
Anyone that does take Living Focus might also be advised to initiate and take the Adept Centering metamagic.
Posted by: Ranneko Aug 9 2007, 12:24 AM
| QUOTE (WeaverMount) |
| Especially if you factor in spirits if you mage can summon spirts of man he can have it sustain an any spell he knows on you. He has it preform one remote service on you (constant use of the option power "Any spell know to the caster") and it doesn't even count against his limits, no karma, no powers, no -2s. |
Check the errata, that doesn't work, it still counts toward the mage's limits, which means, if the spirit is unbound, that he has given up his one slot for unbount spirits, and given up control of it, a rather bad choice.
Posted by: James McMurray Aug 9 2007, 01:40 AM
| QUOTE (PlatonicPimp) |
| It's those -2 dice. It's not that it's a bad tradeoff, but most adepts are trying to maximize their dice pool, and anything that works against that is off the table. |
I think the -2 dice is a definite cost, but it's a negligible one. the adept is maximizing his dice pools. His -2 is a lot less painful then the mage's -2.
| QUOTE |
| Another part of it is that it requires a mage to cast the spell on you. Teamwork is important, but so is self-reliance. |
Shadowrun is an extremely team oriented setup.
| QUOTE |
| I think if it weren't a full Power point, it would be more attractive. It's more of a half point power, if you ask me. |
It's definitely expensive. That's why I said "if I can free up the power point." It wasn't my first choice becaues of the large point cost compared to, say, getting +4 dice somewhere.
Posted by: James McMurray Aug 9 2007, 01:43 AM
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| You're missing the entire -2 Dicepool penalty for every single thing you do while acting as a Living Focus. You may as well just reduce all your attributes by 2 points and use the, what?, 100 or so Build Points to get yourself whatever perks you would have gotten via the spell you want. Particularly in the way of boosted reflexes. Same end effect; -2 dice to almost everything you do. |
You've heard, I assume, of Adept Centering?
Posted by: James McMurray Aug 9 2007, 01:46 AM
| QUOTE |
| That's the rub. The normal sustaining focus works on anyone/anything, but just for one spell type. So great, you can give the Adept any sustained spell on his own. Or you can give one spell to anyone. |
You can actually do both. That 8 karma the mage saved by not bonding the focus for you? He can spend it bonding a focus to give to you or someone else.
Yay teamwork!
| QUOTE |
| But I wouldn't call it "free" exactly. That power is in place of another power. Where else are you going to get, let's say, +4 to Analyzing crazy problems? Extra dice you can't get anywhere else? |
Analytics is first on the chopping block if I take Living Focus. Bonus dice are easy for an adept to get, and those are way too specialized IMO.
| QUOTE |
| Kinesics? Power Throw? |
Useless to many builds.
Nobody has said there aren't other powers. No matter what you pick, there will always be stuff you want. That's kinda the thing with adepts.
Posted by: James McMurray Aug 9 2007, 01:51 AM
| QUOTE (pbangarth @ Aug 8 2007, 04:50 PM) |
| Yes. And for that 1 point I could have brought something ELSE on the table that you couldn't replicate with a Sustaining Focus and some Karma. |
How kind of you to spend someone else's karma for them. What if your character doesn't want to be a drain on his teammate's limited resources?
| QUOTE |
| Let's see +4 to Perception/Assensing tests, +4 to Social tests where you're physically present, +2 Spell Resistance, L4 Analytics which may just help you figure out a problem or deduce something that your GM planted and will love you for, L4 Facial Sculpt which can give you a fairly new face for Magic hours, Traceless Walk, and all the smaller little things that are fun and useful. |
so you've proven that there are good adept powers. So what? Whichever one of those you pick, you won't be able to pick any of the others. Sounds like they're all useless according to that logic.
| QUOTE |
| -2 to all my tests or eating once a day and sleeping for 3 hours, quickdrawing any weapon and readying to attack it with one action, and being able to replace a clip with a free action. |
Honestly? Those are your options? Have you seen the essence cost on a sleep regulator? Ot the
cost on a quick draw holster? | QUOTE |
| Yes, it's good. No, it's not "free". There are better things that a Mage can't bring to the table with all his spells (or at least undetectable as his spells aren't). |
Who said it was free?
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Aug 9 2007, 02:04 AM
| QUOTE (James McMurray @ Aug 8 2007, 07:43 PM) |
| You've heard, I assume, of Adept Centering? |
And you've heard, I assume, of other modifiers? Especially in combat? And how Adept Centering doesn't eliminate all of them, just a few?
I don't think anyone is saying Living Focus is useless. Only that when compared to most every other adept power, it's one of the weakest especially for the Power Point cost. Doubly so when used in the manner a few people in this thread desire to use it as -- as a form of Improved Reflexes. Sure, it's cheaper than 5 Power Points, but you're not only getting less bang for your buck (+3 Initiative vs. +3 Reaction), but you're also suffering that -2 dicepool modifier on every single thing you do. That includes Quick Draw tests, Combat Tests, Skill Tests, and Social Tests.
If that limitation s fine by you, as well as all the other negatives that come from having a sustaining focus (being unable to walk through a ward without a test, being dual-natured and vulnerable to attack [or is that legacy thinking again?], being a link back to the mage who cast it, leaving behind the mage's astral signature, etc.) knock yourself out with Living Focus.
Me? I'd rather spend the point elsewhere or just give it up entirely and get a set of real Skillwires 5 or Synaptic Booster 2.
Posted by: Marwynn Aug 9 2007, 02:30 AM
| QUOTE (James McMurray @ Aug 8 2007, 08:46 PM) | ||||||
You can actually do both. That 8 karma the mage saved by not bonding the focus for you? He can spend it bonding a focus to give to you or someone else. Yay teamwork!
Analytics is first on the chopping block if I take Living Focus. Bonus dice are easy for an adept to get, and those are way too specialized IMO.
Useless to many builds. Nobody has said there aren't other powers. No matter what you pick, there will always be stuff you want. That's kinda the thing with adepts. |
Well of course both options are stronger than one or the other.
I guess I'm just not saying this clearly. But then again, another 8 karma would mean the Adept wouldn't have to spend X karma increasing his magic/getting initiated.
I know Mages are already hard-up on Karma so it's not like it's an easy thing, but Mages are a lot more versatile than Adepts. And I pointed out Kinesics/Power Throw/Analytics as a varied sampling of the different kind of Adepts and what they can bring to the table that they can't get elsewhere. And where a sustained spell would be astrally spotted, disabled by a Ward, or plain old dispelled.
Tell me this then, in what combat situation (let's face it, that's what we're all thinking about) would it be beneficial for an Adept to sustain a spell himself instead of having a Mage sustain it for him or through a focus for him? If he doesn't have Improved Reflexes but has Improved Combat Ability to negate the -2 penalty, then you may have something there.
If your retort is that a Mage and an Adept with both Living Focus and a Foci will rule, well a Mage with two Focii can do the same thing. With anyone.
As a mage I really would rather dump the Karma into a solid Manipulation, Illusion or a Health sustaining focus than not have the Adept enhance himself directly. Great, I can cast any beneficial sustained spell on you. I could've done that with a few more runs and you could've gotten something nicer, like I dunno, Improved Combat Ability.
From a min-max perspective Adept Power Points are far rarer than Karma is.
For example, a soft-maxed Adept with Magic 5 is going to need 18 Karma to raise Magic to 6. Meanwhile a Mage who wants to sustain Increase Reflexes spends 12 Karma to bind a Rating 3 focus for Health. Though admittedly it'd only be really useful for that one spell as the other Health sustained spells aren't really what you'd call 'handy'.
The tradeoff is that it's a one time investment of 18 karma for any spell to run on the adept. Wunderbar! you say. Great, for the adept. Maybe the group by extension. If you plan things that closely and don't mind the metagaming of it all, it can lead to something strong. But it does lose flexibility. And that Adept could've been a better whatever-kind-of-Adept he without the use of sustaining spells.
Maybe I'm just projecting a wariness of planning such characters far too closely like that. It builds dependency and a crafty GM will introduce you to situations where that might not be possible.
Like all of those Awakened out there who settled for Sustained Foci for Increase Reflexes and were thrust against a wagemage with a high counterspelling skill, thrust in an area of high mana background count, a warded place, or some bound spirits that like the look of sustained focii. Instead of the slightly more reliable 'ware route.
They're both perfectly okay. One requires a lot of ifs and maybes, the other can be turn on or is always on.
| QUOTE | ||
How kind of you to spend someone else's karma for them. What if your character doesn't want to be a drain on his teammate's limited resources? |
I thought so myself. But here we are pooling resources. That was the gist of it all wasn't it? Extreme coordination?
Or did your Adept learn to manifest a Living Focus aspect of his talent on the off chance he might meet a friendly mage with the proper spells to enhance his particular brand of Adept-ness?
The point is, he's not a drain (heh) on anyone's resources if he contributes something in its place.
Weaken me with a strong sustained spell slightly with a -2 penalty, or I can bring something that the team might not have in supply.
That was the whole point of 'coordinating' and 'cooperating' right?
| QUOTE | ||
so you've proven that there are good adept powers. So what? Whichever one of those you pick, you won't be able to pick any of the others. Sounds like they're all useless according to that logic. |
No, not at all. It's all in place of one or the other. The point is you're bringing something to the table that doesn't rely on someone else, you know being a drain on someone, and can positively contribute to your role.
You didn't take Living Focus and turn into a battery for your group's mage. You know can walk quietly or turn your hands into flaming fists or turn into Sherlock Holmes and piece together different clues.
No, you won't be able to pick the others. But there's one less out of the jumble of good adept powers that you won't have to worry about not having.
| QUOTE | ||
Honestly? Those are your options? Have you seen the essence cost on a sleep regulator? Ot the cost on a quick draw holster? |
Uh huh. A holster holds a pistol. Quickdrawing any weapon is quickdrawing any weapon. The Essence cost of a 10,000
Sleep Regulator is HUGE.Why? You pay a freaking Magic point for it. No dice.
| QUOTE | ||
Who said it was free? |
I believe someone said something along the lines of 0
and 0 karma.Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Aug 9 2007, 02:37 AM
At 1`P I dont think I'd ever want to take it. On the other hand doing things like sustaining a bunch of physical mask spells for the team is really hard for a non-optimized mage. A team of 4 means -8 dice to all actions and -6 dice when trying to cast the last physical mask spell. If its a team of 5 your at -8 dice for that last cast, a lot of mages might have to blow edge at the point just to get the ability to roll.
Any spells where you would be sustaining them on the whole team this helps the mage out a lot with. Other than that I just dont see the use, so at 1 PP I'd say its out of consideration.
Posted by: klinktastic Aug 9 2007, 02:51 AM
Can someone answer my question of if you can cast the Area Effect Invisibility that can be sustained on the adept in question? That might prove useful.
Posted by: Marwynn Aug 9 2007, 03:14 AM
Well there aren't any spells that are Area of Effect Invisibility spells. Theoretically, you can cast an Improved Invisibility spell that was cast over several people, splitting the dice between the number you want the spell on, then maybe handing it off to your Adept with the Living Focus to sustain.
The "spell" would be the multi-targetted spell. It'd be similar to having an Illusion Sustaining Focus at whatever force you cast it at.
Of course, you'd need to be a helluva good mage to get enough net hits to make it difficult for each person to not be seen by getting high enough thresholds.
But if you're thinking about a "cloak" that the Adept has around him as an area of effect sustained spell, I don't see why not. If you can make a spell like it that just blankets living things near the target to go invisible... that'd be up to your GM though.
Easier to summon a spirit and Conceal everyone.
Posted by: Ancient History Aug 9 2007, 03:15 AM
There are a couple of fun tricks you can pull of with Living Focus that would be difficult, if not impossible to do otherwise.
For one thing, nothing in the power description says the magician casting the spell needs to "let it go"-the adept can just start concentrating and skedaddle, taking the sustained spell with her. This can be especially interesting because the caster's astral signature will remain as long as the spell is sustained. Granted, the scenarios where this would be most practical are rare, but here are a few:
- You hire a magician to cast a sustained spell on you and have them sustain it for one hour, then sustain it yourself when the magician drops it. The spell maintains an active link to the caster, which allows you to track her.
- A magician assassin targeting the adept that casts a Decrease spell on her. By maintaining the spell herself and escaping, the adept can have the astral signature identified and figure out who the magician is.
- A suicide-bomber adept sustains a ritual-cast Illusion spell, allowing her to penetrate her enemy's compound and then allow herself to be the target of a ritual Fireball spell to kill her (and, hopefully, the enemy).
- In the middle of a magical war, a healing magician casts Stabilize on heavily-wounded adepts and they sustain the spell on themselves until the effects become permanent.
- A magician with the flexible signature metamagic casts a spell on a friendly adept with the forged signature of the enemy magician. The adept stumbles to the police and collapses, releasing the spell: the forensic magicians believe that the enemy magician has cast a harmful spell and arrests them.
- An adept has to run a particular guantlet (a security system, an ancient ruin filled with magical traps, etc.) and has to be able to turn her sustained spells (like Geck Crawl or Glue) off at the correct time...or the adept dies. Imagine needing to hold on to that train until just the right moment.
- The adept manages to score a jar of the magical compound Sage and uses her Living Focus power to extend the duration of the spell.
- A mystic adept with an animal companion lends it Living Focus using the Empower Animal metamgic so that it can maintain one of her spells for her.
Posted by: Dizzman Aug 9 2007, 03:34 AM
Living focus is a good and interesting power that could use just a couple of tweaks to make it more worthwhile. Just dropping the -2 modifier or reducing the cost to .5 of a power point would make it a strong contender on my list for magical adepts. If you did both, I would take it for regular adepts as well. Put in on my wish list for SR5. 
I also miss the twinkiness of deep rooting from SOTA 2064. Now that was a bad ass power both for combat effectiveness and for looking like a character out of a John Woo movie.
Posted by: hyzmarca Aug 9 2007, 03:36 AM
Reason why 99% of all adepts will take Living Focus if given the chance: Orgasm is a sustained spell.
Posted by: Wasabi Aug 9 2007, 08:25 AM
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| Reason why 99% of all adepts will take Living Focus if given the chance: Orgasm is a sustained spell. |
BWWAHAHAHA!!!
(Sorry to not saying anything constructive but **mn thats funny stuff!)
Posted by: Wasabi Aug 9 2007, 08:27 AM
| QUOTE (Marwynn) |
| Easier to summon a spirit and Conceal everyone. |
And far better since the Concealment power affects all perception tests not just visual.
Posted by: Eleazar Aug 9 2007, 12:08 PM
Use psyche to turn that -2 into a -1.
As far as Living Focus having a bad rep, I think it is all about opportunity cost. What else could I get for this 1 power point, and would it be more beneficial? If this power was cheaper, I think more people would be picking it up.
Posted by: James McMurray Aug 9 2007, 02:17 PM
Rather than repeat myself answering questions I've already answered, I'll just say "reread my posts if you have a question. The answers are already there."
I'm not saying that LF is the best choice available. Far from it. What I'm saying is that it's a decent choice, and it means you're not asking your mage buddy to dump 6+ karma into something you'll be wanting to use constantly.
A few that didn't already have answers:
| QUOTE |
| As a mage I really would rather dump the Karma into a solid Manipulation, Illusion or a Health sustaining focus than not have the Adept enhance himself directly. Great, I can cast any beneficial sustained spell on you. I could've done that with a few more runs and you could've gotten something nicer, like I dunno, Improved Combat Ability. |
Do you not understand the meaning of "you can do both?" There's nothing stopping you from also getting a manipulation, illusion, or health focus just because the adept was nice to you and got LF.
| QUOTE |
| Maybe I'm just projecting a wariness of planning such characters far too closely like that. It builds dependency and a crafty GM will introduce you to situations where that might not be possible. |
How does this not apply to sustaining foci?
| QUOTE |
| Or did your Adept learn to manifest a Living Focus aspect of his talent on the off chance he might meet a friendly mage with the proper spells to enhance his particular brand of Adept-ness? |
What does back story matter in a balance discussion?
| QUOTE |
| Uh huh. A holster holds a pistol. Quickdrawing any weapon is quickdrawing any weapon. The Essence cost of a 10,000 Sleep Regulator is HUGE. |
0.15 is huge? Maybe if you plan on being pristine in the cyber/bioware department. But most adepts I've seen go for at least one point of magic loss for cool toys. If your style is different, that's cool.
| QUOTE |
| I believe someone said something along the lines of 0 and 0 karma. |
That's not the same as free.
Posted by: Marwynn Aug 9 2007, 02:35 PM
| QUOTE |
Do you not understand the meaning of "you can do both?" There's nothing stopping you from also getting a manipulation, illusion, or health focus just because the adept was nice to you and got LF. |
I did. You skipped the part where I mention it. Great, you can do both. Whatever.
And I am not saying LF is a bad choice. It's just a suboptimal one.
We vary on just how bad or how good it is.
| QUOTE |
0.15 is huge? Maybe if you plan on being pristine in the cyber/bioware department. But most adepts I've seen go for at least one point of magic loss for cool toys. If your style is different, that's cool. |
Yes, it's huge. A Physical adept will go for Synaptic Boosters 2 which is a full point of Essence most likely.
If you can squeeze it in with Tailored Pheromones, if you're a Social Adept then fine. But it's still just 3 hours of sleep. Sustenance does let you get away with just one meal and one trip to the bathroom.
But anyway that's too dependent on the actual adept at hand. Assuming no previous 'ware, it's huge. Assuming a combat-centric adept, it'll go over the limit. I don't know if you can fit cultured Muscle Toner 2, Synaptic Boosters 1, and SleepRegulator into 1 Essence point. I think he goes over by a small tad, so you're looking at Beta Sleep Regulators there.
It's potentially huge. Unless you're not gonna go after the juicy 'ware.
| QUOTE | ||
How does this not apply to sustaining foci? |
You did ignore all the parts where I said sustaining foci have the same problems?
You know, like the very next line of what you quoted?
"Like all of those Awakened out there who settled for Sustained Foci for Increase Reflexes and were thrust against a wagemage with a high counterspelling skill, thrust in an area of high mana background count, a warded place, or some bound spirits that like the look of sustained focii. Instead of the slightly more reliable 'ware route."
| QUOTE |
| That's not the same as free. |
Oh I see. No, I don't.
Posted by: Backgammon Aug 9 2007, 02:41 PM
| QUOTE (klinktastic) |
| Could you sustain an area invisibility on said adept? Just have him walk around eminating a sphere of invisibility? |
Yes and no.
Yes, he could sustain the spell.
No, it would not create a sphere of invisibility, because that's not how the spell works.
Posted by: James McMurray Aug 9 2007, 03:23 PM
| QUOTE (Marwynn) | ||
Oh I see. No, I don't. |
Free means no cost. LF has a cost, it's just not monetary or karma. Those other costs have been talked about in almost every post in this thread.
If you still don't see, I don't think I can ever explain it to you.
Posted by: Marwynn Aug 9 2007, 04:38 PM
You know, you make it sound like I don't know that there's a BP cost behind it all when I've gone through two pages stating just that. In fact, my entire argument is that there is a better way to spend those resources.
Let's leave this as it is.
Posted by: James McMurray Aug 9 2007, 04:50 PM
You're the one that said you didn't see how 0 karma and 0 money wasn't the same as 0 cost. If you knew it wasn't the same, why say that you don't see it?
Posted by: Mr. Unpronounceable Aug 9 2007, 05:52 PM
| QUOTE (Ancient History @ Aug 9 2007, 03:15 AM) |
|
I don't normally disagree with Ancient, but I don't think this'd work: if you need stabilize you're not conscious, and if you're not conscious, you can't use a power. OTOH, it would let the mage cast a lot of healing spells in relatively short order, as long as he can handle the drain.
Posted by: Ancient History Aug 9 2007, 06:17 PM
Okay, not the best-thought-out example in the world.
[/edit]But the concept is sound. Would work for Antidote, Crank, Cure Disease, Detox, Heal, Healthy Glow, Intoxication, Nutrition, and Resist Pain.
Posted by: hyzmarca Aug 9 2007, 08:17 PM
Of course, there is the opposite problem with the the Focus Adept army. An enemy magician can simply cast Control Thoughts or Mob Mind, have the Focus Adepts sustain the mental manipulations, and repeat until the entire army is under the control of a single enemy magician. Periodic willpower tests make this more difficult, though there is the completely broken possibility of a magician using the spells to make sure that the targets never attempt to resist.
:vgem:
Posted by: Mr. Unpronounceable Aug 9 2007, 08:35 PM
Wouldn't work:
| QUOTE |
| Living Focus allows the adept to physiologically adjust his body to channel mana in order to sustain a spell cast solely on him |
"solely on him" eliminates the possibility of sustaining an area spell, or a spell that did not directly affect the adept.
And even if you used a single-target control thoughts/control actions to get the adept to sustain his own enslavement spell,
| QUOTE |
| Every (Force) Combat Turns, the victim may spend a Complex Action to shake off the mental control. The victim rolls a Willpower (+ Counterspelling) Test; each hit reduces the net hits on the caster’s original Spellcasting Test. If the spellcaster’s net hits are reduced to 0, the spell no longer affects the target. |
they just don't last all that long.
Posted by: hyzmarca Aug 9 2007, 08:56 PM
But there is that tricky word "may". May suggests a choice and a choice, particularly one that requires the character to spend an action, may be removed by a Control Manipulation.
Posted by: Demerzel Aug 9 2007, 09:08 PM
So, what you're saying is, if you successfully land a control manipulation and specifically order the target to not resist your spell then they just stop resisting?
Posted by: Moon-Hawk Aug 9 2007, 09:13 PM
You can't compel someone not to resist compulsion. Obviously the act of resistance supersedes the compulsion, and thus any commands not to resist the compulsion are also being resisted.
I see the logic behind it, and I don't claim that there's a rule explicitly forbidding it, but don't try it at my gaming table.
Posted by: James McMurray Aug 9 2007, 09:20 PM
You'd also have to know that they were capable of sustaining spells so you could order them to sustain the control. It's not impossible by any means, but neither is it a given.
Posted by: hyzmarca Aug 9 2007, 09:25 PM
Even if you cannot compel someone to resist compulsion, you can compel someone to spend all of their actions doing something other than resisting compulsion, since resisting compulsion is a complex, this would make it impossible for the character to resist the compulsion.
Posted by: Mr. Unpronounceable Aug 9 2007, 09:26 PM
I've always read the "may" as the target must either be aware they are being controlled, or be uninclined to follow the order.
So, for example the Suggestion spell makes the target believe it is his own idea. As long as it's reasonably subtle ("I need to go take a whizz") it would probably be unresisted after the initial spellcasting/resistance test. OTOH, a blatant command ("shoot your buddy") or the other spells Control Thoughts, and Control Actions are much more blantant - you know something's going on, and get the resistance tests as a matter of course.
Posted by: Moon-Hawk Aug 9 2007, 09:29 PM
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| Even if you cannot compel someone to resist compulsion, you can compel someone to spend all of their actions doing something other than resisting compulsion, since resisting compulsion is a complex, this would make it impossible for the character to resist the compulsion. |
Again, I respectfully disagree.
IMO you could order them to do something constantly, but every so often the opportunity to resist would come up and they could do so, if they wanted to. They would spend a complex action resisting and, assuming they failed, go back to whatever task you set them.
Although I would say that they don't have to resist if, for example, they'd rather use their complex actions for full defense or something.
But hey, as long as the group is clear on how it will be ruled there's no real problem either way.
Posted by: Demerzel Aug 9 2007, 09:31 PM
That feels like some sort of major flaw, and unrelated to the topic at hand, but here goes a little divergance...
If the caster gets to prevent you from resisting by using all your actions then you never really get a resist. I always assume that if some simple trick exists then it's SOP for everyone, so if all you have to do is order your target to use takeaim actions continually until you give him another order then they never have a chance to resist and therefore basically noone can ever resist...
If the subject gets to say, I'm using this complex action to resist, and they use all their complex actions thus, then control manipulations have no value because all they really do is delay someone.
Where is the middle ground here? And what does the rule say? Hummn...
Posted by: PlatonicPimp Aug 9 2007, 09:38 PM
The middle ground here is that for that to work you'd have to totally micromanage your controlled individual. Inefficient to say the least.
I take the DnD route that the target will make that resistance roll when compelled to do something against their nature. Players will want their characters back and make those resistance rolls at every opportunity, I chalk that up to "hero advantage". For NPCs they make resistance rolls when I, as gamemaster, think it appropriate. Far less frequently.
Posted by: James McMurray Aug 9 2007, 09:45 PM
| QUOTE (Demerzel) |
| Where is the middle ground here? And what does the rule say? Hummn... |
The middle ground is right where the rules are. He doesn't get to use all of his actions to resist because he is only allowed to resist once every (Force) combat turns. The caster doesn't get to take away those resistance rolls by giving him orders, because once every (Force) combat turns he's allowed to roll to resist orders.
Posted by: Demerzel Aug 9 2007, 09:59 PM
Yea, it's usually something simple like that...
Posted by: Marwynn Aug 9 2007, 10:08 PM
Actually you could read it the other way too. Since every Force turns he spends a complex action, for that turn whoever is controlling him may not be able to give an order.
But I'm of the school of thought that it's done before any orders are given, and is a complex action since he'll break out of it that turn.
Posted by: Demerzel Aug 9 2007, 10:46 PM
Well, no guarentee that the target succeeds at breakin it. Makes sense though to just have the target spend that action resisting and the caster doesn't get anything out of him until his next action...
Posted by: pbangarth Aug 9 2007, 11:18 PM
| QUOTE (James McMurray) | ||
How kind of you to spend someone else's karma for them. What if your character doesn't want to be a drain on his teammate's limited resources? |
Just to keep things straight, James, that was actually Marwynn who said that, not I.
Posted by: pbangarth Aug 9 2007, 11:35 PM
Swinging back to the topic.....
1)
It has been suggested that use of the Living Focus Power is problematic (to the point of metagaming) because it demands cooperation and planning on the part of the characters, with long-term goals affecting their choices in the moment.
This is a problem? 
If an adept were part of a long-term team, it could even make sense to eventually take the adept Power Pain Relief.
"Sure, go ahead and cast that spell with the horrid drain on me... I'll take away the pain you can't resist yourself."
2)
While there are some circumstances in combat where the Living Focus Power may be useful, I get the sense it would more often be used in other situations, or perhaps leading up to the actual fighting. Just one example might be the stealth/scout -oriented adept who is ensorcelled with Spatial Sense while the mage who did it to him projects to provide astral cover/scouting. I dunno... it seems like a plan to me.
Posted by: PlatonicPimp Aug 10 2007, 12:27 AM
I'm not saying it's a drawback per se, in any gaming sense. I'm just saying that most players, when making a character, prefer to make the character as self-sufficient as possible. It's the rare group where the players all design their characters together, and it's the rare player who chooses abilities to help other characters in ways other than fufilling their chosen role. I think requiring cooperation makes it unpopular not because cooperation is worse than self-sufficiency, but because most players don't work that way.
Posted by: James McMurray Aug 10 2007, 02:24 AM
| QUOTE (pbangarth) | ||||
Just to keep things straight, James, that was actually Marwynn who said that, not I. |
Sorry.
Posted by: James McMurray Aug 10 2007, 02:27 AM
Living Focus doesn't require much cooperation during character creation. All you need to know is that there will be a mage on the team with spells that are useful when sustained, whose persona is such that he would cast them on his teammates. Since most team mages will pick up at least one of Increased Reflexes, Improved Invisibility, Heal, etc. you're good to go. Assuming you know the people you're gaming with fairly well, you could possibly even buy the power without ever mentioning it, knowing it will be useful.
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