Printable Version of Topic

Click here to view this topic in its original format

Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Are there any range limits on sustaining powers?

Posted by: burk Aug 14 2007, 12:53 PM

This came up in a game recently and caused a big "discussion".

As I remember the rules they say that the critter must be on the same plane and within LOS to use most powers but that sustaining the power doesn't require any effort by the critter. I'm paraphrasing I know but I don't have the rules handy right now I'm afraid.

However, consider a spirit who conceals/moves a party then dematerializes and travels hundreds of kilometers away on the astral plane. Can the spirit still maintain the power?

As far as I've been able to determine the rules don't prohibit it but it conflicts with the way I imagine things working.

Any thoughts anyone?

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Aug 14 2007, 01:30 PM

I'm pretty sure the caster -- spirit or otherwise -- has to stay on the same plane as the target of his spells/powers. Distance isn't an issue, only the plane you're currently on.

I can't say that I recall reading anything about this in the current edition of the game, mind you, so it may have changed. Or I could simply be basing it on a really old house rule. It's much too early for me to make any kind of confident stand on the subject, and my books are inaccessible at the moment to verify. But as I said, I'm pretty sure that's the way it works.

Posted by: DireRadiant Aug 14 2007, 02:09 PM

Critter sustaining a power over a period of time is still "using" it.

Therefore

QUOTE (burk)

As I remember the rules they say that the critter must be on the same plane and within LOS to use most powers .....

Any thoughts anyone?

is still true and hence the critter cannot dematerialize and go off astrally and still do the Power.

Posted by: burk Aug 14 2007, 02:18 PM

That makes sense but I don't have the exact wording of the rules handy so I wouldn't draw any conclusions from my paraphrasing. I will be re-reading that bit at the first opportunity though.

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Aug 14 2007, 02:20 PM

Line of sight isn't a requirement for sustaining, only casting. This is true for critters as well as magicians. Of this much I'm certain.

Posted by: DireRadiant Aug 14 2007, 02:25 PM

The important bit is the same plane thing for sustaining

Posted by: FrankTrollman Aug 14 2007, 02:27 PM

QUOTE (SR4 @ p. 286)

Also, line of sight does not have to be maintained after the power takes hold of its target. Critters may sustain a number of powers equal to their Magic at one time.

Hope that helps.

-Frank

Posted by: DireRadiant Aug 14 2007, 02:28 PM

The other requirement to remember is that if the spirit moves away more then Magic * 100 meters then the service automatically becomes a remote service.

Posted by: Demerzel Aug 14 2007, 02:37 PM

QUOTE (SR4 p.286)

Note that in order for a creature to use a power against a target, they must share the same â€œstate:â€? astral or physical. Astral forms cannot affect physical targets, and vice versa (see The Astral World, p. 181).

This is the quote that requires the same plane. LOS isnâ€™t a part of it. Sustaining is affectingâ€¦ Or as DireRadiant put it sustaining is usingâ€¦

Posted by: burk Aug 14 2007, 02:46 PM

It does say "use" then. I'd have to agree with DireRadiant in that case.

Posted by: darthmord Aug 14 2007, 03:40 PM

QUOTE (DireRadiant)

The important bit is the same plane thing for sustaining

Negatory. Check the spirit power of "Guard".

They have to be on the same plane to activate the power. After that, the spirit is more than allowed to go back to the Astral and continue sustaining the power.

This might be an exception (not entirely certain as I don't have time to reference my PDFs) but I do recall reading about this very thing with the Guard power.

Posted by: Fortune Aug 14 2007, 03:47 PM

I didn't find anything under Guard, but you might be thinking of this ...

QUOTE (SR4 pg. 176)

While in astral form, spirits can only perform services that affect the astral plane or that directly affect their summoner through the magical link between them.

Posted by: Demerzel Aug 14 2007, 03:58 PM

Heh, I read the whole paragraph describing Guard a few times. There is nothing that would indicate that there is anything allowing it's use to cross planes. In fact it is a physical power so unless the spirit is materialized it cannot be used.

Posted by: DireRadiant Aug 14 2007, 04:45 PM

QUOTE (darthmord)

QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Aug 14 2007, 10:25 AM)

The important bit is the same plane thing for sustaining

p. 288
"Guard
Type: P â€¢ Action: Complex â€¢ Range: LOS â€¢ Duration: Sustained
Th e Guard power gives the critter the ability to prevent
normal environmental accidents and hazards (both natural
and those induced by the Accident power), such as preventing
someone from succumbing to heatstroke or saving someone
from drowning. Th e Guard power can also be used to prevent
a glitch from occurring. Guard may be used on a number of
characters at once equal to the critterâ€™s Magic attribute."

p. 286
"Type: Powers may be either mana (M) or physical (P),
just like spells (see p. 195). Mana powers do not aff ect nonliving
targets, whereas physical powers cannot be used in astral
space or aff ect astral forms."

"Sustained powers may be maintained over time at no effort
or cost. Because these powers are innate, the critter is not
subject to any strain or modifi ers for keeping the eff ect going.
Even taking damage will not disrupt these powersâ€™ ability
to sustain. Also, line of sight does not have to be maintained
aft er the power takes hold of its target. Critters may sustain a
number of powers equal to their Magic at one time."

What am I missing?

Posted by: darthmord Aug 14 2007, 04:47 PM

Okay. The entry for "Guard" doesn't say anything and I can't find the verbage I'm looking for in my SR4 PDF. It's probably in my Street Magic book at home. I'll look it up and reference the page number.

If someone has it (SM) handy in PDF form, do a search for the word "materialize". I know that was used in the paragraph I remember reading. The paragraph was very clear on the spirit would have to Materialize in order to use Guard but could sustain it from the Astral rather than needing to stay in the Physical.

Posted by: DireRadiant Aug 14 2007, 04:52 PM

p. 95 Street Magic
"Passive powers such as Astral Form, Energy Aura, or
Materialization donâ€™t require the use of services, they are assumed
to be included with any other service that requires
their use. Since Guard is a physical power, it requires the spirit
to be physical in order to activate it (though not to sustain it).
Therefore, a spirit ordered to use Guard on someone would
need to use Materialize or Possession before it could do so,
and both actions would only require one service (though it
might immediately go back to astral plane while sustaining
the Guard effect, depending on what other services it was performing
at the time)."

Amusing.

Posted by: FrankTrollman Aug 14 2007, 04:57 PM

Sustaining powers works the same as sustaining spells as far as astrally projecting/materializing/whatever goes.

About the only thing a spirit can't do while keeping a power running is go back to the metaplanes.

-Frank

Posted by: darthmord Aug 14 2007, 05:04 PM

QUOTE (DireRadiant)

Critters may sustain a number of powers equal to their Magic at one time."

I do have a question about this part though...

Say a spirit uses Guard on Runner A. Then a few minutes later, it has to use Guard on Runner B. Then a few minutes after that, the spirit uses Guard on Runner C.

Are those three uses of Guard treated as separate powers for purposes of "Total number of sustained powers" or are they counted as 1 instance?

What about if the spirit used Guard on all three runners at the same time?

I can see an arguement for both ways. Do we count the number of sustained powers by the number of targeted entities (with singles or groups each counted as an entity) or by the number of times it is used & sustained?

Posted by: tisoz Aug 14 2007, 09:08 PM

QUOTE (darthmord)

Say a spirit uses Guard on Runner A. Then a few minutes later, it has to use Guard on Runner B. Then a few minutes after that, the spirit uses Guard on Runner C.

Requires 3 services, but is using only 1 power.

Posted by: laughingowl Aug 14 2007, 10:42 PM

As stated three 'services' and 'one' sustain power (for purposed of how many the can sustain). (presuming atleast a force 3 spirit).

Now If you stated: Guard A, B and C, that would be one services (and one sustained power). Since the spirit can guard up to its force in people (assumption force 3+).

However changing any of the targets of the power is a new services.

So if you decided to change it to: Guard A, B, and D that would be a new service.

So you case:

Guard A.
Guard B.
Guard C.

As three seperate orders would either:

(if spirit doesnt like you) might be taken as: Guard A. (ok one service and A is protected).

Guard B. (change target of guard to B, stop guarding A) (another services)

Guard C. (change target to C, stop guarding B) (another service).

To me though this is very unlikely is word lawyering tends to bog game down. Unless 1) the spirits are very upset with caster, or 2) you (the gm) have any doubt as to the intent of what was wanted.

The most likely results it he spirit interrupts the order as:

Guard A. (ok one service and A is protected).

Guard B. [In addition to guarding A, also guard b] (this is changing the targets of a service which is a new servuce. A&B are guarded one sustained service).

Guard C. [In addition to guarding A&B, also guard C] (this is changing the targets of a service which is a new servuce. A&B&C are guarded one sustained service).

So three services have been 'used', yet the spirit is only sustaining one power.

Now 'kind' GMs might allow a spirit to use the same power multiple times.

So for example a force 2 spirit as a service could:

Guard A & B (two is the most it can target with the power).

as a second service it could

Guard C & D (two is the most it can target with a [use] of a power).

Now it could guard a third group of people (even if additional services) since it can only sustain its force in powers.

If have not seen a clean ruling on the general caveat of a spirit can affect a number of targets equal to its force...

If that means total or 'per use' of power.

To me since there is a limit already to the number of powers that can be sustained... I dont have any problems with sustaining the same power multiple times.

Posted by: darthmord Aug 15 2007, 05:15 PM

I understand that a command to use X power on Y targets is a single service unless you are issuing three separate commands over a period of time in which case they would each cost a service.

I understand the services costs quite well and have no question there.

I was questioning whether three separate commands to use a certain sustained power counts as multiple powers with regards to the maximum number of sustained powers or as a single instance against their maximum number.

IOW, does sustaining guard on three separate targets (due to three separate commands to use said power) count as three sustained powers or does it count as one sustained power? A case can be made both ways and RAW is leaving me with little clarity.

Posted by: Fortune Aug 15 2007, 09:04 PM

QUOTE (darthmord @ Aug 16 2007, 03:15 AM)

I was questioning whether three separate commands to use a certain sustained power counts as multiple powers with regards to the maximum number of sustained powers or as a single instance against their maximum number.

Well technically, it depends how you word the command. If you had the Spirit Guard 1 person, then added another, and then a third (each being a Service), there's no reason why you couldn't word it so that the Spirit is still only using the one (instance of the) Power.

If for some reason the Spirit did have reason to be utilizing 2 or 3 separate Guard Powers, then each would count towards the limit. But this shouldn't come up too often with reasonable sized Spirits.