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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ A tough team choice!
Posted by: Kyleigh Wester Aug 21 2007, 06:32 PM
Well, after I saw a post claiming mages were more important to a run then deckers, I went about talking to my friends. I started a little poll asking, if it came down to it, would you rather have a decker or a mage in your team? Imagine you're hired for a run but you can only have so many people in your team. You got one slot left, and you can choose between a mage or a decker? Two completely differant worlds of running but both almost required to an extent.
I really want to know what dumpshock members think of this. I had trouble getting a straight answer from most of my Shadowrun team and really want to see what the answers stack up to.
Posted by: Kyoto Kid Aug 21 2007, 06:51 PM
...SRIII & before: I would take the Decker, for without one, the Matrix is pretty much useless. A Rigger could also be a decent backup decker, but to really crack the tough nodes, you need a specialist. Though not as instant as healing spells, someone with a decent Biotech (First Aid) skill, a well stocked Medikit and an autodoc drone can get a team by in the case of injury. Just make sure everyone has a decent willpower to fend off spells and the Sammy is an expert at some form of Melee attack (or the adept has killing hands or a WF) if a spirit shows up.
...SRIV, as much as I hate to admit it, the mage is more important here. Almost anyone (even the mage) can beef up his or her commlink and buy the essential programmes and skill to crack the matrix. Since most matrix tests are extended, having that huge DP is not all that necessary. Also, Attribute has no bearing the cracking pool (*sigh* 
) so a high Logic is not as important as good utility programmes. Spells in SR4 are tougher against mundanes & based on the many discussions I have read magic almost always seems to trump just about everything else in the game.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Aug 21 2007, 06:55 PM
Deckermage! Riggerdeckermage, even better. Of course, if you can find a Riggerdeckermageface floating around…
~J
Posted by: Kyoto Kid Aug 21 2007, 07:29 PM
...only if I can use the optional Powerful Character Generation rules in MrJ'sLBB 
Posted by: Daddy's Little Ninja Aug 21 2007, 08:25 PM
It depends on the run and the opposition.
Posted by: Wounded Ronin Aug 21 2007, 09:17 PM
Mage. Decker is honestly pretty limited utility. Mage is essential, however, since if you don't have your mage the whole team is easy to magic to death. The mage is a much bigger gap in your game plan than the decker.
Posted by: warrior_allanon Aug 21 2007, 09:24 PM
i have to agree with DLN and add that it also depends on the makeup of the rest of the team. for instance, the group that i ran with in DFW we had 2 phys ads, 1 Street sams and a electronics expert/face and occaisionally we had a mage, but usual aspects of the missions magic side we could use the phy adepts with a major weapon focus, (Thank you force 5 Broadsword) and the electronics side, we all had fairly decent vehicle and weapons skills and the electronic tech handled the data recovery by pulling the hard drives or installing a tap link and then having an exterior NPC decker do the recovery. honestly theres ways around both
for SR4, i would say take the mage, anyone can hack now
Posted by: Glyph Aug 22 2007, 02:53 AM
Without knowing either the composition of the rest of the team or their mission, there really isn't enough information to make an informed choice. I would agree with the consensus that the mage would be better 9 times out of 10 in SR4.
Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Aug 22 2007, 03:32 AM
Much as I, the pentultimate deck-wanker, hate to admit it...
9 for 10 in ordinary situations, the mage. Of course...
Just get a mage who's Initiated once and has the extra Magic die that can safely allow Essense to be reduced. Bam, a Deckermage. He can spend his cash upgrades on his commlink, and his karma for his magery, once he's gotten his hacking DP up nice and pretty.
Posted by: Gelare Aug 22 2007, 04:28 AM
I've always loved mages, always played with 'em whenever I got the chance, regardless of what game I was playing, but in a game like Shadowrun where there's so much cool potential in the Matrix, it's a pity that deckers aren't, y'know...better. Or rather, mages should probably be nerfed a little, but alas. Unless you're doing a datasteal run, the mage is the correct choice.
Posted by: Kyoto Kid Aug 22 2007, 05:26 AM
...I love mages too, usually when they were in the sights of my Walther 2100
--Jill 
Posted by: Critias Aug 22 2007, 06:10 AM
Was that supposed to be English?
Posted by: Kyoto Kid Aug 22 2007, 06:40 AM
| QUOTE (Critias @ Aug 22 2007, 01:10 AM) |
| Was that supposed to be English? |
...[fixed]
Thanx for catching that. Didn't run it through Word first like I usually do.
Posted by: Cthulhudreams Aug 22 2007, 07:23 AM
| QUOTE |
| I've always loved mages, always played with 'em whenever I got the chance, regardless of what game I was playing, but in a game like Shadowrun where there's so much cool potential in the Matrix, it's a pity that deckers aren't, y'know...better. Or rather, mages should probably be nerfed a little, but alas. Unless you're doing a datasteal run, the mage is the correct choice. |
Hack isn't that demanding points wise, whereas mage is though. I mean, you can really be a hacker/face/investigator.
Posted by: tisoz Aug 22 2007, 07:35 AM
| QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Aug 22 2007, 03:23 AM) |
| Hack isn't that demanding points wise, whereas mage is though. I mean, you can really be a hacker/face/investigator. |
Thanks for the 4th edition input. Please note the use of the term decker by the original poster. Deckers do eat up some resource points when purchasing their cyberdeck and programs. It is pretty much a given that in 4th edition anyone can hack, but only the select few get to use magic.
Posted by: wargear Aug 22 2007, 09:25 AM
Having not made the jump to 4th ed, this is my 3rd ed view:
For recon, healing, and mobility you cannot beat having a well rounded mage on the team.
On the other hand, having a competant decker on matrix overwatch throughout a run can be a lifesaver.
My recommendation: Take the decker, and cultivate a bear or snake shaman contact at level 2 or above to cover the healing.
Posted by: toturi Aug 22 2007, 09:35 AM
3rd ed: Otaku on overwatch, combat decker to do off-line systems, mage for just about everything else.
4th ed: Mystic adept hacker.
Posted by: adamu Aug 22 2007, 02:28 PM
Mage - gotta have it.
In SR4, it's ALL those spellcasting dice thrown by the bad-guy mage vs. your Willpower and NOTHING ELSE if you don't have a good counterspeller.
Plus, hacker and his sprites useful against any opposition with tech. More the opfor tech, the more useful.
Mage and spirits useful agains ANYONE, whatever the environment or opfor tech level (okay, there are mana ebbs and all that, but that's picking nits).
Posted by: DireRadiant Aug 22 2007, 02:59 PM
In SR4 a mage that can summon Task Spirits will be able to handle the matrix operations. And that's just one way for the Matrix stuff to get covered.
Posted by: Kyoto Kid Aug 22 2007, 04:16 PM
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| 3rd ed: Otaku on overwatch... |
...only if she took the 1,1,1 physical attribute option (for all 8s in her mental Attributes) has the Natural Hardening Edge, one submersion grade (to have the Neurofilter echo), and is in hardened warded bunker far away from any gunfire or offending spells
Posted by: Kyleigh Wester Aug 22 2007, 09:16 PM
Since we've already ruled in the fact fourth edition fux0red up the use of Hackers and made them pointless, hows about we focus on third edition? Hrmmm, I really do like the input, but here's a situation.
You've meet with the Johnson and he's offered you one hell of a pay. Theres only one problem, you have no idea what's going to go down. Only that you must break into an Ares Complex and retrieve.....something. You don't know what it is or how you're supposed to get it. The only help he offers is a map of the complex with a red dot where the object is supposed to be, fourth floor in the center of the complex. Theres a catch though, for some reason you can only take one person, and they have to be one of his own men. A cybered out Combat Decker or a Mage with a long list of spells, most of which force six and specialized in combat. Which do you choose?
If you were stupid enough to take this mission, which would you choose?
Posted by: hyzmarca Aug 22 2007, 09:28 PM
The mage, because SR3 spirits can't disable bomb vests. I would, of course, require the character in question to wear a vest loaded with enough explosives to level Rhode Island, set to explode if I am neutralized and which can be exploded manually if I get pissed off enough.
Posted by: wargear Aug 23 2007, 02:39 AM
The Decker. Its one of Mr. Johnson's men, who will have an agenda all of his own, and not necessarily one in the best interests of the shadowrunners. The combat decker is limited to the same real world limitations of the rest of the team. A mage would be far too much of a wild card for any sane team to work with.
Posted by: Kyoto Kid Aug 23 2007, 07:27 AM
...I agree with Wargear.
Posted by: tisoz Aug 23 2007, 08:14 AM
| QUOTE (wargear) |
| The Decker. Its one of Mr. Johnson's men, who will have an agenda all of his own, and not necessarily one in the best interests of the shadowrunners. The combat decker is limited to the same real world limitations of the rest of the team. A mage would be far too much of a wild card for any sane team to work with. |
So you choose the decker because the mage is too powerful?
Posted by: wargear Aug 23 2007, 09:59 AM
Heh, not because it is too powerful.
Hell, a decent grenade launcher can achieve many of the same effects as the mage.
No, it's because I would never allow a magic-user who I cannot trust implicitly to participate in a run with a character of mine. A tricked out combat mage with no ties of loyalty to the team can wreak far more havok than a tricked out combat decker.
Now I'm not saying a combat decker cannot waste the entire team if he turns on them mid run, but unless the team is Very trusting, he's going to be in the thick of it with them when it goes down.
The mage can take out the whole team from a distance without exposing himself to reprisal, and can withdraw from the team midrun at the worst possible time with ease.
Posted by: Wounded Ronin Aug 23 2007, 11:42 PM
| QUOTE (tisoz) | ||
So you choose the decker because the mage is too powerful? |
That's what the gist of a lot of this is.
Posted by: wargear Aug 24 2007, 12:44 AM
It's not "Power" that causes me to favour the Decker over the Mage.
I've seen a pair of Sams level a city block, and I know damn well just how powerful the matrix can be in the hands of a competant decker.
It's the lack of control I object to. I like to know exactly what my team is capable of. I can check the Decker's deck, his cyberware and his weapons readily enough. How do you check what spells a Mage knows?
One team I was on had a Cat Shaman who kept his knowledge of the Mind Probe spell a secret until we discovered him using it on us...a lot. That didn't end well.
All said, not got a problem with the mage's power levels, just with the lack of control over him.
Posted by: Fortune Aug 24 2007, 12:56 AM
What Decker lets you 'check' or otherwise fuck with their stuff?
Posted by: BishopMcQ Aug 24 2007, 03:57 AM
Generally the type that has a skilltwitcher and a jackstopper shoved up their datajack, is in plasteel restraints with 2 APDS rounds fired clear through their skull. Anything less and they are holding back on you.
Back On Topic--I'd take the decker unless the mage is willing to leave a ritual sample behind for my friends to take care of while we are inside. Breaking into the middle of an Ares compound without a decker is going to be suicide. Either way, I foresee heavy weapons and smoke grenades, but at least the decker can unlock the doors for you.
Posted by: Mightyflapjack Aug 25 2007, 02:49 AM
Give me a mage with Control Thoughts.
We drive by club cyberspace looking for an obvious decker type.. mind control him.. and take him on the run with us.
Posted by: Hocus Pocus Aug 25 2007, 04:24 AM
ya need a hot babe mage for some heretofore unknown reason wears like a bikini as she goes into combat. Also to flirt mercilessly with your own team members when on down time. hots.
Posted by: Kyleigh Wester Aug 25 2007, 07:21 AM
| QUOTE (Hocus Pocus) |
| ya need a hot babe mage for some heretofore unknown reason wears like a bikini as she goes into combat. Also to flirt mercilessly with your own team members when on down time. hots. |
When it comes to hawt babes, I always take the Yakuza chicks with the nano tatts, as my team got to see last session.
Posted by: toturi Aug 25 2007, 07:57 AM
| QUOTE (wargear) |
| It's not "Power" that causes me to favour the Decker over the Mage. I've seen a pair of Sams level a city block, and I know damn well just how powerful the matrix can be in the hands of a competant decker. It's the lack of control I object to. I like to know exactly what my team is capable of. I can check the Decker's deck, his cyberware and his weapons readily enough. How do you check what spells a Mage knows? One team I was on had a Cat Shaman who kept his knowledge of the Mind Probe spell a secret until we discovered him using it on us...a lot. That didn't end well. All said, not got a problem with the mage's power levels, just with the lack of control over him. |
If you can check your team's decker's deck, cyber and weapons "readily enough", then you don't need him. If you do not have a mage's spell defense, then any other mage can cast that Mind Probe and you still can't do a thing about it.
And since when do you have control over another PC? It is not a lack of control over the mage, but a lack of control over the player. And if you can get control over another player, you'd be a rich man.
Posted by: Ed Simons Aug 26 2007, 12:16 AM
| QUOTE (Kyleigh Wester) |
| If you were stupid enough to take this mission, which would you choose? |
The most logical reason for Mr. J not even telling you what you're supposed to acquire and sending his own man along is that Mr. J expects his man to be the only one returning with the McGuffin.
People are picking the NPC that's easier to geek, because they're going to have to geek the NPC anyway.
Which is a mistake, because the NPC you don't take on the Run is going to be part of the group Mr. J has waiting to kill you when you return for payment. Mr. J and his goons plus the Combat Decker is going to be an easier fight than Mr. J and his goons plus the Combat Mage.
So I recommend taking the mage.
As the old saying goes 'Geek the mage first'.
Posted by: Crusher Bob Aug 26 2007, 04:44 AM
Nah, pick the decker. His deck + programs + ware are gonna be worth a lot more than the mages feeble meat body. So when you geek them, sell them for parts, and disappear the decker will give you a step up.
Unless the mage has a lot of foci, of course...
Posted by: hyzmarca Aug 26 2007, 06:00 AM
| QUOTE (Kyleigh Wester) | ||
When it comes to hawt babes, I always take the Yakuza chicks with the nano tatts, as my team got to see last session. |
Lesbian Night Ones with SURGE prehensile tails are better still.
The decker is more dangerous inside a facility, where he can use all of the facility's many and varied deathtraps against you once your services are no longer needed.
Posted by: Hocus Pocus Aug 29 2007, 02:45 AM
hots
Posted by: Draconis Aug 31 2007, 12:42 AM
I choose the toaster shaman. 'Nuff said.
Posted by: Seven-7 Aug 31 2007, 03:00 AM
You're making this into a choice, which with the proper fandangling shouldn't be.
Shaman of the Streets.
Full Magician, Computer 6, trode net (at first), then Datajack.
Rigger: Preprogramming with computer skill.
Hacking: Computer skill, can use Red-12 Hosts for 1,200/day to get -6TN to programming tests (read above) and 12 comp dice.
Shamaning: Spirits! Spells! All the worries that Deckers and Riggers have, but none.
Granted, you need Robotic Pilots for th Preprogramming, but you might be able to slip a custom vehicle by the Gm with one in it, and there (I can't recall) might be a cheapo vehicle with one at R1 that you can strip out.
Posted by: Kyleigh Wester Aug 31 2007, 03:07 AM
| QUOTE (Seven-7) |
| You're making this into a choice, which with the proper fandangling shouldn't be. Shaman of the Streets. Full Magician, Computer 6, trode net (at first), then Datajack. Rigger: Preprogramming with computer skill. Hacking: Computer skill, can use Red-12 Hosts for 1,200/day to get -6TN to programming tests (read above) and 12 comp dice. Shamaning: Spirits! Spells! All the worries that Deckers and Riggers have, but none. Granted, you need Robotic Pilots for th Preprogramming, but you might be able to slip a custom vehicle by the Gm with one in it, and there (I can't recall) might be a cheapo vehicle with one at R1 that you can strip out. |
This thread is about which one of the two you'd take with you if you had a choice for the most part. After all, you can't design your friends characters, or the NPCs. If you could only take a mage or a decker it comes down to one or the other.
Posted by: Draconis Sep 1 2007, 10:53 AM
| QUOTE (Kyleigh Wester) | ||
This thread is about which one of the two you'd take with you if you had a choice for the most part. After all, you can't design your friends characters, or the NPCs. If you could only take a mage or a decker it comes down to one or the other. |
Why not just take parts of both?
Posted by: wargear Sep 1 2007, 12:05 PM
| QUOTE (Draconis) | ||
Why not just take parts of both? |
What? Hack great steaming chucks off of both of them?
Good idea. It may not make your dealings with Mr. Johnson any easier, but your Tanamous contact is going to love you...
Posted by: Draconis Sep 1 2007, 12:32 PM
| QUOTE (wargear) | ||||
What? Hack great steaming chucks off of both of them? Good idea. It may not make your dealings with Mr. Johnson any easier, but your Tanamous contact is going to love you... |
Well two heads is better than one.
Posted by: Sir_Psycho Sep 3 2007, 12:08 PM
For my play style, which is usually quick and stealthy, and especially if breaking into a secretive facility owned by a fraggin' triple AAA, I'd like a Decker so I could actually move through the doors, not get spotted straight away by security cameras, set off alarms and get myself into a whole lot of trouble.
There would probably be the occasional stressful "geek the mage!" or "ARGH SPIRIT! RUN", but I'd still prefer the decker.
For the sake of playing and number crunching though, I'd prefer the mage, because you can all play together without having to wait for the GM to play through the Matrix actions with the decker, while everyone else has to lie around and eat pizza. shocking.
Posted by: wargear Sep 4 2007, 07:18 AM
| QUOTE (Sir_Psycho) |
| For the sake of playing and number crunching though, I'd prefer the mage, because you can all play together without having to wait for the GM to play through the Matrix actions with the decker, while everyone else has to lie around and eat pizza. shocking. |
Actually, this is another excellent arguement FOR taking the decker npc. Since there isn't a player attempting these matrix actions, the gm can decide either via simple dice roll or gm's fiat how successful the npc was. Saves a *lot* of time.
It's why we usually have a npc decker in most of our games.
Posted by: Platinum Sep 4 2007, 05:22 PM
That argument can be used for mages that have to do astral overwatch. Or have to banish spirits.
Deckers and mages have completely different roles in a run. It is like comparing apples and oranges. Oranges are better if you are trying to make a screwdriver, apples are better for cider. If the run calls for cider, an orange won't help.
GM's that bypass pizza time with NPC deckers are really missing a great element of the game and are usually to lazy to keep the party together.
Posted by: wargear Sep 4 2007, 06:37 PM
| QUOTE (Platinum) |
| GM's that bypass pizza time with NPC deckers are really missing a great element of the game and are usually to lazy to keep the party together. |
We encourage the art of multi-tasking. Eating pizza while rolling dice is a complex operation, and fumbles can be quite entertaining, but the extra half hour of gaming time is well worth the time spent mastering a new skill.
Posted by: venenum Sep 4 2007, 07:44 PM
| QUOTE (wargear) | ||
We encourage the art of multi-tasking. Eating pizza while rolling dice is a complex operation, and fumbles can be quite entertaining, but the extra half hour of gaming time is well worth the time spent mastering a new skill. |
whats even harder is taking a bite of pizza and then drinking soda without swallowing the pizza and rolling the dice and then reading them. saves energy, so you only have to swallow once.
Posted by: Fortune Sep 4 2007, 09:20 PM
| QUOTE (Platinum) |
| GM's that bypass pizza time with NPC deckers are really missing a great element of the game and are usually to lazy to keep the party together. |
While I agree with the first part of your statement, the second doesn't automatically follow. A lot of times it is the Players themselves who would prefer to have an NPC'ed Decker/Hacker. This is no failing on the part of the GM, and is definitely not a sign of his being 'too lazy'.
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