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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Zurich Orbital Falling
Posted by: Serial_Peacemaker Sep 4 2007, 12:05 AM
Zurich Orbital, home of the Corporate Court. What exactly would be the repercussions if someone manages to destroy it, and make it catastrophically de-orbit? I mean do all those bank accounts go away? The Nuyen is based out of Z-O so shouldn't it plummet? What about the ten mysterious masters on the Orbital, are they really that important, or just figureheads?
Posted by: Ancient History Sep 4 2007, 12:36 AM
If you hit Lofwyr with it, you win the game.
Posted by: Gelare Sep 4 2007, 12:37 AM
I'm not sure what would happen, but I think that by "ten mysterious masters" you mean "thirteen Corporate Court judges", although some of them commute and some of them telecommute.
Posted by: Serial_Peacemaker Sep 4 2007, 01:47 AM
Really? I thought it was ten. Though really does anyone know anything about them, other than that they are in charge of the corporate court? I mean even as general as if they are say all humans.
Posted by: Demonseed Elite Sep 4 2007, 02:08 AM
The Zurich Orbital has a handful of permanent residents, who are neither the thirteen Corporate Court Justices nor the nine ZOG Bank Directors. They are very old people with lots of money, lots of influence, or both. The last time they were detailed there were six and they were covered on page 19 of Corporate Download.
The thirteen Corporate Court Justices were last detailed on page 22 of Corporate Download. Not all of the Justices live aboard the Orbital, some of them only shuttle up for significant private meetings and others only telecommute to the Orbital meetings. In addition, this is not the whole of the Corporate Court. Thousands of staff lawyers, economists, and administrators live Earthside and work for the CC every day.
The nine Bank Directors of the Zurich-Orbital Gemeinschaft Bank also do not all live aboard the Orbital. They were also last detailed on page 23 of Corporate Download and of the nine, only two had the Zurich Orbital listed as their place of residence.
If the Orbital were to fall out of the sky, there would be huge repercussions on the global economy, but not because of the deaths of those aboard or even because of the destruction of the computer networks aboard the Orbital. There would be a sudden dive in the confidence in the nuyen and the ZOG Bank might even have to shut the nuyen exchange for an indeterminate amount of time. They would most likely recover (the ZOG does have terrestrial banks and likely has data backups) but in the meantime you'd have corporations cut off from their primary source of credit and things would likely get nasty fast between them.
Posted by: Cthulhudreams Sep 4 2007, 02:19 AM
| QUOTE (Demonseed Elite) |
| The Zurich Orbital has a handful of permanent residents, who are neither the thirteen Corporate Court Justices nor the nine ZOG Bank Directors. They are very old people with lots of money, lots of influence, or both. The last time they were detailed there were six and they were covered on page 19 of Corporate Download. The thirteen Corporate Court Justices were last detailed on page 22 of Corporate Download. Not all of the Justices live aboard the Orbital, some of them only shuttle up for significant private meetings and others only telecommute to the Orbital meetings. In addition, this is not the whole of the Corporate Court. Thousands of staff lawyers, economists, and administrators live Earthside and work for the CC every day. The nine Bank Directors of the Zurich-Orbital Gemeinschaft Bank also do not all live aboard the Orbital. They were also last detailed on page 23 of Corporate Download and of the nine, only two had the Zurich Orbital listed as their place of residence. If the Orbital were to fall out of the sky, there would be huge repercussions on the global economy, but not because of the deaths of those aboard or even because of the destruction of the computer networks aboard the Orbital. There would be a sudden dive in the confidence in the nuyen and the ZOG Bank might even have to shut the nuyen exchange for an indeterminate amount of time. They would most likely recover (the ZOG does have terrestrial banks and likely has data backups) but in the meantime you'd have corporations cut off from their primary source of credit and things would likely get nasty fast between them. |
err.. wouldn't they be total clowns if they didn't have at least one and probably more fully active data centers ready to go if ZO falls over, with live copies of all the data synced against every transaction ready to roll.
All concepts of the future aside, I imagine the link up to ZO isn't flawless so you'd want fully redundant capability on the ground ready to roll includes it rains heavily, or there is an electrical storm or whatever.
Posted by: Serial_Peacemaker Sep 4 2007, 02:21 AM
Ah. That does make sense I didn't think anyone would put all their eggs in one basket.
Posted by: kzt Sep 4 2007, 02:29 AM
Which is why I planned to have Japan deniably hit it with an ASAT while everyone was meeting, to control the fallout while they conducted a "boardroom coup" of certain Japanese-based megacorps with commandos and airstrikes. Sort of an unofficial withdrawal from the assorted treaties allowing extraterritoriality.
Posted by: kzt Sep 4 2007, 02:33 AM
| QUOTE (Cthulhudreams) |
| err.. wouldn't they be total clowns if they didn't have at least one and probably more fully active data centers ready to go if ZO falls over, with live copies of all the data synced against every transaction ready to roll. |
Yes. And this is Shadowrun, where only the mentally retarded are allowed to run computer operations. Nobody ever backs up anything in shadowrun. That's why we have these huge crashes. Not to mention missions to go steal "all copies of xyz", which is impossible if people actually acted like they do in the real world and had backup copies off-site in multiple secure centers.
Posted by: Cthulhudreams Sep 4 2007, 02:36 AM
| QUOTE (kzt) |
| Which is why I planned to have Japan deniably hit it with an ASAT while everyone was meeting, to control the fallout while they conducted a "boardroom coup" of certain Japanese-based megacorps with commandos and airstrikes. Sort of an unofficial withdrawal from the assorted treaties allowing extraterritoriality. |
Well assuming you took out the inter-bank trading system at the same time (probably not hard) you could cause a fair degree of collapse in an already destabilized infrastructure!
Posted by: nathanross Sep 4 2007, 02:38 AM
Besides the fact that they are the evil overlord kind of people, they are not near stupid enough to keep all their eggs in one basket, much less one basket in such a precarious position. Everything would not just fall apart and all the corps go to war just because the parents went away.
I do see a lot of nervousness between the corps, probably extending into the shadows and a lot of minor scale shadow activity between corps until everything is resolved.
Posted by: Cthulhudreams Sep 4 2007, 02:55 AM
| QUOTE (kzt) | ||
Yes. And this is Shadowrun, where only the mentally retarded are allowed to run computer operations. Nobody ever backs up anything in shadowrun. That's why we have these huge crashes. Not to mention missions to go steal "all copies of xyz", which is impossible if people actually acted like they do in the real world and had backup copies off-site in multiple secure centers. |
I suspect it depends on the exact line of business and the actual capability of the section you are dealing with. I've worked for some largish and high profile clients with complete clown shoes for their backup management setups.
Including some guys that had their disaster recovery site as a closet in a second building. Except that all traffic from the second building was routed through the first building.. so if the main site went down the DR site.. was useless. Backups where equally effectively managed.
I imagine the finance industry is somewhat better though. From what I know about swift and other such systems it is actually pretty good.
Posted by: Demonseed Elite Sep 4 2007, 03:02 AM
Sure, the ZO has redundant systems, but it's unlikely those will switch over instantly without a hitch. And when you are the bank of the megacorporations and the reserve bank for the global currency, any interruption is a big deal. Panic alone is a concern, outside of any technical difficulties.
The New York Stock Exchange was closed for nearly a week after the attack on the World Trade Center. It's fair to believe there would be some interruption in service if the Orbital came tumbling out of the sky.
Posted by: Serial_Peacemaker Sep 4 2007, 03:09 AM
Mostly I'm trying to figure out which way to create the greatest amount of fear uncertainty and doubt that is possible. All without getting Crash 3.0. Mostly as a way to give runners more to do.
Posted by: Cthulhudreams Sep 4 2007, 03:17 AM
| QUOTE (Demonseed Elite @ Sep 3 2007, 10:02 PM) |
| Sure, the ZO has redundant systems, but it's unlikely those will switch over instantly without a hitch. And when you are the bank of the megacorporations and the reserve bank for the global currency, any interruption is a big deal. Panic alone is a concern, outside of any technical difficulties. The New York Stock Exchange was closed for nearly a week after the attack on the World Trade Center. It's fair to believe there would be some interruption in service if the Orbital came tumbling out of the sky. |
Mhm, something like SWIFT http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_for_Worldwide_Interbank_Financial_Telecommunication
which is directly analogous to ZO (right down to be a co-operative owned by the banks that use it's interbanking transaction services) actually has higher avalibility requirements than the NYSE - and from what I can see the NYSE was not shut down because of any physical impact to it's infrastructure, rather trading is suspended when bad things happen. But interbank financial transfers (which ZO presumably handles) have to go on in that sort of environment.
SWIFT can do live, seamless failover. Well, they SAY they can, I've no proof either way.
Edit: That said I think anyone blowing up ZO's space station would create lots of fear and uncertainty ;P
Posted by: kzt Sep 4 2007, 03:37 AM
| QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Sep 3 2007, 08:17 PM) |
| and from what I can see the NYSE was not shut down because of any physical impact to it's infrastructure, rather trading is suspended when bad things happen. |
My boss, who was on a DMAT team at WTC, has pictures from inside the Verizon CO that serves lower Manhattan. Featured prominently in the pictures are two things you never want to see in a central office. The sky and fire hoses.
When WTC 7 collapsed it took out power for the entire area, as WTC 7 was built over the rather huge CommEd substation that preexisted the WTC complex. Not sure what direct impact this had on the CO (as they have floors of batteries and huge generators), but it wasn't great for those who didn't.
Posted by: Big D Sep 4 2007, 03:40 AM
| QUOTE |
| Edit: That said I think anyone blowing up ZO's space station would create lots of fear and uncertainty ;P |
Exactly. Taking down Z-O will not magically make the economy stop working because the physical Z-O was so important--taking down Z-O will cause something less than a Crash but still massively devastating, because it throws massive Fear, Uncertainity, and Doubt into the equation.
Witness any good bank run. Heck, look at the current mortgage brouhaha, where one industry drifting too far over the line for too long caused a backlash, which then spiraled into all kinds of places as people got scared. There was a real, if small, chance of it causing a general panic; hence the speeches and promises of lower central bank rates, just to keep confidence up.
So, if somebody drops Z-O, it's not the fact that they dropped Z-O that counts; it's the fact that they fired a broadside right smack into the corps *and* the world economy, *knowing* the consequences. Anybody who's confident (or crazy--see Winternight) enough to do something like that, has enough moxie to completely shake things up, or they wouldn't have tried.
| QUOTE |
| Which is why I planned to have Japan deniably hit it with an ASAT while everyone was meeting, to control the fallout while they conducted a "boardroom coup" of certain Japanese-based megacorps with commandos and airstrikes. Sort of an unofficial withdrawal from the assorted treaties allowing extraterritoriality. |
In this example with Japan, either Japan has the ability to (de facto or de jure)nationalize all domestic corp assets, weather the resulting storm, and get a pass back into the global economy when all is said and done, or the government falls after the Omega Order goes out and the Thor shots start falling. *Either way*, little and big fish alike are going to be scurrying for their hideyholes until it blows over, and *that* is what will cause the chaos and panic.
EDIT: Added quotes from Cthulu and kzt for clarity.
Posted by: Cthulhudreams Sep 4 2007, 03:44 AM
| QUOTE (kzt @ Sep 3 2007, 10:37 PM) | ||
My boss, who was on a DMAT team at WTC, has pictures from inside the Verizon CO that serves lower Manhattan. Featured prominently in the pictures are two things you never want to see in a central office. The sky and fire hoses. When WTC 7 collapsed it took out power for the entire area, as WTC 7 was built over the rather huge CommEd substation that preexisted the WTC complex. Not sure what direct impact this had on the CO (as they have floors of batteries and huge generators), but it wasn't great for those who didn't. |
Yeah, it would be bad news.
However, I'd see ZO as falling into the floors of batteries + real business continuity in multiple secure locations that make anything the Us govenment has atm look like a joke etc as one of the key purposes of a central bank (read: Zürich Orbital) is to provide ready access to a large amount of funds in times of crisis to smooth over liquidity problems, the system for lending money from the central bank has to god damn work in times of crisis otherwise you are completely boned - one of the notable things in the sept 9/11 attacks was how much money the banks of America borrowed off the federal reserve, tens of billions of dollars.
If ZO is the central bank of the mega corps (which it seems to be) then ZO has to be able to dispense massive amounts of cash to the mega corps when there is a crisis that causes liquidity issues. If it cannot then finance system explodes whenever there is a serious crisis (every three seconds in the SR4 verse).
Posted by: kzt Sep 4 2007, 03:45 AM
| QUOTE (Big D @ Sep 3 2007, 08:40 PM) |
| or the government falls after the Omega Order goes out and the Thor shots start falling. *Either way*, little and big fish alike are going to be scurrying for their hideyholes until it blows over, and *that* is what will cause the chaos and panic. |
The plan was they made a deal with Aries. . . Who controls the Thor systems. And with no corporate court there isn't anyone to order an attack or pass any other order. Such an "unfortunate terrorist attack".
And when they reconstitute the CC the newly appointed Japanacorp judges and Aries can probably put together a working majority.
Posted by: Big D Sep 4 2007, 04:03 AM
You can do that; just make sure that you work through how all of the major players react.
Does Lofwyr ignore it, because they wouldn't dare go after him (and maybe he saw this coming, and prepped for it already)?
Do other countries start getting ideas about nationalizing *their* domestic corps or corp assets, as a result?
What about the Azzies? What about the other Asian megas? Just because Japan manages a majority bloc in the Corp Court, doesn't mean that they "win". They don't "win" until the other corps decide to let it go and let them get away with it. Which is entirely possible; no sense in risking your entire corp over your competitors *unless* you think it puts you on the chopping block, too...
Posted by: Serial_Peacemaker Sep 4 2007, 05:22 AM
Well at that point I think you pretty much just started WWIII, and a massive turning point of either getting the Megacorps truly cemented in, or a swing back towards nation-states. That is just a guess though. I mean I bet most nations are going to have to do something during such an event.
Posted by: Cthulhudreams Sep 4 2007, 05:30 AM
| QUOTE (Big D @ Sep 3 2007, 11:03 PM) |
| Do other countries start getting ideas about nationalizing *their* domestic corps or corp assets, as a result? |
If two japan courts and the azzies are nationalised, thats 30% of the corp court in *national* hands. I can see that lots of places would go bezerk. thats 1.5 security council seats.
The funny thing is it would probably also cause a drive for the pissant countries that have sprung up everywhere to reunite. If there was a nationalisation drive, it makes a huge deal of sense of CAS/UCAS to get back together - who is going to get something like ARES?
Posted by: kzt Sep 4 2007, 05:54 AM
| QUOTE (Serial_Peacemaker) |
| Well at that point I think you pretty much just started WWIII, and a massive turning point of either getting the Megacorps truly cemented in, or a swing back towards nation-states. That is just a guess though. I mean I bet most nations are going to have to do something during such an event. |
Sure. But the wider effects Japan doesn't really care about, Japan in all about Japan. Whether everyone or anyone throws of "the yoke of servitude to the megacorps" or nobody does really doesn't matter. It's all about Japan and the Japanacorps screwing with the Empire.
And Japan is really unlike just about any other nation in that it has a real force projection capability, it has a heavy duty space program (Want to bet they they can't redirect the gigwatts of output of each of the dozens of SPS in a rather more coherent and destructive form? Want to bet that they don't have lots of other interesting tricks awaiting?) that proved in could move megatons of gear to GEO, and they can really, really hurt corps and nations who screw with them.
How many corporation boards of directors want to get their facilities destroyed and themselves personally killed to avenge Renraku?
Posted by: kzt Sep 4 2007, 06:14 AM
| QUOTE (Cthulhudreams) |
| If two japan courts and the azzies are nationalised, thats 30% of the corp court in *national* hands. I can see that lots of places would go bezerk. thats 1.5 security council seats. |
No, it's a lot more than 1.5 or 30%
Japan would have: Shiawase, Renraku, Mitsuhama. Last time they listed the members that is 4 members of 13. They are founders, so they will always have at least 3 seats.
Aries, assumed to be in on this, has two. (It's a founder)
Evo (Which for the personal grudges of Buttercup, etc is assumed to be willing to support them in bringing the Japancorps to heel) has one. (and is a founder also)
That's 7 of 13. A working majority.
At worst they would probably be able to shut down attempts to do anything drastic, as I'd assume it requires a supermajority to do anything really drastic.
Posted by: Big D Sep 4 2007, 07:42 AM
Again, "drastic" doesn't mean just going to the UN and trying to get sanc--err, getting the CC to slap down or even OO somebody, and giving up if that fails.
Drastic means that some or all of the remaining CEOs decide that this is an intolerable offense, a clear and present danger to the existence of AAAs in general.
We're talking anything from massively increased shadow activity to all-out *real* corp war, which has never really happened (the Azzies got virtually a slap on the wrist in comparison--what, *one* facility blown up?).
Feel free to go there, but remember, you're talking about an event potentially bigger than the Crash. If you don't want it to go that far, give the other CEOs a very good reason not to (beyond mere threats from other corps--they're considering their long-term *survival* here).
Posted by: Draconis Sep 4 2007, 09:58 AM
| QUOTE (Big D @ Sep 4 2007, 03:40 AM) | ||||
Exactly. Taking down Z-O will not magically make the economy stop working because the physical Z-O was so important--taking down Z-O will cause something less than a Crash but still massively devastating, because it throws massive Fear, Uncertainity, and Doubt into the equation. Witness any good bank run. Heck, look at the current mortgage brouhaha, where one industry drifting too far over the line for too long caused a backlash, which then spiraled into all kinds of places as people got scared. There was a real, if small, chance of it causing a general panic; hence the speeches and promises of lower central bank rates, just to keep confidence up. So, if somebody drops Z-O, it's not the fact that they dropped Z-O that counts; it's the fact that they fired a broadside right smack into the corps *and* the world economy, *knowing* the consequences. Anybody who's confident (or crazy--see Winternight) enough to do something like that, has enough moxie to completely shake things up, or they wouldn't have tried.
In this example with Japan, either Japan has the ability to (de facto or de jure)nationalize all domestic corp assets, weather the resulting storm, and get a pass back into the global economy when all is said and done, or the government falls after the Omega Order goes out and the Thor shots start falling. *Either way*, little and big fish alike are going to be scurrying for their hideyholes until it blows over, and *that* is what will cause the chaos and panic. EDIT: Added quotes from Cthulu and kzt for clarity. |
Oh please, if Z-O fell out of the sky and crashed into some guys house in Ohio you know what would happen? The corps would spin it in a heartbeat, "It was an unfortunate accident, but it was an aging system. We already had plans to replace it anyway. Here let me show you version 2."
Everyone and their dog would be claiming credit so the truth would never come out. There would be like a week of no trading not because of technical difficulties, but because they want skittish finance people to calm down while the PR doctors work their magic.
Also Z-O like most stations is modular. It's feasible large sections would be jettisoned and recovered in an emergency.
You people act like they haven't thought of every scenario and planned for it. Lofwyr has certainly proved he has.
Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Sep 4 2007, 11:21 AM
| QUOTE (kzt) |
| The plan was they made a deal with Aries. . . Who controls the Thor systems. |
Actually, there are some more Corps with orbital capabilities - see T:WL.
| QUOTE (kzt) |
| And with no corporate court there isn't anyone to order an attack or pass any other order. |
Sounds like SK suddenly controls Europe, Afrika and the Middle East.
Posted by: apollo124 Sep 4 2007, 02:25 PM
I'm certain there would be maybe a little hitch if Z-O came falling out of the sky. And that could potentially cause some major changes if someone were prepared for it. I mean, we all know about the Nanosecond Buyout. What if someone knew when to start a 30 Second Buyout? I'm not sure how one could do such a thing, but hey, I'm a forklift driver, not a corporate shark.
Posted by: Big D Sep 4 2007, 04:00 PM
| QUOTE (Draconis) | ||||||
Oh please, if Z-O fell out of the sky and crashed into some guys house in Ohio you know what would happen? The corps would spin it in a heartbeat, "It was an unfortunate accident, but it was an aging system. We already had plans to replace it anyway. Here let me show you version 2." Everyone and their dog would be claiming credit so the truth would never come out. There would be like a week of no trading not because of technical difficulties, but because they want skittish finance people to calm down while the PR doctors work their magic. Also Z-O like most stations is modular. It's feasible large sections would be jettisoned and recovered in an emergency. You people act like they haven't thought of every scenario and planned for it. Lofwyr has certainly proved he has. |
Note that this scenario isn't just some cult taking out Z-O with a GGD-style almost-unrepeatable attack.
This is Japan taking out Z-O as the opening move in a gambit to liquidate the Japanacorp senior officers and nationalize those corps. Shooting down Z-O is a means to the end, and it's the end that's going to cause the fireworks.
Posted by: kzt Sep 4 2007, 07:08 PM
They didn't do it, nobody saw them and you can't prove anything.
Posted by: Kyoto Kid Sep 4 2007, 08:28 PM
...Pele's Wrath repositioning... 
Posted by: Draconis Sep 4 2007, 11:29 PM
| QUOTE (Big D) | ||||||||
Note that this scenario isn't just some cult taking out Z-O with a GGD-style almost-unrepeatable attack. This is Japan taking out Z-O as the opening move in a gambit to liquidate the Japanacorp senior officers and nationalize those corps. Shooting down Z-O is a means to the end, and it's the end that's going to cause the fireworks. |
Oh well then you do have WW3. There are rules to prevent M.A.D. corporate or otherwise. Once you throw those out the window it's winner take all.
Posted by: laughingowl Sep 5 2007, 12:27 AM
Hmm if they are smart...
The emporer (or rather a scapegoat, unbeknowest to the emporer) has a group of shadowrunners do it...
Do to the henious activities the Emporer declares martial law, temporarily suspends large poritions of the extraterriotorial treaties and begins to investigate.
During the early days of the investigation, the Emporer finds large amounts of 'soft' evedince connecting the shadowrunners to the Japanation mega-corps.
As a result, the emporer declares war and directly attacks said mega-corp holding (the one's responsible).
While the 'leaders' of course die fighting ... some soft evedince is again found linking the corrupt mega-corps as working to gain power and go from a sizable block of the CC, to 'plains' to control the reformed CC.
The Emporer decalres for crimes, all assists of the 'guilty' mega-corps are siezed and property of the Japanese Goverment (himself).
The Emporer agree to pay signficant fines (but is clear to point out, the 'giulty' have already been punished, it would be in know ones interest if they collapsed the rest of a significant porition of the world economy totally destroying the new JapanCorp.
The Emporer agrees that while the former renegade companies violates their trust with the CC in their bid to take over, 'their' seats are forfieted. Howeer, he does raise that JapanCorp know is a signficant block of the world economy and petitions for A seat on the council.
With a little backroom dealing, the Emporer might just cut it.
To the 'public' the mage-corps did it and were punished....
To the corps, few of the remaining would doubt that the Emporer didnt have some knowledge of the events (if not the pure master mind) ... BUT...
The only ones that 'lost' are the old Japan 'megacoprs' which effectively just got taken over in a not quite so traditional hostile takeover.
The rest of the CC (as long as publicly not setting a bad example) could be persuaded to see things to their advantage.
Three of so less seats on the council (that likely would normally vote as a block) now the reamining ones, have 'more say'
Most of them would be willing to see the busniess aspect of it, and chalk it up to that, as long as 'they profitted' from it AND publicly the people responsible were punished very to keep from setting bad examples.
Hmmm......
Think I know a serious of runs I might have to plan now.....
Posted by: kzt Sep 5 2007, 01:41 AM
I hadn't decided how I would do this. I figured packing a large bomb on a Japancorp shuttle might work, or a 'terrorist' ASAT. But the IJS wasn't going to nationalize them, as that involves taking ownership away from the shareholders. It was just declaring war against the corps and then prosecuting the (surviving) top level management (like the directors and chief officers) for acts of war against IJs and crimes against humanity, with removing extraterritoriality from all corps to keep them from conspiring against the IJS.
The shareholders retain their shares and the IJS simply 'helps' them select 'more suitable' directors and officers, who are not going to committing crimes against humanity and plotting the overthrow of the Emperor. Which also keeps the CC seats. It also removes any need for the IJS to try to directly run the corps, which would be very hard. Better to just put some trusted people on top and make some changes to policy and the corporation by-laws. Kind like of post WW2 japan, without the whole "every city burned to the ground" bit.
Posted by: Fortune Sep 5 2007, 01:45 AM
I just don't see the rest of the Corps laying quietly by while all of this happens.
Posted by: kzt Sep 5 2007, 02:03 AM
That's why the deal with Aries, and the understanding with Evo.
Plus, the IJS is extremely dangerous. Consider the dozens of multi-gigawatt SPS that the IJS has put into orbit. Consider them being used to drive a highly collimated 4 GW beam laser instead of the 4 GW low density microwave transmitter. Consider what someone could put in orbit when they are routinely lofting 30,000 ton SPS to Geo.
Posted by: Fortune Sep 5 2007, 02:13 AM
| QUOTE (kzt) |
| Plus, the IJS is extremely dangerous. |
Maybe, but not against the rest of the World (or the combined might of the Corp world at least). A lot of 'ifs' involved in order to even consider this plan feasible to someone in the Emperor's position.
Posted by: laughingowl Sep 5 2007, 02:23 AM
KZT:
The problem is there is less of a hard core 'enemy' to percieve. Also it would be a direct challange against the CC and all other mega-corps also...
Which the CC couldn't allow without everyone else doing the same....
However, if the Emporer acted to deal with those that would have had an omega order against them (if things werent in shambles) to punish the guilty, bring stablization to the area, and wa functioning within 'present limits' (getting rid of extraterrotial status challanges the CC... EFFECTIVELY getting rid of extraterrortial status, but siezing all assist in Japan, and having them as property of a corp that the CC recognizes DOESNT challange the CC).
Sure nobody 'in the know' would belive it wasnt all a plan on the Emporer's part all along, but as long as the CC was openly challanged / lost authoirty / etc, As long as the 'public' could be convinced the guilty had gone down, and the CC would punish anyone that broke its rules... and it was all done, before mass retliation could be done against the Emporer, then the CC might very well buy it..
Otherwise the admit somebody could strike them like this, which is a bad example.
THE only way Japan could survive this is:
1) The CC signs off for some reason. Which would have to mean it doesnt lose power (or signing off is the way it loses the least, which means PUBLICLY it cant lose power)
2) Some how Japan becomes strong enough to challange every single Mega-Corp out there and survive total war against them and IIRC corectly Ares is not the ONLY THOR shot capable Mega.
3) Japan can kick several other major 'countires' into action, and start WW3 countries vs corps... and be strong enough to survive that way (by not having everyone focused on them, but on multiple nations).
Also 'the shareholders' (atleast Japanese ones) wouldnt really lose anything. Culturaly they are not that far removed from when they were the property of the Emporer anyways ....
Shares would become the new koku. While an executive may manage / own / get paid for a certain percentage of the Emporer's holdings, the corporation is the Emporers.
Even your whole 'have to bother managing it' isnt really a problem... As mentioned they Emporer wouldn't manage, rather his appointed manager would manage...
Nothing changes save at the end of the day, the whole kit and kabodle is the Emporers....
Heck outside of Japan people might not realize it changes that much, since they would still see Boards of Directors, etc... They would just realize (even more so) that 'buying' into the Japancorp become very hard to almost impossible.
Internally it coudl work well with the Japanese culture and rebuild the 'samurai' but the true '80s Busniess Warrior.
How well you fight on the battlefield is as imporant (well the open field, with swords and bows), rather now it is the corporate battlefield. Cost vs. Production, Overhead, etc.
If done right I personally could see the Japanese people buying this, (sure they lose some 'money' when their stocks etc, become semi-worthless... but gain prestige and status (often more important) to offset and the new prestigage / status gives them the abilty to live much as they had before... with hopes of actually being a 'noble'.
The CC could buy it. If done right ... Those that attacked the CC were punished, none of 'their authority' was lost, all they have to do is recogonize a corportate takeover (or ten), collected the penalty fines, and implemented better security to keep others from doing it in the future.
Sure the 'heads' of the Old Corps wouldn't like it, but most of them would be dead....
I am sure there would be some (even the 'guilty') that could be convinced to coperate in the name of breaking the CC hold on the country, even if 'only on paper'. National pride is good enough, I could buy some executives (if the Emporer played his cards right and did the right setup before hand) could be convinced to 'take the fall' and agree they were invovled (probably immediatly afterwards commiting sepuku).
Whether its: The good of Japan, Attone for your sins (of allowing other to do it), and proven your loyality (even if misguided), your family will rule X Corp... or the ever popular... You take the fall and your family lives... I am sure arnold-san over here would be glad to say... YOU led it, and confess all to save his family.....
Posted by: kzt Sep 5 2007, 06:22 AM
| QUOTE (Fortune @ Sep 4 2007, 07:13 PM) |
| Maybe, but not against the rest of the World (or the combined might of the Corp world at least). |
Do you think the surviving shareholders will be impressed that only 90% of the net asset value of their investment was destroyed because the CEO was offended? Will the obliteration of the companies HQs, orbital assets, research and production sites be OK because they killed lots of Japanese in return?
Remember the IJS would not be fighting nation states whose may take provably unprofitable courses of action for reasons of national honor or geopolitical position. They would be fighting corporations whose primary purpose is to enrich their shareholders and whose secondary purpose it to keep existing.
How is it really profitable for a corporation to fight a war where the winner only gets mostly destroyed? Is there any logical way that getting in a hugely destructive war with someone who has nuclear weapons, nuclear subs, nuclear carriers, and extensive orbital weapon systems (with the capability of both energy and kinetic strikes) is likely to result in satisfied shareholders?
Why would corps that didn't take part in this choose to not exploit the hell out of the fact that they can still produce products and still make millions per day money unlike the guys who got mostly bombed flat teaching the Japanese a lesson? Might this possibly this lead to adverse effects on market share? Possibly dramatic long term negative effects?
It would seem likely a corporate officer would consider that there are other ways of exploiting the current "succession issues" in 3 of the big 7 that don't involve having your office and home (and quite possibly yourself) turned into plasma?
Just a thought.
Posted by: laughingowl Sep 5 2007, 07:10 AM
KZT:
I still go there has to be some 'gain' for the CC not declaring war against Japan and/or Japan would still have to obey by the CC laws negotiated.
Otherwise once 'a country' did it, then every other country would... and THAT would effect the bottom line of all the corporations..
Same way with the ACLU.... here in the states. I really don't agree to with the extent they fight somethings...
BUT I can by the dominoe effect.... If we dont fight and make sure it is really reviewed X, then it opens the door to accepting Y being allowed.
Free speach generally doesnt cover you standing on a street corner, and telling people they should go kill Blood Elves....
However, I can respect the fact the ACLU would likely 'try' to fight it... (even though they know they will lose)...
Because once we allow you to stand on the street corner saying you should kill blood elves...
Then you start saying well actually ALL elves should be killed..
Then tall thin people with pointed ears....
Then people taller then me...
If you dont question anything that is remotely quesitonable, you begin to errode your rights...
If the CC appears weak... and allows a country to take away from them alot of their rights...
Then either, the CC smacks they offending person...
or
Every other country gets similiar ideas, and the CC disappears...
Posted by: kzt Sep 5 2007, 07:39 AM
| QUOTE (laughingowl) |
| Every other country gets similiar ideas, and the CC disappears... |
If there was someone comparable, there might be an issue.
As far as I can tell, there isn't any country even vaguely comparable. UCAS sold off it's space program to Aries. As far as I can remember (and look up quickly) there isn't any country with a real space program, and certainly not one that has lifted hundreds of thousands/millions of tons of gear to LEO and GEO. That's a huge deal, becuse it means that they can directly threaten anyplace in the world with kinetic strikes, and (given things you can do with a 4 GW SPS) beam weapons.
Nobody else seems to have the worldwide power projection that a half-dozen nuclear aircraft carriers and support fleet provides. Or any other country that has shown the same recent willingness to use direct military force to achieve it's aims, and been largely successful.
And it's a single unified nation-state with a well established and publicly reasonably well supported government.
In SR, there isn't another nation that has any of these advantages, much less all of them.
Plus the cultural coherence of Japan is pretty astonishing. It's not something that you are going to overcome in a few generations.
So there really isn't that much of threat.
Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Sep 5 2007, 09:19 AM
What's 'Aries'?
Posted by: Fortune Sep 5 2007, 09:23 AM
Ares after SURGE. 
Posted by: Sma Sep 5 2007, 09:23 AM
ARES, now with a free Bonus Letter included in every purchase!
Posted by: kzt Sep 5 2007, 04:10 PM
Posted by: Sterling Sep 5 2007, 10:46 PM
| QUOTE (kzt) |
| They didn't do it, nobody saw them and you can't prove anything. |
My issue is ZO is so heavily secured that you'd have to get really creative to take it out.
Thor shot? If ZO isn't tracking and scanning for any object that looks like it might come within 1k of the station, it's already been cored by enough space debris that it's just a floating hulk itself. Their radar and proximity system is not only designed to track large objects, but anything that poses a threat. They'd have to have a series of satellites covering their geosynchronous orbital path to ensure nothing comes up on their 'blind side'. If any object appears to be headed in their direction, they'd know about it and be able to either move the station or take out the object with countermeasures. If they're ballsy enough to have the ZO station in a non geosynchronous orbit, not only are they hardcore but they have to have an intercept radar/sensor package so powerful and dedicated to insuring they don't go around bouncing off other satellites, etc.
Explosives? They not only have MAD scanners and chemsniffers and radar sensors with triple checks and quad redundancy to scan anything on the ground, anything on the shuttle up has to be declared, inspected, disassembled, reassembled, reinspected, re-disassembeld, placed in a bucket and shrink-wrapped before it can go on board. They're not going to casually glance at your luggage with a modern x-ray and go "What is that, a hairdryer with a scope on it ? That looks okay, keep it moving". "Some sort of bowling ball candle? That's fine, just... we don't want to hold up the line, don't hold up the line." You'd imagine they keep to the strict weight limit, and if you're over the weight limit in terms of cargo, they ask you to lighten your load. Anything you're bringing costs fuel to get it out of the gravity well, and anything you try to smuggle has to get past the guys whose jobs depend on a ZO station that still exists.
Security is going to be tighter than anything the runners have ever seen. If you could field your own shuttle with complete stealth capabilities (visual and radar invisibility) and could approach and dock without detection, then you might be able to unload any payload you care to deliver. Or you could fire missiles/buckshot/lasers at it from point blank range (so it can't use maneuvering jets to 'dodge') until it's a twisted lump of semi-molten plastic and steel floating in space.
That's my take on it. You don't have to go near the extremes I discussed, obviously, but to have the ZO taken out without them transmitting detailed information of the object that took them out, with a start point that corresponds to a black ops satellite owned by corp X? That requires one hell of a perfect plan, in my mind.
Obviously, if the GM claims 'it blew up', then someone did indeed have a near perfect plan!
The loss would cause an economic depression, possibly even a financial meltdown. No one would trust the banks if they can't even keep their own space station safe. If their property's so easily lost, what that say about my money!!
Posted by: Draconis Sep 5 2007, 11:09 PM
| QUOTE (Sterling @ Sep 5 2007, 10:46 PM) | ||
My issue is ZO is so heavily secured that you'd have to get really creative to take it out. Thor shot? If ZO isn't tracking and scanning for any object that looks like it might come within 1k of the station, it's already been cored by enough space debris that it's just a floating hulk itself. Their radar and proximity system is not only designed to track large objects, but anything that poses a threat. They'd have to have a series of satellites covering their geosynchronous orbital path to ensure nothing comes up on their 'blind side'. If any object appears to be headed in their direction, they'd know about it and be able to either move the station or take out the object with countermeasures. If they're ballsy enough to have the ZO station in a non geosynchronous orbit, not only are they hardcore but they have to have an intercept radar/sensor package so powerful and dedicated to insuring they don't go around bouncing off other satellites, etc. Explosives? They not only have MAD scanners and chemsniffers and radar sensors with triple checks and quad redundancy to scan anything on the ground, anything on the shuttle up has to be declared, inspected, disassembled, reassembled, reinspected, re-disassembeld, placed in a bucket and shrink-wrapped before it can go on board. They're not going to casually glance at your luggage with a modern x-ray and go "What is that, a hairdryer with a scope on it ? That looks okay, keep it moving". "Some sort of bowling ball candle? That's fine, just... we don't want to hold up the line, don't hold up the line." You'd imagine they keep to the strict weight limit, and if you're over the weight limit in terms of cargo, they ask you to lighten your load. Anything you're bringing costs fuel to get it out of the gravity well, and anything you try to smuggle has to get past the guys whose jobs depend on a ZO station that still exists. Security is going to be tighter than anything the runners have ever seen. If you could field your own shuttle with complete stealth capabilities (visual and radar invisibility) and could approach and dock without detection, then you might be able to unload any payload you care to deliver. Or you could fire missiles/buckshot/lasers at it from point blank range (so it can't use maneuvering jets to 'dodge') until it's a twisted lump of semi-molten plastic and steel floating in space. That's my take on it. You don't have to go near the extremes I discussed, obviously, but to have the ZO taken out without them transmitting detailed information of the object that took them out, with a start point that corresponds to a black ops satellite owned by corp X? That requires one hell of a perfect plan, in my mind. Obviously, if the GM claims 'it blew up', then someone did indeed have a near perfect plan! The loss would cause an economic depression, possibly even a financial meltdown. No one would trust the banks if they can't even keep their own space station safe. If their property's so easily lost, what that say about my money!! |
For killsat capability we like to use small satellites filled with directional explosives under ball bearings. Sort of a space claymore mine. They're so small they tend to sneak up close pretty good. Remember there's a lot of crap in space, there's even more when that puppy goes off. Try shooting down a cloud of ball bearings zipping in at you.
Oh ya and then there's our classic... Monowire strung for a kilometer or more between two satellites. The old clothesline trick.
We're a terror in space.
Posted by: Serial_Peacemaker Sep 6 2007, 01:23 AM
I don't know anything going at relativistic speeds is going to be a bitch to track. Since when you see it, it won't be there. I mean it is a bugger to get anything going that fast, but it is possible. Also the problem with an anti-missile defense of any sort is that if you can defend against twenty missiles, it won't help if you get hit with forty. My idea is that someone builds a lot of small fast orbital killers, and basically spams them at ZO. I mean unless the setting has changed isn't their an anarchist conclave at one of the Lerange points?
Posted by: laughingowl Sep 6 2007, 01:50 AM
Ohh I agree that 'right now' Japan is likely the most logical candiate..
The problem is IF the CC allowed it to happen...
How long until UCAS (either partenring with Ares or somebody else) re-builds it space program (eitherdirectly or 'contracting' much like the present US postal system is actually a private company).;
While right now Japan is possibly the only one that could seriously do this... or atleast is the best... (though space power isnt 'necessarily needed') Then again, USCAS coudl take the exact same approach Japan 'did'...
Blame 'Ares' for some horrendous thing, storm and take over major Ares facilties. (with a few key insiders) It is even likely they could get codes and/or possibliy 'some' of the oribital stations.
A quick lighting strike, major boardroom leaders dead before anything is known... 'Public' opion saying Ares bombed the vatican (or some such)...
Sure UCAS couldn't (likely) take over ALL Ares space programs... but a few... and the rest looking at a world that thinks: 1) Ares (leaders) were the evilest sons of bitches since they guy that invented neck ties... 2) Most of Ares 'ground' isntallation controlled by UCAS (which means no re-supply)...
The hold outs have the option of sucide strikes and die.... (like bomber submariners) or play the party line... Ares was evil (atleast the upper management scapegoats) and they fully support a responsible goverment taking over and investigating the evil (once made clear that those that play ball were clearly following orders and didnt have a choice)....
Once the CC caves into a bully (even if the only bully on the block).... other wanna be bullies will start building pushing their luck...
The CC (like any dictator) can NOT afford to appear weak / ineffective.... if something challanges their authority it either goes down... or the CC goes down (ultimately)....
Posted by: laughingowl Sep 6 2007, 01:52 AM
To take out Z-O...
Shuttle full of eplosives... with range to reach Z-O.... doesnt really matter how fast, but the faster the better..
Force 10 or so spirit.... Movement power... By the time the shuttle appears on your sensors... you get authorization to engage... its already impacted....
Through concealment on it too and Z-O doesnt stand a chance...
Sucide Van bombers and spirits are best friends......
Posted by: Fortune Sep 6 2007, 02:03 AM
| QUOTE (laughingowl) |
| Force 10 or so spirit.... |
How does your Spirit function in rarefied Mana of Space?
Posted by: laughingowl Sep 6 2007, 02:42 AM
The SPIRIT does function in rarefied space..
A spirit can use its power on something and then sustain it and go elsewhere...
[QUOTE]
Sustained powers may be maintained over time at no effort or cost. Because these powers are innate, the critter is not subject to any strain or modifi ers for keeping the eff ect going. Even taking damage will not disrupt these powers’ ability to sustain. Also, line of sight does not have to be maintained aft er the power takes hold of its target. Critters may sustain a number of powers equal to their Magic at one time. Permanent powers must be maintained for a specifi c period of time before the eff ects become permanent, as noted in the power’s description. Other powers may have a Special duration, meaning that the duration of the eff ect depends upon other factors, as noted in the description.[/QUOTE]
The spirit at the launch facility (or anypalce) uses concealment and movement on said vehicle...
The spirit then is asked to sweep the floors in the bathroom of the launch facilty (well protected of course)...
Shuttle has concealment and movement buff until next sunrise /sunset
EDIT:
The spirit never needs to leave earth though there is room for debate on the effect of the powers:
[quote = SM 118]Pre-existing wards, mana barriers, active foci, sustained
spells, and quickened/anchored spells are similarly affected.[/quote]
'Powers' are noticably missing from this list... this COULD be an ommision and they should be effected (since they are tied to magic), then again this may not be an ommision (and RAW is listed as being effective) and there is some some precedence since things like spell defense dont effect powers. (nor for that matter have I seen anythign that says 'powers' can pass through wards.... (if they cant wait 'force' do they use to break through)...
IF ebbs/warps effect your spirit, then just have the spirit travel to a friendly aspect ward...
Suddenly your force 10-12 spirit become 15-17... even in a total void the shuttle has a force 5-10 movement buff and concealment buff....
Though RAW... powers are NOT listed as being effected...
Posted by: Big D Sep 6 2007, 03:36 AM
See the earlier space travel thread. Heck, we got into a debate over whether you could break c (and it sounds as though that's legal).
So, yeah, build a really big SAM, grab a high-force spirit, and you could make it, especially if you're looking for an impact rather than a docking (where you have to match velocity). Think of the approach that China just used.
Posted by: kzt Sep 6 2007, 04:16 AM
| QUOTE (laughingowl) |
| Blame 'Ares' for some horrendous thing, storm and take over major Ares facilties. (with a few key insiders) It is even likely they could get codes and/or possibliy 'some' of the oribital stations. A quick lighting strike, major boardroom leaders dead before anything is known... 'Public' opion saying Ares bombed the vatican (or some such)... Sure UCAS couldn't (likely) take over ALL Ares space programs... but a few... and the rest looking at a world that thinks: 1) Ares (leaders) were the evilest sons of bitches since they guy that invented neck ties... 2) Most of Ares 'ground' isntallation controlled by UCAS (which means no re-supply)... |
In my not so humble opinon, Ares is a much harder target. For one thing, it has real military forces, not just fancy security and black ops guys. And a lot of the military forces are based out of the easy reach of the UCAS. Second, Japanese people have demonstrated a great willingness to make significant changes based on decrees from their rulers as to how things will be. See the WW2 surrender. This isn't so true of US culture.
I'd expect the trick would be to co-op them as opposed to trying to do a takeover. You'd have to meld chunks of the senior leadership into the government, which has been done before. Ares would remain as a company, but it would be a potent political player as a part of the country, much like a combination of General Dynamics, Boeing, Blackwater, KBR and GE would be today, not an outsider. I'd only see this as likely if everyone involved planned to do a forcible unification of NA.
Posted by: laughingowl Sep 6 2007, 04:24 AM
well technically you cant break c...
Your arent 'moving' any faster...
you are just travellig farther...
'impact' is till the exact same.
If are 1kg and have a velocity of 1 meter per second... your have a a joule of energy...
If a force 200 bloodspirit-zilla uses movement power on you...
you will travels 1,200 meters per turn (200*6 (seconds per turn)) ... howver you will impart 1 joule on impact (somehow)...
Posted by: Fortune Sep 6 2007, 04:30 AM
Can you calculate the exact speed (or time) it would take using the combination of rocket plus Spirit? Can you do it to the same exacting standards that are necessary for successful Space travel? What exact numbers do you use (in-game calculations) to reflect the exact nature of the Spirit's Power?
Posted by: laughingowl Sep 6 2007, 04:36 AM
KZT:
And how many of the 'Ares' forces would still identify themselves as 'Americas'. Ares has always been played as a very 'American' company.
Sure it would happen in a day..
But if Japan shows the CC has no teeth, they become no concern...
Japan has also shown the mega-corps are evil / evil and senior member do horrendous acts for their own good and cant be trusted...
UCAS black-ops begin a subtle 'make Ares look bad campaign' and start scopying for 'nationalist' within the company. (and blackmail able people)...
Hell if you REALLY want to go evil.
5-6 well timed ritual mind controls....
Ares senior management DOES does something horricically bad....
The rank and file is stunned...
UCAS has turn coats and military people ready to strike...
The 'key' defenses were dropped (see opening ritual magic)....
In very short time senior leaders of Ares would be dead (ritual magic, direct assult, possibly own troops at going 'crazy')... (and most of the senior management IS US based)....
The world would think Ares had gone mad... (or atleat power hungury)...
UCAS wouldnt need to worry about the remaining 'Ares' military since they offer to 'protect' the remainin Ares forces (if they cooperate) from the rest of the world, who is outraged and the henous actions....
If the remaining Ares forces 'challange' UCAS, UCAS goes to the CC, petitions for an Omega order against Ares... Every single corporation (and goverment) begins to seizes piecesof the puzzle...
If Japan pulled the above off, there will be people that are conviced they could pull this off...
If the CC allows one... there will be people that belive the CC will allow the other...
The world has no loyality to the CC, rather it is through fear / repercussions they have power.... if the world does fear the repuressions of the CC, they cease to exist...
Tyrants can NOT allow somebody to challange their authority (publicaly) or they are on the road to being overthrown....
Posted by: laughingowl Sep 6 2007, 04:40 AM
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| Can you calculate the exact speed (or time) it would take using the combination of rocket plus Spirit? Can you do it to the same exacting standards that are necessary for successful Space travel? What exact numbers do you use (in-game calculations) to reflect the exact nature of the Spirit's Power? |
That the wonders of Movement power Fortune you dont have to...
You calculate the trip exactly per normal...
Somehow though you get there in time / force....
Movement power does effect control / drive / pilot rolls are all... (don't ask me why best I can say It's Magic...)
Even if this wasnt the case, Movement power would be VERY easy to calculate since it is a fixed mulitiplier....
It is MUCH easier to calculate then say normal 'thrust' since the more fuel you burn, the more you accelerate (since you now have less mass)....
Posted by: Fortune Sep 6 2007, 04:47 AM
So you do the trip as normal, but Z-O will not be there. It is in orbit, so you would need to actually do the calculations. And Force is a somewhat arbitrary term 'in game', that it would make it somewhat difficult to measure its exact nature.
Posted by: kzt Sep 6 2007, 04:52 AM
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| So you do the trip as normal, but Z-O will not be there. It is in orbit, so you would need to actually do the calculations. And Force is a somewhat arbitrary term 'in game', that it would make it somewhat difficult to measure its exact nature. |
I suspect that you could program a computer to do the course plotting. Or get someone to actually fly the damn thing into them. Even better if he has a good reason to want to kill them all. He just doesn't need to know why or from whom the help is coming from.
Posted by: Fortune Sep 6 2007, 04:56 AM
| QUOTE (kzt) |
| I suspect that you could program a computer to do the course plotting. Or get someone to actually fly the damn thing into them. |
I'm sure you could. My problem is the exact calculations needed in regards to the arbitrary thing we refer to as Force. I understand that out-of-game, Force can be quantified to the nth degree, but in-game, magical knowledge is not such an exact science.
Posted by: Adarael Sep 6 2007, 05:00 AM
Am I hallucinating that there was this rule wherein sustained spells & effects are reduced in effectiveness when they enter a mana warp? Or is that only 3rd Edition?
Posted by: Fortune Sep 6 2007, 05:04 AM
| QUOTE (Adarael) |
| Am I hallucinating that there was this rule wherein sustained spells & effects are reduced in effectiveness when they enter a mana warp? Or is that only 3rd Edition? |
Nope. But laughingowl's supposed premise is that Spirit Powers are not affected.
Posted by: Fortune Sep 6 2007, 05:18 AM
| QUOTE (Street Magic pg. 118) |
| Spirits, being creatures of living mana, are perhaps even more vulnerable to background count. A spirit’s Force is reduced in the same manner as a character’s Magic, thus affecting the spirit’s attribute and spirit powers as well. |
| QUOTE (Sr4 pg. 289) |
| Movement Type: P • Action: Complex • Range: LOS • Duration: Sustained The critter may increase or decrease the subject’s movement rate within the terrain it controls. Multiply or divide the target’s movement rate by the critter’s Magic. |
Posted by: laughingowl Sep 6 2007, 06:20 AM
Fortune:
Movement power has no effect on reaching your goal...
If you 'drive' (or pilot) the boat to intercept another car...
If you are under a movement power, you dont 'drive' to where it would have been (if you were driving normal speeds) you drive to IT...
Ramming a spacestation would be the exact same as ramming a vehicle, both pilots (if any) make a drive test.....!
As to your later quotes:
The 'Range LOS' in in applicable... if you read my quote.. while spirit needs LOS to implement the power (first LOS is pretty far) second of all... SUSTAINING THE POWER says you do not need LOS... thus the spirit sits at the launch facility.
Your quote from page 118 is one I missed. Though not 100% daming (though more likely to accept intent... though I do got an email in on this)...
That WOULD effect the spirit (and his powers) if the spirit was IN the mana warp....
Though no mention of spirit powers is mentioned for 'effects' moving into the warp. (with an otherwise very exhaustive list).
If the spirit is in a background count zero and the target moves to a background count 1 does the power change?
I totally agree that if the SPIRIT is in a mana warp its force (and thus its powers) are reduced in effect...
However it is still not clear that if the spirit is in baseline zero background count, and the target (while under the effect) moves into a warp, what happens...
Also in the mentioned space travel one, I belive even Frank was posting with spirits augementing space travels...
Posted by: Fortune Sep 6 2007, 06:31 AM
| QUOTE (laughingowl) |
| Movement power has no effect on reaching your goal... If you 'drive' (or pilot) the boat to intercept another car... If you are under a movement power, you dont 'drive' to where it would have been (if you were driving normal speeds) you drive to IT... |
Can you give me a quote that specifically backs that up?
Posted by: Fortune Sep 6 2007, 06:34 AM
| QUOTE (laughingowl) |
| Also in the mentioned space travel one, I belive even Frank was posting with spirits augementing space travels... |
I believe Frank was posting about Bloodzilla aiding Space travel. There's a difference. A Spirit would be fine, as long as it was over Force 12.
Posted by: Fortune Sep 6 2007, 06:36 AM
| QUOTE (laughingowl) |
| That WOULD effect the spirit (and his powers) if the spirit was IN the mana warp.... Though no mention of spirit powers is mentioned for 'effects' moving into the warp. (with an otherwise very exhaustive list). If the spirit is in a background count zero and the target moves to a background count 1 does the power change? |
The next paragraph goes on to state ...
| QUOTE |
| Pre-existing wards, mana barriers, active foci, sustained spells, and quickened/anchored spells are similiarly affected. Reduce their Force by the absolute value of the background count. |
Posted by: laughingowl Sep 6 2007, 08:13 AM
and it is that NEXT paragraph that is problematic..
| QUOTE |
| Pre-existing wards, mana barriers, active foci, sustained spells, and quickened/anchored spells are similiarly affected. Reduce their Force by the absolute value of the background count. |
Is a very specific lists... which does NOT include powers... as mentioned about 1 billion times, this could be an oversite... (and likely is) .. however, the bother to give a VERY exhaustive list of things that are effected if pre-existing that move into an area of background count.. and powers is not on this list..
If the paragraph was:
pre-existing effects are reduced by the absolute value of the background count.
then we are good...
however, if they go on with a rather exhaustive list... one must make the assumption that this list defines the items that are effected. (and I certianly agree even if not.. a large number of GMs would house rule it)... however... RAW... powers are not effected by moving into a ward area... (spirits are effected)
The first paragraph and the second are mutally exclusive...
Othewise magic become almost impossible since you get double jeopardy..
If mages (and spirits) in a background count get hit with a magix/force reduction.. they can cast weaker spells...
Then if as they cast the spell the SPELL get weaker... background count just got doubled....
Thus the first paragraph is dealing with 'entities' in a background count... (their magic is reduced, their drain is raised...) but once cast (under those effects) their spells are normal....
The second paragraph is intended to provide rules, for when caster (mage or spirit) is safely someplace else.... and their target moves to a background count area...
The second paragraph is what applies to our 'launch facility' spirit, since the spirit is on earth, lounging int he swap in the Florda keys.... watching shuttles take off... 'the shuttles' however are leaving the gaisphere thus would be moving into an area of background count..
The sustain 'physical mask' spell would clearly degrade....
HOWEVER (and it is most likely an oversite) the rules as written make no mention of sutained / existing powers that move into an area of background count degrade...
Making it possilible that only the location of the 'spirit' mattters...
Likewise.. nothing in the rules specify (and again an oversite I think) that a creature with a 'power' on it, cant pass through a ward.
Again all listing for wards that I can find say:
| QUOTE |
| but they act as a solid barrier to spells, manifesting entities, spirits, and active foci. |
Again powers are not any of those (spells are the closest, yet they are not spells, since counterspelling doenst help, nor can they be dispelled)
If Synners (I belive) own words.. wards are effectively aspected background count... yet wards dont effect powers... then background counts do effect powers...
(Unerstand I fully support your game, may be differnt, and and very open to 'developers intentions' are otherwise... though RAW.... this is so)
Posted by: Big D Sep 6 2007, 02:30 PM
Best way is to test things out on the ground using the same strength of spirit (or just use a high-force ally). That should yield you the multiplier rather quickly, even if you assume that there is no IC measurement for Force.
And yes, it does matter. See again, the China test, where they lobbed the interceptor in front of an oncoming satellite at just the right time. Any sooner or later, and the interceptor would not have been at that altitude, since it was going straight up and did not have orbital velocity (gravity even at high orbit is almost as strong as on the ground, *unless* you're throwing yourself around the planet fast enough to negate it). Even for a GEO target, I think you still have to work it out based on the location of the launch platform and use a slightly curved trajectory. The higher the force of spirit, the straighter it would get.
Posted by: laughingowl Sep 6 2007, 10:30 PM
No it does NOT matter...
movement power has been stated to have no effect on the 'pilot/drive/eetc' roll...
I can not use 'movement power' on my arrow and suddenly you cant dodge it...
I do not use movement power on myself to catch up to somebody and then suddenly find myself a mile infront of them...
movement power has been stated multupe times to have NO effect save for far you can move... it does NOT effect any test to go where you want to..
Movement power it NOT a mystic Jato bottle shove up your backside....
Movement power doesnt make a gymnast automatically kill themsleves when they try to vault on the bars, by exploding into the ceiling... (Heck in truth it is even debtable if it woudl allow them to 'jump' higher, since technically an athletics roll to jump isnt 'movement' (as per how far you can move)...
It does not cause the indor 50 yard dasher to sprint past the finish line and face plant into the wall...
A troll throwing a spear at extreme range....
yes the spear some travels the distance in normal time/force ... but the troll doesnt gain any bonus... (or penalty) to hit his target...
The same goes for If you use movement power on a rock... and I shot it from a catapult...
Sure the rock makes the trip in 1-2 second maybe instead of 10-15... but I still aim exactly like normal...
Sure 'real word' physics says NO WAY... gravity has less time to 'pull down' the rock... (depending on range) earth rotates less... wind has less time to effect it... (hell drag though should play ALOT more... (if not burn it up like a meteorite) but none of this happens, THE ONLY EFFECT is it can move movement * force as opposed to movement....
Posted by: Big D Sep 6 2007, 11:36 PM
Sigh. No, it doesn't make "aiming" any harder, or any rolls different. But depending on what orbit your target is at, you'll have to aim at different parts of the sky depending on what your velocity is. That's fluff, not crunch.
Now, because of Train A/Train B problems, if you miss your launch window, it still doesn't matter, because you don't get a roll to "hit" the target in the first place--the missile goes to the wrong patch of sky.
An ABM or similar system basically has (in some cases) two rolls... one to determine if the pocket protector guys (or the mainframe) can work the math right--in 2070, this is almost a gimme, except that Movement can spoil your math if you assume that you don't ICly know what the multiplier is. The second, of course, is whatever terminal homing you have, and by RAW doesn't care if Movement is up even if you're breaking c.
Posted by: FrankTrollman Sep 7 2007, 02:26 AM
Spirit Powers are indeed separately reduced by being in a background count from spirits. So while a spirit can slap a movement on a space ship and then not die when the space ship goes into space - the movement multiplier will still e reduced by 12. To get any meaningful virtual speed out of the movement power through space you'd need a spirit of Force 14+. And while that's nothing special for Bloodzilla (even Peter Taylor's proposed errataed Bloodzilla), that's a serious pile of conjuring for anyone else (even a Great Dragon).
That being said, you would have to take Movement into account for your calculations for Space Travel. This is because you're doing Rocketry rather than a more conventional movement style. During a period that you are aided by Movement, you use up fuel at a normal rate. Movement doesn't make a runner any hungrier or a car empty its gas tank. And so for a trip where you are propelling yourself by throwing reaction mass out the back, going twice as far along your proposed course doesn't make you get there in half the time.
Your base acceleration gets better and better over time as the mass you're dragging along goes down. With your travel time reduced as it is by the Movement power, you never get to the later times when your acceleration was going to be better.
So the net result is that yes, in 3 days of Movemented space flight you'll be in a very different place (and have a lot more fuel left) than you would have been had you spent 6 days without getting Movement to make you go twice as far.
---
This crucial distinction in time doesn't make any difference at all to people pilotting container ships across the Atlantic or truckers hauling goods across the Yakut. But it's a really important distinction for specifically rocket ships.
-Frank
Posted by: Draconis Sep 7 2007, 02:50 AM
And once again the movement thread rears it's ugly head like an alien suddenly bursting from someone's chest. 
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