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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ How effective is Lone Star

Posted by: Meriss Aug 29 2007, 01:54 AM

Okay, I was watching TV and as is now the norm for me, I started thinking about SR.

Yes I'm obsessed, sue me.

How much of a badass is the Star in your games? In general? Do they have world wide connections?

Think about it, they've been around for 30 to 40 years of the Sixth world. the company has evolved and there must be a certain percentage of "old timers" in the biz. Not to mention adepts and mages.

So discuss.

Posted by: Zhan Shi Aug 29 2007, 02:00 AM

Having a star contact can be a blessing; in Predator and Prey, for example, a star johnson offers stuff like fresh SINS and wiping the players' records as payment, in addition to money. Individually, they would'nt be much of a threat...but would you want a a huge cop corporation chasing you? You would also want to watch out for their SWAT/tactical teams.

Posted by: cryptoknight Aug 29 2007, 03:49 AM

As soon as they get their Ruger Thunderbolts back... they will be scary again... Right now I think they're packing Predator IV's... so not as much...

Posted by: Gelare Aug 29 2007, 04:00 AM

Average cops aren't too badass. I usually give them dice pools of 6-8 on the spot depending on what they're doing, but I think there's also two samples of cops in SR4, the Lone Star Cop enemy and the Beat Cop contact. Plus they're restricted by extraterritoriality. Plus the average cop is scared of your average shadowrunner, who is cybered-up and better equipped, generally speaking. I was reading about this in one of the 3E books today, although I forget which one.

However, if Lone Star knows they're dealing with runners, they'll send SWAT teams or tactical teams, but usually not both since the two divisions don't like each other. Furthermore, the feds can kick some significant behind if you commit any federal crime, so watch out for those. (Read up on your U.S. Constitution, most if it's still there in the UCAS.) And Lone Star does have plenty of dirty tricks up their sleeves, make no mistake, like trid cameras with a one minute buffer to catch people saying things when they think they're off the record, flying patrol drones with face recognition software, collecting all sorts of data and ritual components on anyone they book, magemasks, etc.

Posted by: CountZero Aug 29 2007, 04:10 AM

I don't have 'em be too badass. Just because they're for profit, doesn't mean they're better equipped then conventional law enforcement. What I do do with Lone Star, is I make the bad apples a little more entrenched - since it's easier to play office politics to keep their jobs, and only seriously running into problems if they start really crossing the line, especially at an inopportune time such as a 10 year contract review (or something).

Also, I play into this with Lone Star Contacts, specifically, more upright Lone Star contacts might be willing to provide some information and the occasional favor to PC Runners provided they take "respectable" jobs (not rubbing out the Mob informant and his whole family), and perhaps for less money as well. Less respectable cops will care less about the PC Runners reps, and more about the color of their credsticks. It's a trade off.

Posted by: nathanross Aug 29 2007, 04:35 AM

I like this question, and I constantly ask it myself.

Recently I read the Lone Star sourcebook and the best answer I can give is, what do the characters need to keep them in check without ruining the game for them?

Lone Star should be as powerful as you need it to be and no more (unless your objective is to make your players constantly run through legal hoops)

I am used to playing where if the run went well, but not perfect, the Star are on the way and narrowly miss us while we have to shoot it out if we totally botch the run and don't get out in time. Characters can survive and escape Lone Star, it depends how much you want to challenge them.

Posted by: Gort Aug 29 2007, 06:30 AM

I'd probably say the Star are good for keeping the general population in check - an average officer is probably about as tough as a ganger. (keep in mind these are gangers with access to body armour and automatic weapons, so that's not really a slur)

However, if they're going after shadowrunners, they'll have cybered-out company men like any other corp.

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Aug 29 2007, 06:55 AM

...bottom line, as effective as you want them to be as a GM. In my UCAS campaigns I have them being very dangerous.

Posted by: Eleazar Aug 29 2007, 12:15 PM

Keep in mind Lonestar can be a very good way to keep mages in check. In the Lonestar sourcebook they have special mages on call that will come to a magic crime scene through the astral almost as soon as it is reported. If I remember correctly, there are 2-3 of these in Seattle. Remember, if magic is reported as being used, the Lonestar bring out the big boys.

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Aug 29 2007, 12:40 PM

QUOTE (Meriss)

How much of a badass is the Star in your games?

The guy on the street is notoriously underpaid, hassled by burocracy and superiors and usually gives a shit.

QUOTE (Meriss)

In general?

Its a 'Rent a cop' company with branches in many countries... it does so for profit and it's only one of those companies. Of course it's fairly big and has to keep it's reputation, so going to war with them is a bad idea.

QUOTE (Meriss)

Do they have world wide connections?

That depends... internally, they should be able to work across borders - if there is no infighting. They cooperate with other security firms and bodies, but usually this involves even more rivalry. That does not mean they can put pressure on governments - it's the other way round: There are other companies waiting for the contract.

Posted by: kigmatzomat Aug 29 2007, 01:58 PM

I've modified 'Star response for the SR4-verse. Aerial drones tend to be the "first responders" because they are a) cheap to keep idling, b) faster than ground vehicles that have to deal with traffic and c) more disposable. Even losing an aerial combat drone is less expensive than putting a Star agent in a hospital for a week or so.

This is actually good for runners in general because it means a rigger/hacker can spoof the drone so it sees nothing wrong. Additionally, it means that the number of patrol vehicles has decreased as armed drones do a good job of keeping minor drek contained until an officer can arrive.

The counter is that the SWAT-equivalent has the same general response time as before but will be backed up by an assortment of drones and hackers.

So break out quick chummers, because once the Citymaster shows up with three van loads of deputized leg breakers, the drek has totally hit the fan.

Posted by: WeaverMount Aug 30 2007, 06:04 AM

2070 law enforcement and 2007 law enforcement and drastically different limiting factors on firepower. Modern cops in the USA don't carry BFGs for 2 reasons. First is community relations. Cops need to be able to approach strangers and knock on a citizen's door without scarring the crap out of them. Second they have to worry about secondary damage (over-penetration, ricochet, stray bullets) which necessarily raise with firepower. I envision the population of 2070 being extremely (but, not totally) desensitize to heavy weaponry and murderous corporations. This would allow the star to use some really big guns my modern standards. As for cost. Bigger guns really aren't that much more expensive. I promise you 2007 warlords can give their thugs an AK and a bandolier for less than an American cop's lethal and non-lethal "defense systems".

Posted by: AngelisStorm Aug 30 2007, 07:43 AM

Actually I base alot of my street Lonestar cops on todays police armament wise. They carry a heavy pistol and a hand weapon, and have a shotgun and rifle in the car.

I have them in heavier armor because it's relatively cheap in Shadowrun (Armored Jacket for the street, min. of Armored Vest). The hand weapon is of course upgraded (shock baton normally), and they normally have a clip or two of special pistol ammo for emergencies (stick & shock and apds generally). They also have a puffer of combat drugs stored with the first aid kit.

The cop who is walking around isn't a big deal, but if he gets back to his car he'll become alot more dangerious. They can't always be hyper prepared (for the reasons weavermount mentioned), but I do have them set up to hold off street thugs and the like until support can arrive. (As kigmat mentioned, since alot of the work is done by drones, I want real live Lonestar cops to not just be completely disposable cannon fodder).

One question that has arisen several times in the game I'm playing in is this: how does one identify a "magical" crime? Two of the players are awakened, and they both have the quality that causes your signature to fade in half the time. Now, of course if you go around summoning spirits and throwing flashy fire/lightning, the question is a dugh. But if you use manabolts or adept powers, there isn't really a clearcut way to know magic was used, is there?

Also, and this might be a false assumption, but a signature lasts for as many hours as force, right? Well, if someone is using a combat spell (instead of a pistol) it's probably going to be force 3 at least? Which means the star is going to assume they have a little time to get over and identify the scene. If your careful about the power you cast your spells at, and you take the quality that halves your sig. time, won't the odds of you being ID by the cops by aura pretty much near nil?

*smiles* Hope those last two paragraphs were coherent, I've been losing words all day.

- Angel

Posted by: DireRadiant Aug 30 2007, 01:11 PM

QUOTE (AngelisStorm)

One question that has arisen several times in the game I'm playing in is this: how does one identify a "magical" crime? Two of the players are awakened, and they both have the quality that causes your signature to fade in half the time. Now, of course if you go around summoning spirits and throwing flashy fire/lightning, the question is a dugh. But if you use manabolts or adept powers, there isn't really a clearcut way to know magic was used, is there?

Spells with obvious visible effects are detectable through normal means by most witnesses. Though do remember the distinction between a living witness and a technological recording device. The device might still notice the effects of a spell. (HEy why did the sec guard fall over suddenly...)

For spells without obvious detectable effects you can use

p. 168
Noticing Magic
"Noticing if someone is using a magical skill requires a
Perception Test (p. 117) with a threshold equal to 6 minus the
magic’s Force—more powerful magic is easier to spot. Th e gamemaster
should apply additional modifi ers as appropriate, or if
the perceiver is Awakened themselves (+2 dice), astrally perceiving
(+2 dice), or if a shamanic mask is evident (+2 dice)."

This causes the "I don't what he did, but he did -something-" effect, that's more noticeable the more powerful the spell.

Posted by: nezumi Aug 30 2007, 02:25 PM

In regards to making the PCs lives miserable? Not so great. They generally don't have the time to track down and anticipate the moves of all but the most destructive runners. Most street cops aren't a serious threat. The primary problem they pose is that Lone Star drones get on the scene pretty fast, and while they're easy to take down, they can make your life pretty miserable, spraying with their stupid LMGs or just taking pictures and tracking you around the city. Of course, if you're dumb enough to hole up, they'll take you out, but in a well planned run they shouldn't play a major role.

In regards to making the PCs lives great? They're awesome. With the right Lone Star contacts (and not just any will do), they can tidy up criminal SINs, provide new IDs, ship weapons, offer jobs, help commit or solve kidnappings, get you in on drug and smuggling rings and help out your protection racket. They can put pressure on your enemies and slander those you can't shoot at. They've been put in a position where they basically have free reign to engage in any sort of crime that can't be easily connected to them and doesn't increase the perceived crime rate.

Posted by: Eryk the Red Aug 30 2007, 02:35 PM

I've instilled a sense of fear in my group without ever having to have a citymaster full of angry cops kill any of them. That's what the 'Star is for in my game. Fear. Rarely are they an actual presence. Something's very wrong if the group actually sees any cops.

Honestly, I'm not too sure how tough I'd make them if the group got into a real fight with Lone Star. Probably not very, but if they killed a bunch of cops, Lone Star would totally be hunting them down. And they'd bring the big guns for that.

Posted by: Ryu Aug 30 2007, 03:36 PM

LoneStar is not dangerous because the street cops are elite troops. They are dangerous because they are the ones who check your SIN and concealed-carry license. You can always count on beating the street cops in our games, but at that point the SIN you´ve been using becomes worthless.

Armed response teams are dangerous in combat but rarely used. Gone are the days of our group waiting for the FRT in order to gain more loot (twinked SR2 street sams, the memories)

In our game we sometimes have situations where one security provider has no problem at all with fleeing runners if the target is a customer to "wrong provider X". Rent-a-Cops prefer not to fight and secure their contract at the same time...

Posted by: war_m0nger Aug 30 2007, 05:56 PM

A single Lone Star detective can make an excellent recurring adversary though. Someone who's not really a bad guy, but is constantly dogging the runners' heels. It's fun to have a little cat and mouse with those guys.

Posted by: Draconis Aug 30 2007, 06:08 PM

QUOTE (cryptoknight @ Aug 29 2007, 03:49 AM)

As soon as they get their Ruger Thunderbolts back... they will be scary again... Right now I think they're packing Predator IV's... so not as much...

I miss my pair of custom Thunderbolts.

In our current game and come to think of it SR3, Lone star was and is zero threat. In SR4 fake IDs are extremely cheap and lets face it we seldom hit urbanized areas all that often lately. In SR3 our op tempo was ridiculous, on tues we where in Borneo on Weds Hawaii, by the weekend we where in Europe, try and track that. No we didn't use public transport.

I suppose if we ran in one area or city constantly the Star would be more of a threat, but I doubt it. Stay mobile, Stay alive.

Posted by: Buster Aug 30 2007, 06:43 PM

In SR4 it's an easy matrix trace to see everywhere you've been back and forth across the world and up and down the well. Or rather to see where your SIN has been. You're required by law to transmit your SIN at all times in nice neighborhoods and all checkpoints (like airports, borders, ports, etc). Only fake SINs protect you and they are very expensive. Even with fake SINs you have to be careful if you're switching between SINs. Checkpoint guard: "Hmm, this SIN was last seen in Borneo, how did you get here in Frankfurt without going through checkpoints? You'll have to come with me."

Posted by: Backgammon Aug 30 2007, 08:04 PM

To keep cyberpunk flavour, IMO the Star should be really sucky at investigating, but very good at brutality. They have a lot of trouble with actual detective work, so when they catch someone they make an example of him. So they use fear and brutality rather than efficiency. So they'll beat the shit out of a 12 year old orc jaywalking to make an example, and they may even beat the shit out of suspected shadowrunners that think they are smarter than them. They'll often know what gang did what crime, but they can't pin the individuals in court, so they'll catch some gang members (doesnt matter which) and beat them to a suitable degree as punishment. Due process, evidence, rights... they get in the way.

Posted by: Draconis Aug 31 2007, 12:05 AM

QUOTE (Buster @ Aug 30 2007, 06:43 PM)

Actually the various databases seldom talk to each other.
I could get arrested, ya right, in the NAN and they'd never know I'm wanted in London on a string of felonies.

Hmmm rating 6 ID is 6,000 nuyen. That's expensive? I couldn't even see why you'd buy less than rating 6. We change SINs like we change underwear, once a week. Ha! Just kidding, my character doesn't wear underwear.

Posted by: DTFarstar Aug 31 2007, 12:26 AM

I think a large part of the threat from the Star depends on the power level of your game. Look at the contrast here

QUOTE (Draconis)

In SR4 fake IDs are extremely cheap

and

QUOTE (Buster)

Only fake SINs protect you and they are very expensive.

So.... grungy power game, Lone Star is hardcore, high power private jet using skipping airports and checkpoints games.... not so much.

Chris

Posted by: Draconis Aug 31 2007, 12:44 AM

QUOTE (DTFarstar)

I think a large part of the threat from the Star depends on the power level of your game. Look at the contrast here

QUOTE (Draconis)

In SR4 fake IDs are extremely cheap

and

QUOTE (Buster)

Only fake SINs protect you and they are very expensive.

So.... grungy power game, Lone Star is hardcore, high power private jet using skipping airports and checkpoints games.... not so much.

Chris

You should write cliff notes. You're quite good.

Posted by: hyzmarca Aug 31 2007, 01:08 AM

Take a clue from the Genesis/Megadrive Shadowrun game.

They're better armed and armored than gangers, but aren't a threat to Wired 3 Samurai in small groups. They are, however, a threat in groups of 4 or more. Against characters with no initiative enhancement and low skill, even a single officer can be deadly.

In order to understand Lone Star one must understand the concept on on-the-spot fines. If a person is caught commiting a felony, Lone Star officers will generally allow that person to walk away if he can immediately pay a "fine" because it is easier to do so than it is to go through the paperwork of making an arrest.

Fighting an officer is a risky proposition unless you are both ruthless and insane, due to their tendency to call fro backup combined with their superior equipment. Bribing one is easy and cheap. Most will overlook minor offenses such as grenade possession and the murder of unimportant people for 500 nuyen.

Posted by: Cthulhudreams Aug 31 2007, 01:29 AM

The lonestar cop on the street will be not that tough really, but he is going to call for backup, and the organization behind lonestar can afford to have drones flying around with merely dozens of anti tank missiles on call to explode the heck out of you.

Posted by: TheMadDutchman Aug 31 2007, 02:32 AM

The real issue here is numbers.

One Star sure- easy.

But when you've got to brank into a bank to get something valuable out of the safety deposit boxes and the alarm gets tripped and before you know it you're surrounded and they're calling from an outside line and saying words like "sign of good faith" That's when you're in trouble because that's when they're calling the shots.

Posted by: DTFarstar Aug 31 2007, 04:42 AM

Sorry, I know it was obvious, but I've noticed if you have someone put things in a very easy to read and understand form every now and again it keeps threads from being cluttered with the same ideas and it generally keeps the arguing to a minimum.

Chris

Posted by: Draconis Aug 31 2007, 06:29 AM

QUOTE (DTFarstar @ Aug 31 2007, 04:42 AM)

I was actually quite serious, you summed it up nicely.
You'll find though that the threads will get cluttered no matter what you say however. The troll bowfest is a good example. Arguing to a minimum? Where's the fun in that? I want to use someone's premise as a chewtoy.

Posted by: Riley37 Sep 18 2007, 12:25 PM

Props to DTFarStar for pointing out the power level factor. Some of us like playing at the level of, say, "Neuromancer" or "Hardwired"; none of the major characters in those stories could single-handedly wipe out squads of gunmen.

LoneStar can, in a single campaign, range from "cheap drones and undertrained guards" to "serious challenge, PCs better run away or talk convincingly", depending on what they're protecting. If no one in authority cares what happens in a low-rent neighborhood, then LS won't bother dispatching their elite forces to that area. But if you cause trouble in front of City Hall, they'll fear the risk to their lucrative tax-funded contract, and they'll make sure that they're visibly effective. Same if you cause trouble at a mall, because the Merchants Association will call the Premium Customer Hotline, and money talks.

Have you ever had PCs team up with LoneStar? Bug spirits are bad news for everyone, including the people who pay LoneStar; if the city they work for discovered a hive, they'd have a vested interest in cooperating with skilled, well-armed freelancers, although "after this is over, all bets are off".

Posted by: imperialus Sep 18 2007, 04:30 PM

QUOTE (Draconis @ Aug 30 2007, 06:05 PM)

Hmmm rating 6 ID is 6,000 nuyen. That's expensive? I couldn't even see why you'd buy less than rating 6. We change SINs like we change underwear, once a week. Ha! Just kidding, my character doesn't wear underwear.

Unfortunatly given the 18 availability of a rating 6 SIN, with say 12 dice in Negotiation+Cha test you're looking at 10 days to get one (assuming you buy sucesses), and that's with a pretty good face. Mr Ugly the troll street Sam with a charisma of 2, negotiation 2 is looking at 36 days. If Mr Ugly doubles the price up to 12000¥ he'd be able to buy 2 sucesses. He's down to 18 days but it just cost him twice as much. It would make sence to me at least for each PC to have to make these rolls on their own. They can't just send the face shopping for them. A SIN, especially one at rating 6 is going to have to be custom tailored to the individual which means that individual is going to have to deal with whoever is making it.

Depending on how nasty your GM is I'd also assume a continueing Law Enforcement Crackdown on them since valid SIN's are one of the most valuable tools that law enforcement has. That could increase the cost up to 9000¥. If Mr Ugly still wants to buy the SIN he's looking at either 15000¥ or 18000¥ depending on if you apply the 50% increase to the base price or the modified price. Either way though SIN's can start to get very expensive, very quickly.

Of course I'd also allow a player to buy several SIN's at once so that he can have several in reserve. The flip side though is that this would require a pretty good chunk of cash up front.

Posted by: stevebugge Sep 18 2007, 06:30 PM

In my game world Lonestar is as effective as they are paid to be, meaning there is a very wide range of response. On the general city contract in Seattle the response times are fairly good in good neighborhoods (and in neighborhoods where the association pays a supplement they can be very good indeed) and range down towards response times of "poor", "eventually", "maybe", and "forget it" in poorer neighborhoods. Their armament, training level, and equipment is based on Cost, Loss Potential, and Marketability. The street patrols usually pack enough to stop the average criminal in the area they are assigned to, but serious threats (like Shadowrunners) usually will be an instant call for back up, with the level of response dictated by a risk/reward calculation (I actually have actuaries in the dispatch offices in my game). The business aspect affects assignment too, for example a veteran Human Officer with good training and social skills will most likely be assigned to a AAA to A rated neighborhood and issued new equipment, and will be used equally to serve and protect the more influential taxpayers in those areas. A Metahuman officers, officers with blemishes on their records, and less senior, less socially apt officers will draw suceedingly lower class areas for their assignments.

In short I treat Lonestar more like a business than a police force.

Posted by: MaxHunter Sep 19 2007, 04:06 AM

funny, I am just returning from a gaming session and oh, the whole group was caught and arrested and now I am thinking about the next session being about "life in the joint". (I'm the Gm)

I am probably going to make a new thread about it so you can chip in and give me some ideas.

BTW: It was a run in Boston, so no LS, the runners were arrested by KE

Cheers,

Max

Posted by: kzt Sep 19 2007, 04:47 AM

"Gentlemen, and I use that word loosely, I have a set of choices for you. You can spend the next 10 to 15 years being Bubba's girlfriend, or you can help us with a little issue we have. . . "

Posted by: Alex Sep 19 2007, 06:29 AM

I'll second hyzmarca and add the following:

They are as effective as they have to be to hold their contract.