Printable Version of Topic
Click here to view this topic in its original format
Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Totaling a van with your pistol
Posted by: Veggiesama Sep 5 2007, 05:03 AM
My problem arose when my players parked right in front of a ganger hideout, turning their souped-up van into an armored bunker. They fired mounted weapons and launched spells out windows. The gangers were relatively skilled (some with 9 dice or so) and armed with light and heavy pistols.
To my surprise, after only a few shots directed at the immobile van, the gangers were shaving damage boxes off of it. After about 5-6 boxes, I decided not to obliterate the van (how uncool would it be on your first run to lose your awesome expensive van?), so I started trying to blast the players inside of the van. They were pretty much unable to even deal a single box against a player hiding in the van due to the generous armor-for-passengers rules, and the encounter eventually ended.
Anyway, I wanted to figure out what went wrong and what I could do about it to make similar battles a bit more fun and realistic. Blowing up cars with your pistol seemed mildly ridiculous, and I worried about what would happen when bigger guns were used. So I crunched some numbers...
---
Core: One player has a revolver (6P, -2 AP), 7 agility (w/cyberware), 6 pistol skill, a specialization in revolvers (+2) a smartlink (+2), and one Take Aim action (+1). That's 18 dice when attacking.
The player rolls to attack and gets 6 hits.
The Bulldog Step-Van (16 Body, 8 Armor) is stationary, so it gets no defense roll. So, that's a direct hit.
The modified damage value becomes 12P (6P + 6 hits), while the modified armor value becomes 6 (8 armor - 2 armor piercing). Because 12 > 6, the pistol easily passes the van's "hardened armor" immunity (technically not hardened armor, but it's the same rules-wise, correct?).
Step-Van rolls 16 Body + 6 Modified Armor dice for the damage resistance test and scores 7 hits. The damage is reduced to 5 boxes. That's nearly a third of its total boxes (16). After another three or four shots, the entire van is scrap-metal. That seems a little extreme.
Conclusion: Hardened armor's line between "I cannot be stopped!" and "OMFG I JUST GOT EXPLODERED" is extremely thin and doesn't scale well. I think a lot of people are already aware of this problem.
---
Alternative rule I've seen proposed: Rather than use hardened armor as a threshold for immunity, instead reduce the DV of the attack by the hardened armor's value.
Given the above example, the modified damage value of 12P would be reduced to 6P (12 - 6 modified armor = 6), which would again be reduced to 0P after the damage resistance test (which scored 7 hits). That seems a little more manageable, considering it's a pistol we're talking about.
But as soon as you load AP rounds into that pistol (now -6 AP), things go back to being weird. With a modified DV of 12, the modified armor would become 2 (8-6=2). The DV is reduced by 2, becoming 10 DV. By rolling 16 Body + 2 Armor, you would get an average of 6 hits, thus dealing 4 damage boxes to the vehicle.
It's still a little less than the first example, and it's still a best-case-scenario, and including the Defense Test would probably help alleviate some of that damage, but the fact remains that the above player would be able to demolish the van with 4 armor-piercing pistol rounds.
Conclusion: Seems (?) to work well until armor-piercing comes into the equation. Though armor-piercing is supposed to be really awesome against vehicles, drones, and the like, isn't this a little TOO awesome?
---
Barricades
One thing I like about the barricade rules is that all small projectiles have their DV changed to a static number (like 1 or 2), while things that should blow up vehicles (rockets, explosives, spells) are left alone or improved.
Perhaps handling vehicles in this way would alleviate some of my problems? Haven't worked out anything yet, but it's an idea.
---
Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but it seems really difficult to balance a vehicular encounter versus the group's regular amount of firepower.
Anyone have any rules clarifications/justifications, or house rules, or opinions on this topic?
anyone?
Posted by: Jhaiisiin Sep 5 2007, 05:09 AM
Myself, I'd house rule that. I'd state that unless a player is *trying* to hurt the vehicle (i.e. shooting at the engine area, aiming towards the gas tank, trying to blow out tires, etc) then their bullets will do little more than punch holes in the sides of the vehicle. If they were aiming to damage the vehicle, then I'd use your variant rule with having the armor directly remove from the overall damage of the weapon (after all, you're firing at a hard target). Once you get into AP rounds, it doesn't get silly. It makes sense. You're firing rounds intended to punch through and damage what's beyond, so I see no issue with that. Also, a person firing AP rounds into an engine compartment is destined to cause some serious problems with those components.
Posted by: Fortune Sep 5 2007, 05:15 AM
| QUOTE (Veggiesama) |
| Alternative rule I've seen proposed: Rather than use hardened armor as a threshold for immunity, instead reduce the DV of the attack by the hardened armor's value. Given the above example, the modified damage value of 12P would be reduced to 6P (12 - 6 modified armor = 6), which would again be reduced to 0P after the damage resistance test (which scored 7 hits). That seems a little more manageable, considering it's a pistol we're talking about. |
If you are counting the Armor as 'auto-hits', then it probably should not also be added into the Defensive roll.
Posted by: Veggiesama Sep 5 2007, 05:26 AM
| QUOTE (Jhaiisiin) |
| Once you get into AP rounds, it doesn't get silly. It makes sense. You're firing rounds intended to punch through and damage what's beyond, so I see no issue with that. Also, a person firing AP rounds into an engine compartment is destined to cause some serious problems with those components. |
You know, that's a good point. I was thinking of the destruction of vehicles as a "could-be-mistaken-for-a-warzone" type of destruction, rather than simply punching holes in critical parts and being rendered unfunctional (kind of like what happens to your brain after your skull takes one too many bullets). That just seemed more like a called-shot system, but in reality, that's pretty much what someone with high skill would be doing innately.
Another thing I got to mention. Normally, people think of -3 AP as equal to +1 DV on a weapon. If this system was used, suddenly -1 AP becomes equal to +1.3 DV. Huge power jump for AP against drones, spirits, vehicles, dragons, and the like.
edit:
| QUOTE ("Fortune") |
| If you are counting the Armor as 'auto-hits', then it probably should not also be added into the Defensive roll. |
Perhaps. Then -1 AP would be equal to +1 DV, I think.
Posted by: Fortune Sep 5 2007, 05:34 AM
| QUOTE (Veggiesama) |
| Perhaps. Then -1 AP would be equal to +1 DV, I think. |
Sure, but the Armor is already working 3 times as well as it would if you were to roll for it. Instead of 1 hit per 3 levels of Armor, you are getting one hit for every level of Armor (minus the weapon's AP).
Posted by: Veggiesama Sep 5 2007, 06:02 AM
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| Sure, but the Armor is already working 3 times as well as it would if you were to roll for it. Instead of 1 hit per 3 levels of Armor, you are getting one hit for every level of Armor (minus the weapon's AP). |
Seems logical and sounds good. I'm writing this variant into my game's house rules, assuming nobody else can come up with something better.
Posted by: laughingowl Sep 5 2007, 06:14 AM
First if they have 'parked' the van... then it by definition is a sitting duck..
Armor 6 is comparable to what some people wear as a daily wear...
A rather skilled person with a pistol (loading ADPS) trying to disable the vehicle... not nothing says that at full condition monitor the vehicle explodes / is reduced to dust /etc it is just 'dead' non-operational (it certainly could be fixed).
A parked vehicle, armor piercing rounds, somebody that is world renown skill (pistol 6 specilized revolvers is VERY VERY good) Agility 7 aint bad either... should be able to take out (as in keep from driving away) a vehicle in a few shots)...
First, if they parked the vehicle I would feel bad about shooting it up... true I probably would have the ganger mix between shooting it and 'the players' but I would give them the idea if they dont change things soon, their vehicle aint going any place... (which should be fun when the star shows up)...
Second:
The 'core' guy:
Call shot: I am at the guy's face when he peaks out to take a shot himself (call shot to hit vunerable spot / miss armor). Modifer (-dice equal to armor totally ignores armor).
So shooter loses between 6 (and maybe 11 dice (armor jacket) from targets total armor), target has -2 dice to dodge (passengers cant very well move in vehicles).
Could get bad for the people inside...
Or better yet the gangers as a whole...
Shot and disable vehicle... now run up and stand on top of vehicle and prepare shots for anybody stepping out...
Unless he got a moon roof, the runners are screwed...
Or what self-respecting ganger doesnt have a bottle of synthwhiskey.... find a old rage, and the old molokov cocktail works wonders....
Might cook off the vehicle...
Will give hard perception modifiers to the mage trying to cast through the wall of flame...
and is a classic response .....
In short your players (IMO) will being cheesy... and armor van is NOT a tank... and even a tank (with any kind of decent commander) wont just sit and let even small arms fire ping it all day...
First round have one or two gangers shoot the van... (maybe half its condition monitor) and the rest take shots at players...
If players chose to sit there and continue returning fire... gangers focus on van, disable it, then keep cover and pin the runners down..
Until:
1) They come out...
2) Star shows up... (easy for gangers to fade.... runners even if they take off running will be very visible (plus any evedince in their van)
Now the only house rule I have conidered (which wouldnt effect here) is hardened armor goes by the 'base' DC (modifed by AP if any) not modified.... so DV 6 pistol wont punch through hardened armor 7 (unless AP rounds) no matter how well you ROLL...
NOTE: Called shot rules still apply ... so you could chose to take the die penalty and 'bypass' the armor...
Also while not explictly stated .. I allow 'paritial' ignoring of armor. same way that to increase damage you can chose from +1-4DV to icnrease it by (with a corresponding -1 to 4 die)...
When by passing armor you can take a 0 to armor die penalty and ignore the same amount of armor...
(so if somebody has armor 12... you dont have to take a 12 die penalty and 'ignore' the armor, but you can say, I am at a 'weak' spot and take a '5 die' penalty and ignore 5 points of the armor.
I won't tell the players what the armor is...... though if they take 'more' die then the armor, Iwill roll approritate extra die and factor that in...
Posted by: Cain Sep 5 2007, 06:16 AM
| QUOTE |
| You know, that's a good point. I was thinking of the destruction of vehicles as a "could-be-mistaken-for-a-warzone" type of destruction, rather than simply punching holes in critical parts and being rendered unfunctional (kind of like what happens to your brain after your skull takes one too many bullets). That just seemed more like a called-shot system, but in reality, that's pretty much what someone with high skill would be doing innately. |
No, a called shot does worse things to vehicles.
Here's my classic example: Mr. Lucky needs to take out the Citymaster chasing their van, so he aims through the window at the driver. (Specifically aiming at a passenger, pg 162, not a called shot yet.) He's using an AVS (8P-f), and our modifiers are as follows: -2 recoil, -3 extreme range, -3 for being seriously Wounded, -3 for being in a moving vehicle, -6 for his target having total cover, -1 for his cover, and -2 for the light rain. To top this all off, he calls a shot to bypass the armor of both the vehicle and the driver. Assuming the driver was in heavy armor with helmet, that's an additional -12, and then we factor in the Citymaster's armor of 20. That's a total dice pool penalty of -52. It could be worse than that-- Mr Lucky might not have a pistols skill at all-- but it's largely irrelevant, since there's absolutely no way he's going to have a positive dice pool.
He now spends a point of Edge. 8 Edge = 2.66 successes, which rounds up to 3. The driver can't use his vehicle skill to dodge, since he was specifically targeted; and he requires a Perception test at -6 to even notice that he's been hit. Assuming that the driver has a body of 3 (his armor has been bypassed, so the AP penalty of the flechette round does not apply), he'll be taking an 11P wound, and will likely score 1 success-- not enough, he'll be taken out instantly. The vehicle will now need to make a crash test: it has a threshold of 3, using a Pilot of 3, and a handling penalty of -1. It fails, crashes, and likely kills everyone inside.
Posted by: Fortune Sep 5 2007, 06:20 AM
Do you cut-and-paste that, or do you type it up each and every time? 
Posted by: Veggiesama Sep 5 2007, 06:30 AM
Well, that's really a problem with the Longshot rules, rather than having anything specifically to do with Hardened Armor, unfortunately.
Posted by: laughingowl Sep 5 2007, 07:00 AM
Cain:
If window was open, then fine...
Though this is also where GM perogative comes in...
Simple answer..
If driver is enclosed in city master, and not 'interacting with you' he has total cover BEHIND the vehicle...
In this case no called shot can bypass the armor...
Also:
| QUOTE |
| The driver can't use his vehicle skill to dodge, since he was specifically targeted; and he requires a Perception test at -6 to even notice that he's been hit |
While he can't use his VEHICLE skill please read the rules:
[quote=162]Passengers attempting to defend an attack inside a vehicle suff er a –2 dodge dice pool modifier, since they are somewhat limited in movement.[quote]
Unless surpsied he can most certainly Dodge (though with a -2 die penalty) .. if YOU are using edge, he is also very likely to use edge to dodge...
And please tell me why he wont even notice being hit...
PERHAPS if you mean he is at -6 to determine who shot him, maybe, but do you regularly roll to see if people notice getting hit... (or even notice near misses)
Also Called shots (admitedly house rule but)... you have to have the dice to give up.... you can not take a -500 and shot somebody in the magazine locker of an old Battleship.. Now if you somehow have 501 dice... you MIGHT be able to richochete the bullet that much and get him....
Posted by: Cain Sep 5 2007, 09:06 AM
| QUOTE (Veggiesama) |
| Well, that's really a problem with the Longshot rules, rather than having anything specifically to do with Hardened Armor, unfortunately. |
It's a problem with the Hardened armor rules, because despite what Laughingowl says, you cal always bypass the armor with a good enough called shot. If you're constantly using GM fiat to block a by-the-book-example of a called shot, then you've got trouble.
Fortune: Cut n Paste, but with edits as needed.
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Sep 5 2007, 09:15 AM
Better house rules:
- Ignore the word "modified" in "modified DV" in the actual rule.
- Reiterate that that DV has to beat the modified Armor. Not meet it, but beat it.
- Have 'hardened' type armors lower the DV as well as providing dice on the Damage Resistance Test (effectively "free" hits) against standard ammunition.
- Adjust "normal weapons," for purposes with spirits, to not include elemental effects, including Lightning (electricity), Fire, and perhaps even Earth (rocksalt). Heavily processed elements, like the Metal in bullets, wouldn't count.
- Reintroduce anti-vehicular ammo to the game for heavier weapons (Longarms and Assault Rifles or larger) that treat normal 'hardened' armor like regular armor. No additional AP bonus beyond what APDS provides.
- State that 'hardened' armors don't stack with other 'hardened' or normal armors; you use the best of the bunch in any given situation.
Posted by: Fortune Sep 5 2007, 09:20 AM
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| Have 'hardened' type armors lower the DV as well as providing dice on the Damage Resistance Test (effectively "free" hits) against standard ammunition. |
That's harsh. You could (well actually would) get more hits in defense than the actual rating of the Armor itself.
Posted by: Veggiesama Sep 5 2007, 09:27 AM
| QUOTE (Cain) |
| It's a problem with the Hardened armor rules, because despite what Laughingowl says, you cal always bypass the armor with a good enough called shot. If you're constantly using GM fiat to block a by-the-book-example of a called shot, then you've got trouble. |
Took me a while to decipher what you are exactly saying, so I came up with two theories:
1) Given any kind of dice pool, you can still damage the guy with 500 armor. So you take all those penalties (-500, among other things) to ignore the armor and roll your Edge dice. Cool. Still nothing to do with Hardened Armor, and just a well-known broken use of Longshot.
2) By removing the armor with a called shot, you somehow remove the hardened effect as well. Not true. Directly written in the Called Shot description:
| QUOTE (p150) |
"If the attack hits, the target's armor is ignored for the damage resistance test; the target rolls only Body." |
The armor is only ignored for the damage resistance test, not for the previous steps that involve a comparison of DV to Armor for the purposes of determining Stun or Physical dmg, bypassed armor (i.e., above hardened armor value) or immune to damage (i.e., below), etc.
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Sep 5 2007, 09:28 AM
I was refering to the actual test to lower the amount of damage you suffer, not whether the shot hits you. Yes, it would take a really good shot to get past that vehicle's armor with a standard firearm with standard ammunition, but that's the point. Especially when coupled with the other parts in my suggestion (namely the anti-vehicular ammo).
A pistol shouldn't have much chance against a heavily armored vehicle. At least not for actually doing anything more than surface damage. Fully-automatic weapons would still have a pretty good shot at it, though, depending on how the attacker wants to apply the modifiers.
Posted by: hobgoblin Sep 5 2007, 10:09 AM
about long shot rule, iirc the edge is there to give the players a way to influence the flow of the story (do i smell something? someone must have left the door open to that rpg theory site)...
as in, when edge comes into play, all bets are off as the player have just declared the character outside of logic, physics or anything else that may get in the way og the story as he see it going...
Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Sep 5 2007, 11:15 AM
| QUOTE (Cain) |
| It's a problem with the Hardened armor rules, because despite what Laughingowl says, you cal always bypass the armor with a good enough called shot. |
Actually, that makes it a problem with the combination of the Longshot and Called Shot rules.
Hardened Armor is a critter power, and I don't see any critter in this example.
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Sep 5 2007, 11:26 AM
| QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig) | ||
Actually, that makes it a problem with the combination of the Longshot and Called Shot rules. Hardened Armor is a critter power, and I don't see any critter in this example. |
Hardened armor is just a term used to describe a certain subset of rules. Critters have a power called it by name, but vehicular armor works under much the same/similar rules. As will the doubtedly MilSpec type armor to be released in the near future.
Though I don't blame you for nitpicking on people using erroneous terms. Most of the time it annoys me, too. (Stupid "physads." I mean, seriously. How stupid is that? Even when there were Physical Adepts in the rules. Gah.)
Posted by: Buster Sep 5 2007, 01:52 PM
| QUOTE (Veggiesama) |
| The modified damage value becomes 12P (6P + 6 hits), while the modified armor value becomes 6 (8 armor - 2 armor piercing). Because 12 > 6, the pistol easily passes the van's "hardened armor" immunity (technically not hardened armor, but it's the same rules-wise, correct?). |
Well, there's yar problem! Hits from the attack roll don't count when calculating penetrating hardened armor. DV 6 is not greater than 8-2, therefore not one shot got through or damaged the van. If you're firing small arms at a hardened target, you might as well be throwing rocks at it. In 2070, even the windows have the same armor value as the rest of the car. The best you can do is do a called shot to the tires (same as head shot because they're plated over and very little rubber shows).
No need for houserules, the RAW covers it.
Posted by: DireRadiant Sep 5 2007, 01:56 PM
Why can't a couple of well aimed shots from a pistol disable a vehicle?
Taking all the DV out of a vehicle doesn't turn it into a pile of scrap. it just makes it not a functional vehicle.
Don't give both effects though, either you aim at the occupants and blow through barriers to hit them, which may or may not disable the vehicle at all, or they aim at the vehicle to disable it, but this doesn't reduce the barrier of protection for the occupants.
Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Sep 5 2007, 01:59 PM
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| Critters have a power called it by name, but vehicular armor works under much the same/similar rules. |
And where exactly is the specific problem with armor on vehicles, if it just follows rules similar to other armor?
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Sep 5 2007, 02:05 PM
...it doesn't follow the rules similar to other armor. It follows the rules similar to Hardened Armor, and does so badly as far as representing the point of having those rules in the first place (ie, to stop someone with a pistol from totaling an armored van).
Posted by: Buster Sep 5 2007, 02:06 PM
| QUOTE (DireRadiant) |
| Why can't a couple of well aimed shots from a pistol disable a vehicle? |
Posted by: hyzmarca Sep 5 2007, 02:38 PM
Use your Edge, Luke!
Posted by: kzt Sep 5 2007, 04:08 PM
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| A pistol shouldn't have much chance against a heavily armored vehicle. At least not for actually doing anything more than surface damage. Fully-automatic weapons would still have a pretty good shot at it, though, depending on how the attacker wants to apply the modifiers. |
I'd argue that you can hose down a steel wall all day with an SMG and get nowhere. Windows and windshields should be very different. Sustained fire against armored glass should eventually (and not a huge number of shots) penetrate. Which they will not in SR4.
Posted by: Buster Sep 5 2007, 04:35 PM
I think that would be correct for window technology (if there is such a specialty) by 2070. Even today, there are laminate windows that can take a full magazine spray from an assault rifle at point blank range and not fail (can't see through the window afterwards, but it doesn't collapse).
Posted by: Ryu Sep 5 2007, 05:52 PM
Not everything that does have an armor rating is armored. The Mercury Comet offers 6 points already. We sorely need rules for upgrading vehicles...
Posted by: kzt Sep 5 2007, 06:19 PM
| QUOTE (Buster) |
| I think that would be correct for window technology (if there is such a specialty) by 2070. Even today, there are laminate windows that can take a full magazine spray from an assault rifle at point blank range and not fail (can't see through the window afterwards, but it doesn't collapse). |
You'll notice how in the demos they spread the bullets out across the glass, they don't put the entire magazine into a 10 inch circle? There is a reason for that.
Posted by: Jaid Sep 5 2007, 10:48 PM
| QUOTE (Buster) | ||
Well, there's yar problem! Hits from the attack roll don't count when calculating penetrating hardened armor. DV 6 is not greater than 8-2, therefore not one shot got through or damaged the van. If you're firing small arms at a hardened target, you might as well be throwing rocks at it. In 2070, even the windows have the same armor value as the rest of the car. The best you can do is do a called shot to the tires (same as head shot because they're plated over and very little rubber shows). No need for houserules, the RAW covers it. |
actually, hits on the attack test do count for the purposes of penetrating armor.
it's burst fire that doesn't count.
Posted by: Aaron Sep 5 2007, 10:49 PM
| QUOTE (Buster) |
| Well, there's yar problem! Hits from the attack roll don't count when calculating penetrating hardened armor. |
You and I are obviously interpreting the phrase "modified DV" differently.*
*In case anyone's curious, I'm using the definition from the top of page 140.
Posted by: Veggiesama Sep 5 2007, 11:12 PM
| QUOTE (Buster @ Sep 5 2007, 08:52 AM) |
| Well, there's yar problem! Hits from the attack roll don't count when calculating penetrating hardened armor. DV 6 is not greater than 8-2, therefore not one shot got through or damaged the van. If you're firing small arms at a hardened target, you might as well be throwing rocks at it. In 2070, even the windows have the same armor value as the rest of the car. The best you can do is do a called shot to the tires (same as head shot because they're plated over and very little rubber shows). No need for houserules, the RAW covers it. |
Though I do think you are supposed to use the modified DV rather than the base DV, I do like your suggestion (though it's not RAW). It neatly skirts the problem of pistols being able to damage a big van, while still allowing AV rockets and the like to get by unimpeded.
OTOH, it is still rather arbitrary on the borderline. Given a van or a force 4 spirit (both with 8 hardened armor), a Ruger 100 sporting rifle (7P) can't touch them, but a PJSS Elaphant Rifle (9P) can slice right through them. But suddenly if you load up the Ruger with some EX Explosive rounds, it miraculously gains the ability to disrupt spirits and wtfpwn vans. There's still that problem with a borderline rather than gradual damage.
Posted by: Cain Sep 5 2007, 11:35 PM
| QUOTE |
| The armor is only ignored for the damage resistance test, not for the previous steps that involve a comparison of DV to Armor for the purposes of determining Stun or Physical dmg, bypassed armor (i.e., above hardened armor value) or immune to damage (i.e., below), etc. |
You're looking at the wrong page. Pg 161 says: "If the attack's modified DV does not exceed the vehicle's modified armor, no damage is applied." Since the vehicle's armor has been modified to 0 by the called shot, it gets through.
Posted by: DTFarstar Sep 6 2007, 02:04 AM
Keep in mind guys, that an armor rating of 8 doesn't meaning the van is armored. Even having the bullet ding off if it does less than 8 damage doesn't mean that. It represents the same thing that changing to stun does with an armor vest. It just means it doesn't penetrate, which with the metal shell of a car means really nothing except you should have it touched up and repainted, for us measly humans the force transfer HURTS. So, when I bullet DOES penetrate, then well I'm no mechanic, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't take too many bullets in the engine to make it mostly or completely non-functional. Once we get milspec armor, or things with a decent to high armor rating, I mean armor rating of 8? That's metal that is as hard to punch through as an Armor Jacket. Not that impressive.
Chris
Powered by Invision Power Board (http://www.invisionboard.com)
© Invision Power Services (http://www.invisionpower.com)