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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Learning to Ghost Dance
Posted by: Zhan Shi Aug 26 2007, 05:01 AM
In the secrets of power trilogy, dos'nt the protagonist learn the Dance? I thought he used it to disable the nukes. Howling Coyote said he had to travel to the metaplanes, and learn it from his totem, which he did. He performed the ritual, but it also took away his Gift. BTW, what DID happen to Howling Coyote after this story? I can't remember.
Posted by: hyzmarca Aug 26 2007, 05:05 AM
Howling Coyote, like so many dancers before him, died in ritual.
Posted by: Zhan Shi Aug 26 2007, 05:11 AM
Yeah. The trilogy had a convoluted plot, with spider totems running loose, skinny immortal elves from australia working with elves in TT against Lofwyr, a runner whose sister became a wendigo, said sknny elves stealing nukes, etc....made my head spin.
Posted by: Zhan Shi Aug 26 2007, 05:14 AM
I hope this one did'nt create a spike....but even if it did, I suppose Dunks hybrid spirit/cyberzobie will deal with it.
Posted by: darthmord Aug 26 2007, 02:02 PM
Hyz, if HC died in the ritual, then why is there fluff about what he was doing in the NAN and such *after* the ritual?
Posted by: Pthgar Aug 26 2007, 02:54 PM
| QUOTE (Zhan Shi) |
| I hope this one did'nt create a spike....but even if it did, I suppose Dunks hybrid spirit/cyberzobie will deal with it. |
In fact, it did. I believe you should check out Harlequin's Back.
Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Aug 26 2007, 05:30 PM
| QUOTE (darthmord) |
| Hyz, if HC died in the ritual, then why is there fluff about what he was doing in the NAN and such *after* the ritual? |
He died. Read the third book in the Secrets of Power Trilogy. But even before that book, there were many rumors about what he was doing, including that he was dead. He died fighting Spider with the shadowrunner Twist. So even though he was now for certain dead, not a whoe lot of people knew that. Sure there were the other people at the second (well, third) Ghost Dance, but a lot of them died too. Could well have been lost in the shuffle (pun intended).
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Aug 26 2007, 05:35 PM
Translation: Retcon due to a novel.
Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Aug 26 2007, 05:37 PM
hehehe.... suppose it could be. Got dates on which books came first? It never does say in any SB (that I'm aware of at least) that he is for certain alive or dead at any particular time. He dissapeared shortly after the NAN was formed.
Posted by: Big D Aug 26 2007, 06:16 PM
Wait... I thought Ehran *was* Howling Coyote...
Am I getting my conspiracies mixed up again?
Posted by: neko128 Aug 26 2007, 06:22 PM
| QUOTE (Big D) |
| Wait... I thought Ehran *was* Howling Coyote... Am I getting my conspiracies mixed up again? |
Yes, I believe you are.
According to the novels, Howling Coyote was a native american human.
Posted by: Adarael Aug 26 2007, 06:32 PM
If push comes to shove, and novels contradict game books... I beg you, favor the game books when judging which is 'right'. Please, for all that is holy and right, favor the game books.
Posted by: Starmage21 Aug 26 2007, 07:31 PM
Street Magic details the great ghost dance as a blood magic ritual that consumed the lives of large numbers of willing awakened channelers. Howling Coyote as the leader probobly didnt die, because someone has to remain alive to finish the ritual.
Posted by: hyzmarca Aug 26 2007, 08:01 PM
| QUOTE (Starmage21) |
| Street Magic details the great ghost dance as a blood magic ritual that consumed the lives of large numbers of willing awakened channelers. Howling Coyote as the leader probobly didnt die, because someone has to remain alive to finish the ritual. |
He didn't die in that Ghost Dance. He died in the other one, which he performed with Twist.
Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Aug 26 2007, 08:34 PM
Coudl've sworn I just said that... *wanders off*
Posted by: hyzmarca Aug 26 2007, 09:49 PM
| QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0) |
| Coudl've sworn I just said that... *wanders off* |
You did. Some people weren't listening. It is worth repeating, certainly.
There are three Great Ghost Dances in SR canon.
The first was performed at Wounded Knee on December 29, 1890. It failed miserably due to pre-Awakening mana levels. This corresponds to the real life massacre of 150 Lokota Ghost Dance adherents. (Worlds Without End)
The second ended the NAN War of Independence.
The third was preformed by Howling Coyote and Twist for the purpose of beating up the Spider Totem.
Posted by: Big D Aug 27 2007, 04:54 AM
So, short version: Ehran isn't the jerk who almost got us invaded by the Horrors just so he could break up the US and steal a piece for his little magic kingdom?
Posted by: hyzmarca Aug 27 2007, 04:57 AM
| QUOTE (Big D) |
| So, short version: Ehran isn't the jerk who almost got us invaded by the Horrors just so he could break up the US and steal a piece for his little magic kingdom? |
No, Thais is the jerk who almost got us invaded by the Horror's because he liked the Native Americans and didn't want to see them slaughtered.
Posted by: Big D Aug 27 2007, 05:33 AM
There were far better ways of doing that than claiming half the US and declaring war, then firing off world-changing rituals that plant big "COME EAT OUR BRAINS" signs in neon colors on the metaplanes.
Posted by: hyzmarca Aug 27 2007, 06:00 AM
That's sort of like saying that there were better ways to stop the Holocaust than fighting the Nazis.
Posted by: Fortune Aug 27 2007, 06:10 AM
| QUOTE (Big D) |
| There were far better ways of doing that than claiming half the US and declaring war, then firing off world-changing rituals that plant big "COME EAT OUR BRAINS" signs in neon colors on the metaplanes. |
Maybe not if you are a half-Horror yourself, as Thais is.
Posted by: Big D Aug 27 2007, 06:11 AM
Curse you, Godwin!
That analogy might make more sense if you compared it to "there were better ways of stopping the Holocaust than allying with Joseph Stalin to fight the Nazis".
Especially since the extermination order, if I remember the timeline right, came out *after* the GGD. The US government (and corps, which were driving a lot of it) in 2015 was guilty of a bunch of nasty things, but genocide wasn't yet one of them. Apartheid *was*, but that can be beaten without putting out the neon signs for the all-you-can-eat buffet for the Horrors.
Doesn't mean it wasn't an option--it happened, so clearly it was. It just wasn't necessarily a very *smart* option, assuming that it was primarily or even solely an altruistic one in the first place. Which is partly why I'm questioning the altruism, particularly given what came next.
Back to the original topic... I'm still confused on the Ehran/DHC thing... was Ehran really DHC, was there a second "Howling Coyote" that was the subject of the novels everybody's talking about above, or do the novels just flat out contradict the SBs as implied by Adarael?
EDIT: Thais=Ehran?
Posted by: Fortune Aug 27 2007, 06:14 AM
| QUOTE (Big D @ Aug 27 2007, 04:11 PM) |
| Thais=Ehran? |
Thais = Aina's half-Horror son.
Posted by: Big D Aug 27 2007, 06:16 AM
Ahh... does he factor into GGD, or did I just present an easy target there? 
Posted by: Fortune Aug 27 2007, 06:16 AM
Keep in mind that Thais originally taught the Native Americans the Ghost Dance at Wounded Knee way back in 1890. It just didn't work that time as the Mana level was not high enough then.
Posted by: Big D Aug 27 2007, 06:22 AM
eeeeenteresting.
Posted by: apple Aug 27 2007, 06:26 AM
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) | ||
You did. Some people weren't listening. It is worth repeating, certainly. There are three Great Ghost Dances in SR canon. The first was performed at Wounded Knee on December 29, 1890. It failed miserably due to pre-Awakening mana levels. This corresponds to the real life massacre of 150 Lokota Ghost Dance adherents. (Worlds Without End) The second ended the NAN War of Independence. The third was preformed by Howling Coyote and Twist for the purpose of beating up the Spider Totem. |
#4 was the German troll kingdom ghost dance for liberty, performed to achieve independence by ... trolls. Many trolls. At least in "Deutschland in den Schatten 2". IIRC it was during the 2040s.
SYL
Posted by: Fortune Aug 27 2007, 06:36 AM
Ye Gods! 
Posted by: NightmareX Aug 27 2007, 08:12 AM
| QUOTE (Adarael) |
| If push comes to shove, and novels contradict game books... I beg you, favor the game books when judging which is 'right'. Please, for all that is holy and right, favor the game books. |
Most of the time the two can be reconciled with....minimal mental gymnastics
Posted by: NightmareX Aug 27 2007, 08:17 AM
| QUOTE (apple) |
| #4 was the German troll kingdom ghost dance for liberty, performed to achieve independence by ... trolls. Many trolls. At least in "Deutschland in den Schatten 2". IIRC it was during the 2040s. |
Weellll, there's a reason to be glad I don't speak/read German.
Posted by: Ancient History Aug 27 2007, 12:09 PM
Was that before or after the Hawai'ian Kahunas held their Ghost Dance?
Posted by: NightmareX Aug 27 2007, 12:33 PM
| QUOTE (Ancient History) |
| Was that before or after the Hawai'ian Kahunas held their Ghost Dance? |
I doubt the ritual in House of the Sun can be technically called the Great Ghost Dance, especially if it was based on Hawaiian shamanism. The novel doesn't really give enough info to make that determination, but it's my guess that it was a different but similar ritual.
Posted by: Blade Aug 27 2007, 12:40 PM
Was that before or after the Ghost Dance was introduced as the hip dance in clubs all around the world? 
Posted by: NightmareX Aug 27 2007, 12:49 PM
Heh, good one
Posted by: Draconis Aug 27 2007, 01:46 PM
| QUOTE (Blade @ Aug 27 2007, 12:40 PM) |
| Was that before or after the Ghost Dance was introduced as the hip dance in clubs all around the world? |
Ya no kidding. How many times do you have to use the ultra super power ritual attack before it becomes a cliched joke?
"I'm gonna ghost dance and get that fast food monkey at the Taco Temple because he got my order wrong. No nachos, that dude is toast."
Oh and on a side note about brain hurting novels, Frank and I still laugh at the idea of doing metaplanar quests in the middle of combat.
Posted by: neko128 Aug 27 2007, 02:04 PM
| QUOTE (Big D) |
| There were far better ways of doing that than claiming half the US and declaring war, then firing off world-changing rituals that plant big "COME EAT OUR BRAINS" signs in neon colors on the metaplanes. |
I have to assume that the folk who actually performed the GGD didn't know they were planting neon signs pointing at Earth saying "EAT ME". That knowledge has been fairly closely held for a long time. In fact, in 2070, after several close calls, it still isn't general knowledge...
Posted by: toturi Aug 27 2007, 02:17 PM
| QUOTE (neko128) | ||
I have to assume that the folk who actually performed the GGD didn't know they were planting neon signs pointing at Earth saying "EAT ME". That knowledge has been fairly closely held for a long time. In fact, in 2070, after several close calls, it still isn't general knowledge... |
For some reason, I keep hearing the Governator's voice.
Posted by: Big D Aug 27 2007, 02:40 PM
I doubt they did. The point is, if Ehran=DHC, then *he* knew, and led them into it anyways.
Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Aug 27 2007, 08:35 PM
Ehran wasn't Daniel Howling Coyote. He was busy being someone else at the time anyway. And Howling Coyote is dead. Ehran isn't. Not in the sense of "faked his death " dead. Dead dead.
Posted by: Big D Aug 28 2007, 12:47 AM
O.K., so the old SB I'm vaguely remembering was just throwing out a red herring... next, you'll tell me that Damien Knight isn't David Gavilan.
Posted by: Zhan Shi Aug 28 2007, 02:42 AM
In Aztlan, at least one of the posters makes clear that they should find out who taught Coyote, and kill him. If Ehran had been Danny, I think the other IEs/GDs would know it. And if they knew it, Ehran would be passing through Lofwyr's bowls, or killed by Harlequin (after all, H was forced to clean up the "spike" mess). But I have not read through all the novels or sourcebooks, so I could be missing something.
Posted by: NightmareX Aug 28 2007, 07:46 AM
| QUOTE (Big D) |
| O.K., so the old SB I'm vaguely remembering was just throwing out a red herring... next, you'll tell me that Damien Knight isn't David Gavilan. |
Which sourcebook are you referring to?
Posted by: neko128 Aug 28 2007, 01:20 PM
I also would thing that Ehran wouldn't be stupid enough to cause a spike. I mean, he's just as terrified of the Horrors as most of the other immortal elves...
Posted by: hobgoblin Aug 28 2007, 01:48 PM
well if it can enable the creation of a second elven state, why not roll out the magical WMD's?
hmm, thinking of the ghost dance that way makes me wonder about how trigger happy the natives are...
Posted by: Big D Aug 28 2007, 04:49 PM
| QUOTE (NightmareX) | ||
Which sourcebook are you referring to? |
Can't remember offhand; it's one of the older books. Somebody actually posted a pair of side-by-side pictures (in the book), together with the claim that Ehran=DHC. The rest was all Clark Kent/Superman timeline speculation.
Posted by: MITJA3000+ Aug 28 2007, 05:18 PM
| QUOTE (Big D) |
| Can't remember offhand; it's one of the older books. Somebody actually posted a pair of side-by-side pictures (in the book), together with the claim that Ehran=DHC. The rest was all Clark Kent/Superman timeline speculation. |
You're probably thinking about Tir Tairngire Sourcebook. And it wasn't Daniel Howling Coyote, it was Walter Brightwater. Or Bright Water. Damn those native names.
Posted by: SonofaSailor Aug 30 2007, 10:30 PM
| QUOTE (NightmareX) | ||
I doubt the ritual in House of the Sun can be technically called the Great Ghost Dance, especially if it was based on Hawaiian shamanism. The novel doesn't really give enough info to make that determination, but it's my guess that it was a different but similar ritual. |
I'm pretty sure it was a GGD. Also in that same book, they reveal that the kahunas used a similiar ritual ( read GGD ) to combat the UCAS troops station in Hawai'i. This was followed by the Pacific Fleet being recalled to Hawai'i and the Corps firing a Thor shot across thier bows, so to speak.
So it appears that have been a few GGDs since the Awakening...
Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Aug 30 2007, 10:34 PM
Great big magical ritual does not a Great Ghost Dance make.
Posted by: Draconis Aug 30 2007, 10:35 PM
Ah yes the great ghost dance. It's just a jump to the left, then a step to the right....
Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Aug 30 2007, 10:45 PM
'cause that's what it's all about!
Posted by: SonofaSailor Aug 31 2007, 05:42 PM
I just finshed rereading the novel 2 weeks ago, and they basically called it a Great Ghost dance in the novel. ( not the climatic ritual, but the one were they initially took control of the islands )
The hawaiians come out and say they took thier lead from the NAN Gr3eat Ghost Dance.
Posted by: NightmareX Sep 1 2007, 07:59 AM
I guess that pretty much clinches that one. Kudos!
Posted by: Protector152 Sep 2 2007, 01:32 PM
Great Ghost Dance = once in a lifetime event where all the ghosts in the world go to a party and form a conga line. Note that the party is held in a metaplane.
Posted by: Kronk2 Sep 16 2007, 04:38 AM
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| Keep in mind that Thais originally taught the Native Americans the Ghost Dance at Wounded Knee way back in 1890. It just didn't work that time as the Mana level was not high enough then. |
The actual White Shirts that they were talking about were a kind of Buff Jacket. It really was pretty much bullet proof. Knowing the history of the guy who introduced it to The People, it is entirely possible that he was conned/ inspired to think that all white shirts were bulletproof.
I also always assumed that it was Drain that killed them, and that the Dance was a big ritual.
Posted by: SonofaSailor Sep 18 2007, 05:57 PM
| QUOTE (Kronk2) | ||
The actual White Shirts that they were talking about were a kind of Buff Jacket. It really was pretty much bullet proof. Knowing the history of the guy who introduced it to The People, it is entirely possible that he was conned/ inspired to think that all white shirts were bulletproof. I also always assumed that it was Drain that killed them, and that the Dance was a big ritual. |
You are correct about the deaths during the ritual being drain driven. But the deaths also FEED the ritual ( at least as it is desribed in House of the Sun ).
Posted by: hyzmarca Sep 18 2007, 11:39 PM
Most of those who died in the ritual were mundanes. They weren't taking drain in the same sense that a magician takes drain, they were no different than a virgin gutted by a blood mage, except that the damage was caused by the ritual rather than being a simple component of the ritual.
Posted by: Magus Sep 19 2007, 03:42 PM
| QUOTE (Protector152) |
| Great Ghost Dance = once in a lifetime event where all the ghosts in the world go to a party and form a conga line. Note that the party is held in a metaplane. |
I was struck by lighting
Walkin' down the street
I was hit by something last night in my sleep
It's a dead man's party
Who could ask for more
Everybody's comin', leave your body at the door
Leave your body and soul at the door . . .
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