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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Orbital Movement
Posted by: Big D Aug 9 2007, 07:27 PM
Movement has been covered here several times, but I'm not sure that we've really taken the high ground into consideration, beyond things like making Mars trips shorter.
Now, as a disclaimer, I'd recommend against putting on a spacesuit and having a spirit use Movement+Levitate. That might get you to space, but you'd have no real orbital velocity (that would take like a F30 spirit), and would fall straight back down when you ran out of tasks. In addition, if a corp builds a rocket, it can't just plop a spirit inside and expect it to survive space without some big honking support spells or massive biosupport to generate a mana field.
That said, there do appear to be options. For starters, you could use Movement to rapidly get to the edge of the manasphere, at which point the spirit disembarks. This dramatically reduces the total atmospheric drag and shrinks fuel requirements (which has a multiplicative effect, as you can carry less tankage, which means less fuel, which...). However, if you can solve the problem of keeping a spirit safe and comfortable outside the manasphere, then Movement really opens up a can of worms.
For starters, Movement multiplies velocity, not accelleration. Therefore, the instant that the spirit drops Movement, the ship immmediately reverts back to its Newtonian velocity. So, while you could *get* to orbit, you couldn't stay there unless you kept Movement running the entire time, or accellerated to the point at which you could keep orbit without Movement--but in the meantime, Movement would have sent you halfway to the Moon.
Secondly, what happens when a ship under Movement closes with and gently docks with a station running in Newtonian mode? Or, for that matter, another ship running at a different Movement multiplier? Does the other body come under Movement for half a second, causing it to tear off the docking collar and spurt ahead? Do either or both bodies change their base or Movement speeds? And, once docking is complete, can Movement safely be dropped from the ship without (again) tearing both ship and station apart as the ship "drops out of warp"?
On a more grounded note, the same issues apply if you drive a car (*cough* KITT *cough*) with Movement up a ramp into a semi that also has Movement on. Mythbusters, alas, didn't have any handy bound spirits available to test that out on.
So, thoughts?
Posted by: Moon-Hawk Aug 9 2007, 07:34 PM
| QUOTE (Big D) |
| For starters, Movement multiplies velocity, not accelleration. Therefore, the instant that the spirit drops Movement, the ship immmediately reverts back to its Newtonian velocity. So, while you could *get* to orbit, you couldn't stay there unless you kept Movement running the entire time, or accellerated to the point at which you could keep orbit without Movement--but in the meantime, Movement would have sent you halfway to the Moon. Secondly, what happens when a ship under Movement closes with and gently docks with a station running in Newtonian mode? Or, for that matter, another ship running at a different Movement multiplier? Does the other body come under Movement for half a second, causing it to tear off the docking collar and spurt ahead? Do either or both bodies change their base or Movement speeds? And, once docking is complete, can Movement safely be dropped from the ship without (again) tearing both ship and station apart as the ship "drops out of warp"? |
But velocity is completely relative. What happens when you change your frame of reference?
To use your example, a ship is under the movement power and a space station is running in Newtonian mode. (I like the sound of that.) The ship docks. It's velocity (under the movement power) relative to the station is 0. It now drops the movement power, dividing it's velocity of 0 by the force of the spirit, so it's new velocity is 0, resulting in an instantaneous change in velocity of....0. Not really a problem.
Now what happens when a ship under the influence of the movement power changes it's frame of reference?
Posted by: Big D Aug 9 2007, 07:38 PM
Simple. You divide by 0 and the universe implodes.
Posted by: Wasabi Aug 9 2007, 07:39 PM
Wow... sounds like its straight from some sourcebook's sidebar. :-)
Posted by: otakusensei Aug 9 2007, 07:41 PM
I think it's all achademic until you get the spirit to perform Movement INTO a Level 10 Manawarp instead of THE HELL AWAY.
Wait a tick, was space a Manawarp or a Void? What book was that again?
Posted by: Seven-7 Aug 9 2007, 08:29 PM
Double post, crappy work connection.
Posted by: Big D Aug 9 2007, 08:31 PM
It's a -10 void now, but the difference is about the same as that between ph1 and ph12... both will kill a spirit very fast if it's not protected, just in different ways.
But if you want that Movement goodness in sustainable orbits... that's where the spirit has to go. Unless there's a way for the spirit to keep Movement up while staying safely inside the manasphere...
Posted by: Wasabi Aug 9 2007, 08:31 PM
Do multiple spirits using the Movement power each multiply the movement?
Note: Not really curious but its a funny mental picture: "JOE! Quick, re-bind engine #3!"
Posted by: Seven-7 Aug 9 2007, 08:34 PM
I don't have my books with me at the moment (Always a great start to a post about rules) but could you, in theory, use Levitate on another person then with a spirit service 'raise' the subject a few thousand feet before dropping the spell?
Posted by: Wasabi Aug 9 2007, 08:39 PM
Wow... a grappling fire spirit flying upwards burns the target on the way up until they break free and fall to their death.
WOW. I suddenly feel the need to play a summoner very, very badly. :-)
Posted by: Kyoto Kid Aug 9 2007, 08:47 PM
...gahh, all this talk of spirits and orbital velocity. I'll just stick to simple good ol' fashioned rocket science with simple good ol' fashioned rocket fuel.
.
| QUOTE (otakusensei) |
| Wait a tick, was space a Manawarp or a Void? What book was that again? |
| QUOTE (Big D) |
| It's a -10 void now |
...I knew it, they just had to nerf space as the last complete haven in the universe from magic.
Posted by: Adarael Aug 9 2007, 08:48 PM
In theory you could. Practically, you'd start running into LOS after a few hundred feet. But that's actually good enough for what you're looking for anyway.
Honestly, getting physics to kill people for you is sometimes easier than doing it yourself. People might say the first murder was Cain killing Abel with a rock, but I'm pretty sure a caveman pushed another caveman off a cliff or down a hill first.
Posted by: Seven-7 Aug 9 2007, 09:04 PM
Then I guess the next question is if the Spirit of Man can gain/have Movement. If so then I'll have to dig up my old Conjurer of Man.
Posted by: Big D Aug 9 2007, 09:09 PM
You're talking about an average flight speed of Force(spell)*Force(Movement)*(Force/3)(hits). So, a F6 Man could barely match the base speed of an Air.
Posted by: Seven-7 Aug 9 2007, 10:07 PM
Your thinking small, the Summoner of Man summons F12 SoM without a sweat.
Posted by: Kyoto Kid Aug 9 2007, 10:13 PM
...I''ll stick with a Vostok or a Proton. Old school stove bolt tech, but reliable & no drain backlash to worry about. 
Posted by: Big D Aug 9 2007, 10:15 PM
Yes, but imagine how much more payload you could carry on one if a spirit was backing it up...
And by "you", I mean "a corp".
Posted by: Seven-7 Aug 9 2007, 10:16 PM
12(Levitate Force)*12(Movement Power)*(Hits/3?)
144m/Pass then, at a min, pass is three seconds if I remember...We have 48m/s or roughly 158ft/s. To reach plane level (35,000 Feet, something even the most highly bod centered troll could not survive) it would take 221.518s, or 74 passes. On one success (If I'm reading what you're saying correctly.
Posted by: Seven-7 Aug 9 2007, 10:32 PM
On that same formula it would only take a optical (If that rule still persists in SR4) telescope of the 'target' (For LOS purposes) and you could have someone on the moon in 266,945.139 passes, or 9.26892844 days. I think thats faster than most ship travels to the moon, correct?
Posted by: WeaverMount Aug 9 2007, 11:12 PM
Apollo 11 launch July 16 1969, and passed behind Luna on July 19 1969. So thats a fair bit slower. Also could line the space elevator with fiber-optic cable and have ground mages/spirits chucking spells across the gravity well.
Posted by: otakusensei Aug 10 2007, 12:59 AM
A spirit taking you up to the edge of the manasphere would make it quite a bit easier to reach escape velocity. Has there been anything published on the upper height of the field versus low earth orbit?
Posted by: Kyoto Kid Aug 10 2007, 01:02 AM
| QUOTE (Big D) |
| Yes, but imagine how much more payload you could carry on one if a spirit was backing it up... And by "you", I mean "a corp". |
...A Proton can lift 22 metric tonnes into LEO (185 KM). I don't see a spirit really being able to improve much on that particularly when the vehicle with fuel and oxidant alone has a mass of 691 metric tonnes (Empty Mass 49.25 MT). Unless I'm mistaken (or again the rules were changed) spirit movement on vehicles only affects acceleration/deceleration and does not augment the max movement like it does for metahumans.
Beyond LEO (geostationary or transfer) it would be moot since the spirit would most likely not be around anymore having escaped the Earth's Gaiasphere.
Even larger than the Proton is the Energia which was discontinued after the fall of the Soviet Union. This massive booster, originally designed for lifting the Soviet Shuttle, could put a whopping 100 metric tonnes of payload into LEO 20, MT into geostationary, and 32 MT into Lunar trajectory. Before the project was terminated, there were plans for an even larger variant named the Vulkan-Hercules which would have been capable of placing a phenomenal 175 MT into LEO. (that's basically a fully loaded Airbus A-300)
...like to see a spirit try and dead lift that.
Posted by: Jaid Aug 10 2007, 01:24 AM
1) iirc, sustaining spirit powers does not require LOS. as such, the spirit doesn't ever have to go into the void, provided the target is in it's line of sight when it starts the power.
2) movement *does* have an affect on the capacity of those russian rockets. if movement increases it's speed by 4 times, for example, it will get to it's destination in 1/4 the time, thereby using up 1/4 the amount of fuel. when it comes to rockets designed to take you into space, 1/4 the amount of fuel is a *lot*
3) even if movement does only increase the accelleration, you can accellerate beyond the max as i recall. thus, movement would still increase the effective maximum speed of a vehicle.
that being said, the spirit movement power does not work by increasing speed. it just gets you from point A to point B "somehow". we don't really know how... it just does it. if i had to give you an explanation, i would say it shortens the distance somehow, without shortening the apparent distance (and yet somehow not increasing the apparent speed) to the people under it's effect.
what can i say, it's magic...
Posted by: Kyoto Kid Aug 10 2007, 01:49 AM
...it would still take one heck of a high force spirit to move even 45 MT (the empty weight of a Proton with payload). Or, is mass no longer a consideration?
As I understand the increase to vehicle acceleration was something like adding the Spirit's force. Also, it did not have an effect on the actual maximum speed of the vehicle, only in how quickly it was able to reach that speed. I do not have access to my PDFs at the moment (as I am at work) to actually research this.
Posted by: darthmord Aug 10 2007, 01:59 AM
Well, the BBB says on page 289 this about Movement (power)...
| QUOTE |
| Movement Type: P Action: Complex Range: LOS Duration: Sustained The critter may increase or decrease the subject's movement rate within the terrain it controls. Multiply or divide the target's movement rate by the critter's magic. |
So a Force 4 spirit with Movement could make ANYTHING move at 4x normal speed.
Given that a summoner can with some Karma and effort, get a Force 12-16 Ally...
That's some serious speed for orbital craft assuming the spirit can keep the target in LOS.
Posted by: Big D Aug 10 2007, 02:04 AM
Mass is no longer a consideration. Movement doesn't care what you're moving, under RAW. The only apparent limitation is that you can't use it to make the moon orbit any faster or slower, or move the earth, or else some fool would have.
Also, my understanding is that Movement does not increase accelleration at all--it simply multiplies velocity. This has its good points (easier to calculate and deal with), and its bad points (when you shut it off, you "lose" the extra velocity immediately, since your total Newtonian accelleration was still based on whatever you pumped out the back end).
So, it's not as simple as saying that Movement 4 gets you to orbit on 1/4 the fuel, because "orbit" isn't just a destination, it's a velocity vector. And unless you expect to leave Movement on the whole trip, or can safely absorb momentum from a station that you dock to, you're going to fall out of a stable orbit as soon as you drop the power.
However, if LOS isn't required to maintain Movement (and I think that's right), then the spirit could stay dirtside, and the limit would just be to how many services you can get--would "sit in the Ares HQ and keep Movement up on Z-O" count for the year-and-a-day service? That would make it almost too easy.
Posted by: Jaid Aug 10 2007, 02:05 AM
| QUOTE (darthmord) | ||
Well, the BBB says on page 289 this about Movement (power)...
So a Force 4 spirit with Movement could make ANYTHING move at 4x normal speed. |
fascinating... so basically, we need a void elemental or something? i dunno, maybe a toxic tradition has that... not sure what type of spirit you'd use as a base... maybe air with a lot of re-flavoring, swapping of powers, and swapping of optional powers...
at least we've managed to limit it until it hits the edge of the atmosphere (although your ally spirit doesn't have an associated terrain, so it just goes anywhere)...
Posted by: darthmord Aug 10 2007, 02:17 AM
Well, an Ally spirit can have any power that any spirit your tradition can summon is allowed to have. Makes thatm rather versatile.
Get yourself a decent Force Ally ( ~ Force 10 or so) and you can really crank out the mph.
Now on the prankster side of things... summon up a Force 2-4 spirit that has Movement and use it to slow an orbital launch... Oh drat! Your rocket is moving at 1/2 or 1/4 speed... Don't think ya will be launching that today, do ya?
Of course, this begs the question... is Movement stackable from multiple sources working together? If so, how? Additive or Multiplicative?
Posted by: Seven-7 Aug 10 2007, 02:23 AM
Thats 'raises the question' by the way.
But on the Movement note, I'd actually say 'Air' would be damn fine, as the only difference between space and air is the lack of oxygen. So hell, Air spirits would be terrain anywhere thats not on the ground or in water.
Posted by: neko128 Aug 10 2007, 02:31 AM
| QUOTE (darthmord) |
| Well, an Ally spirit can have any power that any spirit your tradition can summon is allowed to have. Makes thatm rather versatile. Get yourself a decent Force Ally ( ~ Force 10 or so) and you can really crank out the mph. Now on the prankster side of things... summon up a Force 2-4 spirit that has Movement and use it to slow an orbital launch... Oh drat! Your rocket is moving at 1/2 or 1/4 speed... Don't think ya will be launching that today, do ya? Of course, this begs the question... is Movement stackable from multiple sources working together? If so, how? Additive or Multiplicative? |
Yeah, "Begging the question" is the logical phalacy of assuming your conclusion as part of your argument; you meant "raises the question".
That would be more than a prank, though. I would imagine that, if most ships designed to escape the Earth's gravity suddenly were moving at 1/2-speed or worse, they'd run out of fuel before escaping... And - at least today - they really aren't designed to land. I guess that's really less true of a semi-ballistic or sub-orbital plane (they land on runways), but what're the odds they'll find an emergency landing zone?
Of course, if you're just feeling like a terrorist, take your force 4 spirit, make them move at 1/4 speed on launch until they're too low on fuel and have to abort; then, when they're trying to make an emergency landing, suddenly pump them to x4 halfway through. Probably wouldn't be many survivors. And of course, a big powerful toxic shaman terrorist would have much better than a force 4 hanging around...
So here's a question: is mana necessary only for magical beings and casting spells, or also for the effects of spells and powers? I mean, I admit I haven't read up on it in the rules like at all, but in my mind common sense would say that LOS to something in a void isn't enough - wouldn't the void interfere with the effect, too?
Posted by: Solomon Greene Aug 10 2007, 02:38 AM
| QUOTE (Seven-7) |
| Thats 'raises the question' by the way. But on the Movement note, I'd actually say 'Air' would be damn fine, as the only difference between space and air is the lack of oxygen. So hell, Air spirits would be terrain anywhere thats not on the ground or in water. |
A counterpoint.
Spirits don't work on literal or actual definitions. They work with the spiritual definition of a thing, place or idea - in that case, space and Air are very, very different.
It's not just about lack of oxygen, or location - it's about the intrinsic, metaphysical, nature of a thing - not just air, but Air.
Posted by: darthmord Aug 10 2007, 02:49 AM
Begs, raises, whatever. You guys still understood my point / question. Which I might add has not been answered. 
But yeah, on a terrorist angle, one can really screw people up with Movement. Then again, from a Law Enforcement perspective... it'd be rather easy to catch the perp if he's moving at 1/4 or 1/6th speed. Heck, even 1/2 speed would significantly turn the tables.
I can see it now...
Lonestar Joe: Shouldn't we chase the bank robbers?
Lonestar John: Nah, I've got my ally slowing them down. They aren't going anywhere fast. We have enough time to grab a donut and coffee.
Lonestar Joe: That's pretty slick John.
Posted by: darthmord Aug 10 2007, 03:01 AM
| QUOTE |
| neko128: So here's a question: is mana necessary only for magical beings and casting spells, or also for the effects of spells and powers? I mean, I admit I haven't read up on it in the rules like at all, but in my mind common sense would say that LOS to something in a void isn't enough - wouldn't the void interfere with the effect, too? |
Well, I'd have to say the void would reduce the Force of the effect by the value of the void since the effect is being powered by mana. If it's -10, then the Force of the effect would be 10 points less. This would mean you'd have to have a high Force spirit to counter the loss of power from the Movement effect.
Street Magic has something about casting in voids and such on Pages 119 & 120. IIRC, the example there was a guy casting a spell while on the Moon. The DV was Void value + Spell Force while the effect was based on Force with the spell being cast at Spellcasting + (Magic - Void).
The best way to see Voids & Ebbs (imo) is to imagine them as mana sponges. They are areas so deprived of mana that they pull mana away from whatever magical effect is within them. Hence the difficulty / drain of handling mana within a void/ebb. If you think of water in a desert, you aren't far off.
Posted by: Big D Aug 10 2007, 03:14 AM
Void kills spirits. You need some hefty protective spells to keep them alive in space. Fortunately, a high-powered ally is perfect for the job, because you only have to pay karma/edge *once* to get them forever, and in fact, because of the spell sustaining loophole, *you* can overcast the spells (astral armor? I forget which spell it was that protects against void), and the ally can sustain them--indefinitely--without losing -2 as if sustaining its own spell.
High-powered allies make excellent astronauts--if properly protected and with the right skills in their formula, they can do anything that a metahuman can do, but without taking up mass, using food, water, or oxygen. But then, high-powered allies are second only to CZs in the Chuck Norris department, and I wouldn't trust a billion-nuyen Mars mission to a CZ.
Posted by: Kyoto Kid Aug 10 2007, 06:42 AM
| QUOTE (darthmord) | ||
Well, the BBB says on page 289 this about Movement (power)...
So a Force 4 spirit with Movement could make ANYTHING move at 4x normal speed. Given that a summoner can with some Karma and effort, get a Force 12-16 Ally... That's some serious speed for orbital craft assuming the spirit can keep the target in LOS. |
...so "The Terrain it controls" is the key since no spirit controls the terrain of orbital or IP space.
Orbital space begins st 65 NM above the earth's surface. There really is no atmosphere at this altitude so a Spirit of Air would not work since it's element really doesn't exist anymore. Once the movement power ceases, the vehicle returns to it's own movement rate.So OK by the new ruling a Spirit could conceivably push a rocket.
BTW I still don't buy the fact that mass is no longer a factor, that makes the ability way to powerful for conceivably a force 2 air spirit can in a sense do the impossible, pushing a 600+ MT rocket (the Proton in my previous post) into Sub LEO. However, even given this glaring inconsistency (I don't care if it's "Magic"), the rocket would be on it's own to achieve a stable orbit and reach it's target once the spirit dissipated.
Of course I'm sure there will be more arguments for magic shooting this down as well.
Big D's assessment of powerful ally spirits being able to exist in space is truly scary for there would literally be no defence against such a being if it attacked an orbital facility.
I don't know, maybe I'm just getting burned out on the fact that Magic appears to becoming more and more the be all and end all to everything while tech is demoted to playing a more and more distant second fiddle. If I wanted to deal with that, I'd GM Earthdawn instead.
Posted by: hyzmarca Aug 10 2007, 07:22 AM
| QUOTE (Kyoto Kid) |
| ...so "The Terrain it controls" is the key since no spirit controls the terrain of orbital or IP space. Orbital space begins st 65 NM above the earth's surface. There really is no atmosphere at this altitude so a Spirit of Air would not work since it's element really doesn't exist anymore. Once the movement power ceases, the vehicle returns to it's own movement rate.So OK by the new ruling a Spirit could conceivably push a rocket. |
Remember that magic, including traditional Spirit Domains (which no longer exist) depend on metaphysical concepts more than they do on physical reality.
The Night Sky (The Tapestry of Stars, as opposed to the Wild Blue Yonder of the Day Sky) is conceptually equivalent to Outer Space. For this reason, one might consider Outer Space to be a corrupted Sky domain.
I acknowledge the mana void interpretation of outer space, but I don't agree with it. In former editions, it would be conceivably possible for a properly corrupted Toxic Shaman or Wujen to summon a Toxic Spirits from the many overlapping Toxic Domains that would presumably exist in outer space. The void interpertation means that sterility, radiation, and vacuum toxics have the same difficulty summoning in Space that everyone else does, which allows one to generally soften Toxics while still making space scary for mages, but loses some of the flavor of there being inhuman alien spirits living out there in inhuman alien domains.
Posted by: Big D Aug 10 2007, 07:36 AM
I think some of the problem is that there are huge karma sinks, but no hard caps. So, while RAW works perfectly fine for anything that low-level runners should be capable of doing, a prime runner mage who saved up a couple hundred karma can get Chuck Norris as an ally. And then, if they get a couple hundred more karma, do it again.
And, given the assumption that the corps have a lot more power, resources, and interest in bleeding-edge capabilities, you start asking why corps *don't* have spirits doing everything from making supertankers run at near-mach speeds to providing orbital lift to mass production of orichalcum to allies inhabited into jarheads serving as corporate prime rigger/hackers.
That's where it starts to break down. Because if you follow RAW, you get a world where the use of high-powered spirits, while numerically rare compared to the size of the overall economy, is almost certainly the highest-profile part of a nation's or corp's infrastructure. Which tends to lead to something more like magocracies than we actually see.
Posted by: hyzmarca Aug 10 2007, 07:58 AM
| QUOTE (me) |
| All kidding aside, it only takes a force 24 spirit with 32 successes on an Force 48 Astral Armor spell to withstand the void reliably. It is extremely unlikely to summon such a spirit but it is not beyond possibility. |
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=15287&hl=space,and,damage&st=100
Posted by: darthmord Aug 10 2007, 12:55 PM
| QUOTE (Big D) |
| I think some of the problem is that there are huge karma sinks, but no hard caps. So, while RAW works perfectly fine for anything that low-level runners should be capable of doing, a prime runner mage who saved up a couple hundred karma can get Chuck Norris as an ally. And then, if they get a couple hundred more karma, do it again. And, given the assumption that the corps have a lot more power, resources, and interest in bleeding-edge capabilities, you start asking why corps *don't* have spirits doing everything from making supertankers run at near-mach speeds to providing orbital lift to mass production of orichalcum to allies inhabited into jarheads serving as corporate prime rigger/hackers. That's where it starts to break down. Because if you follow RAW, you get a world where the use of high-powered spirits, while numerically rare compared to the size of the overall economy, is almost certainly the highest-profile part of a nation's or corp's infrastructure. Which tends to lead to something more like magocracies than we actually see. |
If you think about it for a few moments, you'll realize why magocracies haven't resurfaced yet...
Remember, 2 cycles ago, you had just that. Magic ruled/run empires. At what point during the 4th cycle? The middle and late portions.
Magic in the 6th world is only recently resurfaced. 2012 was when it happened (IIRC my SR history). We're only now into 2070.
Do you really expect that magocracies would reappear in 58 years? I would expect that to take a few hundred or maybe even a thousand years to happen. Human societal change normally happens at a pace a bit slower than most glaciers move.
As for why corps haven't gone down that road yet... are you so certain they haven't? Then again, corporate bureaucracy may simply be slow to change to new methods based on old methods working perfectly fine. Look at the fluff. You'll several examples of "new methods / ideas" being squashed.
Posted by: neko128 Aug 10 2007, 02:19 PM
| QUOTE (darthmord @ Aug 10 2007, 07:55 AM) |
Do you really expect that magocracies would reappear in 58 years? I would expect that to take a few hundred or maybe even a thousand years to happen. Human societal change normally happens at a pace a bit slower than most glaciers move. |
Yes, yes I would. For reference, search for "Ghostwalker + Denver" on NeoGoogle 2.0, or whatever the popular search engine is in 2070; and he's not even the most powerful mage on the planet, let alone the scariest group of mages. Great Dragon or not, there are more frightening people out there. We're not talking society re-learning magic in 58 years; we're talking people who had centuries of practice before magic dropped suddenly getting their powers back in a world that doesn't 100% understand what's hitting them.
Anyway, a few places come close; besides Denver, there's Tir Tairngire, Tír na nÓg, Aztlan/Aztechnology (is there really a difference?), and Brazilia. None of them are pure mageocracies, arguably, but they certainly all have aspects of it. I'm just surprised they haven't made it go further.
*EDIT* - fixed mis-placed quote tag.
Posted by: Kyoto Kid Aug 10 2007, 03:02 PM
...this is what I mean. What I thought was going to be an interesting thread on technology of space travel in SR derails into yet another unrelated discussion on magic.
...maybe we need a SR Techno forum where only topics on Technology are discussed.
Posted by: neko128 Aug 10 2007, 04:17 PM
| QUOTE (Kyoto Kid) |
| ...this is what I mean. What I thought was going to be an interesting thread on technology of space travel in SR derails into yet another unrelated discussion on magic. ...maybe we need a SR Techno forum where only topics on Technology are discussed. |
Well, the original poster asked about spaceships under the influence of the Movement power, so your misinterpretation of the subject vs. the actual topic discussed can't be blamed on us.
Posted by: Kyoto Kid Aug 10 2007, 04:35 PM
...I was referring mainly to the Magocracy tangent.
Posted by: Jaid Aug 10 2007, 04:59 PM
why would you end up with magocracy when as a result of the mages doing all the work?
the people doing all the work are not generally the people running things 
so sure, mages can do all sorts of awesome stuff. and that stuff keeps them on the front lines.
you don't (or shouldn't) make someone a general because they are a skilled warrior... you keep your skilled warriors on the front lines where they can do what they do best. you (should) make someone a general because they have a keen mind, an eye for planning/tactics/strategy/logistics/whatever, because people will gladly follow them, etc.
so yes, a mage can save a corporation a lot of money with their abilities (as well as making a lot money in other ways). but hey, that just makes them effective workers... and being an effective worker only gets you so far. if you're not good at managing, you're not going to make it very far in management, no matter how good you are at actually doing the jobs of the people you're managing.
Posted by: Wasabi Aug 10 2007, 05:00 PM
Magicracies will appear when the voting populace are primarily mages. Until then people value greed and self-advancement over dictatorial powers.
Posted by: Big D Aug 10 2007, 05:21 PM
I'll try...
Is there anything anywhere that gives a ballpark number on what it takes to build a manasphere?
That said, if you have corp cash, it shouldn't be too hard, especially if you're using Movement to boost SSTOs into orbit carrying modules and supplies. Bigelow is doing a good job IRL of proving that useful cube is cheap and easy to create, and useful plants are not very dense. Just add modules as needed, and integrate the plants into the whole life support system so that they're automatically cared for. Lots of hydroponics and genetically engineered plants are the order of the day. Heck, you might have to import a lot of CO2-producing bacteria or something if you have too few metahumans on board (since we tend to require large ongoing amounts of mass to support us, we're less efficient than bugs for this purpose).
So, once you have your station built and outfitted with sufficient greenery that your spirits won't go poof, you use Tele^H^H^H^H Metaplanar Shortcut (or fresh summons) to get them up there, bypassing the void. Then, they can use their spells, powers, and (for allies) skills to really speed up the construction process. Once a corp with a few loyal mages and their high-powered allies gets going, they'll be able to exploit the whole solar system. I'd expect a considerable race for spirit-aided space travel at that point--the advantages (mostly, but not just Movement--see OP) swing the economics from speculative to wildly profitable.
I looked around before starting this thread, and found a good one back in February that covered space travel with "living ships"; ships that have their own manasphere. At the extreme end, you get something that looks a tad Juraian; but that isn't necessary to tool around in the solar system. With a spacefaring mage and an ally or two, plus other spirits on tap, you can pretty well run a high-cube/low-mass ship around wherever you want in a reasonable timeframe on a reasonable fuel budget (particularly if you posit the existence of working nuclear salt water rockets, fusion-powered VASIMR, reasonable antiproton production and storage, or plasma sails).
Here's a thought for you--if you can conventionally accellerate to significant (.05c-.10c) reletavistic speeds, can Movement break lightspeed? I know that Frank in particular has described Movement as something like magical time dilation, so I'd say yes.
Posted by: otakusensei Aug 10 2007, 05:29 PM
I'm at work, but was it Target: Wastelands that gave info on space and habitats? There's a bunch on the Wiki too. I remember a bit from somewhere about Ares using a space station with a weak manafield to attack The Hive.
Seemed like the spirits and all magic was effected by the strength of the field. This could mean that there isn't an upper limit to earth's gaiasphere, so much as there is a tapering off and a subsequent tapering of the effectiveness of any magical effects.
If that was the case a spirit of great power might not be able to maintain Movement at a reasonable distant to make an appreciable different in lift. You'd think with magic and space travel being around as long as they have been, someone would have gotten chocolate in the peanut butter by now.
Posted by: Lagomorph Aug 10 2007, 08:08 PM
| QUOTE (Kyoto Kid) |
| Orbital space begins st 65 NM above the earth's surface. There really is no atmosphere at this altitude so a Spirit of Air would not work since it's element really doesn't exist anymore. Once the movement power ceases, the vehicle returns to it's own movement rate.So OK by the new ruling a Spirit could conceivably push a rocket. BTW I still don't buy the fact that mass is no longer a factor, that makes the ability way to powerful for conceivably a force 2 air spirit can in a sense do the impossible, pushing a 600+ MT rocket (the Proton in my previous post) into Sub LEO. However, even given this glaring inconsistency (I don't care if it's "Magic"), the rocket would be on it's own to achieve a stable orbit and reach it's target once the spirit dissipated. |
It could work that rather than using movement on the craft, you could use movement on the reaction mass exiting the rocket. Which as nebulous of an object as that is, it is still something that a spirit could increase the velocity of. THat would certainly up your payload limits with out causing problems in the end when the spirit can't continue.
As for mass, as much as I would like to go into that it's no longer a factor. I have to just say "it's magic" just the way that all of the other magic spells violate the basic laws of physics, other wise I'll end up in a corner crying.
Posted by: Kyoto Kid Aug 10 2007, 08:17 PM
| QUOTE (Lagomorph) |
| As for mass, as much as I would like to go into that it's no longer a factor. I have to just say "it's magic" just the way that all of the other magic spells violate the basic laws of physics, other wise I'll end up in a corner crying. |
...which is why I already am.
(sorry, just an old fashioned physicist at heart)."it's magic" - the ultimate handwave.
Posted by: Moon-Hawk Aug 10 2007, 08:20 PM
| QUOTE (Lagomorph) |
| It could work that rather than using movement on the craft, you could use movement on the reaction mass exiting the rocket. Which as nebulous of an object as that is, it is still something that a spirit could increase the velocity of. THat would certainly up your payload limits with out causing problems in the end when the spirit can't continue. |
No good. I'm pretty sure movement doesn't increase inertia/kinetic energy/momentum/etc, just velocity, (meaning the Newtonian equations fail) otherwise you use it on bullets to shoot through aircraft carriers.
So your reaction mass would be moving faster, but it wouldn't give you any more thrust.
Posted by: Lagomorph Aug 10 2007, 08:25 PM
| QUOTE (Moon-Hawk) | ||
No good. I'm pretty sure movement doesn't increase inertia/kinetic energy/momentum/etc, just velocity, (meaning the Newtonian equations fail) otherwise you use it on bullets to shoot through aircraft carriers. So your reaction mass would be moving faster, but it wouldn't give you any more thrust. |
I suppose that you're correct in that, well back to my "it's magic" fox hole, my eyes are welling up now...
Posted by: WeaverMount Aug 10 2007, 08:55 PM
What is the thrust limit of Psychokinesis? You could lift the ships out of the gravity well using a verity of magics. Then you could use Psychokinesis to (very, very) slowly accelerate indeffinately. In zero-g a spirit with a Psychokinetic strength of 12+ could barely move a mega-ton ship, but they could just keep on keeping on until they reached whatever speed you wanted. Also think about how much redundancy you could remove with Guard.
I'm imagining huge biosphere/ arcano-ships on interplanetary orbits with nano-fabs cranking out SOTA mining and construction drones and droppping them off all over the solar system.
Posted by: Big D Aug 10 2007, 08:55 PM
Correct. That's already been hashed out here plenty of times. Movement is a handwavy time-dilation effect that somehow makes things move faster but yields no increased inertia (no super bullets, spaceships slow back down instantly once Movement is dropped), but yet also yields no increased IPs, Perception bonuses, or anything else that you'd expect from time dilation.
It multiplies velocity without doing *anything* else. Which makes no sense at all, unless you're trying to keep a useful game concept from becoming a game-wrecker.
Posted by: Adarael Aug 10 2007, 10:55 PM
You ever see any of those horror movies where the evil critter or ghost suddenly 'pops' forward by a couple of feet without moving? I think it happened near the end of The Ring, by way of reference...
I've always run Movement working like that. The extra distance you're covering is basically just short range little 'blip' jumps in space. Because that's the only way I could rationalize vehicles not burning up and exploding when they get movement used on them, or a movement-affected street sam not wearing his shoes out in a hurry.
Posted by: hyzmarca Aug 11 2007, 12:04 AM
I take the rules of the Movement Power as a simplification of a complex vector addition formula.
The basic idea is simple. If your walking along the a flat ground at a constant velocity then your velocity can be measured as <a,b>, a 2D vector. However, what if this ground is a conveyor belt and as you walk along it it starts moving. Your velocity relative to the conveyor belt will still be <a,b> but your velocity relative to things not on the conveyor belt will be <a,b> + <x,y> where <x,y> is the velocity of the conveyor belt.
Now, let us assume that you are moving along with the conveyor belt in the exact same direction as the belt. In this case, it will be true that <x,y> = S<a,b,> where S is a scaler.
From this we can derive :
<a,b> + <x,y> = <a,b> + S<a,b> = (S+1)<a,b>
In regards to the movement power, S always equals (M-1) where M = the critter's Magic.
Thus, V= M<a,b> is the simplified form for the Movement vector addition equation.
This can again be expanded to (M-1)<a,b> + <a,b> = <x,y> + <a,b>
Thus <x,y> = <(M-1)a,(M-1)b> = <Ma, Mb> - <a,b>
Therefore
<a,b> + <x,y> = <a,b> + <Ma, Mb> - <a,b> = <Ma,Mb> = M<a,b>
Thus, you can see how the movement power is simple vector addition brought about by magical alteration of the terrain.
Acceleration is not altered because SR4 does not model acceleration at all. Objects and people in SR4 do not have rates of acceleration, they simply have Movement Rates, which are static velocities.
In dealing with movement in the atmosphere, this is not unreasonable. There are simply too many forces acting on a body to accurately model in an RPG such as this. And, honestly, I don't want to spend $80 on a 3000-page supplement consisting of nothing but drag and a friction coefficient tables.
In space, there are very few forces working on a body, so it is substantially more difficult to overlook fudging. However, the fact that space travel is so rare in SR makes the production of a realistic calculus-based movement model somewhat frivolous.
Posted by: Adarael Aug 11 2007, 01:11 AM
I hate you, Hyzmarca.
I read that and read it again, and read it a third time, and I know what it is that you're saying...I just can't read the form that you're saying it in.
I have 'incompetent: math", I swear.
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