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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Negative Notoriety
Posted by: Wasabi Aug 9 2007, 08:16 AM
Does it ADD social pool dice and subtract from Intimidate checks?
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Aug 9 2007, 08:40 AM
There's no such thing as a negative stat in the game as far as I'm aware. If anything, it functions as a "Notoriety Hole" that can be filled with any Notoriety you gain in the future. At least that's how I'd treat it.
Posted by: Wasabi Aug 9 2007, 09:20 AM
Yeah, thats the way we do it too... I was just hoping for some backing for that in RAW via some obscure German-only official FAQ or something.
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Aug 9 2007, 09:22 AM
They tended to skip on really simple but blatant rule holes for some reason. So I wouldn't hold my breath on finding one; but it would be awesome if there were. 
Posted by: Ophis Aug 9 2007, 10:26 AM
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| There's no such thing as a negative stat in the game as far as I'm aware. If anything, it functions as a "Notoriety Hole" that can be filled with any Notoriety you gain in the future. At least that's how I'd treat it. |
With the exception of cyberzombies essence. Sorry feeling picky this morning.
Hmm Sociomancy, a powerful metamagic that allows someones startling lack of bad rep to aid them in social situations...
Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Aug 9 2007, 11:59 AM
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| There's no such thing as a negative stat in the game as far as I'm aware. |
..with the exception of Notoriety, which is not limited to 0.
A starting character with, say, Blandess will have a Notoriety of -1.
On the long run (pun intended), negative Notoriety is the only way of keeping a working character.
Posted by: Wasabi Aug 9 2007, 01:00 PM
Its a messy mechanic. So, uh... if it can be negative and someone wants to reduce their Public Awareness and have a Notoriety of 0 do they get a -1 after reducing it by 1 for lowering Public Awareness?
And yeah... 2 street cred have to be sold back but thats not part of my point.
Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Aug 9 2007, 01:04 PM
Actually, that's the only way of keeping your Public Awareness low per RAW.
Posted by: Lagomorph Aug 9 2007, 04:31 PM
I had just pretty much combined Street Cred and Notoriety onto the same number line, notoriety being a negative number, and street cred being a positive number.
Therefore, Negative notoriety would become street cred, negative street cred would be notoriety.
Posted by: Adarael Aug 9 2007, 05:55 PM
The Notoriety, Street Cred and Public Awareness rules are horribly broken if used as-is anyway. They basically say "No matter how clean your runs are, no matter how tight lipped your fixer is, and no matter how well you clean your trail so that only those 'in the know' are aware that The Jaguar did this... You'll eventually end up so that any schmoe on the street will recognize your face. Even if you've never shown it."
I've never gotten the impression those rules were meant to be used wholesale unless your GM couldn't think of a better way to hand out the respective rep points.
Posted by: NightmareX Aug 10 2007, 07:07 AM
I agree Adarael. It essentially becomes "death by popularity".
Posted by: Eryk the Red Aug 10 2007, 04:15 PM
If I ran a new campaign, I would start running all three stats like Notoriety is now, just awarding a point for each when a character does something that likely would increase it. Drawing a lot of attention publicly (in legal or illegal ways) might add Public Awareness. Doing something that might get you a negative rep gets you Notoriety. doing something that looks good professionally gets you Street Cred.
That'd work better for the way I play. Though I could see why some might not like it. Fiat to the max!
Posted by: Adarael Aug 10 2007, 06:25 PM
That's pretty much the only sensible way to do things. Look at it like this:
1) Characters do Harlequin's Back as their first run and manage to survive.
2) Characters go on to do some kind of massive matrix-based run series and survive, in the process ripping several small banks in third world nations. Because they're bastards.
3) Characters partake in a number of extractions, datasteals, etc, none of which they leave any trace at, nor do they ever show their face, and they kill all witnesses.
4) The Characters then proceed to do some black ops wetwork in the third world, and always get away scott-free.
Let's assume they get a total of 250 karma for these runs. By the letter of the RAW, they should have a street cred of 25, a notoriety of 0-2 (assuming they nether fuck up horribly nor do 'good deeds' - the bank deals tip them towards some notoriety), and a public awareness of 9.
This means that they are on the cusp of having McHugh's Happy Meal toys of them. Underwear with their images on it. TV Shows and cartoons. Yet there are problems with this:
In #1, the 70 karma or so the PCs earned shouldn't be counted, because nobody on earth knew it happened. Period. Harlequin, Frosty, and maybe those they told might know. But honestly, that 70 karma should be out the window. With #2, the matrix-based nature of the crimes means that if the runners got away with it and aren't in jail, nobody should put #2 together with any other run series. With #3, if they leave no trace and never show their faces, they could be any number of runner teams, unless someone has Distinctive Style or it's 3 troll girls who dress like hockey players. And with #4, do you really think what Joebob The Banana Republic Sec Guard thinks about who killed El Jefe is gonna impact the monoculture so heavily? Especially when it's just speculation?
There's a place for the rules as written, to be sure, but they just can't be used alone without tweaking unless you're playing a very particular game.
Posted by: Ophis Aug 11 2007, 11:11 AM
As a standard thing I run Street Cred on a sliding scale.
| CODE |
Karma Street Cred 0-9 0 10-29 1 30-59 2 60-99 3 100-149 4 150-209 5 210-279 6 280-359 7 360-449 8 |
And so on, each time you need ten more points than fro the last point.
Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Aug 11 2007, 11:33 AM
That only delays the problem.
Karma is Karma and Rep is Rep. Those stats aren't meant to be linked.
Posted by: Draconis Aug 12 2007, 06:34 AM
Hmmm I don't even know how to get notoriety. They're such odd rules but I do like some sort of rep mechanic just to keep "score".
Frank disassociates street cred from any sort of bonus dice. He just uses it as a meterstick to guage what kind of jobs we get offered. Good thing too as my street cred is 21.
Posted by: hyzmarca Aug 12 2007, 09:24 AM
| QUOTE (Adarael) |
| That's pretty much the only sensible way to do things. Look at it like this: 1) Characters do Harlequin's Back as their first run and manage to survive. 2) Characters go on to do some kind of massive matrix-based run series and survive, in the process ripping several small banks in third world nations. Because they're bastards. 3) Characters partake in a number of extractions, datasteals, etc, none of which they leave any trace at, nor do they ever show their face, and they kill all witnesses. 4) The Characters then proceed to do some black ops wetwork in the third world, and always get away scott-free. Let's assume they get a total of 250 karma for these runs. By the letter of the RAW, they should have a street cred of 25, a notoriety of 0-2 (assuming they nether fuck up horribly nor do 'good deeds' - the bank deals tip them towards some notoriety), and a public awareness of 9. This means that they are on the cusp of having McHugh's Happy Meal toys of them. Underwear with their images on it. TV Shows and cartoons. Yet there are problems with this: In #1, the 70 karma or so the PCs earned shouldn't be counted, because nobody on earth knew it happened. Period. Harlequin, Frosty, and maybe those they told might know. But honestly, that 70 karma should be out the window. With #2, the matrix-based nature of the crimes means that if the runners got away with it and aren't in jail, nobody should put #2 together with any other run series. With #3, if they leave no trace and never show their faces, they could be any number of runner teams, unless someone has Distinctive Style or it's 3 troll girls who dress like hockey players. And with #4, do you really think what Joebob The Banana Republic Sec Guard thinks about who killed El Jefe is gonna impact the monoculture so heavily? Especially when it's just speculation? There's a place for the rules as written, to be sure, but they just can't be used alone without tweaking unless you're playing a very particular game. |
In regards to the Harlequin's back, the PCs certainly make a huge and obvious impact in the various metaplanes that they visit and it is unlikely that they would try to hide their identities. Any spirit of Initiate visiting one of those metaplanes is likely to hear about the PCs. They return home and talk about what they've learned, and suddenly dozens of metaplanes and a good chunk of the magical community are abuzz with tales of the PCs' glory.
With regard to Matrix runs, their Icons will be famous even if they aren't. Everyone knows who Fastjack is even though no one knows who Fastjack is.
In regard to killing all witnesses and leaving no traces, the press will have a funny name for them, obviously, like the Boston Strangler or the Son of Sam and the Johnson's know how they are. The Johnsons exchange information with other Johnsons and other co-workers, basic shop talk, and brag to their mates in bed. Suddenly, everybody knows who you are.
As for third-world death squads, all of the important third-world death squads are commonly known by name. Most people may not know the names of individuals beyond the leaders, but they certainly know the names of the squads. So their team's name will be well known even if their individual names are unknown.
And there is the real problem with the mechanic. It abstracts discrete types of public knowledge into a single amorphous blob.
But I don't see why any Shadowrunner would dislike Public Awareness. Once your PA hits a certain point you can just sell the movie rights to your life and retire.
Posted by: Cursedsoul Aug 12 2007, 09:36 AM
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| [QUOTE=Adarael,Aug 10 2007, 01:25 PM] But I don't see why any Shadowrunner would dislike Public Awareness. Once your PA hits a certain point you can just sell the movie rights to your life and retire. |
Would you like some paparazzi on your pizza?
Posted by: Draconis Aug 12 2007, 01:47 PM
| QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Aug 12 2007, 09:24 AM) |
| But I don't see why any Shadowrunner would dislike Public Awareness. Once your PA hits a certain point you can just sell the movie rights to your life and retire. |
The problem is the PA curve. look at it this way the more and more famous you get the easier it is for joe average and that corp hit squad to find and recognize ya. Oh and then there's fans and such who will try and follow you around to see what you're up to or bask in your warm glow. "Death by popularity" NightmareX puts it. You likely never make it to the point where you can retire safely.
Physical mask spell and masking metamagic where the first things I started with. PA=0
Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Aug 12 2007, 01:48 PM
Having a Notoriety around -20 helps. too.
Posted by: Draconis Aug 12 2007, 01:57 PM
You know 0 is just as good.
WTF? I just reread the rules and working for a dragon gives you notoriety? Not cool.
Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Aug 12 2007, 01:59 PM
| QUOTE (Draconis) |
| You know 0 is just as good. |
Oh, no. With negative Notoriety, people on the street will underestimate you constantly.
Posted by: toturi Aug 12 2007, 02:28 PM
| QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig) | ||
Oh, no. With negative Notoriety, people on the street will underestimate you constantly. |
Is that how your GM reads it? All Notoriety does is modify your Street Cred and they affect your Social Skill rolls.
Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Aug 12 2007, 04:33 PM
Take a look how 'positive' Notoriety is defined and what it results in. 'Negative' Notoriety is the oposite:
The character is a Mr. Nice-Guy who can't scare anybody that knows him.
He's a jolly good fellow that gets along with everybody... and people just don't have to prove themselves in regards to him.
And once that white west got into the double digits, it's essentially teflon-coated by RAW.
What, he burned down an orphanage? No... that must have been an accident.
He shot somebody in the back? Silly, that was surely self-defense and he had a good reason.
Posted by: Adarael Aug 12 2007, 06:48 PM
| QUOTE |
| In regards to the Harlequin's back, the PCs certainly make a huge and obvious impact in the various metaplanes that they visit and it is unlikely that they would try to hide their identities. Any spirit of Initiate visiting one of those metaplanes is likely to hear about the PCs. They return home and talk about what they've learned, and suddenly dozens of metaplanes and a good chunk of the magical community are abuzz with tales of the PCs' glory. |
The problem being that none of those metaplanes are 'standard' metaplanes. I'm sure people get out there, but it's the exception rather than the rule. And the other thing is that the number of metaplanar voyagers on the earth is really, really small. It's a large number - maybe 1.5 million or so - but percentage wise, it's tiny. And what's more, how do you sort the natural affairs of a metaplane's legends ("I am being told stories of these people because I must learn to be a hero in my metaplanar journey") from actual events ("Holy shit, these were real people? From Hoboken!")? I'm not saying there should be no reflection of the event on the real world, but there should be no reflection of the event in terms of added dice for social rolls based on Joe the Fixer knowing you can bust some metaplanar ass to save the world from horrible nether-beasties. It's just not something that should ever factor into your public awarness stat sans other factors.
| QUOTE |
| With regard to Matrix runs, their Icons will be famous even if they aren't. Everyone knows who Fastjack is even though no one knows who Fastjack is. |
Sure. But as written, Public Awareness is Public Awarness - people know who you are, not who you want people to THINK you are. Which is my fundamental problem with it. If Fastjack introduced himself as a brand new decker named Flashfire, nobody would know who he is. By the written PA rules, people would go, "Naw, don't hide behind that icon! You're Fastjack!"
| QUOTE |
| And there is the real problem with the mechanic. It abstracts discrete types of public knowledge into a single amorphous blob. |
Yeah, that's pretty much what I'm saying in a nutshell. So we're not disagreeing, we're just talking the same jazz using different words.
| QUOTE |
| But I don't see why any Shadowrunner would dislike Public Awareness. Once your PA hits a certain point you can just sell the movie rights to your life and retire. |
In some cases, you're dead right. In others, it means the hit squads can find you.
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Aug 12 2007, 07:18 PM
The rules specifically state that the GM can lower a character's Public Awareness for "any exceptional efforts the character had made to keep her profile low and activities secret." It also states that the GM should increase it if a runner does anything too bold that gets them on the front page of a screamsheet. More than most rules, Public Awareness is fully dependant on the GM and player's roleplaying as far as the rules themselves go. The whole Cred+Notoriety/3 really is just a baseline idea rather than a hard rule in this case.
On the same token, nothing in those rules state that it applies to anything more than your runner persona. For a character like Fastjack, it really would only apply to his icon and name. Police and law enforcement do likely have dossiers about him, and he is practically a household name. That doesn't mean anyone knows who the man behind Fastjack is, but if his icon were to waltz into a public node, just about everyone would be left gawking and gossiping.
Ignoring all that, players have the option of burning their Street Cred to lower their Notoriety which, in turn, also lowers their Public Awareness. So there isn't a problem unless you're earning too much of one over the other.
Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Aug 12 2007, 09:52 PM
| QUOTE |
| Police and law enforcement do likely have dossiers about him... |
Well, as long as they keep them off line at least.
| QUOTE |
| players have the option of burning their Street Cred to lower their Notoriety which, in turn, also lowers their Public Awareness. |
Which annoys me immensly. Gaining notoriety or losing street cred to lower public awareness just makes no sense. Really , that little tweak about raising notoriety, then buring street cred to make the public less aware of you? How does that make sense. I think Public awareness is something that a GM should look at, and think about what is reasonable. Not what some ridiculous formula tells you.
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Aug 12 2007, 10:14 PM
I wasn't saying that I agreed with the principle, just that the "raw" (I do so hate that phrase) does acknowledge the potential problem and has a solution for it. Just not a very good solution.
Posted by: hyzmarca Aug 12 2007, 10:23 PM
| QUOTE (Adarael) |
| In some cases, you're dead right. In others, it means the hit squads can find you. |
Which is why, as you are gaining Public Awareness, you should advertise yourself to Johnsons and use your burgeoning image to leverage bigger and better jobs. If done right, by the time your PA reaches the point where hit-squads are after you you can afford to hire bodyguards of your own (which is kind is ironic if when you're doing bodyguard runs) and other forms of protection. You could even go so far as to make deals with the people who are sending hit squads after you for whatever reason.
And then you're hobnobbing with celebrates and dating royalty. Next thing you know you're at a Vegas chapel and Elvis Presley is eternally uniting you with the Grand Duke of Luxembourg.
Posted by: Ophis Aug 12 2007, 10:35 PM
I'm not marrying a frelling dwarf!!!!
I don't DO dwarves.
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