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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Homo sapiens superior

Posted by: Firefox Sep 6 2007, 06:26 PM

As i was able to take a short look at augmentation, i rushed to the rules of genetech.
As it is possible to equip a char only with cyberware or bioware, i hoped that genetech offers enough stuff to allow a 3rd way of character equipment.
Upgrading a char only with genetech.

Actually i haven´t found what i´ve searched for. Is there no genetech that can increase the attributes directly? I´ve only found genetic optimization and was really disappointed about that. Only increasing attribute maximums without increasing the attribute itself.

Ok in short: Is there a way to power up a character only using genetech and no cyber- and bioware to the same level as if i would have used cyber- or bioware?

Posted by: Hartbaine Sep 6 2007, 06:30 PM

Yes. Two ways.

1. Be an Adept. Cyber and Bioware are for the worthless and weak.

2. As a GM simply say "9 is the new 6. But it costs 3 (4, 10) times the amount of karma to get there."

It's your game, if you don't like it fix it.

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Sep 6 2007, 06:49 PM

Without using cyberware? Sure. But why skip on bioware?

It's essentially genetech focused on specific organs rather than your entire biology (and some bioware is even available as genetech). It's little more than a change in terminology and how/when the modifications take place; genetech manipulates your body at the source, bioware manipulates organs before they're implanted. But it's all the same, really.

That said, you really don't even need implants to be competitive. Take a look at the Weapon Specialist archetype in the main book as an example; she doesn't have a lick of magic or a single implant, yet she's not all that different from any of the other archetypes.

Posted by: Hartbaine Sep 6 2007, 06:58 PM

D.Funk makes a good point. In 4th Edition they made it a tad bit easier for non-augmented metahumans to compete with their cybered/bioed counterparts.

Mind you I said 'a tad bit easier'... I still watch goons get smeared by wired Sams at the gaming table quite often.

A bit off topic, I've incorporated the "Body Index" back into 4th Edition with regards to bioware with the stipulation that you can't 'double dip' on effective implants. It's still in its testing stages but so far we haven't had any problems keeping it balanced.

Removing Body Index was a bad idea IMO, it's now impossible to go for the 'all natural' look. Hehe.

Posted by: Buster Sep 6 2007, 07:04 PM

QUOTE (Firefox @ Sep 6 2007, 01:26 PM)

Ok in short: Is there a way to power up a character only using genetech and no cyber- and bioware to the same level as if i would have used cyber- or bioware?

Yes, but you'd still have to pay the BP for it at chargen. Your starter character could have 6 in all physical stats because he's genemodded to grow that way, or because he works out everyday, or because he's a skinny Adept like Buffy. It's up to you to decide why your character has the stats he has.

Posted by: Blade Sep 6 2007, 07:08 PM

If genetech increased attributes it'd have been redundant with cyberware/bioware/adepts powers, have led to muchkinism and wouldn't have offered anything really new or interesting.

I guess it's better if it's different.

Posted by: WearzManySkins Sep 6 2007, 07:44 PM

Ok under Transgenetic Alteration-Animal Features you can have Geneware that gives you:
Cat Eyes
Troll Eyes(note if troll eyes is taken, then cat eyes can not be taken and vice versa)
Chameleon Skin
Clean Metabolism
Chloroplast Skin
Hair Growth
Sensitive Skin
Skin Pigmentation
Ecolocation
Elastic Joints
Enhanced Pheromone Receptors
Extended Volume
Gecko Hands
Gills
Hand and Foot Webbing
Hearing Enhancement
Quills
Spider Silk Gland
Tactile Sensitivity
Tailored Critter Pheromones
Vocal Range Extender
Chemical Gland with most of its delivery methods
Nicatating Membrane
Skin Pocket

Some of the Cultured Bioware(GM Call)
Thermosense Organs
Reception Enhancer

Now a GM "could" allow some of the other basic bioware like
Muscle Augmentation(animal muscles like monkeys and tigers is of a more stronger nature than ours)
Muscle Toner(again animal tissues)

The time frame to perform most of this work would make it an option for pregame character creation,,,In game,,unless the character is a heavy matrix user,,massive amounts of down time.

Again if you were to choose Transgenetic Alteration-Animal Features-Tiger some of the above can be used as transgenetics, but that is up to you and your GM, better have a good back story for most GM's.

WMS

Posted by: venenum Sep 6 2007, 07:48 PM

QUOTE (Hartbaine)

body index is in the shadowrun 3rd rules main book right. Ill go read my friends copy.

How did you add it back in just used the old values, or did you make new values?

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Sep 6 2007, 08:48 PM

QUOTE (Hartbaine)

Removing Body Index was a bad idea IMO, it's now impossible to go for the 'all natural' look. Hehe.

...I concur.

...However I see the bigger limiting factor for Bio as being cost & starting resources. Even adjusting for the change in power scale between 3rd ed & 4th ed, I found it impossible to re-build a couple of characters I used to run that had only bio augmentations.

Example:

200,000

(Synaptic Accelerator II) out of 1 million = 20% max resources
160,000

(Synaptic Booster II) out of 250,000 = 64% max resources. That is a big difference.

Add rating 2 Orthoskin (60,000) - there goes most of your Maximum starting resource allowance (88%).

The same two augmentations in previous editions would use up about 25% of maximum the starting allotment.

I feel that the costs should either have been brought more in line to the economic scale, and/or the cap for starting resources been higher, say 500K

Much of the standard Bio has been around now for what 15 or so years? (I think in game time, Shadowtech would fall around 2053 - 2055). Costs for most of the cyber have in some cases drastically been reduced. However much, if not all, Bio is still priced at the same level as when it was first introduced and considered very cutting edge. One would think the cost should have come down at least a bit in that amount of time.

It's kind of similar to the issue of Adept power costs. 4 is the "new 6" but the "new 6" buys you only "4" worth of powers as the power costs were not adjusted to match the change in scale.

...sorry for the slight derail, just my two Zloty's on the issue

Posted by: Gelare Sep 6 2007, 10:11 PM

QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)

I feel that the costs should either have been brought more in line to the economic scale, and/or the cap for starting resources been higher, say 500K

Much of the standard Bio has been around now for what 15 or so years? (I think in game time, Shadowtech would fall around 2053 - 2055). Costs for most of the cyber have in some cases drastically been reduced. However much, if not all, Bio is still priced at the same level as when it was first introduced and considered very cutting edge. One would think the cost should have come down at least a bit in that amount of time.

Now granted, my opinion is a more than a little biased since I've never played SR3, but just in terms of overall game balance, I find bioware to be appropriately priced. The high essence costs of cyberware are actually limiting - like they should be, or else Essence would just exist for the sake of screwing over technomancers. *shakes fist* Sorry, old habits. My bad. Anyway, where was I? Right, bio. Bioware has a quite significant nuyen cost - pretty much no runner is gonna have Synapses 3, no contest - but the other stuff is accessible, in the sense of being a luxury. If you want to get strong easy, swap out your muscles for metal. If you want the fancy stuff, you get to shell out for it. It should be expensive, and indeed it is.

QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)

...sorry for the slight derail, just my two Zloty's on the issue

Woohoo! Zlotys!

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Sep 8 2007, 04:29 AM

...however, as I mentioned by taking into consideration the reduced resources cap at chargen, bioware has effectively increased threefold in cost from previous editions. Meanwhile the cost of most Cyber has decreased.

I would keep the same availability ratings for that is the real limit on how much augmentation you can get at any one time. You want Synaptic 3 after chargen? that's 15 hits your fixer has to get to even find it. Even in an extended test, success isn't a given.

Also, the reduction it doesn't have to be across the board as some bio, (such as muscle Augmentation/Toner) is already relatively inexpensive and a few others such as Cerebral Boosting which used to be 55K per rating in older editions) has been reduced in cost. Primarily I am looking at are the implants that cost above 20K like Orthoskin, Synaptic Booster, and Enhanced articulation (which does not grant the benefits it used to).

Posted by: Zhan Shi Sep 8 2007, 04:40 AM

If you're asking "Can bioware be genetically programed into a human embryo?", a la Khan Singh from Star Trek, I would say sure. I'm not certain what essence rating an embryonic metahuman has, however.