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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Smartlink question

Posted by: Prime Mover Aug 13 2007, 01:05 PM

Posted by: Dashifen Aug 13 2007, 01:37 PM

1: You would suffer the normal penalties for termo vision in a dark hall way and get the bonus from the Smartlink.

2: I would apply all penalties for environmental conditions to this test as well.

-- Removed, as I was proven wrong --

Posted by: neko128 Aug 13 2007, 01:39 PM

As per page 311 of the BBB, the "small camera" that's installed on the gun can be equipped with vision enhancement. That would imply that, by default, it isn't.

Posted by: Prime Mover Aug 13 2007, 01:40 PM

Guess to clarify question, does using smartlink in examples nullify your personal vision enhancements? And if so whats the fix?

Posted by: neko128 Aug 13 2007, 01:47 PM

QUOTE (Prime Mover)

Guess to clarify question, does using smartlink in examples nullify your personal vision enhancements? And if so whats the fix?

Logically, if it's the smartgun system that's highlighting enemies, then it would only work against enemies it detects. Based on that, you could make a good argument that it simply doesn't get the smartgun bonus against anything which the gun's camera can't see (keeping in mind that, if it's shipping you video data, there's no terribly good reason why you can't ship it video data if your vision is better and has the same FoV).

This brings up the interesting question - is it a viable option to install vision enhancements in the gun, and then use those to negate vision penalties rather than your own eyes? Lets say you had smart-goggles with smartlink and image link. Now say that the gun's camera has been upgraded with thermo and low-light, but neither you nor your goggles have. The gun projects a window into your vision detailing what it sees - and in this case, is there a good reason why it shouldn't be an overlay showing enhanced vision?

Never thought about these implications before.

Posted by: Dashifen Aug 13 2007, 01:55 PM

Well ... color me embarassed Thanks, neko!

Posted by: neko128 Aug 13 2007, 01:59 PM

QUOTE (Dashifen)

Well ... color me embarassed

Thanks, neko!

Nothing to be embarassed about. I'm not a writer or dev; it's entirely possible they'll come here and start pointing and laughing at my answers.

Posted by: Buster Aug 13 2007, 02:00 PM

If all a smartgun link is doing is putting crosshairs or object highlighting, then why does a smartgun system cost essence/capacity? If it isn't using your cyberware image systems and all the processing is done on the smartgun accessory, can't you just use an image link instead of a smartgun link and get all the features of the image link too? In other words, what good is a cyberware smartgun link?

Posted by: Prime Mover Aug 13 2007, 02:01 PM

In almost all cases you can argue that smartlink simply puts crosshair onto your normal augmented vision. Trouble comes when using weapon for fire around corners and such.

Posted by: Jaid Aug 13 2007, 02:04 PM

QUOTE (Buster)

the same reason you might choose to have cybereyes instead of wearing contacts, glasses, or goggles (well... provided you're not a mage, the same reasons anyways)

Posted by: Ed_209a Aug 13 2007, 02:43 PM

QUOTE (Prime Mover)

Example #1: I'm in dark hall I have therm, using smartlink. Will smartlink work I can see my target but can the smartlink?

Example #2: Hunkered down behind a wall, holding Predator up over wall using smartlink to fire into light smoke,rain in dim light.

Question does my smartlink need vision enhancements? Can put smartlink on scope with enhancements?

Regarding Buster's comment, the essence comes from the DNI functions, IMO. Anything you can push a lever to do on today's firearms, you can do mentally with a smartgun.

A good question would be what would be the difference between full-cyber SG and smartgoggles and a trode net.

I have always thought that smartguns used an invisible laser beam, and the eye/goggle part just located the laser spot and painted a FPS-like reticle around it.

If this is correct, then the gun can almost always see its dot, even if you can't see what the dot is on.

I would say the camera only comes into effect when shooting around corners.

Posted by: Buster Aug 13 2007, 03:43 PM

QUOTE (Jaid)

QUOTE (Buster @ Aug 13 2007, 09:00 AM)

the same reason you might choose to have cybereyes instead of wearing contacts, glasses, or goggles (well... provided you're not a mage, the same reasons anyways)

No because you still have to put a smartgun system in your gun, no matter if you have a cyber smartgun link or a goggle smartgun link. What the heck is the smartgun link doing if the smartgun system on the gun is doing all the work?

Posted by: eidolon Aug 13 2007, 03:52 PM

Echo Prime Mover and Ed. The only reason for putting image enhancements onto the gun are for using the gun cam to fire around corners (or in other situations where you are not or can not use your own eyes to view the target).

If you're in a dark hallway, but you can see the target using vision mods in your eyes/contacts/goggles/glasses, then you see the target and can use a SL on it.

If you are pointing your gun around the corner down a dark hallway, and your guncam has image enhancements, you can see the target, assuming you manage to point the weapon at it. I would not grant SL bonuses, for reasons outlined below.

QUOTE (neko128)

then it would only work against enemies it detects

SL has never been a magical target acquisition system, I don't see why it would start now. If you can't "detect" an enemy, you can't point the gun at it to see whether the SL "detects" the enemy.

As to using just the gun cam with image enhancements to acquire and fire on targets, it could work, but you wouldn't be getting a SL bonus, for the same reason that you shouldn't when using the gun cam for firing around a corner.

(The SL depends on being able to show you, in your natural (your eyes, regardless of modification; we're talking about where the front of your head is pointing) field of vision, where the muzzle of the weapon is pointing. If the gun and field of vision, provided by the gun cam, are moving around in tandem, then the SL can no longer show you where it's pointing in that field of vision, since the device providing the feedback to generate the crosshair is also moving around with the muzzle of the weapon.

To see what I mean, first hold your hand out palm up. That's your normal field of vision (with or without vision mods). Now, move your other index finger around on your palm. That's the SL, which is fixed to your weapon, showing you where the muzzle is pointing.

Now, hold out your hand palm up, and place your finger in the center. Then, move them both around, but keeping your finger in the center of your palm. That's what happens when you stick your weapon around a corner, or otherwise depend on a field of vision being provided by a weapon-mounted imaging system.

I have seen a lot of other interpretations, but none of them are sufficiently backed by rules or fluff, in any edition, for me to consider them viable. That doesn't mean they don't work or aren't cool options, just that I don't agree and that this is my interpretation.)

Posted by: Buster Aug 13 2007, 03:55 PM

That's what the smartgun system on the gun is doing. What is the smartgun link in your goggles or cybereyes doing?

Posted by: eidolon Aug 13 2007, 03:57 PM

Displaying, in your vision, the information provided by your SL: namely, the crosshair, ammo count, whatever else is there. By itself, when you're not holding a weapon with a smartgun system? It's not doing anything.

If you get a chance, take a look in Man & Machine. It breaks down the individual components of the Smartlink system and describes the part they play in the overall picture. (For example, if you had a 3e character with an Image link, then you didn't need the part of the Smartlink system that went in your eyes, since you already had it.)

Posted by: Buster Aug 13 2007, 04:05 PM

So if you have an image link you don't need a smartgun link? But isn't a smartgun link a lot more expensive than a smartgun link? (i think it's more essence too, but i'm away from books right now) Why in the world would someone buy a smartgun link when an image link does the same job but gives lots more features and for a lower price?

Posted by: eidolon Aug 13 2007, 04:13 PM

Keep in mind that I'm talking about 3rd edition stuff, and that the breakdown of components, if it's not in Augmentation (I don't know if it's in Aug or not, since I haven't had time to read it yet) and it's slated for SR4 at all, is likely going to be in Arsenal.

I expect it to be much the same as it was in M&M, but right now, use what I'm saying strictly as reference material for my position on SL bonuses when using weapon-mounted imaging systems.

Posted by: DireRadiant Aug 13 2007, 04:15 PM

QUOTE (Buster)

There are two parts to any smartgun system.

Gun part + Vision Part

or

You must buy p.111 Smart Gun system + you must buy p. 324 Smart Link

You must buy Image Link to use a Smart Link (p. 324 "Requires an image link.")

Posted by: Ed_209a Aug 13 2007, 04:19 PM

With a smartgun and an image link, I think you would get the reticle, but that is all. Without the simsence elements of the SG system you have little more than a really expensive laser sight.

Realisticly, you would have more than the +1 die for a regular laser sight, but not enough to qualify for the +2 for a SG link. 1.4 lets say. Rounds down to 1.

What the SG link has over the Image link is the DNI interface. The gun goes "bang!" when you think "Bang!" not when you pull the trigger (though you could probably pull the trigger too).

Posted by: DireRadiant Aug 13 2007, 04:26 PM

There's no difference between implanted smartlinks and smartlinks in other devices except that with an impanted cyberlink you can in fact fire with a mental command, because implanted cyberware comes with DNI.

Otherwise there is no other modifier between an implanted smartlink vessus one in your glasses.

Posted by: Crusher Bob Aug 13 2007, 04:28 PM

As for why the smart link takes essence: try this explanation on for size

The smartlink does much more than simply place a reticle over the target. If it were that simple an aimpoint sight would provide the same bonus. Try closing your eyes and touching the tip of your nose with the tip of your finger. You can do it right? It there any though involved? Did you have to go through any careful, last minute manuvering to brign your finger into contact with your nose? Nope. The smart link makes shooting people just like touching your nose. There is no targeting reticle in your vision. You have a smart link, you know where your weapon is going to hit.

Posted by: DireRadiant Aug 13 2007, 04:28 PM

QUOTE (Ed_209a)

With a smartgun and an image link, I think you would get the reticle, but that is all.

Smartlinks require an Image Link. Says so in the book, p. 124.

Therefore I rashly conclude an image link by itself does not provide any targeting bonus, even if you have a smartgun system on your gun.

Of course, you can conclude there are advantages to poking your gun around a corner and seeing what's there without exposing yourself.

Posted by: DireRadiant Aug 13 2007, 04:32 PM

Smartlinks take essence only if implanted, and only if implanted when the capicity exceeds the device they are implanted into.

You can implant a smartlink by itself, this costs essence because it is implanted.

If you have cybereyes, they have 4 capacity, and a smartlink option takes three capacity, there is no extra essence in this case. Exactly like a whole bunch of other visual system implants. It is no different then adding Flare COmpensation or Low Light to cybereyes.

Posted by: DireRadiant Aug 13 2007, 04:34 PM

Note that getting Low Light cyber implant costs essence. Why does this costs essence? Whatever you argue for a direct low light cyber implant costing essence applies to the smart link implant.

Posted by: Crusher Bob Aug 13 2007, 04:34 PM

Yes, well. Was much happier when the smartlink required a limited simsense rig to give the whole bonus.

Posted by: Buster Aug 13 2007, 05:04 PM

Since the smartgun link doesn't do anything that the smartgun system on the gun plus an image link on goggles/cybereyes don't do, is the fantastically high price and essence/capacity of the smartgun link a typo? Shouldn't the smartgun link be at least half the cost/capacity of an image link since it does so much less?

Posted by: eidolon Aug 13 2007, 05:21 PM

My guess is that Arsenal will answer the questions regarding gear and what does what.

Posted by: neko128 Aug 13 2007, 05:55 PM

Okay. There's a bunch of comments flying around here that strike me as wrong, so in an effort to clarify things... Here's the text for the Smartgun system (BBB pg 311):

QUOTE

The smartgun system connects a firearm
or projectile weapon directly to a user’s smartlink (see p.
323). It incorporates a laser range finder and a small camera,
and keeps track of ammunition, heat buildup, and material
stress. It allows a smartlinked character to mentally switch between
gun modes, eject clips, and fire the gun without pulling the trigger. The camera allows for targeted shooting around
corners, without exposing oneself to return fire.

The system makes use of advanced calculation software,
allowing the user to aim even weapons with a highly ballistic
firing arc (like grenades) with tremendous precision over
any distance. The smartgun system can also be accessed via
wireless link, allowing for the gun to be remotely fired or to
block the trigger (in case an opponent gets ahold of it). When
used with a smartlink, it provides a +2 dice pool bonus on the
ranged attack test.

Retrofitting a firearm with an internal Smartgun system
doubles the weapon’s price. An external smartgun system can
be attached to the top mount or underbarrel mount with an
Armorer + Logic (4, 1 hour) Extended Test. The small camera
can be equipped with vision enhancements (p. 323).

And here's the text off the Smartlink (BBB, pg. 323):

QUOTE

This accessory interacts with a smartgun
system (p. 311) to project the weapon’s angle of fire into
the user’s vision, centering red crosshairs where the user is
pointing and highlighting perceived targets. The smartgun’s laser rangefinder also calculates and displays the distance
to the target. Additional data from the weapon, such as the
ammunition level, heat buildup, and stress can also be displayed.
Requires an image link.

Soooo... The Smartgun mods to a weapon include a camera, a laser rangefinder, and enough tie-ins to link ammo state, firing mode, barrel stress, safety, and trigger function to a remote client. The Smartlink system allows you to 1) control the above functions, and 2) project the camera's FoV/targetting reticle into your image link.

So to Eidolon, actually, it is very similar to a "magical target acquisition system", in the sense that the gun/link system will flag any targets it recognizes, whether or not they're in your FoV.

To ED_209a, it does have a laser, but it's a rangefinder. In theory, anything that would obscure the laser would interfere in part with the Smartgun/link's operation, but to a large extent that'd just be short-range trajectories on things like Grenade Launchers, or very long-range shots (it takes a bit of distance for the ballistics on a bullet to drop it enough to cause a significant inaccuracy).

The part which isn't clear is the "advanced software" bit; and by my interpretation, this is why it costs essence/capacity. The Smartgun system says "Okay, this gun is now operable remotely via Smartlink, plus it has a nifty camera and laser rangefinder". If the processing center and software were in the Smartlink itself, it'd explain why it's separate and significant in terms of implanting...

Though I have to admit that I feel like you should be able to emulate it with a Commlink running into a Simrig. Maybe Arsenal will hit that bit of usability; give us a "Virtual Smartlink" program that pretends to be an implanted Smartlink, since the Link system itself has no "significant parts" at that point.

And by that, I mean... It needs 1) A link to the gun and the ability to control it (taken care of by smartgun mod + wireless/skinlink into the emu module); 2) the ability to display results (image link and/or sim rig); 3) the ability to perform calculations (software)...

Errr, what were the broken-out components of a Smartlink from SR3, again? I feel like I missed one...

*EDIT: Here we go, found the list...*

1) Induction pad - either skinlink or wireless.
2) Eye display - image link
3) rangefinder - built into gun
4) Processor - the emulated program I was talking about
5) limited simsense rig - apparently obsolete, since modern Smartguns seem to give you the full bonus without it?

Personalized Safety doesn't seem to have re-appeared yet, and 2.0 proc seems to have been subsumed into the primary.

Posted by: Jaid Aug 13 2007, 06:06 PM

induction palm pads is what you forgot i think, but those aren't needed anymore.

anyways, since the smartgun system is restricted, i personally assume the smartlink that goes into eyes/goggles/whatever is deliberately kept separate specifically so that (theoretically) they can't be picked up and used by people who aren't supposed to be allowed to use smartlinks.

in particular, it is possibly to upgrade cameras with vision mods. a gun with a smartgun system has a camera. and the smartgun link is considered a vision mod.

therefore, you could have a gun complete with built-in smartgun link, effectively (you could also put it in a scope, if you wanted).

Posted by: Ed_209a Aug 13 2007, 07:09 PM

Thanks for posting that text Neko.

A few questions for the community:

"where the user is pointing and highlighting perceived targets."

Any thoughts on how the targets are detected and highlighted? This could be as simple as the user looking at a bad guy and thinking "bad guy", and he gets a box around him. On the other hand , it could be smart enough to tell a badguy even if you can't tell he's a bad guy. I would lean towards user-designated targets.

"It incorporates a laser range finder and a small camera,.."

Tough to argue with canon, eh? I still think a laser spot-tracker is the simplest way to do what smartguns do, which is compute a ballistic solution.

One good thing about laser rangefinders, is that since you would need to pulse the beam anyway, your beam can be more intense for a given power supply than if the beam had to last long enough for you to see. That will help overcome air quality issues.

Incidentally, I see smartguns working in two modes, snapshot and aimed. Snapshot would be for quick shots at close range. Put reticle on target, bang! Aimed mode would have you designate a target, the SG plots a trajectory and gives you a trajectory-corrected reticle. You put your corrected reticle on target and fire. Both of these would be identical for dice chucking purposes.

Posted by: DireRadiant Aug 13 2007, 07:38 PM

QUOTE (Buster)

Smartgun system + Image link does not work at all to give bonuses of any kind.

Smartgun system + Smart Link(+Image Link) is what is needed.

essence costs are only if you implant.

It's a two piece system, not a one piece system + viewer.

Posted by: DireRadiant Aug 13 2007, 07:45 PM

QUOTE (neko128 @ Aug 13 2007, 12:55 PM)

The part which isn't clear is the "advanced software" bit; and by my interpretation, this is why it costs essence/capacity. The Smartgun system says "Okay, this gun is now operable remotely via Smartlink, plus it has a nifty camera and laser rangefinder". If the processing center and software were in the Smartlink itself, it'd explain why it's separate and significant in terms of implanting...

It only costs essence if you implant it as cyberware.

It does not cost essence if you do not implant it.

Low light vision, infra red vision, image enhancement, vision magnification all cost essence when implanted.

The only reason they cost essence is that you are implanting them, there's no special other reason.

If you want a reason they cost essence, well, you do get DNI with it.

Posted by: neko128 Aug 13 2007, 07:58 PM

QUOTE (DireRadiant)

QUOTE (neko128 @ Aug 13 2007, 12:55 PM)

What you said was true, but I think you missed my point.

My point was, if the gun itself does all the work, then all you would need was an image link; however, the Smartlink itself is a separate system which requires an image link, whether it's cyber/implanted (taking capacity/essence) or just stuck in a pair of glasses. The fact that it's a visual mod, able to be put into cybereyes or glasses, means it's not a simsense thing; an image link is enough to do the display itself; all the actual physical operations are done in the gun (whether the orders are passed by DNI, commlink, or pulling the trigger/pushing buttons). The only thing that leaves, that I can see, is what the rulebook describes as "advanced software"; pretty much, the gun picks up the data, but the data processing happens in the Smartlink - and is in fact why the Smartlink exists at all.

The end result is that the Smartlink system itself (as opposed to the Smartgun system, which is the firearms mod), whether implanted or modded into other equipment, is kinda an equivalent to a Math CPU - a co-processor that does necessary stuff... But it raises the question of why it's eye-ware and not head-ware if that's the case.

Posted by: eidolon Aug 13 2007, 08:13 PM

QUOTE (neko128)

So to Eidolon, actually, it is very similar to a "magical target acquisition system", in the sense that the gun/link system will flag any targets it recognizes, whether or not they're in your FoV.

I was speaking to the fact that some people seem to think that it drags your arm into firing position. Looking back up the thread, it looks like I just assumed someone had brought this up this time, but I was wrong. I'm remembering old discussions.

It still cannot highlight a target that you don't point it at (at least in line enough for the camera to see them), and the reticle (what is actually giving the bonus; what else would be?) still has to be lined up on a target if you expect to hit it.

Posted by: DireRadiant Aug 13 2007, 08:28 PM

QUOTE (neko128)

The end result is that the Smartlink system itself (as opposed to the Smartgun system, which is the firearms mod), whether implanted or modded into other equipment, is kinda an equivalent to a Math CPU - a co-processor that does necessary stuff... But it raises the question of why it's eye-ware and not head-ware if that's the case.

Your eye moves. Your gun does not know where your eye is looking. The gun does know where it is pointing. Your gun does not know where your eye is pointing. Your eyeware knows where your eye is pointing. Your gun tells your eyeware where it is pointing, your eyeware then figures out where your eye is pointing and adjusts accordingly.

Eyes moves, guns move.

If I'm looking left and my gun is pointing right, the reticle needs to appear in the right side of my vision field. If the gun does not move, but my eye does move right, the eyeware needs to adjust.

Posted by: neko128 Aug 14 2007, 12:17 AM

QUOTE (DireRadiant)

QUOTE (neko128 @ Aug 13 2007, 02:58 PM)

Well, ignoring the fact that I'm not 100% convinced your gun wouldn't know where your eye is pointing (we know the communication is two-way, so why wouldn't it if it wanted to?), what's your point?

Posted by: neko128 Aug 14 2007, 02:21 AM

Oh, and to go back and adjust something I said; the CyberSafety was in Augmentation. I just missed it.

Posted by: Buster Aug 14 2007, 02:25 AM

QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Aug 13 2007, 02:38 PM)

Yes I know what the rules are, I'm saying they don't make any sense.

The smartgun system on the gun does all the calculations and has the rangefinder, camera, and laser scope.

The image link shows you the targeting hairs and highlights.

The skinlink connects the two.

What is the smartgun link for?

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Aug 14 2007, 03:13 AM

Apparently it has the electronics in it that weren't fit into the gun -- whatever they are, and frankly it doesn't matter what they are since the entire thing is completely fictional at this point in time.

You can't have just a smartgun and an image link. Even without cyberware, you need a Smartlink (be it in your glasses, contacts, goggles, helmet, or implant). The implanted version is just a convenience as far as I can tell. I really don't see the need for most of the vision or hearing implants anymore as most of them are just as easily put in other items, saving you Essence and being every bit as effective (sans for maybe magicians).

Posted by: Buster Aug 14 2007, 04:35 AM

Well fine, I'll put my smartgun link in my smartgun and connect it to my image link via skin link. But if I connect my smartgun link in my smartgun to my image link with my skin link, can I used the same skin link to connect my smartgun system on my smartgun to my image link?

Posted by: DireRadiant Aug 14 2007, 04:36 AM

QUOTE (Buster)

What is the smartgun link for?

Get a marker. Go to a window. Mark a spot on it. Point your finger at where you think that spot is indicating outside the window. Now move your head a foot left without changing what your finger is pointed at.

What does the spot mark?

Even if you assume the smartgun system itself does all the targeting mojo calculations. SOmething has to track your eye, just so the dot can be adjusted.

Posted by: DireRadiant Aug 14 2007, 04:37 AM

QUOTE (Buster)

Yes.

Posted by: eidolon Aug 14 2007, 04:39 AM

QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)

The implanted version is just a convenience as far as I can tell. I really don't see the need for most of the vision or hearing implants anymore as most of them are just as easily put in other items, saving you Essence and being every bit as effective (sans for maybe magicians).

Yup. I haven't written a character up that had vis and audio mods as implants in a while, unless that character hinges on being able to do that stuff while blending in with normal society. For a runner that pulls covert jobs, implanting that stuff is E that could be spent on more interesting stuff.

Posted by: Buster Aug 14 2007, 05:03 AM

QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Aug 13 2007, 11:37 PM)

QUOTE (Buster @ Aug 13 2007, 11:35 PM)

Yes.

You would be smart to think you could link image link to skin link to smart link to skin link to image link to skin link (which is the same skin link in the image link to skin link to smart link links) to the smartgun system on the smartgun.