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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Stick n' Shock: The Poll

Posted by: Narmio Aug 17 2007, 12:27 AM

Thought I'd see if I could get some numbers on this.

Posted by: l33tpenguin Aug 17 2007, 12:40 AM

I'm in the category of "never use S&S because I like to shot people dead"

I think a lot of this is going to be perception. I'm of the opinion that taking down someone non-lethal should be MUCH more difficult than the lethal method. Bringing back someone alive rather than dead has always been considered the more difficult alternative. Does S&S make non-lethal take downs easier than lethal? If yes, then I would say its over powered.

Being non-lethal SHOULD be more difficult as opposed to lethal. Non lethal has FAR more rewards to it than being lethal. Non-lethal take downs mean you can get information from someone. Even guards have useful information you can get from them (and are usually pretty easy to get to talk). The vengeful J might prefer the target to be brought back alive, making the run more rewarding while more difficult. S&S also leaves almost no evidence. No nasty blood that needs cleaned, just an unconscious body that can easily be taken care of.

Asking is S&S over powered compared to ExEx is a poor question. Does ExEx let you interrogate someone after the fact? Does ExEx provide the advantages of a non-lethal take down? No, people shot in the face with ExEx don't get up. They can't give you vital information, they are an icky mess that is obvious that someone was here.

Posted by: toturi Aug 17 2007, 12:46 AM

No, it seems a bit over the top, but hasn't been a problem for me/us.

Posted by: Whipstitch Aug 17 2007, 04:58 AM

QUOTE (l33tpenguin @ Aug 16 2007, 07:40 PM)

Being non-lethal SHOULD be more difficult as opposed to lethal. Non lethal has FAR more rewards to it than being lethal. Non-lethal take downs mean you can get information from someone. Even guards have useful information you can get from them (and are usually pretty easy to get to talk). The vengeful J might prefer the target to be brought back alive, making the run more rewarding while more difficult. S&S also leaves almost no evidence. No nasty blood that needs cleaned, just an unconscious body that can easily be taken care of.

Asking is S&S over powered compared to ExEx is a poor question. Does ExEx let you interrogate someone after the fact? Does ExEx provide the advantages of a non-lethal take down? No, people shot in the face with ExEx don't get up. They can't give you vital information, they are an icky mess that is obvious that someone was here.

If that's what's truly bothering you then you have far more issues to beef with than poor ol' stick 'n' shock. Flechette ammo? That's probably going to dealin' stun. Stunbolt? Duh. Supersquirt with pepper punch? Stun, stun and more stun. Subdual combat? You bet your sweet ass that's stun damage. Narcoject laced thrown weapons or injection arrows? Teensy bit of physical and big wad o' good old fashioned stun. Airburst Flash-Bangs are pretty spiffy as well. And none of these options are all that terribly much worse than the lethal alternatives. Bottomline is, as strongly as you may feel about the subject, many of us (apparently the devs included) are perfectly fine with the idea that it's easier to hurt someone than it is to reduce them to a red smear. Not to mention, sometimes leaving survivors is every bit as dangerous as just killing everyone and leaving it at that. At least the dead guy can't come after you himself. Well, most of the time, anyway.

Posted by: Sterling Aug 17 2007, 05:40 AM

It was said by someone before, that Lone Star needed a 'non-lethal' round and Stick-n-shock was the answer.

Lone Star now sends their employees out with nonconductive-modded armor, the highest rating is only 1200 after all. Most corps would also throw a level or two on their armor as well. So if the most broken round in the game is easily countered by spending a little money.. what's the worry? Plus it's a great anti-drone round, which should be something every runner cares about. It's nice to get that Lone Star (or other corp) drone off your tail by volting it.. and hey, free drone!

It's mainly for use against street gangs, innocent bystanders, and poor runners. As far as stun rounds go it's not as good as gel rounds (no armor mod aids versus it, plus bonus knockdown) but does incapacitate which can suck.

Plus (as everyone knows) a Lone Star officer can 'accidentally' fire a half-dozen rounds at a target who overflows to physical and dies. Oops.

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Aug 17 2007, 06:06 AM

Wait, when did it become a fundamental law of the universe for it to be easier to kill someone than knock them out? I had no idea that clubbing someone to death was easier than just knocking them out, or that it often takes more than one shot to kill someone as opposed to a single taser-type attack to drop 'em in the real world.

And it's not like today there's numerous companies out there researching very effective ways to create non-lethal alternatives to firearms. Including things like stick-n-shock. You also know how hard it's going to be to create stuff like that in an age where battery technology is apparently so advanced that a microdrone can run for hours and hours on end, or cyberware implants don't even need any.

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Aug 17 2007, 06:10 AM

QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)

Wait, when did it become a fundamental law of the universe for it to be easier to kill someone than knock them out?

Since gently batting someone over the head results usually in a corpse.FActor in that RL tasers don't knock you out and there you go.

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Aug 17 2007, 06:21 AM

Shadowrun's Tasers are broken, then. Down with Tasers!

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Aug 17 2007, 06:27 AM

Well, you could change the rules to focus on the incapacitation effect and make them stop penetrating armor.

Posted by: Abschalten Aug 17 2007, 06:58 AM

They're the best ammo type in the game, really. They chop through armor, go against Impact (which is typically lower than Ballistic armor), and if they HIT (not damage, HIT) you have to roll that test against the incapacitation effect, which is a pretty tough test and could leave you defenseless for several rounds. It also shorts drones and electronics, and really now... it's just too awesome. It makes light pistols uber and turns even the wussiest character into a killing machine.

I had an adept who was using a light pistol with stick-and-shock, and I actually talked to the GM about letting me switch them out for gel, since I felt like the levels of ass I was kicking was totally not justified. I was taking out armed guards and security officers pretty easily, and thought that it wasn't right. If stick-and-shock were a little more toned down, I wouldn't feel so bad about using them, but as it is they're just too awesome. If you're in a heavy firefight, killing somebody and knocking them out/incapacitating them are more or less the same thing. So why not go with the non-lethal round that stuns them even if it doesn't knock them out?

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Aug 17 2007, 07:04 AM

QUOTE (Abschalten)

and if they HIT (not damage, HIT) you have to roll that test against the incapacitation effect, which is a pretty tough test and could leave you defenseless for several rounds.

Oh, and it doesn't matter if you are wearing fullbody armor with max nonconductive upgrade, take no damage and make the incapacitation test - if they hit you, you'll suffer a -2 penalty.

Posted by: Fuchs Aug 17 2007, 07:20 AM

Sounds like overpowered then.

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Aug 17 2007, 07:24 AM

Really great to see the vast majority who've taken part of the poll agree that it's not a problem at all.

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Aug 17 2007, 07:35 AM

QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)

Really great to see the vast majority who've taken part of the poll agree that it's not a problem at all.

..because they aren't really using it. Mostly because they think it's over the top.
Go figure.

Posted by: Blade Aug 17 2007, 07:39 AM

I mostly GM and haven't seen my players use/abuse it. Ex-ex is funnier, and gel remains the usual stun round (even if I tend to consider it only less-than-lethal rather than totally non-lethal).

It might be a bit broken... but it's just a combat thing. It's not as if it could hijack entire adventures and destroy the whole consistency of the universe.

Posted by: darthmord Aug 17 2007, 12:35 PM

I voted in the not a problem / don't use it much since my typical MO is either stunbolt the ever living crap out of the target or put a bullet or 20 into them.

What I do works well enough for my tastes. Why mess with it?

Posted by: Prime Mover Aug 17 2007, 12:56 PM

S&S makes sense if follow the Big D's will concerning non lethal tech, something like S&S was bound to show up. My players have been using the old Plasma Shock ammo and weapons from an old Kage issue for many years, S&S is actually a comprimise of plasma shocks damage codes. Set damage actually lowers damage from were it used to be in assault rifle version.

For most part this ammo has historically been used in my games when absolutely positively had to knock some Mo'Fragger out and keep his meat alive. Also had mage in past who was completely against killing in cold blood and carried Plasma/stick and shock pistol.

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Aug 17 2007, 08:39 PM

QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)

QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein @ Aug 17 2007, 09:24 AM)

Really great to see the vast majority who've taken part of the poll agree that it's not a problem at all.

..because they aren't really using it. Mostly because they think it's over the top.
Go figure.

...actually a number of my characters carry S&S, as well as a shock glove, stun baton, or the Shock Hand implant.

Iv'e seen people get tased and yes, they are pretty helpless even a few moments after the charge is finished as their muscles are still clenched from the shock. Enough time to get them cuffed or zip tied.

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Aug 17 2007, 08:48 PM

That's great. You do realize that in SR, they are unconcious for, say, hours?

Posted by: Ted Stewart Aug 17 2007, 10:33 PM

QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Aug 17 2007, 03:48 PM)

That's great. You do realize that in SR, they are unconcious for, say, hours?

Only if you flatline their stun boxs. The electrical effect takedown is listed in combat rounds.

If you taser somebody long enough, they will pass out for a similar time frame. Assume the tasers in Shadowrun are significantly more powerful, and that the safety of the target is less of a priority than in our society, and a single hit with them could put somebody down.

I also have to say that it's extremely difficult to kill somebody. A cripple is several orders of magnitude easier than a kill. Beating somebody to death is a LOT of work. Even knives and firearms are significantly more likely to put someone down than to kill them. Of course, killing someone who is already crippled isn't particularly difficult, but it's an additional step that most people won't take.

Unfortunately, SR doesn't take that into account. The closest we have is the separation of stun vs physical damage. In that imperfect system, it makes sense that stun is more effective than physical, since physical here really means lethal.