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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Non Orks/Trolls speaking Or'zet
Posted by: WearzManySkins Sep 11 2007, 04:28 AM
OK in various previous editions of Shadowrun, speakers of Or'zet with out tusk implants and lower jaw restructuring, suffered a penalty in speaking Or'zet to those with the correct tusks and lower jaws.
So my initial penalty is a -2 dice to speaking Or'zet.
To have the tusk implants and lower jaw reconstruction is a Moderate Bio Sculpting, essence 0.1, cost 1,500 Nyen.
Voice Modulators would reduce the penalty to -1 dice if a recorded Ork/Troll speaker's voice is recorded to use.
Vocal Range Extender would negate the penalty all together.
Thoughts? inputs?
WMS
Posted by: Zhan Shi Sep 11 2007, 04:43 AM
Sounds good to me. In SR3, at least, the "Facial Sculpt" adept power could produce the changes neccessary to speak orzet.
Posted by: Glyph Sep 11 2007, 06:46 AM
If a voice modulator can do things like create perfect bird calls, I don't think a metahuman language would be that much of a challenge for it. I would treat the voice modulator the same as the vocal range extender - it would negate all penalties.
My feelings are mixed. It's a reasonable rule, but I think it would tend to deter most non-ork PCs from bothering to learn Or'zet - maybe a linguasoft when you absolutely have to meet the Johnson at the Big Rhino, but I wouldn't waste points learning a skill I am going to be penalized on.
Posted by: Aaron Sep 11 2007, 12:38 PM
I wouldn't think it would make it any more difficult to speak the language, just pronounce it. I mean, Stephen Hawking has profound difficulty speaking English, but he's quite fluent.
If I was the GM and a linguist,* I wouldn't penalize the use of the language. There would be an obvious accent, though, so I might penalize tests aimed at pretending to be a trog or talking to a racist trog.
*I don't study Linguistics professionally, but one of my degrees is in Linguistics, so that might be close enough.
Posted by: WearzManySkins Sep 11 2007, 05:11 PM
I would see no issue with someone with out the natural hardware, understanding the words being spoken, but since the hardware is not present, to me it would be more than just an accent issue.
As for Mr. Hawking I would see his use of his voice computer as a Voice Modulator, as per the description of same.
WMS
Posted by: WearzManySkins Sep 11 2007, 06:18 PM
@Aaron
The hardware part of speaking Or'Zet could have some real function in the language.
From what I have been told, some languages the voice pitch or tonal accents given to a word, can alter or change the meaning entirely.
"IF" that is true with Or'Zet, not being able to make the hardware tonal accents could make what you say very confusing.
Example crude as it is.
For simplicity sake the hardware part of the language is used making use of a kazoo, so when you are attempting to pronounce the words, a hardware equipped speaker makes kazoo sounds for tonal accents, such accents can make words change entire meaning. So a non hardware equipped speaker, tires to make the kazoo sounds for the tonal accents, but does not get close. So the non hardware equipped speaker is trying to say "Hello how are you?" but since the tonal accents are wrong it comes out as "You are one ugly Blank".
WMS
Posted by: Lagomorph Sep 11 2007, 06:32 PM
I'd negate the penalty if they took the orc poser negative penalty.
Posted by: Ancient History Sep 11 2007, 06:33 PM
"My advantageous mongoose masturbates with abandon over your mother's skeleton."
Posted by: WearzManySkins Sep 11 2007, 06:37 PM
@Logomorph
I agree, did not take that into consideration
@AH
Posted by: Kyoto Kid Sep 11 2007, 08:19 PM
| QUOTE (WearzManySkins) |
| From what I have been told, some languages the voice pitch or tonal accents given to a word, can alter or change the meaning entirely. |
...Hawai'ian is a good example of this.
For running a game set in a SF story I was writing that involved a Felinoid race (predominantly human looking but with subtle feline features), I had developed a language that was also based on various gestures and sounds unique to the species. Human characters would have no trouble learning the basic verbal component and even some of the body language. However the ear flicks, and whisker movement (they had these long whisker like lashes that grew from just below the eye and the eyebrow) not to mention vocalised purrs and hissing that carried the more subtle nuances of the language were impossible to mimic without some amount of reconstructive surgery. Here to the same word with a left ear flick could have a different connotation than with no gesture, or a right ear flick, or left whisker raised.
Fortunately the Sabrinno (the name of the race) were a fairly patient lot and were quite fascinated by Ll'an Ominatii (human ways).
Posted by: Tarantula Sep 11 2007, 08:49 PM
I've always wondered Kyoto Kid. How does a conversation for them work through a telephone (without any visual cues)?
Posted by: Naysayer Sep 11 2007, 08:51 PM
Cats are telepaths!
Posted by: Aaron Sep 11 2007, 09:30 PM
| QUOTE (WearzManySkins) |
| The hardware part of speaking Ar'Zet could have some real function in the language. |
I agree with everything you said except your premise. What hardware does an Ork or a Troll have that others lack that would be used to create phonemes that cannot be produced or approximated by non-trogs?
One of the languages I've studied is Xhosa. It uses clicks (three different ones, in fact). However, a person can substitute other consonants (two k's and a ch) and still be understood, albeit with an accent. Heck, the language's name is pronounced "Khosa" by folks who can't do the click.
Posted by: Moon-Hawk Sep 11 2007, 10:06 PM
| QUOTE (Tarantula) |
| I've always wondered Kyoto Kid. How does a conversation for them work through a telephone (without any visual cues)? |
Not that I know anything about KK's games, but as a general statement: You're asking how a conversation which normally depends on a lot of verbal and visual cues work when the visual cues are removed.
As an analogy, English depends on a lot of verbal cues (although not so much visual ones) Phone conversations work fine (although we still gesture, stupid humans) but a pure text conversation has information missing.
So for cat-people, or anyone with a LOT of body language in their communication, a phone conversation would likely be filled with a lot of misunderstandings, just like English speakers on the intarweb. And just like we invent text to convey what's missing (such as
or 
) they might need to incorporate words/sounds to help clarify subtle points, like a word/sound that means "insert whisker flick here to imply sarcasm"
Posted by: WearzManySkins Sep 11 2007, 10:20 PM
@Aaron
The hardware is the tusks that extend beyond the lips to stick out and the longer, larger lower jaw.
@KK another is the language of Thailand, from what I have been told. I also agree about feline communications, would include body gestures.
WMS
Posted by: Kyoto Kid Sep 11 2007, 10:39 PM
| QUOTE (Tarantula) |
| I've always wondered Kyoto Kid. How does a conversation for them work through a telephone (without any visual cues)? |
...not very well.
that is one of the methods used to... confuse a cat
Seriously...
[Moon-Hawk you are pretty close.]
...for voice only communication (which is only used in rare cases in the "current day" of the story) they developed a more abbreviated lingo that relies strictly on the verbal and hiss/purr sounds. A variant of this is used by the military and Sabrinno Prime Command units.
For Sabrinno, face to face communication is still favoured and respected. In their eyes, anyone who refuses to discuss a matter "in the flesh" (be it in person or via a visual link) is considered to be hiding something and treated with suspicion. This applies primarily to intra species communication as they realise other cultures are incapable of expressing the more subtle aspects of their language.
Posted by: Aaron Sep 12 2007, 02:35 AM
| QUOTE (WearzManySkins) |
| The hardware is the tusks that extend beyond the lips to stick out and the longer, larger lower jaw. |
I'll bite.* What phonemes would a Human be unable to approximate by jutting his jaw? Also, how do tusks allow a person to form a unique phoneme?
*No pun intended.
Posted by: Begby Sep 12 2007, 04:39 AM
The hard f sound could be more like a low train whistle.
Posted by: WearzManySkins Sep 12 2007, 06:08 AM
From AH's Or'Zet Codex web page
| QUOTE |
The original, shorter words of or'zat have been replaced by the longer words of Throalic-influenced or'zet. Or'zat is characterized by mostly one- or two-syllable words, while or'zet has a more complex grammar and longer words. Or'zat was best suited to pronounciation from someone with tusks, but the pronounciation of or'zat changed so that ujnorts could better speak it, resulting in innumerable mistranslation and mispronounciations (Cara Fard instead of Cara Fahd, for example). The "f" sound, when pronounced with tusks and the deep ork vocal cords, places the top lip on the bottom teeth. Taking the example word 'Fahd' from before, the proper pronounciation sounds something closer to 'Faauud,' rolling the sound. |
From the SR 4
| QUOTE |
Ork Poser Bonus: 5 BP Influenced by Goblin Rock or over-hyped orxploitation trends, an Ork Poser is an elf or human character who alters his appearance to appear as an ork. Various cosmetic biomods— tusk implants, steroids, larynx alterations, etc.—allow the character to successfully pass as an ork. Ork posers are an embarrassment to many orks, and an ork who discovers the secret may treat the character with hostility. Other orks, however, might be willing to let the character join the “family�—provided he passes an appropriate hazing ritual to prove his “orkness,� of course. An outed ork poser may also face stigma from other humans or elves as “race traitors,� if those humans/elves harbor any prejudice against orks. Only humans and elves may take the Ork Poser quality. |
Can a person with an unrepaired cleft palate, be understood speaking english, in most cases yes, but it will require some patience on the listener, and some understanding. Can said person speak you triple clicking language, again yes but requires more of the patience above.
WMS
Posted by: Prospero Sep 12 2007, 08:17 AM
Plus, Or'zet hasn't been around in the 6th World long enough for anyone to learn it as a 1st langauge. A few years of common usage isn't enough to build up a bunch of complex gestures or tonal inferences over a widely spaced community of speakers of other langauges to where there is one set pronounciation that is so strong that deviation from it creates major problems. Yeah, two Or'zet speakers could use the langauge to communicate, but if one was a native English speaker and the other was a native Vietnamese speaker, their accents are going to be really widely different anyhow. So what would it matter if that smoothie breeder over there doesn't pronounce his "Fahd" the way either of them do - neither of them say it the same way either.
You'd get funny looks, yeah, but I wouldn't give a penalty. I mean, people are used to how orks and trolls speak human langauges, even with all that 'extra' dental hardware. They sound odd, but they don't get penalties.
Posted by: Aaron Sep 12 2007, 12:01 PM
| QUOTE (WearzManySkins @ Sep 12 2007, 01:08 AM) |
| Can a person with an unrepaired cleft palate, be understood speaking english, in most cases yes, but it will require some patience on the listener, and some understanding. Can said person speak you triple clicking language, again yes but requires more of the patience above. |
How does that make it a penalty to using the language, and not a penalty to interacting with impatient people?
Also, I'm not so sure that the inability to produce sounds in one's throat or to put one's upper lip on one's teeth precludes a human being (who is capable of doing both) from making phonemes.
[EDIT: Now that I think about it and experiment a bit, I'm not sure how much different an 'f' between the lower teeth and the upper lip is from an 'f' between the upper teeth and the lower lip. I mean, they're both sounds produced by air forced between a lip and some teeth. If there was a profound difference, it would be audible in a person speaking English while hanging upside-down.]
I suspect you mentioned the Ork Poser Quality because of the mention of the laryngeal modification. Sure, an Ork has a larger larynx and is capable of producing a deeper sound, but if you're suggesting that a natural tonal language requires absolute frequency to convey meaning, you need to do some studying. Tonal languages use relative pitch; if this were not the case, either men or women would be unable to speak Mandarin. Or Sandawe. Or Navajo.
Posted by: Aaron Sep 12 2007, 01:24 PM
| QUOTE (Begby) |
| The hard f sound could be more like a low train whistle. |
Do you mean with two pitches? Hm ... maybe. Although I'm inclined to doubt it. It's not that it's not possible, it's just really hard. In order to generate a whistle, the air needs to be force out with enough pressure on one side of the lips or the other. To generate two whistles in the same mouth, one would need to balance the pressure between cavities to generate the two whistles.
Even then, getting two distinct pitches would be tricky. You're working with only one membrane (the lip) and one resonating chamber (the mouth) to produce the sound. Ever noticed that when you whistle, you vary the pitch with your jaw and tongue and not your lips? That's because the pitch of a whistle is dependent on the resonating chamber and not on what your lips are doing. So two whistles generated by passing air around a pair of tusks would have the same frequency. Human speakers can make a whistle sound during speech (there are a number of languages that use whistling; in fact, you can actually http://www.sil.org/mexico/chinanteca/sochiapam/13i-Conversacion-cso.htm, probably because it's a very tonal language). So now that I think about it, I doubt it could be done without two mouths.
But I reckon because of the difficulty of making the sounds, the Or'zet 'f' is more likely to sound like a fricative 'd' phoneme, like the Welsh 'll' phoneme, which can be reproduced by a human.
Posted by: MaxHunter Sep 12 2007, 11:49 PM
... because Welsh people are not human? 
[ducks and rolls]
Cheers,
Max
Posted by: Kyoto Kid Sep 13 2007, 12:22 AM
...wouldn't say that in front of Rhonabwry...
...wait, he's a GD & wouldn't care, maybe even take it as a complement...
oh...never mind.... 
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