Printable Version of Topic

Click here to view this topic in its original format

Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Magic in Our Schools

Posted by: Hartbaine Sep 16 2007, 09:42 PM

1. How common is magic in Shadowrun? Statistically how common are the Awakened 1 out of every 100, 1,000, 1,000,000?

2. How common is magic in your games? Besides the one mage that almost all groups should have (or adept) how often do your PCs see others working magic?

3. Do any of you believe that there is some sort of Sorcery classes offered in grade schools to introduce them to the hazards of paranormal critters or the awakened?

I know that there is college courses avail for the study of arcane, but would you think it would bleed into the lower grades?

In all fairness I'll answer my own questions, but I'd like to hear your opinions as well.

1. I honestly do not know. That's why I asked.

2. In mine, very rare. When the Runners see magic used by their opposition they immediately flip into 'oh shit' mode and begin to formulate a plan to get rid of that guy as quickly as possible. They fear it, and they should. I think if it’s too common, it loses its zazz.

3. I think so, yes. Starting in about Jr. High School, and any child who has displayed magical aptitude is more than likely sent to a 'gifted' class.

Discuss.

Posted by: Alex Sep 16 2007, 09:47 PM

1. Historically, the books have said 1 in 100; however, that seems to get more dilluted each time it is mentioned. First it was mages, then mages and adepts, then mages, adepts, and anyone with Awakened abilities.

2. A PC can expect magically resistance for AAA corp runs. After all, if all shadowrunning teams have a mage it would make sense that the corp would have at least one on staff.

3. You are assuming that public school still exists, which may or may not be the case. Does it exist in the barrens? No. The slums downtown? Maybe but probably not. The city core? Yeah, most likely. Corps? Why of course.

There's my 2.

Posted by: Gelare Sep 16 2007, 09:58 PM

1. I seem to recall that 1 out of every 1000 (thousand) people is a competent awakened person, which I interpret to be an adept, mystic adept, or mage with a Magic score of higher than 1 or 2. There's probably a number more who have low Magic scores.

2. Magic appears commonly in two places: research facilities (academic or corporate) and corpsec. Astral wards are all over the place, patrolling watchers are common enough, but having an actual security mage at a place is rareish. Now, on call, that's another matter. If an alarm sounds at a facility, whatever mage is on reserve duty for that place drops whatever he was doing and sends a spirit (a real one, that is, one with mental scores higher than 1 - anything that isn't a watcher) to scan things.

3. I'm willing to bet that public schooling still exists plenty. You have to have a SIN, no doubt, but there's no way the UCAS decided to ditch public schools. I think you're describing an Arcana class, but I wouldn't know since I've never read Street Magic - anyway, awakened children definitely get enrolled in special classes immediately, and I think most schools check for magical aptitude right around the age when people are supposed to awaken. Anyway, I think awakened people would be covered in History classes and the like, but awakened critters? They've got better stuff to cover (or so they believe).

So there ya go. It's true that magic should be feared by runners going up against it, but it sounds more common in the books than it does in your campaign.

0.02

Posted by: Hartbaine Sep 16 2007, 10:09 PM

QUOTE (Alex)

A PC can expect magically resistance for AAA corp runs. After all, if all shadowrunning teams have a mage it would make sense that the corp would have at least one on staff.

Oh, no doubt. I always assume that the more money a place has the greater chances for an awakened to be present (they prolly make pretty good money compared to average security just for being awakened). With their specialized skills it's obvious they can ask for more money and usually get it.

If the figure is 1/100 then that seems a little out of whack. Critters are one thing, but if 1/100 of the metahuman pop knows magic then that means in Seattle alone ther eare 30,000 SINed mages and 15,600 of them are working for corporations. Corps would have thousands of mages on call and really no fear of losing them, they'd be less of a commodity and practical sleeper security would be pointless since the awakened could be just as efficient and learn the same skills.

Who needs security patrols when you have 60 mages on duty? 30 in Astral Space and 30 more in heavy security armor sustaining Armor and Increased Reflexes through foci.

Most unawakened running groups would be toast in a heartbeat.

Posted by: Ancient History Sep 16 2007, 10:10 PM

QUOTE

1. How common is magic in Shadowrun? Statistically how common are the Awakened 1 out of every 100, 1,000, 1,000,000?

1 out of 100 metahumans (or a little more) is Awakened, whether they know it or not. That includes adepts, mystic adepts, full magicians, everybody with just a knack or astral sight, and aspected magicians of all stripes.

The number of non-metahuman magicians is unknown. Dragons appear to be at 100%, ghouls, vampires, wendigo and the other Infected seem more likely to be magically active, and no one knows for sure about centaurs, merrow, or nagas.

QUOTE

2. How common is magic in your games? Besides the one mage that almost all groups should have (or adept) how often do your PCs see others working magic?

Depends on the game. I've run relatively low-magic games where no member of the part was magically active, and I've run high-magic games where every member of the party was magically active.

I think SR4 is expanding the ability for groups to get a little magical edge or deal with magical threats even if they don't have a magician: quickened spells, anchoring foci (healing potion, anyone?), and magical compounds among other things.

QUOTE

3. Do any of you believe that there is some sort of Sorcery classes offered in grade schools to introduce them to the hazards of paranormal critters or the awakened?

Probably not sorcery, but as soon as magical talent manifests (usually around puberty, though sometimes it can be seen earlier) the kid is probably going to get a dozen offers from corps willing to pay for schooling.

Posted by: Alex Sep 16 2007, 10:12 PM

QUOTE (Hartbaine)

If the figure is 1/100 then that seems a little out of whack.

True. Gelare's statement about 1 in 1000 being competent is more in line with what I do.

Posted by: Aaron Sep 16 2007, 10:25 PM

QUOTE (Hartbaine)

1. Turn to p. 8, Street Magic.

2. About that.

3. Hm ... I seem to remember an adventure I ran for my group where they had to visit a school. Maybe I can find a link ... ah, http://www.digitalchangeling.com/gaming/session_notes/smark/061003.html. It fails to mention the classroom environs (ward), though, or the exercise the kids were practicing (watcher summoning).

Posted by: Dissonance Sep 16 2007, 10:55 PM

While I can't offer much help about the magic dealies, I can offer my knowledge from a previous SR3 book, Sprawl Survival Guide. In there was a good amount of information about the various kinds of school still in operation. Basically, if you wanted to have an education worth a damn, you'd go to either a private school or be homeschooled, what with the advent of cheap and immersive internets.

There were still public schools, and they were vastly unpleasant things that your average SINless kid could get into, on account of every warm butt in a seat being worth a certain amount of funding. And that the school would likely try and pull some strings for you and/or not really look too closely at that fake SIN you got for your kid in a box of cracker jacks.

Of course, this is information from SR3, so it may or may not be out of date. And it's apparently still going with the message that a public school is a vile, dangerous, and worthless place to be.

Y'know, I went to a public school, and it wasn't even remotely that bad. Maybe it's only really bad in big cities or something. Shrug.

Posted by: Kronk2 Sep 16 2007, 11:24 PM

Way I am thinking about it, basically 1/100 has a magic rating over say 3

Posted by: Thane36425 Sep 16 2007, 11:26 PM

The numbers have changed over time. In early editions it was closer to 1 in 1,000. Newer editions put it at closer to 1 in 100. I agree with some of the other posters that 1 in 1,000 is probably right for competent casters, which includes adepts and the rest. Those would probably be the ones who manage to take grades of initiation or have 5 and higher magic ratings, and are driven to increase their ability. The rest probably have low magic ratings, little training, etc. That could also include all the people who have magic but use it just enough to make a living and that's it.

In my games, magic was fairly common because, as shadowrunners, the characters would be more exposed to it. The every day person, however, would likely never see a real mage in action save for on the Trid. Want to have fun with the players? Have the bystanders to their next public gunfight duck for cover when the bullets start to fly, but run in a panic when the mage rips loose a spell or spirit.

Some of the older material stated that corporate grade schools had staff trained to watch for magical talent. If a child showed possibility, then a specially trained mage would come to examine the child. If they did have the Talent, they would be taken away to a magic school run by the corp. Public schools probably didn't have such things. A really talented child could stand out and a corp would be contacted and recruiters sent. Otherwise, the child might find a tutor, if they are lucky. If not, their talent may go undeveloped.

I really don't see public schools as having anything but basic magic courses, kind of a "this is what spellcasting looks like" kind of thing for the mundanes. Actual magic classes would be found elsewhere. Then again, each big city might have a "governor's school" for those with the Talent. Mages would be gathered there to teach them magic, and keep them away from other students, and where they can be watched. But I would think such a place would be heavily poached by the corps, which would make it unnecessary. Then again, various corps might actually fund such a place behind the scenes, then quiet bidding wars over the various students.

Posted by: Kronk2 Sep 16 2007, 11:27 PM

QUOTE (Dissonance)

Y'know, I went to a public school, and it wasn't even remotely that bad. Maybe it's only really bad in big cities or something. Shrug.

I attended public schools all my life (well except this one summer) I turned out ok. I mean there was a girl in my class who graduated valedictorian from Texas A&M's vet program. and managed to do so while being the hottest girl in my class.

Posted by: Gelare Sep 16 2007, 11:28 PM

QUOTE (Dissonance)

Cool info. I can tell you though, public schools are a lot worse in some places. My friend worked with Teach for America this past summer. I'm told the place was constructed more like a prison than a healthy school environment. The students didn't have textbooks because the bureaucracy was cluttered with half-wits, and they didn't have notebooks because they couldn't afford such opulent luxuries. With the chaos that happens in the Shadowrun timeline, countries splitting up all over the place and whatnot, I can't imagine things have improved much.

Posted by: Dissonance Sep 16 2007, 11:35 PM

Guess it really does vary from place to place. But, yeah, back to the magic thing? It's highly implied that if you're even remotely magical, you're basically going to get a buttload of offers from various parties. Especially corps. I can tell you right here that if a corp approached me while I was, say, sixteen years old, promising me a free education and a guaranteed position in their happy corporate family, I'd jump right the hell on it.

I seem to remember that shamans get a little bit shafted by the deal, because shamans have to take the concerns of their totem into consideration before getting any kind of 9 to 5 job. But this is less of a factor in SR4, what with the mentor spirit being downright optional now. Even so, I figure corp types would still rather have a hermetic.

Dunno about adepts. I'm not sure where sports are at in the 2070s. In SR3, there were still a /lot/ of sports that wouldn't even consider adepts for a professional sports team, if not banning them outright.

Posted by: Buster Sep 17 2007, 02:38 AM

Since there isn't any way to identify an adept or detect their powers, there isn't any way to ban them from anything.

Posted by: Ancient History Sep 17 2007, 02:43 AM

*cough* Astral perception! *cough cough* Magic Sense! *cough cough hack wheeze* results only achievable by augmented metahumans *cough hack wheeze hack urk aggh...

Posted by: Kronk2 Sep 17 2007, 02:48 AM

And what about specific programs between notable Universities? How would one codify the differences.
For Example. Texas A&M has a very militaristic point of view about their elite programs via the corps, and is academically focused on Agriculture, Veterinary Medicine, and poli-sci.

While Rice is much more technologically and research based in the pure sciences. (they have their own nanotech program no, which is awesome.!)

Where I am going, I guess is there could be university based traditions of magic.

Posted by: eidolon Sep 17 2007, 02:52 AM

QUOTE (Buster)

Since there isn't any way to identify an adept or detect their powers, there isn't any way to ban them from anything.

Adepts are easily identified as being awakened through assensing. And since it specifically says that an astral signature is left when a magical skill or ability is used, I would think that it would be fairly simple to single out instances during which an adept was using a power, such as if one were to use Attribute Boost, Enhanced Perception, Great Leap, or one of the other powers that would have effects directly applicable to playing any particular sport.

So sure, you might be able to get into sports as an adept, but the first time you lit up like a Christmas tree on the astral right before dunking, you'd be out.

edit: Heh, or what AH said.

Posted by: Cweord Sep 17 2007, 09:20 AM

My thought is corps being desperate for magical types, they would probably 'sponsor' magic classes in public schools, to help detect people with magical talent, so they can then offer them places in their corporate education programs and turn them in to nice little wage mage's.

Street Magic states that Magic Users are more valuable than Corp Execs.

I agree that people with some potential for awakened talent (knack, astral sight) might be as high in 1 in 100, but for rough figures I would use the magic rating squared for the number of hundred to 1

eg.

Magic 1 = 1 in 100
Magic 2 = 1 in 400
Magic 3 = 1 in 900 etc

Posted by: Cweord Sep 17 2007, 09:25 AM

Scratch that, if falls apart at really high levels, but the fundamentals u to 4 work

You could of course cube it

so you get

Magic 1 = 100 to 1
Magic 2 = 800 to 1
Magic 4 = 6400 to 1
5 & 6 should be special cases in them selves, but even on these figures would be extremely rare

Posted by: DTFarstar Sep 17 2007, 10:15 AM

Apparently you run a much lower power game than I do. In my games the average corpsec mage has a magic of 4-6 usually 5(4 is usually one with tech). In the game I play in I don't think I've run into a mage with a magic less than 6. Actually.... I know that's the case Force 12 spells tend to leave a mark on ones memory. Needless to say, counterspelling 4(spec: combat) has come in handy ALOT.

Chris

Posted by: Cweord Sep 17 2007, 10:48 AM

I have one mage in my group with a magic of 4 or 5, but if you look at the system saying average person stat is 3, then a Magic of 6 is world class level . . . .

The nice thing about SR4 is that fact that with magic you have somewhere to go, a starting character doesn't need a magic of 6, they can develop as they go.

Posted by: DTFarstar Sep 17 2007, 04:30 PM

Well, I doubt that chart was meant to apply to the Magic Attribute since you can with not too grievous an effort get a Magic of 8, which doesn't even appear there. I agree that characters with a magic of 3 or 4 are perfectly viable starting characters. However, usually the corpsec mages my groups run into aren't even remotely just starting at their jobs. Alot of them have initiated at least once as part of their job.

Of course, it helps that I have a real problem with the ratings being directly related to skill that way. Instead of everyone with a 6 in Longarms being a world class sniper, in my games that is reserved for people with a dice pool of 18+. Legendary is at least 24 dice.

Chris

Posted by: Cweord Sep 17 2007, 04:57 PM

but most of the boost in magic is going to be initiation, which whilst it increases the stat, that is done purely as a game mechanic rather than a true increase of the stat.

But I can see where you are coming from.

Posted by: darthmord Sep 17 2007, 06:32 PM

Don't forget though... SR4 Initiation only increases the maximum Magic attribute. It does nothing to the current value.

Non-Initiate:
Magic: 3
Initiate Grade: 0
Max Magic: 6

Grade 1 Initiate:
Magic: 3
Initiate Grade: 1
Max Magic: 7