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Posted by: Zhan Shi Sep 5 2007, 12:56 AM

Being someone who is not particularly interested in the tech side of things, I thought it was "OK". The section that most grabbed my attention was the section on cybermancy. As far as writing and artwork, I would give it a 10.

Posted by: Dashifen Sep 5 2007, 01:59 AM

One word: wonderfun!

Posted by: jklst14 Sep 5 2007, 02:05 AM

Agreed with Dashifen. I think it was a fantastic supplement. It made cyberlimbs awesome, for the first time in SR history. It updated old favorites from Man & Machine as well as providing lots of fun new toys. Until this book, I really felt SR was slanted towards mages but after Augmentation, the balance feels just right to me.

Posted by: Buster Sep 5 2007, 03:07 AM

I think Augmentation is the best SR4 book to date. As a mage, I would say that Street Magic is more useful to me of course, but Augmentation is very well crafted. The fluff is interesting and informative and the crunch is detailed and useful. They fixed some limitations to cyberlimbs, which is cool. The new positive and negative qualities were really needed and fit the game perfectly. The nanotech and genetech sections were surprisingly large sections with lots of useful stuff. The artwork is great too and adds a lot to the feel of the book. I can't really say anything negative about the book...I'm not sure why the penis and breast implants each got their own sections instead of being rolled into the cosmetic mods section, but I'm told that Americans don't understand those things.

Posted by: Zhan Shi Sep 5 2007, 03:42 AM

On the whole, we Americans have an "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mentality. Many of us, including myself and (I think) Doc Funk, do not see how adding rules for cybergenetalia enhances the game; it's "wasted space" that could have been more fruitfully used. But SR also has an international following, so "When in Rome..." and all that.

Posted by: nathanross Sep 5 2007, 05:28 AM

AUGMENTATIONS COVER IS THE WORST SHADOWRUN COVER EVER

Now that I have that out of my system, I must say, Man & Machine was a great supplement, Augmentation is better. I seriously enjoyed reading through it. It put together so much fluff that had been scattered about. Now cyber, bio, nano, genetech and more are all in one ~200p book.

My only gripe is that after looking over the book and all the gear, Im kind of worried how some of the things are going to stack and how balance will be.

Sure, hackers have the ware now to not only out match TM's further, but also spank hacker-adepts. I have yet to total how many dice you can get in conjunction with Logic or Intuition tests, but it cant be small. Sure, most of it is limited to knowledge skills, but common! I actually wish for more flavorful, if not downright pointless ware like the cyberpenis, instead of trying to make every......single.......tiny......... ounce ........ of ware augment the character in some way. There are way too DP modifying wares on the market now. And now there aren't even trade offs for most of the stuff aside from the essence cost.

Posted by: Synner667 Sep 5 2007, 06:57 AM

Posted by: Fortune Sep 5 2007, 07:00 AM

Posted by: kzt Sep 5 2007, 07:02 AM

It's pretty good, well worth the money. It reads well, much better than I was expecting. It's not just a list of "stuff". There is a lot of cool stuff, a fair amount of stuff I still think should just provide a fiated effect that only gives a +2 or something lame like that and some stuff that is quite insane. But insane in a cool way.

I still would pay an extra $5-10 it they would just roll the stuff from the BBB into Augmentation so you wouldn't keep having to look junk up in the BBB, the errata and in the FAQ to see how the add-on in augmentation works.

Posted by: knasser Sep 5 2007, 07:43 AM

Probably the best supplement yet, and I have a very high regard for the 4th edition so far (and have bought every book for it so far).

The cover is pig ugly and that is quite bluntly the worst thing I can say for it. It is stuffed with flavour and useful things. It expands the power level upwards to compete with magic, which was necessary, but does so in a balanced way with, based on my limited use so far, well-pitched availabilities, essence costs and prices. The fluff is superbly written and really draws you in. Artwork is sparse but good. And it has Kid Stealth legs.

To the anti-penis crowd, I can only ask again why they complain about the cyber-genitalia but not implanted horns, silky skin, chloroplast skin, etc., if, as they say, their complaint is that it is wasted space that does not have a game application. I visited the US about eight years ago and found the people there friendly, forthright and hugely certain of what was right and wrong. When it came to sexuality, everyone was militant. Those who had sex outside a relationship were proud of it, those who had sex only within a relationship were proud of it. Gays were proud of it. Straights were either proud of their straightness or (oddly) proud of having gay friends to the point that I even met people who pretended to be lesbian or bisexual! Everybody was making a statement about their way of life.

The original SR London sourcebook put it well, I think, when it said that the difference between European and American sex was primarily oral... americans talked more about it - before, during and after. Europeans tend to just get on with it.

I hope this doesn't cause offense, but it is my genuine impression of having spent time in both European and American cultures.

Posted by: Casper Sep 5 2007, 08:01 AM

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Sep 5 2007, 08:08 AM

Think what you like. They already said the reason they included it was, and I paraphrase, "because we couldn't think of a reason not to" with "(without looking like prudish Americans)" written in between the lines. Of course a few days later, the same guy was complaining about how they didn't have enough room in the book to fit everything they would have liked in, too. Which is exactly why it's so pathetic it's in there at all. Not because of the actual content, but because that space could have been used for something useful.

Posted by: Synner Sep 5 2007, 08:22 AM

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Sep 5 2007, 08:36 AM

Oh, right, right. I keep forgetting how important and constantly requested it was to hear players snicker "heh heh, I got a cybercock!" versus, you know, all the other myriad and actual game-related things that could have been put into the book instead. Nevermind that cybersex organs could have easily been written in as a single sentence under cosmetic surgery, too. They fully deserved -- nay, demanded -- multiple paragraphs all their own.

Hopefully the next company that gets the license will correct that philosophy in future books.

Posted by: The Jopp Sep 5 2007, 08:49 AM

My only gripe about Augmentation is that even though cyberlimbs have become BETTER they are far from what their description implies.

1: Availability
For trolls and orcs with exceptional physical attributes (compared to the common man) the availability becomes killing.

2: Cost
Very popular among the poor it says, even though the base price runs between two to four months middle lifestyles

3: metahuman unfriendly
Not automatically tailored to average metahuman attributes but must customize even the most basic limb for high cost.

End result: Too hich cost for non runners (and for some reason I see non runners as the companies big customer base). Too high availability even for those with real SIN’s.

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Sep 5 2007, 09:03 AM

I agree, the cost is high compared to how commonplace they're supposed to be amongst "the poor," but they are still cheaper than a cloned replacement. Not by much, again another hit against it, but they are.

I agree about the other points though. Particularly Availability (the way they're handling it is all kinds of fucked up) and the lack of baseline stats for metahumans. That said, the actual rules for the limbs themselves are scores above previous rules for cyberlimbs were. They're not just storage compartments for cool gadgets. They're that and more.

I just wish redlining wasn't as brutal as it's listed as. Some discouragement for using it was needed, sure, but it's something I couldn't justify myself using in almost any situation.

Posted by: Blade Sep 5 2007, 09:28 AM

The stuff is good:
- lot of new stuff, most of them available and useful without being too powerful.
- Most of the augs allow the player to customize his character with a special ability or "power" rather than just max out one skill/attribute or another.
- No "must-have" (implants that some kind of characters need to buy to be good at their job) except for the encephalon for hackers (but I guess it helps non-adept hackers to get on par with magically augmented hacking skills)
- Mages and adepts aren't necessarily the best in every field anymore, and mundanes can have their own funky tricks.
- Fluff in the stuff! Good to remind players and GM how people in 2070 can look like and to add flavor to PCs and NPCs. Mentioning it is good, but adding it to the equipement list is making sure that the players will notice it and maybe even buy it.
- new horizons, but still cyberpunkish (not too many transhuman/post-cyberpunk tech)

The fluff is... mixed:
- Interesting and well done scientific explanations. They give a ground to those who absolutely need them while not going too far to avoid being ridiculous in some cases.
- Some interesting info about corporations, and how these augmentation techs are used.
- But it lacks atmosphere. The fluff is still too far from street-level. The shadowtalks are mostly flavorless. Most of the time it's just '>I agree, >I disagree' with the occasional archetypal '>I like tech (cyberguy), >Tech is baaad (shaman), >You're stupid, >No you are'. It's good to have ingame content and shadowtalks in rulebooks, but they lack the charm of the 1st edition sammy crazy about this new gun, or commenting the advertising blurb. Oh, except for that anecdote about the BattlePez. It took me a few seconds to figure it out, but it made me laugh out loud.

About the penile implant, if you're so much sorry about "losing" a few lines of text, just replace it with :

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Sep 5 2007, 09:33 AM

They were complaining about a lack of space for more interesting content, too. Despite their apparent need to feel like they have to defend their addition of cocks and tits as if they were the President of the United States defending some dunderheaded decision.

Posted by: Fortune Sep 5 2007, 09:34 AM

Posted by: Mr. Croup Sep 5 2007, 09:37 AM

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Sep 5 2007, 09:38 AM

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Sep 5 2007, 09:42 AM

Posted by: Mr. Croup Sep 5 2007, 10:00 AM

No need, in your opinion.

I'm still trying to work out why you believe the idea to be juvenile. If you really don't like the idea, don't use it, but i'm certainly against the idea that only "juvenile brats" would use these implants in their game for a "cheap laugh". Why can't an adult of sound mind use them as what they are - roleplaying aids - without being chalked up as infant-minded?

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Sep 5 2007, 10:06 AM

Posted by: Synner Sep 5 2007, 10:07 AM

Posted by: Grinder Sep 5 2007, 10:16 AM

Posted by: The Jopp Sep 5 2007, 10:25 AM

Posted by: The Jopp Sep 5 2007, 10:35 AM

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Sep 5 2007, 11:18 AM

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Sep 5 2007, 11:18 AM

Posted by: The Jopp Sep 5 2007, 11:33 AM

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Sep 5 2007, 11:40 AM

Posted by: fumble Sep 5 2007, 11:51 AM

Well, I found Augmentation was an amazing piece of work - kudos to all involved.

The cover is hideous, but the book itself is of a quality I haven't seen in a long time (well perhaps not so long after all... Say since SR4 ).

What I particularly liked is the way this book is actually a sourcebook on how the 2070 deals with cyber and bio augmentation, but also with rules in it.
I found the fluff excellent, and the "in-characterness" of it - notably by the way the book is structured (Section introduction, fluff by technical expert, rules) truly excellent.

Street Magic was good, but CGL have set themselves a new standard of excellence with Augmentation - I am waiting Arsenal with trepidation.

And yes, I actually see the inclusion of cybercocks and cubertits as a mark of maturity rather than puerility - as in most cases, these things are in the eye of the beholder anyway.

Cheers,
Fumble.

Posted by: The Jopp Sep 5 2007, 11:55 AM

Posted by: Mr. Croup Sep 5 2007, 12:24 PM

Augmentation certainly is written from the standpoint of a runner reading an article on Jackpoint but runners are also people - with everything that statement implies.

So runners may want to keep up on the latest cyber-fashion or whatever else that pops their cork. It doesn't mean that augmentation is purely for runner characters, a lot of 'ware is legal for Joe Blue to get installed and with the right permits they can also get more restricted items installed. This does not mean, therefore, that Augmentation is written specifically with runners in mind - just from their perspective, afterall that is the main focus of SR.

Dr. Funkenstein, i realise that i'm risking this turning into a full scale flame-match, but i must ask you what you deem to be real content? As at the moment i'm unsure as to exactly what your problem is with the cyber-genitalia part of the book, other than, from what i can see, that it seems to upset you a great deal because you believe it is there as some childish joke. Now i understand that there are somethings that may have been better off taking it's place but without specific examples it makes it very hard to see what you're getting at. Similarly each example you could provide would have to be weighed by each reader and they make up their own mind as to if that would have been more suitable than the handful of paragraphs on cyber-genitals.

Also, whilst you have not necessarily been the loudest voice nor the only one, you have been the one that has made his point in an increasingly angry manner for which i see no reason, other than you seem to want to convince the developers of augmentation that they are, in some way, wrong in their decision to produce Augmentation the way they did. In fact your comments have neared becoming downright libelous in that regard in your implications that the developers have given in to some juvenile behaviour in the production of Augmentation. It is understandable that people will become somewhat defensive when dealt with in such a high handed manner. The very reason i asked you to simmer down earlier.

To sum up, the writers of SR are never going to please everyone with what they produce - it's just impossible to do. If 51 people liked the book and 49 didn't, i see it as the developers having done their job. If you are one of the unhappy people that didn't like what was printed that's a shame and no fault of yours, but you do yourself no good by yelling at the top of your lungs about it and berating the developers on an online forum when they, as they should, are going to stand by their decision - it's not like they can do anything about it now the book is published. If you really feel badly about and believe others to feel the same way, i suggest you send a letter to catalyst game studios politely explaining your displeasure with the new supplement and explain why you found it so displeasing and explain to them how you feel this situation should be resolved. Otherwise no amount of foot stamping and shouting on the internet is going to do anyone any good other than to make them look a fool.

Posted by: Buster Sep 5 2007, 12:30 PM

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Sep 5 2007, 01:37 PM

Posted by: Blade Sep 5 2007, 01:47 PM

Actually there was a reference to the Smurfs in the SSG in a shadowtalk about the possibility to change one's skin color.
Which means that the Smurfs are still popular enough to be known by Shadowrunners.

I liked this reference and I'd have been disappointed to see a comment about cyborgs instead.

On a serious note, I understand what you mean, but if you start thinking this way they could have removed a big part of the fluff (introductions, some shadowtalks), pictures, the short stories, implants that 'nobody is gonna use anyway'.
Heck, they should compute the information value of each word of the book and remove low information words and replace them with informative text.

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Sep 5 2007, 01:58 PM

Fluff often adds to the setting, as the world and major players are all part of the setting (and often targets, directly or indirectly, of runs). Shadowtalk... not so much anymore. It hasn't really been interesting or useful since 2nd Edition except for the exceptionally rare occasion. I'd honestly rather see shadowtalk get snipped in place of [smurfs] and [snorks]. At least that inspires some kind of a reaction beyond a big giant <yawn>.

But detailed information on [smurfs] and [snorks] in lieu of information that does pertain to the actual game? And actively choosing it instead of said content? That's just ludicrous. Doubly so when the reason for doing so is even more insane.

That said, I feel the same way about spending so much space and time on mildly different "fluff" implants, like the aforementioned Jackhammer. But at least with those, there are solid rules associated with them and they can be actively useful to a runner (such as drilling a hole through a wall or breaking into a sewage plant; see it all the time in crime flicks, or even a former construction worker turned runner). [Smurfs] and [snorks]? Added to just to be added, and doing so without even putting anything interesting or even remotely useful about them in (other than taking up Capacity for some bizarro reason). I mean, even if the character was a former [animator], what do those rules add to the character? Nada.

But, hey, at least the people responsible can hold their chests out proudly and proclaim that they're not sutffy [people from Madeupstania] and stand by their decision. That's apparently the only real reason so much space was wasted on it.

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Sep 5 2007, 03:48 PM

I'm gonna get a cybersmurf! Tee-hee!

I'm sorry. That was juvenile.

It seems like it's just a question of: When does too much fluff become useless crap? And that's all it is, just because they give it an essence value and a price, it's still obviously fluff, vaguely disguised as crunch. Too much fluff (and what is too much depends very much on how the topic of said fluff relates to the game) is obviously bad, but not enough fluff leaves a game with no setting. The writers/developers are constantly trying to walk this line, both within each book and for the total of all the books. Some people will naturally want more or less crunch/fluff. Overall, I think they're doing a good job.
The topic of cybersmurfs could've definitely been handled in a juvenile way in Augmentation, but I don't think that it was. (except by me, at the beginning of this post)
Overall, Augmentation looks like a great book. It fixed half of my biggest gripes with SR4 (still waiting for Unwired for the rest) And frankly, I don't care how ugly the covers are as long as the content maintains this level of quality.

Posted by: Dashifen Sep 5 2007, 03:58 PM

I'm surprised you all don't like the cover. I sort of do. I didn't like it on-screen, but on the hardcover prints at GenCon there was a lot more color depth (perhaps because of the glossy cover) than there was on-screen or on my PDF printout. Oh well.

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Sep 5 2007, 04:06 PM

Meh, I'm still making up my mind about the cover. My point was, whether the cover is fantastic or crap, it's pretty low on my list of priorities for a gaming book.

Posted by: Zhan Shi Sep 5 2007, 04:12 PM

Was it the best cover I've seen? No. But it was not the worst, either. That fine distinction would go to System Failure.

Posted by: Dashifen Sep 5 2007, 05:17 PM

Wacky. I loved the SF cover. You and I, Zhan Shi, definitely seem to have different eyes in our beholders

Posted by: Zhan Shi Sep 5 2007, 05:23 PM

Yeah, different strokes, etc. But Moon-Hawk is correct; the cover is low priority compared with what is inside. I would very much prefer a craptastic cover with great text than vice versa.

Posted by: knasser Sep 5 2007, 05:45 PM

Oh wow! Funkenstein is off again on his cyber-penises! For anyone who missed it, the last discussion on this was http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=18460.

Now I'm going to address this comment directly at Funkenstein and specifically exclude Rotbart who seems to be sincere in his dislike of non-game applicable rules. Funkenstein - you keep complaining that it was wasted space because it could have been devoted to something with an actual game application. I don't think anyone here believes that is your issue with the cyber-genitalia. The equal amount of space devoted to each of fibreoptic hair, nano-tattoos, silky skin, chloroplast skin, horn implants, and others has never set you off on a multi-page rant. Shaped dermal implants alone take up more space than that given to breast implants and they have zero game effect. Nor have you complained that all these other non-game applicable elements will lead to "gay jokes and fart gags" or are "pathetic" or "juvenille" or any of the other things you have said in reference to the sexually themed material.

If you want to say that you, for whatever personal reasons, don't like this material in your game, then I think everyone here will shrug and say "don't include it, and happy gaming." But to use a fake argument about wasted space as a proxy way to deny the material to others because of your own personal beliefs is dishonest. Shadowrun would not be Shadowrun if it did not have a rich and fleshed out setting. And sex is a pretty big feature of any human culture or social or personal life. For most of us, the inclusion of this is not a big issue, but there's certainly no call to have a go at the developers or to look down on people who do use this in their game or even just enjoy the fluffing.

What's particularly offensive in your attitude is the repeated strawmen you set up. You'll note that everyone has just been discussing the cyber-genitalia in neutral terms. It's you that has kept going on about "tits" and "cocks" in the mock voice of your perceived opponent. It's you who says that the inclusion of this material will "open the door to rules for taking a shit." That doesn't seem a real risk to any of us. And it's you who told me "Fancy yourself some kind of modern, sophisticated individual all you want." Well, yes, quite frankly, I do consider myself fairly modern and sophisticated. What I resent is the implication ("Fancy yourself") that it's some sort of mask so I can privately go "tee-hee - they printed the word penis" because you don't believe that anyone else's non-issue with the things can be genuine.

Don't like it, don't include it. But don't make up arguments as to why it shouldn't be in the book where other people can use it.

Dicks. Some are big, some are small, some are circumcised and some of them post on online forums. They're a fact of life and thus perfectly reasonably included in any book on life in 2070 at the cost of 12 lines on a half page. Now quit complaining.

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Sep 5 2007, 05:53 PM

Posted by: eidolon Sep 5 2007, 07:43 PM

Knock off the personal attacks, and baiting. Thanks.

Posted by: Zhan Shi Sep 5 2007, 08:30 PM

Whoa. I hope this dosn't go the way of "Moleskin".

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Sep 5 2007, 08:30 PM

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Sep 5 2007, 08:41 PM

...getting the distinct feeling that the Moderator Maglock is closing in...

...I for one would really like to continue discussing Augmented in general.

Posted by: Zhan Shi Sep 5 2007, 09:01 PM

Well....as I said at the beginning, the cybermancy portion was what really intrigued me. I liked seeing a more in depth approach to how it is done, what magics are involved, etc. Although like many SR explanations, they raise as many questions as they answer. Something of a letdown: being a fan of the original Cybertechnology book, I was hoping for an update on Hatchetman, but I was pleased that he was mentioned.

Posted by: knasser Sep 5 2007, 09:04 PM

Right. I'm getting told off by PM now for making personal attacks. I have warned the moderators before that I have a low tolerance for having my freedom of expression restricted. Anyone who knew my background would understand just how angry censorship makes me. And I think those who have been here a long time are familiar with my posts enough to know that I'm one of the politer people around here.

I think... I have had enough. It has been interesting here, but I'll wish you all the best (even Dr. Funkenstein) and say my farewells. Happy gaming all.

-Khadim Nasser.

Posted by: Zhan Shi Sep 5 2007, 09:27 PM

<ahem>

uh....bon voyage, I guess.

Posted by: Penta Sep 5 2007, 09:40 PM

Now...can we please quit focusing on small parts of cyberanatomy and get back to the goddamn book?

Both sides in that argument sound stupid at this point.

On that note: Now that we've mentioned cosmetic surgery and cosmetic cyber...

What about their medical cousins? What are medications like in 2070? What kinda vaccines do kids get? How beatable is AIDS, or cancer, or diabetes?

We've never once heard those really mentioned.

Posted by: Zhan Shi Sep 5 2007, 09:46 PM

Nor have I. Me, I just assume that meds are still primarily in capsule form. As for those diseases, since I can't recall them being cured in SR canon, I would think they're still around, albeit easier to diagnose and treat.

Posted by: Jaid Sep 5 2007, 09:49 PM

Posted by: Cain Sep 5 2007, 09:54 PM

You know, I'm going to break with tradition and agree with the good Dr. It's not so much that there's cyber-naughty-bits in Augmentation, it's not so much that they've got tons of space wasted on them that could have been used elsewhere. My view is that the sexual bits have been handled badly, with all the tact and taste of Beavis and Butthead.

As for the rest of the book, all I've got to say is this: Once again, they've escalated things, so the game will rapidly be unplayable unless you've got the new books to keep up.

Posted by: Dashifen Sep 5 2007, 09:55 PM

What do you mean by escalated things, Cain? If someone doesn't have Augmentation, why would they have a problem playing the game?

Posted by: eidolon Sep 5 2007, 09:57 PM

Well, I agree that the rules / gear bloat is rapidly becoming the same as it ever was, but I've been saying that since people started trying to say that SR4 was going to be more "streamlined" ...because at the time there was only one book for it.

I don't know that I agree with unplayable, though. I haven't read Aug in depth yet, do you have any specific examples or just a better explanation of what you mean? Are you talking about sheer power level, or just the abundance of "stuff"?

Posted by: Cain Sep 5 2007, 10:01 PM

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Sep 5 2007, 10:04 PM

You know, when it was first released I looked at Augmentation with a very critical eye, almost positive that the "power bloat" was going to be there. You know, where stuff in Augmentation were absolutely required in order to be competitive.

I was pleasantly surprised by how that wasn't the case. It seems like it at times, and there's things in there that are odd and which can easily be twisted, but overall they only expand your arsenal, they don't replace it. Augmentation literally gives most characters new stuff to play with, as opposed to rendering everything in the main book moot (with the exception of cyberlimbs which totally needed to be updated).

Sure, there are some really choice items in there (Radar Sense, Attention Coprocessors, Nanohives, etc.) but, as I said, those are mostly just new gimmicks or universal improvements rather than "omfg, my Street Sam is useless without a Radar Sense!"

So, yeah, I disagree about the power bloat. Rules bloat is unavoidable in rules-heavy books (it's the entire point of them, in fact). Overall, Augmentation is one of the best releases the game's had in a long time.

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Sep 5 2007, 10:15 PM

Sorry, Im' just amused at the irony of this.

paraphrase:
Cain
"Weird I agree with Doc"

Doc
"I disagree with Cain".



Sorry you guys just make me laugh.

I personally don't think it's really much a of a bloat,although I do most certainloyl see Cain's point. I've only read over Augmentatino, not read it in deep depth. Skipped the nonotech section for the most part. But I've got games with people that have that stuff so it becomes required reading for me. However this isn't D&D where they're going to be puting out 2 Class augmetations books for each class as well as numerous books that add more spells, gear, etc. There's one for each type of character focus, and that's it. So it might be husky, but it's not bloat. My opinion.

Posted by: Synner Sep 5 2007, 10:17 PM

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Sep 5 2007, 10:18 PM

Posted by: Cain Sep 5 2007, 10:20 PM

Don't have the book right on hand, but aren't they compatible? That, plus the Intuition-linked skill-boosting nanoware, means the Perception whore is now a reality.

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Sep 5 2007, 10:25 PM

Posted by: Eleazar Sep 5 2007, 10:27 PM

I think augmentation is a solid book. I haven't had the time to read all of the fluff yet, but the gear is great, with some caveats.

I don't care much for the genitalia part, mostly because it will see no use in any of my games and I assume the games of many other players. I don't see myself as the type to have players going through sexual fantasies or exploring the sexual depravity of the cyberpunk genre. That doesn't mean a whore would never be in any game I play or GM in, or that there will never be women that have been raped or involved in a bunraku sex parlor. It just means there won't be any sexual experience involved with the players or GM actively involved, in character or out of character for that matter, during the gaming session. Roleplaying is not a sexual outlet for anyone at my gaming table. Therefore, the inclusion of sexual augmentations is wholly unnecessary and useless for my group. The inclusion of said material seems to be appealing only to a niche market.

Another thing I didn't like was the symbionts are not as effective as I would like them to be. Orthoskin or Bone Density is always going to be the better choice due to the drawback of all symbionts. They cost nearly the same but you get more benefit from not going with the carapace symbiont. What the heck is up with the stalwart endosont. A +1 dice pool modifier, but look at the drawback. Not only do you get the critical miss drawback you get another one with a threshold of 3, that will likely get you killed. I mean, it's like there was some conspiracy of the developers to make symbionts completely not worth the opportunity costs and risks. Which is sad, because Stargate is so awesome. Sorry, just had to say that. I tried not to but it came out.

Everything else so far has been great. I especially like the severe wounds optional rules. Whoever wrote those deserves a pat on the back.

Posted by: eidolon Sep 5 2007, 10:33 PM

Posted by: Synner Sep 5 2007, 10:35 PM

Posted by: Synner Sep 5 2007, 10:39 PM

Posted by: Penta Sep 5 2007, 10:46 PM

I can't say, for all their newness, that I ever see much of anybody wanting a worm...slug....thing sliding around their insides that potentially has a mind of its own.

One body, ONE mind, thank you very much!

Posted by: Draconis Sep 5 2007, 10:51 PM

Posted by: Draconis Sep 5 2007, 10:54 PM

Posted by: Zhan Shi Sep 5 2007, 11:11 PM

I agree with Draconis. The more splats, the merrier. For myself, I'm very much anticipating Runner's Companion and Mr. Johnson's Companion, moreso than Unwired or Arsenal. Though, of course, I will eagerly buy those when they become available.

Posted by: Eleazar Sep 6 2007, 12:08 AM

Posted by: Cain Sep 6 2007, 12:12 AM

There forums are, at best, a reflection of the truly dedicated SR fans. Of everyone I know in real life, I'm the only one who loves Shadowrun enough to post here. Given that there's a 50/50 split among diehard fans, that doesn't bode well for its value among the casual fan, let alone the target market.

Posted by: Whipstitch Sep 6 2007, 12:24 AM

My reaction ranged from utter, abject apathy to mild enthusiasm for the more "peurile" stuff put into the SR4 books since release. I'm happy when given options that already work within the confines of the core rules and don't require a single person across the globe to change their playstyle for the worse. Will this stuff ever come up in my groups? Probably not, but then, I can honestly say the same thing about endosonts, exploding biokittens, drop bears, Nitro and Dunkelzahn. I'd have to double check my pdf to make sure, but I think the ginormous section describing how Gecko Hands worked took up more space than the Penile & Breast implants combined. I can honestly say I have never suspected for even a second that this stuff could be truly shunting aside "more important" SR4 developments.

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Sep 6 2007, 01:08 AM

...blast, and here I was hoping they'd have machine gun juggies.

....but seriously, I have no issue with the "fluff ware" and I find some of it (like Clean Metabolism, Touch Sensitivity, and Body Sculpting) to actually be rather helpful at times. Other enhancements like Fibre Optic hair and Nano Tatoos are purely colour, but hey it's a game so why not have a little fun?

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Sep 6 2007, 01:27 AM

Posted by: Zhan Shi Sep 6 2007, 01:28 AM

For those of you who might wish to explore the possibilities of, ah, personal enhancement, I would suggest "Freak Legion: A Player's Guide To Fomori" and "Clanbook: Tzimsce", both by White Wolf. Sick stuff, and much to blame for why I left that game.

Posted by: FrankTrollman Sep 6 2007, 01:36 AM

I'm pleasantly surprised by how well the Cybermancy was received. I genuinely thought my write-up was going to be a huge up hill battle with people chanting "Burn the Munchkin!" and such.

The outcry against cyberpenises also surprised me. Though in retrospect I guess it should not have. Still, I think it was handled with much more class than the "Mr. Stud Implant" ever was.

-Frank

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Sep 6 2007, 01:39 AM

Posted by: Zhan Shi Sep 6 2007, 01:43 AM

Here's a thought....a smurf containing doses of nanotech cutters. Ouch!

But seriously, it's not a big issue for me. I just don't think it was neccessary. I was happily playing SR for 10 years without giving it a second thought.

Hey, Frank, since you're here....can I expect Hatchetman to show up in the future?

Posted by: Zhan Shi Sep 6 2007, 01:51 AM

Re-reading Augmentation....just wanted to say I also liked the new stuff on DNA masking. Much better than the rules in SOTA.

Posted by: PlatonicPimp Sep 6 2007, 02:31 AM

Posted by: Fortune Sep 6 2007, 02:35 AM

Posted by: Jaid Sep 6 2007, 03:17 AM

off the top of my head, i can think of at least 2 character concepts that i've seen on these boards that revolve around a the character being one gender, but appearing to be a different gender. that's one use.

with the breasts, they have size alteration, for example. useful for disguse purposes, i would think, to be able to go from flat-chested to normal sized to absurdly large at a moment's notice... throw in something as simple as a reversible coat and a hat that can be stuffed into a pocket and you could vanish into a crowd in an instant. would you have known the implant could do that if they didn't say it did?

also, if you can't see the advantage to being able to turn off the pain receptors in certain highly sensitive areas of your body when, for example, you've just been kicked there really hard (by someone wearing steel-toe boots!), then clearly no one has ever hit you in a sensitive enough area of your body =P

in another example, going to one of the games that's being recounted on these boards, one of the characters is probably feeling somewhat emasculated right about now... in character, i think it would be reasonable for him to want to get a replacement, so that he doesn't seem like such a freak in a certain kind of social encounter.

so yes, i can absolutely see uses for them. does it need bonuses or penalties to certain kinds of actions in the text? nope. does it have them? nope. but because it does have them [edit] (meaning the implants) [/edit], the players of those characters have options they may not have otherwise considered. i don't see that as a bad thing at all.

and certainly, i don't see the inclusion of two paragraphs of text as being worth derailing a thread this horribly. honestly, you took a thread about "hey, what is augmentation like", and turned it into a completely pointless waste of time. you've focused the entire thread on two little paragraphs of text, which i don't believe anywhere near 50% of the people even really care about one way or another anyways (so as far as i'm concerned, your 5/45/50 is pulled out of your own nether orifice at least as much as the original 50/50 split proposed).

you know what? chances are, i am never going to use that crazy cyber cat thing. in fact, i will probably not use bio drones at all in my games. there's a lot more text about them then there is about those two implants, or even the entire cosmetic modifications sections combined plus those two implants. you have 2 paragraphs that you see as wasted, well that's several pages i see as wasted (on me, at least). but when someone says "hey, what do you think about augmentation", i don't ignore the 99% of the book that i think is awesome to go on a rant about how i don't like those pages. and i'd appreciate it if you would just state your opinion, and then leave it at that. it doesn't take much. just say "i don't like this and this" and then when someone else says "well i think it's fine" *ignore them*. you don't have to rant about it. you don't have to derail the thread. you don't have to go on and on about it (and contrary to what you are saying, you *are* going on and on about it), and i would honestly say right now that if we had a poll of people who are for, against, or just want to stop hearing about the matter, i would be very surprised if there are not far more people who just don't want to hear about it then anything else.

so really, i appreciate that you have your opinion. i have my own opinion about it (and in all honesty, i'm not likely to use it either, and really don't much care. it's only 2 paragraphs). but i don't want to read your opinion over and over and over and over and over (see how boring repetition gets? this is a forum for discussion, not a brainwashing program, thank you), i'm perfectly fine just hearing your opinion *once*.

Posted by: eidolon Sep 6 2007, 03:20 AM

Posted by: WearzManySkins Sep 6 2007, 03:27 AM

Ok I like Augmentation, does it have "perceived" flaws, to me not really. I have found the "whole" flavor of Augmentation to be excellant.

Each chapter was laid out, in an entirely readable format.

In my 20+ years of playing SR, I have had only one player character use a cyberarm, I have never created any character with a cyberlimb.

Does that mean my players are any different than any one else's, no. They made choices that they wanted to make, yes they were aware of cyberlimbs, but most of the time it did not fit the "concept" that those players had for their characters.

Will I berate the developers/writers/editors for "wasting" page space on something that I have not used, or will more than likely not use, No.

I understand that the game concepts vary from each GM and player group. So the inclusion of the cyberlimbs gives the entirety of SR gamers to make better choices of character concept using the widest range of choices.

The developers/writers/editors were able to "craft" the Augmentation book by using many different writers and was able to reach a consensus on what the final product would or would not contain, based upon constraints, some of which I know about but most I do not.

I could rant about the "wasted" space of the index and table of contents, yes but no I will not.

Merely because you see no use in an item(s) does not mean they should not be there. The the developers/writers/editors were "crafting" the Augmentation book for a wider range of GM's and players, so they could find the tools/items needed to create their concepts in characters both player character and non player character.

Excellent Job on Augmentation, I hope the next publication is as good, and hopefully better.

WMS

Posted by: Fortune Sep 6 2007, 03:30 AM

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Sep 6 2007, 03:35 AM

I believe the pros and cons about cyber genitalia has been gone over way past it's usefulness. Let's move on please. There's already a thread specifically about this subject, so if you really want to continue going on that topic, feel free to dig it back up. Otherwise, please move on to other topics in the book.

Posted by: Fortune Sep 6 2007, 03:39 AM

Posted by: eidolon Sep 6 2007, 03:40 AM

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Sep 6 2007, 03:40 AM

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Sep 6 2007, 03:40 AM

hehehe.... wait... when did you start restraining your self?

Posted by: eidolon Sep 6 2007, 03:41 AM

Dammit, Fortune! You're the reason we can't have anything nice!

Posted by: WearzManySkins Sep 6 2007, 04:18 AM

Posted by: Zhan Shi Sep 6 2007, 04:20 AM

Oh, my. I seem to have a "Inspiring Lively Discussion" negative quality. First Moleskin, now this. But I have enjoyed reading everyone's thoughts on the subject(s) at hand.

Another "Hurrah" to the Augmentation writers: the inclusion of cyberpsychosis. It dosn't matter whether it was taken as a nod to Cyberpunk; it really fits, and I'm glad it was included. I was thinking of adapting this rule as a start down the path of the Twisted. After all, having wierd powers can alienate one from the rest of metahumanity as surely as cyber could. That whole "I'm above you puny mortals" thing.

Posted by: Zhan Shi Sep 6 2007, 04:22 AM

Are you by any chance the inspiration for Man-of-Many-Skins?

Posted by: Jaid Sep 6 2007, 04:23 AM

Posted by: Zhan Shi Sep 6 2007, 04:25 AM

Bloody hell. Missed that. I'll have to break out the old Cybertechnology.

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Sep 6 2007, 04:26 AM

Posted by: Fortune Sep 6 2007, 04:26 AM

Posted by: Zhan Shi Sep 6 2007, 04:38 AM

Well, I'm no Master Shake. But I do my best.

Posted by: Fortune Sep 6 2007, 04:43 AM

Posted by: Adarael Sep 6 2007, 04:57 AM

Re: cyberpsychosis -- it wasn't around, as such, in prior editions. In prior editions, characters would suffer from a disconnection from their fellow humans, as evidenced in rules by negatives to charisma-based skill rolls (excepting intimidation) because their fellow humans recognized these people were totally out there and mechanical. Earlier editions didn't actually have the rules for going PSYCHO as such. Which, I might add, is a beautiful addition.

I forget if it was in Home of the Brave or Solo of Fortune 2 (for CP2020), but there's a beautiful description of a cyberpsycho who loses his mind in the 2nd South Am war, slowly rationalizing more and more 'use of force', and then starts rationalizing killing teammates because they lowered his personal chances of success in killing the opposition.

Posted by: Zhan Shi Sep 6 2007, 04:59 AM

BTW, Fisty, saw the stuff you did a while back on lightbearers in SR. Loved it.

Posted by: WearzManySkins Sep 6 2007, 05:15 AM

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Sep 6 2007, 06:13 AM

Posted by: Fortune Sep 6 2007, 06:23 AM

Posted by: Cain Sep 6 2007, 06:24 AM

Oh, yeah, cybermancy. Another pet peeve of mine. Not saying that the sections aren't well-done, but I can't see why detailed rules were included in a book aimed at players. Cyberzombies are supposed to be a GM-only toy, and once you put it into a player gbook, you're going to end up with players wanting to run cyberzombies and cyborgs. IMO, they really belong in their own book, something like Threats or Threats 2.

(And yes, I had the exact same problem with M&M.)

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Sep 6 2007, 06:26 AM

Pretty sure Cyborgs actually are aimed at players as well as GMs.

Posted by: Zhan Shi Sep 6 2007, 06:47 AM

I'm not sure there is such a thing as a book which is NOT aimed at SR players. Power creep can be a problem, but it can be solved by upping the power of the opposition. CZs also have pretty hefty drawbacks; just be sure to enforce those rules about the special drugs, cancer, IMS, etc. And a CZ who somehow broke free would also have a massive "Hunted" negative quality (I know it does not officially exist yet...I assume it will be in Runners Companion). Not to mention the fact that many spirits and magic types regard CZs as walking abominations (well, I guess they ARE walking abominations), and would love nothing better then the chance to put one out of it's misery.

Posted by: Adarael Sep 6 2007, 07:08 AM

If a player of mine wanted to pan their PC for 4-6 sessions of glory as a CZ (realistically all a heavy one could keep up before expiring in a heap) I'd let 'em.
They prolly had some good reasons for doing it, since my players are never after that kinda power just to explode heads.

Posted by: FrankTrollman Sep 6 2007, 08:27 AM

Posted by: Grinder Sep 6 2007, 08:44 AM

Posted by: It trolls! Sep 6 2007, 10:55 AM

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Sep 6 2007, 11:01 AM

Posted by: ThreeGee Sep 6 2007, 11:07 AM

Posted by: Synner Sep 6 2007, 12:14 PM

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Sep 6 2007, 12:29 PM

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Sep 6 2007, 01:48 PM

Posted by: ThreeGee Sep 6 2007, 02:08 PM

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Sep 6 2007, 02:46 PM

..I did above?

Posted by: FrankTrollman Sep 6 2007, 02:53 PM

Peter is in fact wrong that a Background doesn't reduce the Magic or characters in it (I'elobbied for a rule stating that Dual Natured creatures are unreduced by Backgrounds of -6 to 6, but that's a whole separate issue). However, a Cyberzombie is not killed by a Rating 1 Mana Ebb. A cyberzombie isn't killed by a rating 12 Mana Void.

Posted by: ThreeGee Sep 6 2007, 02:55 PM

Ah sorry missed it my eyes are not what they were.

But the section on Astral Hazing in Augmention states that the CZ sits within his own Background count of 4 surely that trumps the effect of any ambient count?

Posted by: ThreeGee Sep 6 2007, 02:57 PM

What Frank said...

Posted by: Synner Sep 6 2007, 03:08 PM

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Sep 6 2007, 03:10 PM

Ah, indeed... my bad.

Oddly enough, if there will be an Errata/FAQ that states that always the larger rating counts, that'll change...

Posted by: Synner Sep 6 2007, 03:23 PM

Posted by: Demonseed Elite Sep 6 2007, 03:26 PM

Peter's question is mine also. I never got the impression that a ghoul will drop over dead if it's Magic attribute is effectively reduced to 0. In the case of critters, the reduction of Magic attribute caused by background count doesn't even ensure they lose critter powers, it's left to GM discretion:

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Sep 6 2007, 03:30 PM

Posted by: Synner Sep 6 2007, 03:41 PM

Thank you for the pointer, Rotbart.

That line will be corrected in the Augmentation errata - please add "permanently" between "ever" and "reduced".

It slipped by me in editing and I had not realised how Frank was interpreting the intended interaction between background count and Magic.

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Sep 6 2007, 05:26 PM

Well, that would make the rule obsolete: There are no non-rulechange ways to permanently lose magic.

Posted by: Synner Sep 6 2007, 05:36 PM

Reductions to your Magic attribute due to ambient background count are temporary by nature (because both your presence in the background count/domain/area of a Mana Static spell and the duration of many such domains/spells are themselves temporary). Once you leave a domain your Magic attribute reverts to normal (which is why l said it was a reduction of your effective Magic attribute as opposed to an actual reduction).

If a forensic magician were to walk into a violent crime scene with a residual background count of 1, he would suffer a temporary reduction of his Magic by 1. If he were to leave the crime scene his Magic would return to its normal rating. Also if he were to stand there until the background count faded then Magic would also return to normal eventually.

Comparatively, losing Magic to an Essence Drain power, addiction or implantation for instance would be a permanent loss.

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Sep 6 2007, 05:55 PM

Indeed. That why the 'please add "permanently" between "ever" and "reduced".' change will make the sentence obsolete:

CZ can't lose Essence due to Implantation, permanent Essence Drain requires the victim still to have Essence, and given the drug coctail CZ require to even stay 'alive' I don't think loosing Essence due to Addiction is really an option to fall back to.

Posted by: Demonseed Elite Sep 6 2007, 05:59 PM

Yeah, but it would stand if something else came up down the line that caused permanent Magic attribute loss.

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Sep 6 2007, 06:14 PM

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Sep 6 2007, 06:20 PM

Posted by: Synner Sep 6 2007, 06:31 PM

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Sep 6 2007, 06:42 PM

So spirits aren't supposed to actually be disrupted if they go into a high enough Background Count, just temporarily reduced in power? Dual-natured beings aren't supposed to suffer unbelievable torment and pain in addition to suffering damage every Combat Turn they're in a warp/void?

How exactly is a cyberzombie all that different thematically from either of those? The only reason it's alive is because of the magic holding them together. If that magic is dispersed, whether permanently or temporarily, how is he being held together?

Posted by: Adarael Sep 6 2007, 07:49 PM

On a basic level, allowing background count to kill a CZ when he enters it is a bad plan because nearly everywhere in the world has a background count. Including where the CZ is created. That would mean the most effective way to avoid death by CZ is to 'be most anywhere in the world where there are groups of people'.

The other problem is that any joker with an astral static spell or equivalent can dice a CZ no problem.

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Sep 6 2007, 07:55 PM

I agree, as it stands it's a bad idea. But thematically I don't see why it shouldn't or wouldn't. It doesn't make much sense.

Now if their otherwise useless Magic Attribute were higher to represent their "Force" as it were, and their Negative Essence score acting as Astral Armor against such effects, and having their background count aura counteract other background counts, you could have your cake and eat it, too. It would take a mana warp or void to really have a shot of "disrupting" them all without handwaving things away.

Posted by: Adarael Sep 6 2007, 08:02 PM

Sounds like a reasonable fix, with the possible exception of allowing them a higher dicepool than they should have for any rolls opposed by magic. I think there are a couple of those somewhere.

On the whole, though, yes. I like that idea.

Posted by: Synner Sep 6 2007, 08:02 PM

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Sep 6 2007, 09:12 PM

Posted by: FrankTrollman Sep 6 2007, 10:54 PM

Posted by: laughingowl Sep 6 2007, 11:22 PM

Frank you still have a few tidbits, that are enough for SR3 players to assume the intent:

Posted by: Synner Sep 6 2007, 11:37 PM

Posted by: FrankTrollman Sep 6 2007, 11:37 PM

Heh. You and I both play that way of course, but Natural Weapon is a Physical Power, technically you aren't supposed to be able to attack astral opponents with it.

Dual Nature is supposed to allow you to use your natural weapons against aastral foes, but it doesn't actually say that it can do that. Which is, obviously, a flaw in the written rules for Dual Nature. Basically it needs about one or two extra paragraphs describing Dual Natured critters and how they interact with physical and astral stuff. That's just plain missing from the current rules.

-Frank

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Sep 7 2007, 12:26 AM

Already been stated, but please bring this back to focusing on the review of Augmentation. Not shooting down the discussion as I'm certainly interested in it as well. Move it to another thread.

Posted by: FrankTrollman Sep 7 2007, 12:41 AM

In order to take this in a more Augmentation-themed direction:

Posted by: Zhan Shi Sep 7 2007, 03:00 AM

<sniffle><sob> Goodbye, Hatchetman.

In regards to my comment about power creep....the GM can simply rule that CZs are not available as player characters. I believe, however, that it may be doable, provided the disadvantages are rigidly enforced, and the CZ PC is given foes to match his abilities. Some players and gms don't like the high powered, world shaking campaigns (think Harlequin's Back), prefering to keep things more street level. Both styles have their merits and drawbacks. To each his own.

Posted by: Zhan Shi Sep 7 2007, 03:16 AM

Just looking over the section on Age Rejuvenation....I was thinking of using the Body (natural, not modified) attribute for the maximum times it can be used. Also, in previous editions, I seem to recall that cyber/bioware interfered with the effectiveness of gene treatments; is this still true?

Posted by: Cain Sep 7 2007, 03:17 AM

Posted by: Cthulhudreams Sep 7 2007, 03:22 AM

Doesn't the monthly surgeries and need for expert medical and psychological help on demand pretty much rule out CZs for players unless the GM gives them lots of money with any special ban hammer application?

Posted by: Zhan Shi Sep 7 2007, 03:24 AM

Can't really argue with that. I thoroughly enjoyed both Threats books. And in Cybermancy, those two anonymous posters seemed to think that cybermantic magic was creating a pressure cooker of bad karma, which would have extremely delitirious effects if it "overflowed". Sounds like a good "Threats 3" section to me.

I meant to type "Cybertechnology".

Posted by: Jaid Sep 7 2007, 03:25 AM

Posted by: Zhan Shi Sep 7 2007, 03:28 AM

It would be an extremely difficult existence, to say the least. But thems the breaks for people who want cyberzombies as pcs.

Posted by: Fortune Sep 7 2007, 03:44 AM

If you put a cyberzombie on something like a space station, would any accompanying mage then be able to use their magic (while in his radius) as if in a -4 BC instead of the normal -10 to -12?

Posted by: Draconis Sep 7 2007, 04:04 AM

Posted by: FrankTrollman Sep 7 2007, 04:21 AM

It does say that the Rating 4 background count takes effect regardless of what the ambient mana levels are. So yes, for the same reason that a cyberzombie doesn't die when he enters a bad mana region, a mage can stand next to a cyberzombie and use his magic in a merely crippled capacity on top of a gravity well.

Of course, that background count is like three meters across the long way and has a scary scary man standing in the middle of it, so it's difficult to imagine successfully using most magical operations in such a scenario. You can't conjure for instance, and the "Line of Sight" capabilities of your spells are virtually meaningless.

I could imagine pulling off some Health spell scenarios though, because they are touch range. You have the cyberzombie lie supine on top of the patient and then you have the magician lay down on top of that and reach around to cast a spell without having any part of their body or the spell extend into the vacuum which surrounds the CZ's tiny bubble.

Awkward? Difficult? Kind of weaksauce?

Yes, it is all of these things. But people other than Aztechnology and Ares can't do it at all and every time you're playing with different physics than your opponents that's something to base a competitive advantage off of. So you can be damn sure that at this very moment there is a research group on the Tlaloque Spindle trying to figure out something to do with seriously attenuated - but possible - magic in space to justify the hundreds of millions of nuyen it took to get them there.

-Frank

Posted by: Cthulhudreams Sep 7 2007, 04:32 AM

Posted by: Fortune Sep 7 2007, 04:36 AM

Thanks Frank. Lots of run potential there.

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Sep 7 2007, 03:31 PM

Posted by: FrankTrollman Sep 7 2007, 04:00 PM

And the Chemical Production Facility, that's another 200 grand down the tubes. You'll want a Medical Facility as well. Also a Cloning Facility if the cancer starts cropping up. Those all cost about the same.

Sure, you can do it. But by the time you've done it, you've become a corporation. It would be much cheaper to simply purchase these materials and services from Universal Omnitech. Cheaper in at least.

-Frank

Posted by: ThreeGee Sep 7 2007, 04:22 PM

All the details for maintaining a CZ are now written up in the rules.

You must add 2000Ò° a month for medical expenses, own or have access to a chemical facility and not turn your IMS off.

Posted by: Buster Sep 7 2007, 05:25 PM

Yeah Frank, don't you know the new cyberzombie rules? Oh wait...

To maintain a cyberzombie, do you need 2000 nuyen per month AND a chemical facility or just a chemical facility?

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Sep 7 2007, 05:42 PM

Having a cyberzombie on a runner team has more to do with the costs involved for being a cyberzombie than anything else. I mean, who the hell would invest in the millions upon millions of nuyen it takes to turn someone into a cyberzombie if they only have a max of 250,000 nuyen of implants in 'em at the start of the game?

If you're playing in a campaign where money is no issue, either during character creation or after, then sure it's a reasonable request to make of the GM. But under normal circumstances you aren't going to have a cyberzombie on a team because it's just not feasible from a storytelling or believability point of view.

Posted by: FrankTrollman Sep 7 2007, 06:21 PM

Posted by: ThreeGee Sep 7 2007, 06:24 PM

Posted by: BookWyrm Sep 7 2007, 06:26 PM

Mu-hahahahaaaa! Just picked the book up today!

Posted by: Jaid Sep 7 2007, 06:42 PM

Posted by: ThreeGee Sep 7 2007, 07:02 PM

Posted by: Buster Sep 7 2007, 07:43 PM

Posted by: WearzManySkins Sep 7 2007, 07:58 PM

Waits for the Admin Hammer to fall on Buster for that last attempt at humor.

"Let Sleeping Dogs Lie please."

Posted by: deek Sep 7 2007, 08:15 PM

I thought it was funny.

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Sep 7 2007, 08:45 PM

Posted by: Buster Sep 7 2007, 08:46 PM

Posted by: Dashifen Sep 7 2007, 09:29 PM

For what it's worth, I chuckled a bit, too.

Posted by: BookWyrm Sep 8 2007, 01:44 AM

I *just* got the book today, & I've been really busy at work. I'm going to savor this by reading it through.

Posted by: WearzManySkins Sep 8 2007, 02:20 AM

Posted by: Fortune Sep 8 2007, 02:23 AM

Real Aussies don't drink Fosters!

Posted by: Zhan Shi Sep 8 2007, 03:20 AM

Interesting. If one of the prerequisites for the Cybermancy metamagic technique is Corruption, does that not mean that the ritual team leader, at least, must be a Toxic? This puts that conversation in Cybertechnology in a whole new light, both in terms of the participants, and in whomever posted it to Shadowland.

Posted by: FrankTrollman Sep 8 2007, 06:16 AM

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Sep 8 2007, 06:25 AM

That's not a take I like on the HeavenHerds. I don't think of them as any sort of nice folks certainly. They should be the types to use blood magic for their ends as the Therans did, although not as an end in and onf it's self as the Azzie's do. But I don't think they should be toxics. Hadn't really thought about that before.

Posted by: nathanross Sep 8 2007, 06:33 AM

Yeah, I really liked the cybermancy fluff, and especially the take that there are different ways to achieve the result. Forcing Corruption into the mix kinda screws the fluff. Though I guess even to the Heaven Herds, the magic was revolting and only used if absolutely necessary.

Posted by: WearzManySkins Sep 8 2007, 07:00 AM

Posted by: Synner Sep 8 2007, 08:08 AM

Those having a problem with the Heaven Herds using Corruption, I would remind that if their technique is as old as its supposed to be they need not obey the paradigm views of contemporary magic use (in the same manner that the use of Blood Magic by IEs does not make all of them Twisted - though a pretty good case could be made in for some individuals) - though it would explain why even the Herds believe it to be an extreme scenarios only solution.

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Sep 8 2007, 08:44 AM

I don't have a problem at all with them using Corruption. I have a problem with them having to use Corruption, if that is indeed the case. But that's just me.

Posted by: Zhan Shi Sep 8 2007, 02:43 PM

I remember now. From FASA's Theran Empire book. There was talk of the Heavenherds creating magical super-soldiers through the extensive use of blood charms. Normaly, an ED character could have only so many of these before suffering "depatternization", which I'm guessing is the ED equivalent of zero essence. But the Heavenherds found a way around this limitation, creating what what was, in effect, an SR cyberzombie.

Posted by: FrankTrollman Sep 8 2007, 03:08 PM

Posted by: MaxHunter Sep 8 2007, 04:58 PM

Firstly, I have to say that my overall impression of the book is definitely a positive one. I didn't find any hideously broken part and I consider the addition of several options with no game breaking parts a plus to the game.
Then, more specifically...

... I really liked many of the new qualities that come up in the book. Not only cyberpsychosis -which I wanted for a character I had in mind- but many of the others in the CZ section too. I have opened that option for starting characters as well, as I find phobias, for instance, much more interesting and playable than allergies and easier to come by.

I don't remember now, but the 5-point negative quality "mysteriously noisy cyberware" or so is really cool.

More comments later on, stay tuned.

Cheers,

Max

Ps: I do believe the attention co processor a little too cheap, as I think of muscle toner and augmentation, but I won't even houserule it differently. The expensive life of a shadowrunner has it breaks.

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Sep 8 2007, 07:31 PM

Posted by: Synner Sep 8 2007, 09:05 PM

Posted by: nathanross Sep 9 2007, 04:30 AM

Posted by: Synner Sep 9 2007, 09:33 AM

You are correct. I was comparing to the mana void writeup and overlooked those lines under Mana Warps. I apologize to Dr. Funk with regards to the missing those lines describing the phenomenon as relates to Warps.

However, what I was referring to was the fact that in previous editions mere contact with Voids / fovae (in particular) resulted in psychological torment and mental distress (among other effects) that were in addition and separate from any physical or psychic damage wrought by the actual contact with the Void (see the old adventure Eyewitness and Aztlan). So far in SR4, torment and pain has been directly described as a result of astral contact with "roiling mana that flays their soul and drives them mad" in mana warps.

Note though that this effect is unrelated to the "reduction in magic" that we've been talking about here, and which was the point I was making: ie. reducing the Magic att does not kill, harm, or by itself cause "torment and pain."

The discussion may have since drifted, but I have been responding to the proposition (by Frank and others) that reducing a Magic Att will (by itself) kill the dual natured entity (cyberzombies included) in SR4. I apologize if that was unclear.

For the record I have stated multiple times that cyberzombies should not be immune to the other effects of Voids and Warps (put a cyberzombie in space and he most certainly will go pop on the astral)- it is the effects of low end background counts that they should be immune to.

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Sep 9 2007, 09:36 AM

As the rules are now, he always is in his personal, aspected domain and thus never subject to environmental mana conditions.

Posted by: Synner Sep 9 2007, 10:01 AM

That is correct. For now. I have also stated my opinion on how that should be handled when we address interactions between background counts of different magnitudes - something that is in the developer's hands for upcoming errata/FAQ.

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Sep 9 2007, 11:20 AM

Another odd relation to be considered for that Errata/FAQ - does an aspected mana warp cause damage to people aspected to it?

Posted by: Ophis Sep 9 2007, 11:42 AM

Or to put it another way, can a manawarp be aspected at all?

Posted by: Demonseed Elite Sep 9 2007, 03:05 PM

Posted by: FrankTrollman Sep 9 2007, 04:13 PM

Posted by: Synner Sep 9 2007, 04:50 PM

The Street Magic errata has been ready for quite some time, and per standard procedure it has simply been waiting for the next printing of Street Magic to be published. The cap on the Energy Drain power and its variants that we missed in the original text will be added in.

We are planning errata for Augmentation already, because we are close to selling out our first print run.

Amongst the latest set of FAQs, that I have recieved regarding Street Magic, one of the most common questions (aside from Wards and Ritual Magic) has been how background counts of different magnitudes interact when they are juxtaposed or overlap.

It has been our intention to address this in the next FAQ update for at least 6 months now (in fact, I offered the same answer I have here more than 6 months ago on Dumpshock).

If you have an issue with high-level background counts (5 and upward) overriding a cyberzombie's (un)natural domain, please feel free to mail me your points and they will be taken into consideration.

Posted by: toturi Sep 11 2007, 12:53 PM

I have a question on the biowarfare agents, specifically Bedlam.

Can the Antidote spell counter Bedlam? Or are "only" nanite O-cells and binder capable of fighting bedlam?