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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Hacking and Stealth
Posted by: Dayhawk Sep 18 2007, 07:49 PM
It appears that as long as you have a level 6 steath program you have no problems getting into a system undetected.
If you have a level 6 firewall and the hacker is hacking in on the fly, then from what I understand you only roll the Firewall value against the stealth program.
What am I missing?
Thanks
Posted by: Tarantula Sep 18 2007, 08:19 PM
Actually, no. SR4, 221, "Each time you make a test to hack in, however, the target node also gets to make a free Analyze + Firewall (Stealth) Extended Test. If the node detects you—whether you hack in or not—an alert is triggered (see Intruder Alerts, p. 222)."
They get the analyze program as well, and its an extended test.
If you have 6 hacking, exploit, stealth, system, and response and are hacking a node with 6 firewall, system, and response then the tests go like this.
Hacking + Exploit = 12 dice for your exploit tests.
Firewall + System = 12 dice for the systems analyze tests.
Stealth = 6 for the threshold on the systems extended test to spot you.
Firewall = 6 for the threshold on your extended test to hack in.
First CT.
Hacker hacks, 12 dice average 4 hits, 4 !> 6 and so he isn't in yet.
System analyzes 12 dice average 4 hits 4 !>6 so the system hasn't spotted hacker yet.
Second CT.
Hacker hacks, 12 dice, 4 more hits, 8 > 6 and so he successfully hacks in.
System analyzers, 12 dice average 4 more hits, 8 > 6 so the system detects the hacker and raises an alert (+4 firewall) and may spawn IC/kick the hacker off etc.
Posted by: Kyoto Kid Sep 18 2007, 08:30 PM
...keep in mind that all your programmes run at a rating only as good as your commlink's Response. The highest Response you can start with at chargen is 5 (due availability). So, even if you have programmes rated at 6, they will only function as if they were rating 5.
Posted by: kzt Sep 18 2007, 09:15 PM
| QUOTE (Dayhawk) |
| It appears that as long as you have a level 6 steath program you have no problems getting into a system undetected. |
Per the fluff in the books it doesn't matter because 'they can recognize your distinct persona'. That vague sort-of quote came from System Shutdown. Don't ask me why they do this idiocy. My guess is it must be because in TRON everyone's "persona" was distinctive. So unless you ignore the sacred texts, you can't do anything sneaky.
Posted by: Malachi Sep 18 2007, 09:24 PM
| QUOTE (Kyoto Kid) |
| ...keep in mind that all your programmes run at a rating only as good as your commlink's Response. The highest Response you can start with at chargen is 5 (due availability). So, even if you have programmes rated at 6, they will only function as if they were rating 5. |
Your programs run only as good as your commlinks System. You can run as many programs as your Response rating simultaneously.
Posted by: Gelare Sep 18 2007, 09:25 PM
| QUOTE (Dayhawk) |
| It appears that as long as you have a level 6 steath program you have no problems getting into a system undetected. If you have a level 6 firewall and the hacker is hacking in on the fly, then from what I understand you only roll the Firewall value against the stealth program. What am I missing? Thanks |
I thought the same thing for a while too. If you have the same confusion I did, then what you're missing is this: the test for a node to detect you while you hack in on the fly is an extended test, just like it's an extended test for you to hack in. Your target number is the node's Firewall, and its target is your Stealth program.
So if you have a maxed out commlink hacking into a maxed out node, it's going to be actually worse than a 50-50 chance for you to hack in without being detected. Basically, what Tarantula said.
Now, when probing a system for weaknesses, you're pretty much completely in the clear. The node has to roll Firewall+Analyze with a threshold equal to your Stealth program when you enter, so with a Rating 6 Stealth, you're pretty much good.
Posted by: Kyoto Kid Sep 18 2007, 09:31 PM
| QUOTE (Malachi) | ||
Your programs run only as good as your commlinks System. You can run as many programs as your Response rating simultaneously. |
...but are not all commlink functions dependent on Response rating including system? I am currently at work & don't have my books/PDFs with me to verify this however this is the way we have been playing it.
Posted by: Moon-Hawk Sep 18 2007, 09:33 PM
Well, your system is limited by your response, but AFAIK it's not completely clear when they say that programs are limited by system, whether they mean limited by the original system, or the system-as-limited-by-the-response.
Posted by: Aaron Sep 18 2007, 10:34 PM
http://shadowrun4.com/resources/faq.shtml#6 you.
Posted by: Moon-Hawk Sep 19 2007, 02:31 PM
| QUOTE (Aaron) |
| http://shadowrun4.com/resources/faq.shtml#6 you. |
I'm sorry, maybe it's because I haven't had my coffee yet this morning (it usually is), but I'm a bit slow today. Could you highlight the section of the FAQ that addresses this question?
The closest I can find is
| QUOTE |
| Does a reduction in Response from running more programs then the System rating also result in a reduction in System? What happens if Response is reduced to 0? No, otherwise it's a cascading reduction (lower System lowers the amount of programs, which lowers your Response again, and so on). The overload from running too many programs only affects your Response. If Response reaches 0, your system is overloaded, and slows to a snail's crawl. Think Windows 98. |
Which is a very useful answer to a completely different question.
Help me, I need quotes or coffee, preferably both.
Posted by: Aaron Sep 19 2007, 02:53 PM
The question was whether the effective program ratings are reduced by a System rating that has been reduced by a Response drop caused by too many programs running, unless I'm very much mistaken. The FAQ states that the System rating does not drop as a result of a loss of Response. The implication is that if the System rating does not decrease, and the effective ratings of running programs are limited by System, then the ratings of running programs do not decrease as a result of a decrease in Response because the System rating has not decreased. Savvy?
Note: this post is best read out loud and very fast.
Posted by: Kyoto Kid Sep 19 2007, 02:58 PM
...I looked this up when I got home and in the Matrix chapter (forgot which page) it mentions that while programme rating is affected by System rating, System rating is limited by commlink's response rating. The only component that is not limited to Response is Firewall.
Posted by: Moon-Hawk Sep 19 2007, 03:08 PM
| QUOTE (Aaron) |
| The question was whether the effective program ratings are reduced by a System rating that has been reduced by a Response drop caused by too many programs running, unless I'm very much mistaken. |
You are correct.
| QUOTE |
| The FAQ states that the System rating does not drop as a result of a loss of Response. |
However, it does not address this issue:
| QUOTE (SR4 pg 213) |
| A System program is limited by the Response rating of the device it is on; a System run on a device with a lower Response rating functions at the Response rating instead. System serves as the limiter for the maximum rating a program can be run on that node (a higher rating program functions at the System rating instead)... |
Your issue refers to the number of programs, this issue is the ratings of programs.
Posted by: Dayhawk Sep 19 2007, 05:03 PM
I just went back and have no idea how I missed that Analyze is part of the roll or that it is an extended test.
Most of the time my hacker can probe the target, but last game he was forced to hack on the fly, and it was the first time we used that roll.
That's what happens when your reading quicky through the rules during the game.
Hehe, he didn't bother to correct me either. Oh well.
Thanks for the example!
Posted by: Aaron Sep 19 2007, 05:12 PM
Moon-Hawk,
Please read my post again, out loud. No, really, I mean it, because I suspect you may have missed something.
If it's still confusing, let me try an inductive example.
I've got a System 4, Response 3. So the System is effectively 3. My Rating 5 programs will run at Rating 3. I run three of them, so my Response drops to 2. However, the lowered Response does not affect the System, so it's still running at Rating 3. Since the System didn't drop, the program throttle didn't drop either, and so they're still running at Rating 3.
Am I more clear?
Posted by: Dayhawk Sep 19 2007, 05:28 PM
| QUOTE (Gelare) |
| Now, when probing a system for weaknesses, you're pretty much completely in the clear. The node has to roll Firewall+Analyze with a threshold equal to your Stealth program when you enter, so with a Rating 6 Stealth, you're pretty much good. |
I see and in this case it's not an extended test so getting 6 hits is much harder.
Ok so one more question:
Each node has a system rating. When a hacker is running inside a node, does that rating limit the program rating the hacker is using?
If so it seems like you could make a system nearly hack proof by having a Technomancer watching a system 1 node.
Posted by: Moon-Hawk Sep 19 2007, 05:31 PM
| QUOTE (Aaron) |
| I've got a System 4, Response 3. So the System is effectively 3. My Rating 5 programs will run at Rating 3. |
I understand what you're saying. But the quoted part: Do the rating 5 programs run at 3 (the effective System as limited by Response) or 4 (the actual System rating)? The FAQ doesn't say. The book could be interpreted either way. I'm inclined to agree that it is limited to 3 instead of 4, but one could make an argument that the programs should be limited by the "true" System rating of 4, rather than the "effective" System rating of 3, as limited by Response.
Stop bringing program load into this, it's obscuring the issue. There is no question about it, and no one is talking about it. So let's keep things simple and assume that there is only one program being run.
| QUOTE (Aaron) |
| The question was whether the effective program ratings are reduced by a System rating that has been reduced by a Response drop caused by too many programs running, unless I'm very much mistaken. |
Posted by: Malachi Sep 19 2007, 05:45 PM
@Moon-Hawk:
I'm with you. If you stick a System 4 on a Response 3 Commlink, then the effective System is 3 (limited by the "hard-coded" Response) and in that case I would rule (as a GM) that all program ratings are "capped" at 3.
Posted by: Moon-Hawk Sep 19 2007, 05:48 PM
@Malachi: Right. I just wanted to say that an argument could be made for doing it the other way, and that the FAQ was addressing a completely different issue.
And we all agree that if you run lots of programs, your matrix initiative goes down and little else happens; no recursive awfulness.
Although, I will say that if all the programs are limited to System, and System is limited to Response, then System has virtually no function and is contributing very little to the game. Might as well drop it completely and replace all of it's uses with Response.
Posted by: otakusensei Sep 19 2007, 05:52 PM
For GMs - Stick to the numbers and read the whole matrix section through a few times before starting a game.
For Players - Don't try to be so clever that you stop making sense and know that no matter how much money you spend on gear a technomancer can always thread and be better than you could even hope.
Posted by: deek Sep 19 2007, 06:17 PM
Moon-Hawk:
I certainly see how RAW can be interpretted either way. System seems to effect the following:
Limiter for max program rating
Number of active subscriptions
Number of active programs run before Response degrades
Matrix Condition Monitor (MCM)
I think that you are correct, if System is capped by Repsonse, in all instances, then yes, System is an irrelevent stat.
But, seeing from the FAQ, that System does not drop because of Response degradation, and it holds static, I don't see why everything around it would degrade as well. I mean, when your Response goes down, does it drop your Matrix Condition Monitor? Number of active subscriptions? No, because the FAQ already says it won't affect the number of active programs you can run before Response degrades, so by that token, nothing else should be affected.
So, in an example, with a System 4, Response 3 commlink, you are effectively running a System 3 (as Malachi stated). So the max program rating is 3, active subscriptions 3, if you ran a 4th program Response drops and your MCM would have 10 boxes.
But, running a System 4, Response 4 commlink, but having 5 active programs on it, thus dropping response to 3, you have a different story. System is going to still be a 4...so you can still run programs at 4, have 4 active subscriptions and MCM would still have 10 boxes.
There is not a blanket rule, as you have to know whether Response just happens to be lower than System out of the box, or if it has been degraded due to program load.
Posted by: Buster Sep 19 2007, 06:41 PM
| QUOTE (otakusensei @ Sep 19 2007, 12:52 PM) |
| ... no matter how much money you spend on gear a technomancer can always thread and be better than you could even hope. |
I haven't seen any evidence of that. Care to post a build?
Posted by: Moon-Hawk Sep 19 2007, 06:44 PM
Well, in my defense I did say virtually no function. 
I know it does a few things, but I still question whether System is "pulling its weight" in the rules, in terms of how much it really contributes to the game vs the extra bit of complexity it adds. Granted, it doesn't add much complexity, but the very limited list of things it is responsible for could easily be absorbed by other things.
Posted by: deek Sep 19 2007, 06:54 PM
| QUOTE (Moon-Hawk) |
| Well, in my defense I did say virtually no function. I know it does a few things, but I still question whether System is "pulling its weight" in the rules, in terms of how much it really contributes to the game vs the extra bit of complexity it adds. Granted, it doesn't add much complexity, but the very limited list of things it is responsible for could easily be absorbed by other things. |
Well, Signal only does one thing:)
Posted by: Malachi Sep 19 2007, 06:55 PM
| QUOTE (Dayhawk) |
| It appears that as long as you have a level 6 steath program you have no problems getting into a system undetected. If you have a level 6 firewall and the hacker is hacking in on the fly, then from what I understand you only roll the Firewall value against the stealth program. What am I missing? Thanks |
Getting back to the OP here, I will add this: don't forget about Account Level. Hacking against a threshold of just Firewall only gets you User access, which can't do very much. A Hack will almost always want Administrator access, which means they are trying to hit Firewall + 6, while the Node only has to reach their Stealth threshold. Also, remember that when Hacking into a "generic electronic device" (ie. cars, door locks, most people's Commlinks), the Hacker must get an Admin account.
This is why I don't mind Hackers that "much" their "breaking in" dice (full VR, hot-sim, Code Slinger) because most of the time the odds are tipped against them! My group's Hacker set off an alarm Hacking a Rating 3 Maglock, and he was throwing 14 Dice at it. He needed 3 tries to get 9 hits (which is spot on average) and it got lucky with 1, 1, then 3 hits.
Bottom line: Hacking on the Fly is hard to do quietly!
Posted by: deek Sep 19 2007, 07:08 PM
| QUOTE (Malachi) |
| Getting back to the OP here, I will add this: don't forget about Account Level. Hacking against a threshold of just Firewall only gets you User access, which can't do very much. A Hack will almost always want Administrator access, which means they are trying to hit Firewall + 6, while the Node only has to reach their Stealth threshold. |
I disagree with that, just for the fact that I am much more comfortable getting quick access (i.e. USER Level) to get in the system, then take my chances hacking from there against the system, then risking ADMIN access from the start.
I don't think I have yet seen the hacker in our group get ADMIN access on the fly without setting off an alarm.
Why not get your USER access to get in, then hack from there? Heck, you could even hack a backdoor and log back in with ADMIN.
Posted by: Tarantula Sep 19 2007, 08:20 PM
Technos often can hack in on the fly to admin without being detected. All they need is stealth 6 threaded to 12 and a sprite to maintain that thread for them. Oh, and exploit 6 with decent skills to max.
Not hard to thread up to 12, and then use first aid (with diagnostics from machine sprite) to heal away all that stun damage.
Posted by: Dayhawk Sep 19 2007, 08:53 PM
Sorry I probably should have made a new post for this one. But here it is anyways.
1)
| QUOTE (Dayhawk @ Sep 19 2007, 12:28 PM) |
| Each node has a system rating. When a hacker is running inside a node, does that rating limit the program rating the hacker is using? |
To clarify: So the hacker in my campaign is the normal not Techno kind. If he hacks into a node with a System rating of 3, do his programs act as if he is level 3 or level 5 as per his comm System and Response.
2)
| QUOTE (Dayhawk @ Sep 19 2007, 12:28 PM) |
| If so it seems like you could make a system nearly hack proof by having a Technomancer watching a system 1 node. |
To clarify: If it does then it seems like he could never break into a system which has a node rating of 1, and a Technomancer guarding it. Since the Technomancer is not limited to the node rating.
Thanks for the help.
Posted by: deek Sep 19 2007, 08:56 PM
| QUOTE (Dayhawk) | ||
Sorry I probably should have made a new post for this one. But here it is anyways. 1) So the hacker in my campaign is the normal not Techno kind. If he hacks into a node with a System rating of 3, do his programs act as if he is level 3 or level 5 as per his comm System and Response. 2) If it does then it seems like he could never break into a system which has a node rating of 1, and a Technomancer guarding it. Since the Technomancer is not limited to the node rating. |
AFAIK, only your Agents are limited by a node.
Technically, your persona and all programs are running off your own System and Response (i.e. your commlink).
So:
1) His programs will be rated 5, per his comm System and Response.
2) See #1. Note, that if he uploaded any Agents into that node rating 1, they would be dropped down to an effective rating of 1, as would any programs you gave it.
Posted by: Moon-Hawk Sep 19 2007, 08:56 PM
A hackers programs are running on their commlink, and thus are limited by the link's ratings. Just because the hacker has their icon on a node, doesn't mean it's running the software.
My "icon" would appear on the Dumpshock website/node, but my computer/commlink is still what's actually running browse/firefox.
Posted by: Dayhawk Sep 19 2007, 09:07 PM
Got ya!
Thank you very much. I have read the book cover to cover probably 4 times now and it seems like I get more confused everytime I do so.
Posted by: laughingowl Sep 19 2007, 09:45 PM
As a note back to the system / response caveat.
My take on RAW + FAQ:
System is capped by response.
System 6 on a Response 3 deck becomes system 3 (if nice, or just doesnt work if mean).
However, degredation is NOT factored in.
So a System 6 Response 6 rig...
When it runs 7 programs becomes:
System 6 Response 6 (5).
The 'system' is still 6 (the actual system, limited by the base response)... 'response' does go down, as more apps are running on the system, but it is still a rating 6 system... (it just is slugghish).
Posted by: otakusensei Sep 20 2007, 02:49 PM
| QUOTE |
| So a System 6 Response 6 rig... When it runs 7 programs becomes: System 6 Response 6 (5). |
I thought this read that every time you ran a number of programs with a total rating equal to your response, not a number of programs equal to your response. The way it's written here it seems like you could run 6 rating 6 progs without worrying.
Also on the techno build, it's just a fact. A techno with a resonance of 4 can tread a complex form up to 8, 5 to 10 and 6 to 12. While it's harder to advance because you have to spend karma, but it basically makes you unstoppable. Not to mention all the nice little techno tricks you get by being a resonance being, like covering your tracks so only another resonance being can find the trail.
Read Emergence for a better idea of what they were shooting for with technomancers. A lot more made sense to me after reading the fluff. In game I've been able to walk the most protected commlinks as a technomancer. I can generally get user access on a system in two tries, even if it's on alert. Not that hackers don't have their place, technos are rare after all and in a class all their own once they start threading. That is their limiting factor however and any magic user will tell you it's enough to make you think twice before pushing your matural abilities. Sprites are bad ass as well, but cost you more than agents. Personally my techno has a few commlinks on hand to provide cheap labor.
Posted by: Tarantula Sep 20 2007, 02:54 PM
Yes otaku, you can run 5 rating 6 with no problem at all. And 6-11 with only a -1 response hit.
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