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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Say it ain't so!
Posted by: Tanegar Sep 10 2007, 12:03 AM
I dropped by the local bookstore today, noticed they had a copy of SR4, and snagged it. Giving the new (well, new to me, anyway) character creation rules a preliminary skim, I noticed this on page 84 under "Cyberware and Bioware:"
| QUOTE |
| In addition to the nuyen cost, each item of cyberware or bioware also has a secondary cost in Essence. |
Bioware now costs Essence? Why? Please tell me this is a misprint.
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Sep 10 2007, 12:06 AM
Streamlining.
They do cost Essence, but only half the listed cost if you have more Cyberware than Bioware. If you have more Bioware, the Cyberware costs are halved instead. Don't ask me why they did that. Should have just cut Bioware Essence costs in half to begin with and called it a day.
You have to remember that the main point of Essence is to limit how many implants you get for your character. From a metagaming point of view, having Bioware eat up Essence makes total sense. Doubly so since Essence is also used to limit implants versus Magic, and even in the old system Bio Index affected Essence. So it's all just streamlined.
It's that whole halving thing that completely negates any attempt to streamline the rules though. The exceptions are weird, bizarre situations crop up because of it, and there's no reason that Cyberware should have less impact on a character's system than Bioware.
Posted by: MaxHunter Sep 10 2007, 12:11 AM
Welcome to Fourth ed! I didn't like that at first, but now I am quite happy with that and mostly everything else.
Good luck with converting some characters though!
Cheers,
Max
Posted by: Tanegar Sep 10 2007, 12:15 AM
But why make it cost Essence at all? What was wrong with the Body Index system? Simpler doesn't necessarily mean better, and I'm not even sure the new system is any simpler. You still have to track two separate cumulative costs: one for cyberware and one for bioware.
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Sep 10 2007, 12:19 AM
Not really, only when calculating the Essence impact.
Posted by: James McMurray Sep 10 2007, 12:21 AM
You can also get your bioware in different grades now, to help with the essence cost. Alternatively, you can take the 30 BP positive quality from Augmentation and all of your bioware will be considered delta grade.
As for why, it's definitely simpler. You're still tracking two numbers, but it's not as annoying as bioindex, since they both feed into the same final product.
If you pick up Augmentation you'll see that Symbiotes, Genetech, and Nanoware also take essence. Basically, if it's a large change to your base body identity, it'll cost essence. Bioware and Genetech are all very low, since they're as natural as the scientists can make it.
Posted by: Fortune Sep 10 2007, 12:47 AM
| QUOTE (James McMurray) |
| Alternatively, you can take the 30 BP positive quality from Augmentation and all of your bioware will be considered delta grade. |
All of your non-cultured bioware will be Delta.
Posted by: Aaron Sep 10 2007, 02:25 AM
How is one not less than human when bioware is implanted?
I suppose one could claim that one is more than human, but there's still a delta-humanity there. So I can see it.
Posted by: toturi Sep 10 2007, 02:52 AM
Can cultured bioware be had at a higher grade than standard? The FAQ says yes, but the bioware rules seem to indicate no, except that it doesn't spell it out explicitly like in geneware.
BTW, it is nano-cybernetics that cost Essense - nanoware do not cost Essense.
Posted by: Jaid Sep 10 2007, 02:54 AM
where do the bioware rules imply that cultured bioware doesn't come in grades?
Posted by: Fortune Sep 10 2007, 02:58 AM
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| Can cultured bioware be had at a higher grade than standard? |
Yes. All Bioware comes in grades.
Posted by: Malachi Sep 10 2007, 03:48 AM
I really don't understand why lots of people seem to freak out about this. I always perceived the whole "bio index" system as strange anyway. When I saw SR4 had bioware costing Essence my reaction was "finally." Remember, your Bio-index was based on your Essence anyway. When your Essence went down, so did your Bio-index. They were "joined at the hip" anyway, so why not just merge them together?
Posted by: Synner Sep 10 2007, 07:55 AM
Two things to keep in mind regarding Bioware costing Essence:
- You add up your total cyberware Essence cost. Then you add up your total bioware Essence cost separately. After that you add half the smaller value to the bigger and subtract that total from your Essence. (ie. 4 Essence spent on cyberware + 2 Essence spent on bioware = 5 total Essence spent and not 6).
- Bioware (and to a certain extent Cyberware) Essence costs have been adjusted, so don't jump to conclusions based on SR3 costs.
- As of Augmentation some Geneware adds to your Bioware total and some Nanocybernetics go to your Cyberware total.
Posted by: Aristotle Sep 10 2007, 12:30 PM
I was a little unsure when I first saw this, but given that 3rd edition's Bio Index was based off of Essence anyway... it didn't seem like too huge a change. I definately like only having to track a single number, and with the way costs (and the whole half-of-the lesser thing) are set up it seems to work just fine.
I'd like to get some clarification on the cultured bioware thing too.
Posted by: darthmord Sep 10 2007, 02:14 PM
My house rule clarification of cultured bioware...
If you have the Type O Trait, then all bioware (cultured for you & off-the-shelf stuff) is considered Delta grade.
How's that for simple?
Posted by: Fortune Sep 10 2007, 03:16 PM
It might be simple, but it still is, as you say, a house rule.
Posted by: Cain Sep 10 2007, 07:59 PM
I have to agree: halving the lowest of the two has got to be one of the sillier concepts of "streamlining" I've ever seen.
But anyway, here's a question. If you have the Type O Edge, what happens when you've got more bio than cyber? Is it halved yet again? Potentially taking things to four decimal places?
Posted by: deek Sep 10 2007, 08:20 PM
I can't remember where I read this, but it was saying that (with regards to game mechanics), anytime you start multiplying and dividing, you start adding complexities to the system...and for the most part, you start taking it out of the hands of the common gamer...
Posted by: Kyoto Kid Sep 10 2007, 08:27 PM
| QUOTE (Malachi) |
| I really don't understand why lots of people seem to freak out about this. I always perceived the whole "bio index" system as strange anyway. When I saw SR4 had bioware costing Essence my reaction was "finally." Remember, your Bio-index was based on your Essence anyway. When your Essence went down, so did your Bio-index. They were "joined at the hip" anyway, so why not just merge them together? |
...for one, because the essence index cap was 9 instead of 6
For example, you could have 3 Essence worth of Cyber and still implant up to 6 BI of bio. In 4th edition you are left with only the remaining 3 Essence for bio. Furthermore if you exceeded your essence index with Bioware, the implants were only more prone to overstress. On the other hand, if you exceed your 6 Essence, the character simply dies. So for a bioware/genetech heavy character, there is no break. Once you reach 6 essence worth, that is it whereas in 3rd ed a character could go up to 9, provided she had little or no chrome (a good example was my baseball throwing sammy Tomoe who had about 8 of her EI taken up by Bioware with almost no chrome outside of a couple of retinal mods)
Bioware is also so bloody expensive as it is that I would never even consider Beta or even Alpha grade.
Cain, I agree with you on the silliness of the "1/2 rule". The old index was not really all that unwieldy to figure out.
Posted by: Aristotle Sep 10 2007, 08:54 PM
| QUOTE (Kyoto Kid) |
| For example, you could have 3 Essence worth of Cyber and still implant up to 6 BI of bio. In 4th edition you are left with only the remaining 3 Essence for bio. |
Is that right? Skipping past the fact that essence costs have been modified and that you really can't compare ware from the two editions point for point... You would be halving one of the two, wouldn't you? So wouldn't it be closer to 4 points of one and 4 (technically 3.99) of another, halved to 2 (1.995), to fill 6 essence? So the theoretical point comparison would be 8 to 9, wouldn't it?
Posted by: Kyoto Kid Sep 11 2007, 12:45 AM
...OK Ill give in to that in the case of an even mix of bio & cyber. "Effectively" one can get close to 6 essence worth of bio.
However for the character that is all bio, (like the example I mentioned) she does not gain this benefit and can only take a maximum of 5.99 in Bio implants instead of 9.
That was one of the beauties of bioware and why, back then, I had no issue with the higher cost. Plain and simple, Bio was slick stuff. Now it is treated pretty much as a "wet" version of cyber (for lack of a better term) which takes away from a character's metahumanity even if it is cloned directly from her own genetic code. The book even applies the same grades (α, β, Δ) as for cyber. In the past the only way to get a reduction to Body Index impact was to have the implant cultured, and you could only do that with Standard Bioware.
One more reason I oft find myself "looking backwards down the road"
Posted by: Fortune Sep 11 2007, 02:28 AM
| QUOTE (Kyoto Kid) |
| α, β, Δ |
Dude!
How do you do those?
Posted by: darthmord Sep 11 2007, 11:58 AM
ALT + XXXX number codes.
Can also use the character map in Windows to copy & paste those.
Posted by: Fortune Sep 11 2007, 12:45 PM
| QUOTE (darthmord) |
| ALT + XXXX number codes. Can also use the character map in Windows to copy & paste those. |
Yeah, thanks. I figured that was the case. I never think to use the character map thingie.
Posted by: James McMurray Sep 11 2007, 02:03 PM
| QUOTE (deek) |
| I can't remember where I read this, but it was saying that (with regards to game mechanics), anytime you start multiplying and dividing, you start adding complexities to the system...and for the most part, you start taking it out of the hands of the common gamer... |
If you can't multiply decimals, you're not welcome at my table anyway.
Posted by: Aaron Sep 11 2007, 02:39 PM
| QUOTE (deek) |
| I can't remember where I read this, but it was saying that (with regards to game mechanics), anytime you start multiplying and dividing, you start adding complexities to the system...and for the most part, you start taking it out of the hands of the common gamer... |
I'm not so certain that it's the common gamer you're taking anything away from. Anybody who can't perform arithmetic on fractions or can't use a calculator probably shouldn't be gaming (the same for those who can't afford a calculator; they have better things to think about).
It does take the game away from the casual gamer, however. Although I'd say if a player has abandoned the archetypes and is either generating her own starting character or buying high-grade cyberware, she's left the realm of the casual gamer.
Posted by: Kyoto Kid Sep 11 2007, 02:46 PM
| QUOTE (Fortune) | ||
Dude! How do you do those? |
...ahem...?
...well I always keep Word open to do my spell checking (I've had PHP Spell break down too many times). When I want some special character like, say, the above Greek, Cyrillic, or Croatian with accents, I type it in Word first and then paste.
Posted by: Lagomorph Sep 11 2007, 06:30 PM
I think I'll take the 3rd position and say that both of them are pretty clunky. I'd even be fine with saying 9 is the new 6 for essence! Mages are already over powered, so it's not like it's that much more frosting on the mage cake.
That being said, I understood SR4's rules on the first read through, it took me more than one read through to understand the bioindex section in SR3's source book.
Posted by: Fortune Sep 11 2007, 08:11 PM
| QUOTE (Kyoto Kid) |
| ...well I always keep Word open to do my spell checking (I've had PHP Spell break down too many times). When I want some special character like, say, the above Greek, Cyrillic, or Croatian with accents, I type it in Word first and then paste. |
Um ... thanks, I think.
Posted by: Whipstitch Sep 11 2007, 08:27 PM
I always thought that the bio and essence indexes were emblematic of SR3's problems in general. The mechanics worked fine and weren't even truly very difficult to use once you read through it all, but it was a bit clunky because the devs always manage to add in some new terms for people to keep track of. With the SR4 rules, you're at least always dealing with plain ol' Essence and bio and cyberware are presented as two slightly different flavors of the same mechanic. With the old bioindex rules, the book first had to clarify the difference between bioindex, essence index and essence rating just to get everyone on the same page before delving into how exactly you calculated it all out.
Posted by: Kyoto Kid Sep 11 2007, 08:52 PM
| QUOTE (Fortune) | ||
Um ... thanks, I think. |
...пожалуйÑ?та
Posted by: Adarael Sep 11 2007, 08:59 PM
Hey, Fortune. If you're running Windows, you can always expand the library of languages available to the Windows IME. You type the words phonetically using roman characters, and it converts them to the native script. It's how I can type in 日本語　/　��ん�　/　ニホンゴ using my english-based PC and keyboard.
If you don't have the IME enabled, you have to install foreign language support with the Windows disk, or download the package from online. Pretty handy stuff, IMO.
Posted by: Kerris Sep 11 2007, 08:59 PM
[offtopic]
Firefox 2 has a built-in spellchecker. Use it. Love it.
[/offtopic]
Posted by: James McMurray Sep 11 2007, 10:12 PM
| QUOTE (Adarael) |
| Hey, Fortune. If you're running Windows, you can always expand the library of languages available to the Windows IME. You type the words phonetically using roman characters, and it converts them to the native script. It's how I can type in 日本語　/　��ん�　/　ニホンゴ using my english-based PC and keyboard. |
Why would you want to type a bunch of squares seperated by slashes?
Posted by: Fortune Sep 11 2007, 10:42 PM
| QUOTE (James McMurray) | ||
Why would you want to type a bunch of squares seperated by slashes? |
They all look like '?'s to me.
But thanks none the less, Adarael.
Posted by: Ted Stewart Sep 11 2007, 11:10 PM
This touches on something that has always driven me nuts about SR: duplication of nearly identical effects.
I can improve my initiative passes via drugs, cyberware, bioware, a magical spell, or being an adept. Each of those gives a completely different description of the same effect. It's inefficient to the point of lunacy. The book should give the rules for initiative boosters in one place and then describe the various ways the same effect can be achieved. And this should apply pretty much across the board.
To get back on topic, bioware is wonderfully flavourful stuff, but it doesn't need it's own rules. If I was to redo the system, bioware would be functionally equivalent in every way to high grade cyberware. There should be fluff differences, of course, but making the system more complex to support something that is really pure fluff is lunacy.
Posted by: Cain Sep 11 2007, 11:20 PM
| QUOTE (Lagomorph) |
| That being said, I understood SR4's rules on the first read through, it took me more than one read through to understand the bioindex section in SR3's source book. |
That's got more to do with writing quality than actual complexity. Bioindex and the halving system aren't really more complicated;the halving system is just sillier, and claims to be simpler and more streamlined.
Where the difference lies is that SR4's writing quality is much better. Let's face it, FASA's layout and writing quality was never all that. So, we have a badly-written complex system that admitted it was a complex system, or a well-written complex system that lies and pretends it's simpler. Neither is really that much better than the other.
BTW, to repeat my question: If you have the Type O Edge, and you have more Cyber than Bio, does your essence cost get halved yet again? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?
Posted by: Kyoto Kid Sep 11 2007, 11:33 PM
..the other thing is you could have 6 - 9 BI worth of Bio implants and still have an Essence of 6 provided you didn't get any Cyber.
Posted by: Fortune Sep 12 2007, 12:18 AM
| QUOTE (Cain) |
| BTW, to repeat my question: If you have the Type O Edge, and you have more Cyber than Bio, does your essence cost get halved yet again? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? |
Yes, just the same as if it was Delta in the first place.
Posted by: Ranneko Sep 12 2007, 12:18 AM
| QUOTE (Cain) | ||
That's got more to do with writing quality than actual complexity. Bioindex and the halving system aren't really more complicated;the halving system is just sillier, and claims to be simpler and more streamlined. Where the difference lies is that SR4's writing quality is much better. Let's face it, FASA's layout and writing quality was never all that. So, we have a badly-written complex system that admitted it was a complex system, or a well-written complex system that lies and pretends it's simpler. Neither is really that much better than the other. BTW, to repeat my question: If you have the Type O Edge, and you have more Cyber than Bio, does your essence cost get halved yet again? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? |
Yes Cain.
Because such reductions take place on the cost that goes into the bio total.
If you buy delta bio normally, and have more cyber than bio, then the cost is halved too.
Posted by: PlatonicPimp Sep 12 2007, 12:26 AM
| QUOTE (Ted Stewart) |
| This touches on something that has always driven me nuts about SR: duplication of nearly identical effects. I can improve my initiative passes via drugs, cyberware, bioware, a magical spell, or being an adept. Each of those gives a completely different description of the same effect. It's inefficient to the point of lunacy. The book should give the rules for initiative boosters in one place and then describe the various ways the same effect can be achieved. And this should apply pretty much across the board. To get back on topic, bioware is wonderfully flavourful stuff, but it doesn't need it's own rules. If I was to redo the system, bioware would be functionally equivalent in every way to high grade cyberware. There should be fluff differences, of course, but making the system more complex to support something that is really pure fluff is lunacy. |
If that's you bag, I suggest looking at systems like Tri-stat Dx: where the rules only describe effects, and leave it to you to come up with the justifications for why they work. Under that system, if you can attack someone at 50' and do X points of damage, it costs you Y points to purchase, and you can call it a magic spell or a implanted gun or whatever you want to.
I converted shadowrun to tri-stat just before sr4 came out. But I prefer the multiple similar but slightly different effects. It gives flavor, like different varieties of tomato make a better sauce together.
Posted by: BishopMcQ Sep 12 2007, 01:31 AM
This is the moment when I would normally look at one of my players and say "get over it."
Since the Man and Machine errata came out in 2003, the concept of taking an essence hit plus half the bioware has applied to mages. With SR4, that application has been spread to everyone equally.
The 6-9 BioIndex with an essence of 6 was possible, but for the people who really cared about their essence, they still had to pay for it. Personally I think everyone playing with the same set of rules is easier to remember, and because it is halved, you can cram just about the same amount of Cyber and Bioware into your body as before. Now instead of inducing biosystem shock and then dying, you just die.
Posted by: hobgoblin Sep 12 2007, 11:20 AM
| QUOTE (PlatonicPimp) | ||
If that's you bag, I suggest looking at systems like Tri-stat Dx: where the rules only describe effects, and leave it to you to come up with the justifications for why they work. Under that system, if you can attack someone at 50' and do X points of damage, it costs you Y points to purchase, and you can call it a magic spell or a implanted gun or whatever you want to. I converted shadowrun to tri-stat just before sr4 came out. But I prefer the multiple similar but slightly different effects. It gives flavor, like different varieties of tomato make a better sauce together. |
or for that matter any superhero like game, hero, mutants&masterminds and others all use effect based systems. want to hurt someone in m&m? blast, want it to be a spell? take the magic power source, beyond that blast is blast is blast. sure you can slap some elemental effect on it, or limit its range for when you want to make someone that use fists rather then beams, but the pattern is the same every time.
hmm, didnt they release a cyberpunk game using tri-stat right before the publisher folded?
ex machina i think the title was. iirc, it got rave reviews, not because of its system but because of its settings (3 of them, describing different takes on cyberpunk iirc).
Posted by: darthmord Sep 12 2007, 12:45 PM
| QUOTE (Cain) |
| BTW, to repeat my question: If you have the Type O Edge, and you have more Cyber than Bio, does your essence cost get halved yet again? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? |
So what you are saying is you have 4 points of cyber and 3 points base (before any mods for grade and whatnot) of bio...
Well, here's what I'd say based on the the rules as written...
4 points for Cyber
0.75 points for Bio.
3 * 0.5 for Type-O / Delta Grade = 1.5
So your totals would look like so...
Cyber: 4
Bio: 1.5
Then you halve the lower value and add them together for the final Essence Cost.
This would leave you with...
Cyber: 4.0
Bio: 0.75
Total: 4.75
Remember, Type O trait allows you to treat standard Bioware as Delta Grade. Grade modifiers apply before any halving based iirc. I'm basing this on that really long thread where people were tearing apart the whole separate totals and halving thing about 2 months ago. The examples given there by Synner showed grade was applied before a given side (cyber or bio) was totalled.
Posted by: Synner Sep 12 2007, 01:48 PM
Type O quality modifications are factored directly into the implant cost during installation and so are already calculated when you add up your bioware total.
Posted by: Cain Sep 12 2007, 05:11 PM
So, l emme get this straight....
Let's say you want a Sleep Regulator (0.25 Essence).
Halve it for Type O. (.125 Essence.)
Then halve again for The Cyber/Bio split. (0.0625)
So, we're now taking things to 4 decimal places?? And this is "Streamlined"?
Next question: Does Delta grade bio still count for reductions if you have Type o?
Posted by: darthmord Sep 12 2007, 05:23 PM
As much as I'd like it to, I'd have to say no since Delta grade is basically made specifically for you. Type O is already "specifically you". Hence how do you make it "more" you?
The answer is, you can't. 
Posted by: James McMurray Sep 12 2007, 05:44 PM
| QUOTE (Cain) |
| |
| QUOTE |
| So, we're now taking things to 4 decimal places?? And this is "Streamlined"? |
Why is 4 decimal points not streamlined?
| QUOTE |
| Next question: Does Delta grade bio still count for reductions if you have Type o? |
Type O makes the bioware count as delta, so starting with delta (or anything above standard) is pointless.
Posted by: Moon-Hawk Sep 12 2007, 06:18 PM
| QUOTE (Cain) |
| So, l emme get this straight.... Let's say you want a Sleep Regulator (0.25 Essence). Halve it for Type O. (.125 Essence.) Then halve again for The Cyber/Bio split. (0.0625) So, we're now taking things to 4 decimal places?? And this is "Streamlined"? |
That's why everything should be done with fractions, instead of decimals.
So the Sleep Regulator costs 1/4 essence, out of your total of 6.
Halve it for Type O. (1/8 essence)
Halve it again for the split (1/16)
Then, if for example you need to add in something that costs 1/5, it's just 21/80, leaving you with 5 59/80, or if you prefer simple fractions 459/80! Simple! And with no cumbersome long decimals!
Posted by: James McMurray Sep 12 2007, 06:28 PM
Alternatively, just start everyone with 60,000 essence and multiply all essence costs by 10,000.
Posted by: Moon-Hawk Sep 12 2007, 06:47 PM
Ooh, I like that. I always wanted an essence of 60,000.
Posted by: ThreeGee Sep 12 2007, 06:52 PM
Alternatively get a calculator.
Posted by: Kyoto Kid Sep 12 2007, 08:20 PM
| QUOTE (Moon-Hawk) |
| Ooh, I like that. I always wanted an essence of 60,000. |
...just wait 'til another SURGE hits
Posted by: Moon-Hawk Sep 12 2007, 08:43 PM
Alright now, be honest. Who is a big dork and checked my math on the fractions thing?
Posted by: hobgoblin Sep 12 2007, 08:44 PM
sorry, i just had d&d flashbacks and walked away...
Posted by: Fortune Sep 12 2007, 09:10 PM
| QUOTE (Moon-Hawk) |
| Alright now, be honest. Who is a big dork and checked my math on the fractions thing? |
I did.
Posted by: Cain Sep 13 2007, 12:27 AM
| QUOTE |
| Why is 4 decimal points not streamlined? |
WHole numbers are streamlined. If multiplication is necessary, streamlined is multiplication by 2's and 5's and 10's, which most people can do in their heads (including GM's!)
Don't forget, it takes almost as long to dissect a character as it does to build one. If you need a calculator to do so, you're taking up a lot of tedium on both the part of the player *and* the GM. Compare this to other tactical systems, like White Wolf's Scion or Savage Worlds, and you'll see how streamlined things really can be. Compare it to a *really* steamlined system, like Wushu or Risus or Capes, and four decimal places seems to be juts plain silly.
Heck, I've never even theoretically had to go to four decimal places while playing ultra-crunch games, like GURPS or Champions. The second halving is wholly unnecessary, and just stupid.
Posted by: James McMurray Sep 13 2007, 01:00 AM
Huh. Silly me. I just do math. Never realized how complicated it was.
Posted by: hobgoblin Sep 13 2007, 01:08 AM
meh, i just round after each halving. sure, its not accurate, but it saves a bit of work
Posted by: BishopMcQ Sep 13 2007, 02:24 AM
Nowhere in the rules does it state that you must go out to 4 decimal points. If you want to and can do math in your head quickly, by all means, do so. If not, then round, and call it "Close enough." This is cybertechnology not rocket science.
Posted by: Cain Sep 13 2007, 02:52 AM
Rocket Science, no. Brain Surgery, yes.
Posted by: Ranneko Sep 13 2007, 05:47 AM
I prefer to think of cybertech as rocket surgery.
Posted by: hobgoblin Sep 13 2007, 12:03 PM
hmm, rocket powered cybertech anyone?
Posted by: James McMurray Sep 13 2007, 02:15 PM
Go, go gadget cyberskates!
Posted by: Cain Sep 13 2007, 05:34 PM
But seriously, folks...
| QUOTE |
| Nowhere in the rules does it state that you must go out to 4 decimal points. If you want to and can do math in your head quickly, by all means, do so. If not, then round, and call it "Close enough." |
That statement is essentially toturi's argument that, if the book doesn't say I can't shoot down Z-O with a hold out and enough successes, then I can do it. Which has its own silliness attached to it.
Besides, if you start rounding 0.0625 off, you're going to get a zero. So, any low-impact 'ware would become free in terms of essence. That opens up a whole can of worms I wouldn't want to touch. Zero is "close enough", but that doesn't mean it's workable.
Even if we round up, we're screwing over the pleyrs who can take things to four decimal paces. Generally, they're munchkins or power players looking for every last edge they can find. James McMurray is a perfect example: he says he does the math, showing that he wants that 0.0005 ess for something.
Posted by: neko128 Sep 13 2007, 05:45 PM
| QUOTE (Cain) | ||
But seriously, folks...
That statement is essentially toturi's argument that, if the book doesn't say I can't shoot down Z-O with a hold out and enough successes, then I can do it. Which has its own silliness attached to it. Besides, if you start rounding 0.0625 off, you're going to get a zero. So, any low-impact 'ware would become free in terms of essence. That opens up a whole can of worms I wouldn't want to touch. Zero is "close enough", but that doesn't mean it's workable. Even if we round up, we're screwing over the pleyrs who can take things to four decimal paces. Generally, they're munchkins or power players looking for every last edge they can find. James McMurray is a perfect example: he says he does the math, showing that he wants that 0.0005 ess for something. |
If the original essence of 0.25 isn't cumbersome, then 0.0625 really isn't particularly either.
For my own part, yes, I find the merged essence rules infinitely more convenient and less annoying than the old bio shock crap. In both cases, you're making your body less human. Why not have a unified system to do it, instead of multiple ratings driven differently by multiple things, with entirely separate rules for what they do to you?
I have to admit, this entire discussion is making me agree more and more strongly with someone's comment before, that this is the point at which he'd tell his player "Get over it." If you object to SR4's rules that much, don't play it.
Posted by: ThreeGee Sep 13 2007, 05:46 PM
The words fuck off you dim wanker do spring to mind.
Posted by: ThreeGee Sep 13 2007, 05:46 PM
Thats aimed at Cain
Posted by: Aristotle Sep 13 2007, 05:49 PM
I don't round. I just cut everything off at two decimal places. Does it mean that a careful planner can pack a little extra ware into a character? Yeah... but my players were rarely that efficient, and I don't mind if some people seem to have a tiny bit more chrome than others.
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Sep 13 2007, 05:50 PM
In SR3 there was a little known rule that stated that you did, indeed, round Essence costs up to the nearest 100th (two decimal places). So that 0.0625 cost would actually be a 0.07 cost. This applied to adept powers as well if memory serves (though I think that rule had you round up to the nearest 0.25). I tried looking for a similar rule in SR4 without much luck, but it seems a very reasonable house rule to me if you really have a problem with it.
Personally, I don't see that much of a difficult change between two decimal places and four decimal places. It's only a perception problem, really, and one someone else already pointed out with their "just multiply everything by 10,000" example. Sure, it would be nice if everything was dealt with in whole numbers, but the game already goes to two decimal places so... how is 0.0625 that much more difficult again? Especially when it only shows up with a precious few implants that have an x.x5 Essence cost, none of which are all that fantastic.
Posted by: neko128 Sep 13 2007, 05:59 PM
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| Especially when it only shows up with a precious few implants that have an x.x5 Essence cost, none of which are all that fantastic. |
Orthoskin, Math SPU, Sleep Regulator, internal air tanks, cyber-gills; all very useful in their own ways. A bunch of non-full limb replacements (hands and half-arms/legs, for example), which - while you may not typically do as a voluntary procedure - are great for people with injuries. And, of course, someone will eventually remind you of cyber-breasts and cyber-penises, which are both 0.25 essence. And just to top it off, quite a few cyber-weapons of various types, though you typically see those paid for in capacity rather than essence.
Posted by: Aristotle Sep 13 2007, 06:05 PM
If folks want to insult one another please do it privately.
Posted by: James McMurray Sep 13 2007, 06:10 PM
| QUOTE (Cain) |
| Even if we round up, we're screwing over the pleyrs who can take things to four decimal paces. Generally, they're munchkins or power players looking for every last edge they can find. James McMurray is a perfect example: he says he does the math, showing that he wants that 0.0005 ess for something. |
Are you sure it doesn't just mean that I follow the rules and am not afraid of a little math?
Posted by: Tanegar Sep 15 2007, 02:37 AM
| QUOTE (neko128) |
| ...someone will eventually remind you of cyber-breasts and cyber-penises, which are both 0.25 essence... |
I know I'm going to regret asking this, but exactly what is "cyber" about breasts and penises? If biotech in 2070 can grow custom organs, why are we going to chrome for wangs and ta-tas?
Posted by: eidolon Sep 15 2007, 03:02 AM
| QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Sep 13 2007, 06:03 AM) |
| hmm, rocket powered cybertech anyone? |
http://www.dumpshock.com/wordpress/archives/2007/09/12/rocket-powered-cyberarms/
Posted by: neko128 Sep 15 2007, 03:20 AM
| QUOTE (Tanegar) | ||
I know I'm going to regret asking this, but exactly what is "cyber" about breasts and penises? If biotech in 2070 can grow custom organs, why are we going to chrome for wangs and ta-tas? |
Just because it's cyber, doesn't mean it has to be metal, just artificial.
And it's not my fault they were published in Augmentation.
Posted by: Hartbaine Sep 15 2007, 03:52 AM
Well, if you think about it since bioware costs essence now that means that any augmentation (even if it's cultured from your own tissue to prevent rejection) will cost you essence.
So if a shop teach cuts off a finger on accident, it spoils, but has a new one grown from his own tissue and replaced... voila! Essence is lost.
Honestly this is stupid, but the way the state it in the book makes it true. Even cultured bioware costs essence even though it grown from your own natural tissues. Kidney, heart, liver... any organ grown in a vat should cost essence. Why? Simple, it's not your natural organ, you weren't born with it, and doctors had to put it in, thus it costs essence, just like bioware. Even if you had it cultured from your own tissues. Sorry Mages... don't drink too hard, it might cost you later down the road.
I understand the logic mind you, Bioware is making the body do things that God(?) didn't intend for it to do, but I do not agree that it should cost essence. The old body index system was fine (to a point). I still use it and it permits characters to go 'all natura' and 9 times out of 10, while they may be able to throw down with a CyberedSam for the most part the CyberSam usually has a few distinct advantages. Fights are close, but fair.
Optional Rule (Hartbaine's Game): Body Index – Just like Essence the character has a Body Index of 6 (Oh no! One more Attribute! OMGWTFBBQ!) It works just like Essence, drop it as you buy it. You may not 'double dip' effects. If a piece of Cyberware emulates the effects of a piece of Bioware then you must decide which you would like (Cyber or Bio) you may not have both (GM may rule otherwise). Examples of non-compatible items are (but is not limited to):
1. Bone Density & Bone Lacing (both increase body, and grant physical damage in unarmed strikes, the ballistics and impact bonus from bone lacing I feel was not sufficient enough to merit bone lacing completely separate from bone density.)
2. Wired Reflexes & Synaptic Booster (the description clarifies this already, these are pretty much the same thing who are we kidding?)
3. Muscle Aug/Toner & Muscle Replacement (again, the rules clarify this for us)
Additionally Essence and Body Index are linked, like a Magicians Essence and their Magic Attribute, the more cyberware you have implanted the less 'meat' there is for the bioware to do its job. As Essence drops also reduce a character body index (rounding down to the nearest whole number). So if a character had simple datajack installed (5.9 Essence left) their body index is 5 (all the nemonic webbing across the brain that supports the DNI makes it difficult for other bioware to function properly).
Love it or hate it, that's the system that works for us. Magicians and Adepts still lose magic for Bioware (not that they should, they're not quite broken enough already as it is...) so it keeps everyone playing in their respective niche'.
On a side note... is the Hydraulic Jack system compatible with the Cyber Schlong? If so... it's head board breakin' time! Or maybe Cyber Jubblies where the nipples open like Irises and little Ocular Drones can hover out...
Or... or... maybe they just 'unscrew' and little mechanical spider legs pop out from under them and (BAM POW) you have Jubblie Drones... complete with firmpoints.
Can you imagine the screw ups at the local Patch n' Fix Clincs? A woman walks in for a memory upgrade and walks out with 36EE breasts.
I'll quit now... 
Posted by: DTFarstar Sep 15 2007, 04:17 AM
I would just like to chime in that while four decimal places may seem annoying at time, that is still early elementary school math so.... everyone should be able to do it, and for the most part in their head. Definitely on paper. If it annoys you, then round up to two, one, or no decimal places. Don't force your players to, but allow them to do it if they don't like math. In general I am my group's mathematician. Most of them can do it.... they just don't want to and know if they spit out the numbers I'll return the totals to them free of charge.
No, I'm not calling anyone stupid, just saying that it's not as bad as it seems at first glance.
Chris
Posted by: DTFarstar Sep 15 2007, 04:24 AM
I may be wrong, as I don't have Aug yet, but cloned replacements don't cost essence. Things that change the way the body functions cost essence. I mean, yeah cerebral boosters are grown from something that resembles your own tissue, but your brain wasn't built to have that much cerebral cortex around it. It takes a lot of rewiring to add that much matter, just because it comes from tissues very similar to your own doesn't mean it's not very disruptive to do. It is supposed to be a "delicate balance of body and mind required to channel mana" when you take someones' brain and add a hunk of tissue and re-route things so it's used in this and this process etc.... It is going to alter that balance some. Or at least I would assume it would.
Just saying, Cultured Ware isn't cloned, cloned is identical. Cultured Ware is grown to have similar proteins so your body won't recognize it as foreign. It isn't your own tissue, it is an augmentation for a reason.
Chris
Posted by: Cthulhudreams Sep 15 2007, 05:57 AM
| QUOTE (Hartbaine @ Sep 14 2007, 10:52 PM) |
| Well, if you think about it since bioware costs essence now that means that any augmentation (even if it's cultured from your own tissue to prevent rejection) will cost you essence. |
Cultured bioware isn't just grown from your own tissue - like you could with a cloned live r - instead, what cultured bioware is is your template modified with other stuff. So synpatic boosters are your nerve cells, pulled out, modified, then grown and re-implanted.
By contrast a cloned liver is just a bunch of your stem cells, pulled out, treated with a chemical trigger that makes them think they are now liver cells, then grown.
The difference is cultured bioware is your cells coached into doing something entirely novel, whereas clonal stuff is your cells coaxed into doing something they already know how to do.
Posted by: tyweise Sep 15 2007, 02:20 PM
Do Essence values ever have to be calculated on the fly?
It seems that all this math homework is getting done at character creation, or in down-time between runs when you get new 'ware implanted.
Neither situation requires the math to be done quickly, nor in your head. And it takes up another eighth of an inch (~0.3125 cm) on paper to fit in two more digits.
Posted by: eidolon Sep 15 2007, 02:27 PM
You're completely wrong and your argument is totally off base.
I write big.
Posted by: BishopMcQ Sep 15 2007, 04:10 PM
| QUOTE (tyweise) |
| eighth of an inch (~0.3125 cm) on paper to fit in two more digits. |
Very cute
Posted by: Cain Sep 15 2007, 05:31 PM
| QUOTE (tyweise) |
| Do Essence values ever have to be calculated on the fly? It seems that all this math homework is getting done at character creation, or in down-time between runs when you get new 'ware implanted. Neither situation requires the math to be done quickly, nor in your head. And it takes up another eighth of an inch (~0.3125 cm) on paper to fit in two more digits. |
Character creation is the big one. The number 1 reason for hating SR4 on RPG.net is the chargen system, which is widely considered to be more complicated than GURPS or Hero system... and both of those are universal systems, with a lot more choices than Shdaowrun could ever offer.
If one goal of SR4 is to bring in new players, why make it even more unfriendly to start playing?
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Sep 15 2007, 06:43 PM
| QUOTE (Cain @ Sep 15 2007, 11:31 AM) |
| If one goal of SR4 is to bring in new players, why make it even more unfriendly to start playing? |
Wait wait wait, are you trying to imply that this is a problem unique to SR4?
SR3: Standard grade Titanium Bone Lacing installed with the Essence Reduction surgical option resulted in a 2.1375 Essence cost, a 4-decimal place value just like all of the x.x5 implants (and there were a -lot- more of those then). And all from just one calculation.
Posted by: eidolon Sep 15 2007, 08:02 PM
| QUOTE (Cain) |
| Character creation is the big one. The number 1 reason for hating SR4 on RPG.net is the chargen system, which is widely considered to be more complicated than GURPS or Hero system... and both of those are universal systems, with a lot more choices than Shdaowrun could ever offer. If one goal of SR4 is to bring in new players, why make it even more unfriendly to start playing? |
Having seen the Gurps and Hero chargen sections, if not having read them to intimate familiarity, that makes me wonder if anyone whining about it has ever created a Shadowrun 4 character. Or one in any edition, for that matter. Or, on the flip side, if they've ever made a character in Rifts.
Whiners.
Posted by: Hartbaine Sep 15 2007, 09:12 PM
| QUOTE (Cain) |
| Character creation is the big one. The number 1 reason for hating SR4 on RPG.net is the chargen system, which is widely considered to be more complicated than GURPS or Hero system... and both of those are universal systems, with a lot more choices than Shdaowrun could ever offer. |
I can understand where basic math could be quite difficult for some.
"Here, you have 400 points, as you buy X take X away. Here is a list of what X costs..."
Now, the only thing that actually takes time in Shadowrun Character Creation is buying equipment. To get the right gear is sometimes takes a little time, but aside from that it's a snap.
To solve the time issue involved with buying gear (especially for new players) I've created equipment sheets that are broken down into archtypes very similiar to the way the book does it.
"Gear & Lifestyle (XXX,XXXÂ¥) (XXBP)"
List everything here.
I made a different list for each life style based on archtype so it reads like:
Street <Archtype>
Squatter <Archtype>
Low <Archtype>
Middle <Archtype>
High <Archtype>
Luxury <Achtype>
Since eveything is already calcualted (spent nuyen, BP costs, Essence, Magic, Spells Purchased, etc...) it helps to speed up the process if someone is looking to save some time at the gaming table.
Things are as simple or as difficult as we choose to make them, I've played GURPS and found the process on par with SR4s, and many other systems. It's all boring, I hate making characters simply because 1/2 way through the process I wanna be playing not making a character. Heh.
Posted by: Cain Sep 16 2007, 12:38 AM
| QUOTE (eidolon) | ||
Having seen the Gurps and Hero chargen sections, if not having read them to intimate familiarity, that makes me wonder if anyone whining about it has ever created a Shadowrun 4 character. Or one in any edition, for that matter. Or, on the flip side, if they've ever made a character in Rifts. Whiners. |
I've done all of them. I find SR4 to be the most complex. All the arbitrary caps, the lack of any coherent process, the piss-poor layout choices (who on earth puts 12 pages of Edges and Flaws in the *middle* of a chargen chapter?) the funky costs (first you multiply by ten, then by four, then by 5000?) the half-dozen different things you need to track (essence, Edge, magic/resonance sometimes, cash, stats, skills, etc, etc.)
| QUOTE |
| Wait wait wait, are you trying to imply that this is a problem unique to SR4? |
Not at all. That's why I referenced the two other major offenders, GURPS and HERO.
Posted by: eidolon Sep 16 2007, 03:31 PM
I don't dispute that there's a lot to keep track of. It's kinda inherent to how everything is tied in. Cyber affects atts affects magic affects etc., etc. I guess I never equated "takes some time" with complicated though (I guess part of that is that complicated has somewhat of a negative connotation to me, more along the lines of "hard"; denotatively, it is somewhat complicated).
After doing it a few times (in SR3; have only made one character in SR4 so I'm still finding it) you find your own "process". *shrug* Never really bothered me.
Posted by: Cain Sep 16 2007, 04:21 PM
I've made a few. The times involved ranged from several hours to several days. Each time with a calculator. Even with "easier math", it's still tedious and annoying.
I guess the cardinal sin is this: I hate to waste an entire game session generating a character, instead of playing one. Give me Savage Worlds or Wushu, where character generation is completed in five minutes or less (and offer as many options/a lot more action that Shadowrun does.) If you want a better system, then learn from the other systems out there, instead of.....no, I won't go there in this thread. Let's just say there's a difference between education and imitation.
Posted by: eidolon Sep 16 2007, 05:42 PM
Being familiar with both of those systems, I personally disagree that the characters have as many options as those given in SR. I'm not sure that it's really worth comparing them anyway, however, as the type of game (mechanically and otherwise) is vastly different. The "options" given a SR character pertain directly to the setting and mechanics of SR, whereas in a setting-not-included game like Savage Worlds the mechanics specifically don't directly relate to any given setting (unless you're reading a setting book, of course), and in a game like Wushu, well...
Yes, you could play a "cyberpunk meets magic" game using SW, and perhaps even Wushu, but it would hardly be Shadowrun to me.
But in the end, it's just personal taste anyway, and I don't think there's anything to be gained by every game trying to cater to every player out there.
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