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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Sustaining Spells
Posted by: Zhan Shi Sep 5 2007, 08:34 PM
The -2 modifier for sustaining....does it apply to all actions, or only to magical actions such as spellcasting?
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Sep 5 2007, 08:35 PM
It applies to most rolls unless specifically stated otherwise (such as Drain/Damage Resistance Tests).
Posted by: Zhan Shi Sep 5 2007, 08:53 PM
Suppose the character also had the multi tasking adept power. Would that eliminate the penalty?
Posted by: Irian Sep 5 2007, 08:55 PM
No.
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Sep 5 2007, 08:57 PM
Nope. Multi-tasking is about receiving input from multiple sources and not being distracted from lots of input. The sustaining penalty is more about concentrating and the strain "holding" the spell has on their body and mind.
Posted by: Zhan Shi Sep 5 2007, 09:03 PM
Well, that settles it. Thanks, guys.
Posted by: Big D Sep 6 2007, 12:26 AM
Get an ally. 
Posted by: Da9iel Sep 6 2007, 04:00 AM
You HUSH!
Posted by: laughingowl Sep 6 2007, 04:14 AM
Well one big thing that fixes a portion of the ally problem..
While it says they can sustain A spell...
Nothing says they can sustain multiple spells..
If you go with Ally spirits as written (as opposed to as author intended)... then I seriously suggest you atleast limit to saying it can only sustain ONE spell for you...
Still make it a pretty cheap sustaining foci...
and could still abuse by having a horde of low level ally spirits.. (nothing says you can't summon more then one)...
But unless you have a real secure place... somebody killing one of your force 1 'cheap sustaining batteries' is going ot hurt alittle in the karma runs...
Posted by: Tarantula Sep 6 2007, 05:10 AM
Incorrect laughingowl. SM, 105, "An ally spirit may Aid Sorcery and Aid Study (see p. 178, SR4) exactly as if it was a normal bound spirit. An ally spirit is considered to be appropriate for every spell category for this purpose, and does not count against the limit of one bound spirit aiding in the learning of a spell."
SR4, 179, "A magician can call upon a spirit for Spell Sustaining a spell in the appropriate category.While the spirit maintains the spell, the magician does not sufer any sustaining modifiers for that particular spell. One service is used up for each period equal to the spirit's Force in Combat Turns that it sustains the spell."
As long as the spirit has services, it can sustain more spells (taking a simple action for each for the magician to command it to sustain the spell). Ally's have infinite services, thusly, can sustain infinite spells indefinately.
Posted by: Big D Sep 6 2007, 02:13 PM
Of infinite power, since the spirit's magic score never enters into the calculation in RAW.
Yeah, as Frank's already said, that needs to be fixed at some point.
Who would ever bond a sustaining focus? 8 karma gets you Guard+infinite sustain.
Posted by: Tarantula Sep 6 2007, 04:15 PM
Yes. A force 1 ally spirit can sustain an infinite amount of infinite force spell indefinately. Definately gotta get me one of those.
Posted by: Mikado Sep 6 2007, 05:10 PM
| QUOTE |
| As long as the spirit has services, it can sustain more spells (taking a simple action for each for the magician to command it to sustain the spell). Ally's have infinite services, thusly, can sustain infinite spells indefinately. |
Easy fix to this. Spirits (Allies included) can only sustain one spell with a force no greater than their own force at a time. We play it this way in our group and the mages have no complaints. (I play one of the two mages)
We also upped the sustaining times for spirits to force in minutes per service used (allies can therefore sustain indefinitely, but only up to their force)
We also limit the spirits by saying they will not do anything else while holding a spell except defend themselves if attacked. As in: will not use any other powers, does not give bonus dice, ect...
Posted by: Moon-Hawk Sep 6 2007, 05:45 PM
| QUOTE (Mikado) | ||
Easy fix to this. Spirits (Allies included) can only sustain one spell with a force no greater than their own force at a time. We play it this way in our group and the mages have no complaints. (I play one of the two mages) |
An alternate, slightly more generous fix would be: Spirits (Allies included) can only sustain a number of spells with a total force no greater than their own force at a time.
Exact same scenario for the single power spell scenario, but allows for the possibility of sustaining multiple weaker spells. If you want that sort of thing.
Posted by: Mikado Sep 6 2007, 06:32 PM
| QUOTE |
| An alternate, slightly more generous fix would be: Spirits (Allies included) can only sustain a number of spells with a total force no greater than their own force at a time. |
Yea, you could do that... We just define them as sustaining foci for ease of use. When I have a spirit hold a spell It is usually at my max (non-physical) force and the spirit is as well.
Force 4 for the win... or is that well balanced for the win???
Posted by: Hartbaine Sep 6 2007, 06:36 PM
Ya'all can take the simplest question and degenerate it into a 91 post debate, can'tcha?
Wow.
Posted by: laughingowl Sep 6 2007, 10:05 PM
| QUOTE (Tarantula) |
| Incorrect laughingowl. SM, 105, "An ally spirit may Aid Sorcery and Aid Study (see p. 178, SR4) exactly as if it was a normal bound spirit. An ally spirit is considered to be appropriate for every spell category for this purpose, and does not count against the limit of one bound spirit aiding in the learning of a spell." SR4, 179, "A magician can call upon a spirit for Spell Sustaining a spell in the appropriate category.While the spirit maintains the spell, the magician does not sufer any sustaining modifiers for that particular spell. One service is used up for each period equal to the spirit's Force in Combat Turns that it sustains the spell." As long as the spirit has services, it can sustain more spells (taking a simple action for each for the magician to command it to sustain the spell). Ally's have infinite services, thusly, can sustain infinite spells indefinately. |
INCORRECT...
Attack person X is also a service...
You can NOT tell spirit Attack person X until dead...
Next phase
Attack person Y until dead..
and have the spirit attack two different people at the same time...
NOTHING in the rules states it is possible for a spirit to physicaly sustain multiple spells....
Now to be honest nothing states it is impossible.....
But you can not give request a services.
Hold this car up... until sundown..
Beat up (read massage) this dragons back untili sundown...
Fix up my ford americar .. (task spirit maybe)...
and have it do three things at once...
While 'powers' have a stated limit on the number of powers it can sustain (its magic)... those are powers..
| QUOTE |
| A magician can call upon a spirit for Spell Sustaining a spell in the appropriate category. While the spirit maintains the spell, the magician does not suff er any sustaining modifiers for that particular spell. One service is used up for each period equal to the spirit’s Force in Combat Turns that it sustains the spell. A Force 3 spirit that owes two services, for example, can only sustain a spell for 6 Combat Turns. Th e magician can take over sustaining the spell as the spirit fi nishes this service (or at any time) so that the spell does not end. If a spirit is disrupted or banished while sustaining a spell, the spell ends. Similar to Spell sustaining, a magician can also engage a bound spirit for Spell Binding, maintaining a spell for even longer periods. Doing so, however, irrevocably depletes the spirit’s Force. A spirit can maintain a spell for a number of days equal to its Force. Each day, or part thereof, permanently reduces the spirit’s Force by 1. When its Force reaches 0, it disappears, completely consumed—which explains why spirits dislike this service and will grow reluctant to aid a magician who abuses spirits this way. Th e magician can release the spirit before it runs out of Force in order to end the spell ahead of schedule, but the spirit is still free of its bond. Spell Binding uses up all of a bound spirit’s remaining services. |
Nothing in the main book, and nothing in SM (that I have read)... ever says a spirit (any spirit) can sustain more then one spell...
If you DO alllow a spirit to sustain more then one spell ...
Do you allow a spirit to 'aid sorcery' more then once...
Can a mage with a force 4 spirit (and say 12 services owed..) call them all in for a whooping 48 extra dice on his casting roll? (or better yet, one his resist drain, from 'insta-death' cast spell...
Nothing in the rules 'prohibit' it.... Yet come sense says F.. no (at least that is what my common sense yells)....
Nothing in the rules allows it either...
Posted by: DTFarstar Sep 6 2007, 10:26 PM
The thing is, laughningowl, no one can do all 3 of those things in either example at the same time. No one can be in multiple places at once. However, with the exception of adepts with the Living Focus power, anyone capable of sustaining a spell is capable of sustaining 3 spells.
Chris
Posted by: laughingowl Sep 6 2007, 10:58 PM
Actually wrong again..
most spirits (unless the owe services to their summoner) can NOT sustain spells..
most do not spell casting, innate spell, etc...
If the spirit actually has 'spellcasting' you are much better off (normally) telling the spirit to cast the spell and then sustain it...
here the spirit sustain it until sunrise/sundown.... now Force turns.... All for a service...
up to 12 hours (heck months if you use the go to north pole trick) of sustained spell for 1 service or turns for 1 service... you call.
it is clear that 'aid sorcery' is NOT normally sustain spells.. (one no mention of the spirit actually taking ''die penalties'..
Do you have the spirit suddenly develop a -2 to all actions... for each spell they are sustaining for you... nothing in aid sorcery implies this... but your logic they should...
Aid sorcery (sustain spell) is NOT 'sustain spell' it is Aid sorcery...
though also like said (though I do have email in Rob for clarification)... right now RAW doesnt define it either way, so it is PURELY GM call....
If force 1 ally spirit locked away in safety sustain 1,000,000,000 spells for you bothers you...
Spirits can only sustain 1 spell (via aid sorcery: If 'they' cast the spell they sustain it per normal rules (and take corresponding -2 dice to all thing)...
IF an Force 1 Ally spirit sustaining 1,000,000,000,000 spells for you doesnt bother, you then leet me play a mage in your game
Now yes this could be looking at 'weaking' regular spirits... since I don't find spirits (with limited services) being burned up faster is overbalanced... but honestly how many people out there actually use spirits this way... and how much are the spendingon ritual materials....
Do you really regularly have a spirit sustain more then one spell.... (burning through 2+ services every force turns?) thats some pretty expensive help....
While there are other ways of fixing it... mine arguably is still 'RAW' since it isn't expressed either way...
Again if they can use the 'Aid sorcery' service (whch is what they are doing) do you allow them to use that multiple times? (have too if they can sustain mutiple spells)... so once again can use all 5 services to aid casting... and get 20+ extra dice?
Posted by: Fortune Sep 6 2007, 11:30 PM
| QUOTE (Hartbaine) |
| Ya'all can take the simplest question and degenerate it into a 91 post debate, can'tcha? Wow. |
Welcome to Dumpshock!
Posted by: Fortune Sep 6 2007, 11:35 PM
| QUOTE (laughingowl) |
| Do you have the spirit suddenly develop a -2 to all actions... for each spell they are sustaining for you... nothing in aid sorcery implies this... but your logic they should... Aid sorcery (sustain spell) is NOT 'sustain spell' it is Aid sorcery... |
Damn right! Aid Sorcery is the name of the Power, which includes the ability to sustain a spell. Sustaining a spell incurs a penalty.
Posted by: Big D Sep 6 2007, 11:45 PM
| QUOTE (Fortune) | ||
Welcome to Dumpshock! |
I like sw--err, yeah.
(I almost went with "WoW? THIS... IS... DUMPSHOCK!")
Personally, I like the idea of limiting it to F spells or even F total force in spells. Imposing -2 is a harsher but still viable option (that effectively limits it to F spells, but with extra penalities below that).
And laughingowl, we're talking about allies here--all allies have spellcasting available, even if the tradition doesn't have Man in it.
Posted by: DTFarstar Sep 7 2007, 01:03 AM
I don't know if you were really responding to me or not laughingowl. I'm not completely sure what the whole point of your argument was besides that you believe it to be unbalancing, which I agree it could be, if allies can sustain multiple spells. It seems to be that if you wouldn't let someone use all their services at once to add a billion dice to a test then why are you allowing them to use multiple versions of the same service to sustain many spells. The main difference in my eyes is that one would be requesting the spirit to do multiple instantaneous actions instantaneously and the other one would be asking it to do multiple lengthy actions at once. The only reason you can't do the first is because the spirit can't do those things at the same time- he has but one instant in which to send his power to you, he doesn't have the time to aid you multiple times. But unless you are telling me that sustaining a spell prevents the spirit from doing OTHER things as well, then it shouldn't prevent him from sustaining an additional spell unless it says it does.
Again, I can see how this might be unbalanced for most people, but to me it makes the most logical sense of the rules and I generally trust my players to play responsibly. Otherwise I tell them no, or they generally escalate things till it gets them killed anyway.
Chris
Posted by: Tarantula Sep 7 2007, 06:47 AM
| QUOTE (laughingowl) |
| INCORRECT... Attack person X is also a service... You can NOT tell spirit Attack person X until dead... |
Actually, no, you're wrong. SR4, 177, "Continual use of a specific power counts as only one service. A spirit can use its powers on an individual target or a group, depending on the power. If the parameters of a service are changed, for example by requesting a spirit use its Concealment power on more characters than it had been affecting previously, another service is used. The use of combative powers or abilities by a spirit on behalf of its summoner only counts as one service, regardless of the number of foes involved."
You can tell a spirit attack person X until they are dead.
| QUOTE (laughingowl) |
| Next phase Attack person Y until dead.. and have the spirit attack two different people at the same time... |
Sure you can. As in my quote, you're just changing the parameters of the service. To, "attack Person x AND person Y until they are both dead." The spirit will do what it can to do that. It'll cost another service, and the spirit will continue pummeling them however it best can until both are dead or it is disrupted.
| QUOTE (laughingowl) |
| NOTHING in the rules states it is possible for a spirit to physicaly sustain multiple spells.... |
SR4, 195, "Sustained spells last for as long as the magician concentrates on them."
SR4, 179, "A magician can call upon a spirit for Spell Sustaining a spell in the appropriate category. While the spirit maintains the spell, the magician does not suffer any sustaining modifiers for that particular spell. One service is used up for each period equal to the spirit’s Force in Combat Turns that it sustains the spell. A Force 3 spirit that owes two services, for example, can only sustain a spell for 6 Combat Turns. The magician can take over sustaining the spell as the spirit finishes this service (or at any time) so that the spell does not end. If a spirit is disrupted or banished while sustaining a spell, the spell ends."
Thusly, for example, I cast force 1 improved invisibilty. Then I command my ally to sustain it for me. Then I cast force 1 physical mask. Then I command my ally to sustain both for me. Spell sustaining doesn't take any action, so the spirit can spell sustain as many spells as I want it to, expending a service for every spell.
| QUOTE (laughingowl) |
| Now to be honest nothing states it is impossible..... |
Thats because it isn't.
| QUOTE (laughingowl) |
| But you can not give request a services. Hold this car up... until sundown.. Beat up (read massage) this dragons back untili sundown... Fix up my ford americar .. (task spirit maybe)... and have it do three things at once... |
You're right. Now give me magical action examples. If I have a spirit sustaining one spell, is it unable to move, use other powers, materialize, or even just defend itself from another spirit attacking it astrally? Spell sustaining takes NO action for a spirit. Just a service/force in combat turns.
| QUOTE (laughingowl) |
| While 'powers' have a stated limit on the number of powers it can sustain (its magic)... those are powers.. Nothing in the main book, and nothing in SM (that I have read)... ever says a spirit (any spirit) can sustain more then one spell... |
That is because they can. They sustain spells by expending services. It takes a simple action from the controlling mage to command them to sustain the next spell. It also takes that controlling mage a complex action to cast the spell in the first place. It costs the spirit one service to sustain the spell for its force in combat turns.
| QUOTE (laughingowl) |
| If you DO alllow a spirit to sustain more then one spell ... Do you allow a spirit to 'aid sorcery' more then once... Can a mage with a force 4 spirit (and say 12 services owed..) call them all in for a whooping 48 extra dice on his casting roll? (or better yet, one his resist drain, from 'insta-death' cast spell... |
The text explicity says that the spirit adds its force to the casters pool for one attempt. Negating this use of the aid sorcery power, you can have it burn all 12 services on one attempt, but it'll only ever add its force, which is 4.
| QUOTE (laughingowl) |
| Nothing in the rules 'prohibit' it.... Yet come sense says F.. no (at least that is what my common sense yells).... |
Yes, they do, heres the quote: SR4, 178, "When a spirit performs the Aid Sorcery service, it adds its Force to the summoner’s dice pool for any Spellcasting, Ritual Spellcasting, or Counterspelling attempt, regardless of the time required for the test."
| QUOTE (laughingowl) |
| Nothing in the rules allows it either... |
And yet, the rules on spell sustaing do allow multiple spells to be sustained, both by magicians, and by spirits.
As far as making the ally take a -2 dice pool per spell sustained, thats fine. He just sits around at home and makes himself happy. He doesn't ever actually go on the run. So who cares if hes at a -2394029348923042 dice pool, he can still sustain more spells and do nothing all day long.
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