(bolded for emphasis)
| QUOTE ("SR4 @ p245") |
| Likewise, if a character remains in contact with a toxin over an extended time, such as being caught in a gas-filled room for several minutes, she may receive an additional dose and suffer stronger effects (or have to resist the toxin again). When the toxin's Speed period has elapsed again, apply additional concentration effects as appropriate or call for another resistance test. |
The last part of your quote pretty much answers your question. The first part is fluff for toxins that are measured in minutes (don't have the book handy, but I'm pretty sure that's the norm for a lot of the non-combat drugs), while the actual rule states that you go by the toxin's Speed.
And yes, being in a death trap is a bad thing, whether it's due to guns mounted on the ceiling or overdoses of gas. The term "death trap" kind of defines itself.
If the character is aware that he/she is inhaling poisonous gas, call for a roll after every breath the character must take after the initial Toxin Resistance check.
A standard character can hold their breath for 48 seconds (16 Combat Turns) plus Swimming + Willpower hits in additional turns.
Now if the character is dealing with Seven-7, colorless and odorless, call for some sort of edge test. "You feel funny". Make edge useful.
| QUOTE |
| ...call for a roll after every breath the character must take after the initial Toxin Resistance check.] |
| QUOTE (Robot God) |
| Make edge useful. |
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) | ||
What the Hell? |
Nope. Especially since most toxins delivered like that are designed to be breathed in more than once. The rule he cited above basically said as much, too. When the Speed elapses, another test (and possible overdosing) occurs. "Every single breath" is just silly. Particulary with the way "knock out" effects work in Shadowrun, by causing actual damage. If real gases worked the way you described, people would be dead within seconds of breathing Tear Gas.
Holding your breath, however, is a solid defense for Inhalation-vectored toxins. At least until you can't do it any longer. Which is why Internal Air Tanks and the like are really handy for anyone runner built around defense.
So let me get this straight: with NeuroStun used against Joe Schmoe, he's resisting 10 stun damage every combat turn with his measly 3 Body? After roughly 9 seconds of inhaling (or at least being immersed, because it is both Contact and Inhalation) this "stun gas" stuff, he's dead?
For the most part, keeping in mind armor treatments like Chemical Seals work against Contact-vector toxins. Also keep in mind that most gas attacks disperse soon after they're released, unless -- as described in the example -- the targets are specifically stuck in a death trap. And, again, no real shock that a death trap is deadly.
Note also that the quoted rule is more of a guideline than a fast rule. It's saying that you should do those things (if they make sense). One of the few rules in the game that are like that as written, as opposed to implied.
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| Holding your breath, however, is a solid defense for Inhalation-vectored toxins. At least until you can't do it any longer. |
Doc's point was that 'every breath' might not be applicable if those extra breaths are taken before the Speed elapses.
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| For the most part, keeping in mind armor treatments like Chemical Seals work against Contact-vector toxins. Also keep in mind that most gas attacks disperse soon after they're released, unless -- as described in the example -- the targets are specifically stuck in a death trap. And, again, no real shock that a death trap is deadly. Note also that the quoted rule is more of a guideline than a fast rule. It's saying that you should do those things (if they make sense). One of the few rules in the game that are like that as written, as opposed to implied. |
This is a weakness of the SR4 toxin rules (and the SR3 toxin rules). Realistically, toxins should not be measured in doses but in milligrams, power should be multiplied by milligrams per kilograms, and speed should be divided into an absorption rate and a half-life, while effects should be based on blood concentration. But that is overly complex.
Managing the dosage of a gas is difficult even in a controlled setting, this is why you need a trained anesthesiologist if you want to knock someone out with nitrous oxide for surgery. If you give them too much then you will kill them.
Edit:
http://www.greatestjeneration.com/archives/000558.php
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2366917.stm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_theater_hostage_crisis#Gas_attack
An example of why the corporation that makes neurostun didn't win Dunkie's non-lethal weapons bequest.
| QUOTE (Veggiesama) |
| I tried to show in my original post the discrepancy between the beginning of the paragraph ("extended time", "for several minutes") and the end of the paragraph ("When the toxin's Speed period has elapsed again"). Both mean quite different things, because the Speed period is usually only 3 seconds (or 9 seconds in the case of Nausea Gas). |
| QUOTE |
| My question is, do I have players reroll Toxin Resistance Tests every minute or every Combat Turn? Everyone seems to believe it is the latter option, but I think that it would be unrealistic to kill off people in seconds with a normal dose of stun gas. |
Especially for those of us who can breath tear gas without any ill effects.
Found out I could do that in boot camp. Apparently a few others in my boot camp company could do the same. We stood there breathing the tear gas filled air and it didn't bother us. Hell, I was fine until I got outside of the building and fresh air hit me. Then my skin started to itch a bit.
The rest of my company was hacking, coughing, crying, etc.
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) | ||||
<leans in and whispers> This game in particular is the exact antithesis of realistic. It's usually somewhat believable within the context of its own setting, but not always. Toxins and drugs have always been handled really, really poorly in Shadowrun. SR4 is no exception. Just assume one "dose" is enough to get the job done as written under normal circumstances. Characters who get knocked out by Tear Gas are successfully knocked out; the drug won't do much more. Characters who inject multiple does of Novacrack will suffer overdose issues. etc. Unless the situation is really fubar, don't give it a second thought.
That's essentially what your quoted rule is saying. It's almost as if they recognized how bizarre the rules are and are "suggesting" that you wing it depending on the situation, then give a general guideline if you need it. CS/Tear Gas is a prime example. Resisting 5S damage every Combat Turn for 2 minutes (which is how long it says a single dose persists in normal situations) is going to kill pretty much anyone who gets knocked out in it, and that's just not a very believable consequence with Tear Gas. At least not for me. |
I'm confused: it seems like the consensus is to be going for some type of realism in regards to the rules, but maybe shouldn't be. I like the SR movieish style resolution of poison, yah it's not real, but real isn't holding your breath, either.
Most poisons are not like movies where you put your shirt over your mouth and get out. There are poisonous frogs where you touch them, you touch your lips and you simply immediately die, as in the tiny, 1.5-inch, Golden Poison Frog (Phyllobates terribilis).
VX atomized in the air. Whiff, blisters, muscle convulsions, in agonizing moments, death.
Most weaponized poison gasses are also so reactive and volitile that they have very strong adhesive properties.
There's lots of bad stuff out there, that, well, if it was intended to be used as a weapon, wouldn't be that hard to get.
Improvised poisons... there's where you've got the possibility for rolls.
actually reading the whole toxin section:
| QUOTE |
| Concentration If a toxin is applied at concentrated levels (more than a single dose), the gamemaster may increase the Power of the toxin as he feels appropriate, as well as increasing the damage it causes or its other eff ects by an appropriate amount. Likewise, if a character remains in contact with a toxin over an extended period, such as being caught in a gas-filled room for several minutes, she may receive an additional dose and suffer stronger effects (or have to resist the toxin again). When the toxin’s Speed period has elapsed again, apply additional concentration effects as appropriate or call for another resistance test. |
Improvised poisons?
Mr. Johnson: That sweet taste in your drink is antifreeze, Mr. Shadorunner. You will die of kidney failure sever hours from now if you don't drink absurdly large amounts of real alcohol. Mwa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!
One silly question – how many doses does it take to fill a gas grenade?
One dose is one dose; enough to get the job done. One dose of Gamma-Scopolamine is a completely different volume than one dose of CS/Tear Gas, for instance.
Ohh, time to load up the grenades with Gamma Scop and DSMO.
Fun times!
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| The mistake isn't that the rules are bizarre so much as that someone made tear gas that causes stun damage. That was a mistake. |
| QUOTE (Whipstitch) | ||
Definitely. The RAW gets the job done as a quick and dirty way to handle gases that are truly meant to be deadly, but the Tear Gas is ridiculous. |
| QUOTE (Jaid) | ||||
we can always just assume that this is the 2070 version of tear gas, and that it isn't quite as 'gentle' as our modern day tear gas i suppose. |
Just take away the stun damage and just leave Disorientation.
For something stronger, take away Stun and Disorientation and make it give a -Power/2 (round up) dice penalty.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| Just take away the stun damage and just leave Disorientation. For something stronger, take away Stun and Disorientation and make it give a -Power/2 (round up) dice penalty. |
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