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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Grenades exploding on impact

Posted by: OurTeam Nov 21 2003, 08:34 PM

One of my players wants to outfit his grenade launcher with grenades that explode on impact, instead of bouncing nearby and then laying there till the next Initiative Pass or the end of the Combat Turn. I find on-impact as an option for Hand Grenades (p.282) but I don't find it for mini-grenades. Is this in any of the rule books? Do you use something like this in your game? Any house-rules you've imposed?

Posted by: BitBasher Nov 21 2003, 08:36 PM

Nope, nothing canon about them working like that. Keep in mind that if you use them that way, the NPC's will use them that way also and this will DRASTICALLY increase the deadliness of grenades.

Posted by: TinkerGnome Nov 21 2003, 08:43 PM

The closest you get is the air-timed mini-grenades through the grenade link and smart link system.

Posted by: Siege Nov 21 2003, 09:08 PM

Actually, check the BBB of SR, page 118.

Second column under "Grenade launcher minimum range"

QUOTE

They do not detonate if they hit anything before taveling five meters -- a safety feature in case of accidental misfire. Disarming this safety feature requires a simple adjustment to the weapon, outside of the Combat Turn.

Which, to my mind, means that a mini-grenade can be set to detonating on impact.

Also, look at the description under minigrenades:

BBB, page 282: paragraph under "Mini-grenades"

QUOTE

This means that they have a minimum range and cannot be manually armed and thrown, unless the safety feature is overriden with an Electronics B/R (6) Test (base time 5 minutes).

Between these two quotes, I'd say a character could tweak his launcher and grenades to operate on an "impact-detonate" basis. Although I'd be interested in the kind of damage code a target would get from being hit with an undetonated grenade. Besides "gawddamn ouch!"M.

You might require a grenade launcher B/R skill if he wants to alter the weapon, although you can make a case for sticking with Electronics B/R for both the launcher and the ammo.

-Siege

Edited: Bloody typo

Posted by: godboyimmaculate Nov 21 2003, 09:53 PM

Didnt Arnie do that in T2? He was shooting the swat guys with teargas grenades at point blank range into thier bulletproof vests.

Ouch.

Posted by: Backgammon Nov 21 2003, 10:04 PM

Do mini-grenades even bounce? I think they always explode on impact... Altought i'm very not sure

Posted by: Siege Nov 21 2003, 10:12 PM

Back has a good point -- insofar as I know, you roll scatter for thrown and launched grenades to determine where the weapon lands.

However, scatter refers to the drift of the launched grenade and relative inaccuracy of the weapon -- it doesn't imply a bounce.

-Siege

Posted by: Frag-o Delux Nov 21 2003, 10:16 PM

I would say you have to choose which grenade you want airburst or impact burst, maybe in 2060ish they can be both.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/40.htm

An airburst grenade doesn't have an impact fuse, and an impact grenade doesn't have a proximity fuse. But I can see in the future both being incorporated into the same grenade.

Posted by: The Jopp Nov 21 2003, 10:20 PM

Page 282 Shadowrun 3

"Hand Grenades
These grenades are small, self-contained packages of explosive, timer and detonator. They may be set to explode on impact, or any time from 2 seconds to 2 minutes."

Now, how does the above statement work with the rule that all grenades detonate in the next combat phase?

According to the above statement you can have a grenade going off after 60 combat turns.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 21 2003, 11:21 PM

I think that's an abstraction of the time the grenade spends in the air for impact-detonation.

~J

Edit: and it's only 40 combat turns.

Posted by: Dogsoup Nov 21 2003, 11:28 PM

QUOTE

I think that's an abstraction of the time the grenade spends in the air for impact-detonation.

What he said.

Posted by: Tziluthi Nov 23 2003, 01:28 AM

Ah, you can probably play the impact detonation grenade like a standard gunshot. That is, you roll your skill (Launch Weapons or Assault Rifles) to hit, and the opponent can roll to dodge. The only difference is that if you miss, or they dodge, then you'd have to determine scatter. I'd recommend using the normal rules for scatter, just that you couldn't adjust it with successes. For damage, I'd use the optional explosives staging rules, for which you use half of the grenade's power (rounded down) against TN4, two successes raise the damage level by one.

Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Nov 23 2003, 03:27 AM

In the case of a dodge, I would suggest counting the number of dodge successes past the hit successes on an inverted scatter chart starting at 1 meter. This way, the dodger has a good reason to throw a lot of dice into the dodge, as it means they scatter out of the area of effect.

Posted by: Fix-it Nov 23 2003, 03:32 AM

I need http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/40-can.htm

Posted by: Siege Nov 23 2003, 03:36 AM

Hah! I want to see the 40mm shotgun damage.

-Siege

Posted by: moosegod Nov 23 2003, 05:36 AM

We were playing Systems Failure and a group member had a Mark 19. He just carried it around like an HMG until we realized the weight...

Posted by: paladin Nov 23 2003, 07:39 AM

QUOTE (moosegod)

We were playing Systems Failure and a group member had a Mark 19. He just carried it around like an HMG until we realized the weight...

What, it's lighter than Mother Deuce?

And I never liked the idea that a launched grenade could be thrown back. When I have the option, I like to house rule that the delay between hitting and detonating is time of flight, ie, the delay of one initiative pass or end of round before detonation still exists, the grenade just isn't at the impact spot to throw back.

Posted by: Crusher Bob Nov 23 2003, 08:31 AM

Iirc , the impact fuses on 40mm (launched) granades are activated after the granade has rotated a few times (the grenade is spin-stabilized in flight). As for hitting someone with the unarmed grenage maybe 5 to 7M (stun). After the fuse is armed, an impact will set it off.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Nov 23 2003, 09:37 AM

I never bothered with that mininades going off in the next Init Pass crap. Unless we're talking about a very large, long-range arc, any nade from a GL will go off immediately, just like gunfire, in my games.

Yeah the Mk19 is lighter than the M2 (33kg vs 38kg), but that's still more than twice as heavy as the RPK HMG in the BBB.

Posted by: mfb Nov 23 2003, 12:22 PM

i've seen a 40mm grenade go through an inch of plywood. 5 to 7M stun seems a bit weak, to me.

Posted by: snowRaven Nov 23 2003, 12:34 PM

In fact, there IS something canon like that - just like TinkerGnome said: Air-timed Minigrenades!!!

(pg.32 of CC)
"Grenade Link
This grenade launcher accessory uses the distance to a target determined by a range finder and programs the mini-grenade to explode in the air after it has travelled a number of meters equal to the target distance. This automatic setting reduces a launched mini-grenade's scatter from 3D6 to 1D6. All mini-grenades can be timed in this manner. Air-timed mini-grenades explode in the Combat Phase in which they are launched."

While not exactly exploding on impact, these are actually better since they explode at the range of the target, immediately. This mean that if you get 0 successes the grenade explodes within 6 meters from the target, with one success within 0-2 meters, and with 2 or more successes you have a dead-on hit. (Remember that you reduce scatter by 4 meters per success)

This does, however, require a launcher equipped with both a range finder/smartlink combo and a grenade link - again as TinkerGnome pointed out.

Simply resolve it like you would a regular shot, and apply the net successes to reduce scatter. If the dodger receives more successes than the attacker, either ignore them or apply them to the damage resistance test as if he had dodged against the blast.

Posted by: spotlite Nov 23 2003, 12:50 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't it say somewhere that if you miss with a smartlinked weapon it doesn't fire? I'm getting that I think from the description of walking autofire between targets and how smartlinks don't waste ammo. It doesn't say anything specific I don't think about normal fire, but by logical extension it seems to fit. imho anyway.

What I'm getting at is that if this holds true, with 0 successes from the smartlinked rangefinder mini-grenade launcher the weapon wouldn't fire, so the grenade therefore wouldn't scatter. But if you got a single success it would scatter by 1d6m before going off in the same phase as it is launched.

Posted by: Jetmaster Nov 23 2003, 05:33 PM

IIRC the weapon does fire, but the characters aim (and the smartlinks ballistics trajectory calculations) are so off that the weapon will (typically) have no effect on the target, because it landed so far off where you intended to put it. You can get lucky with scatter, but thats rare.

Oh, and doesnt the amount of successes reduce the scatter? Thats how we've been running the gernade rules, and it seems to work fairly well.

Posted by: tisoz Nov 24 2003, 10:59 PM

QUOTE (spotlite)

Characters miss with smartlinked weapons all the time. No successes doesn't mean the weapon doesn't fire. The reason no shots are fired between targets when walking fire is because the character has sent the signal not to fire via the smartlink.

Posted by: Lilt Nov 24 2003, 11:35 PM

QUOTE (Hand Grenades @ P282, SR3)

These grenades are small packages of explosive, timer, and detonator. They may be set to explode on impact, or at any time from 2 seconds to 2 minutes.

Emphasis mine.

As you don't otherwise wait an initiative pass for throwing weapons (knives, Shiruken, ETC) to hit, I'd say they could be set to go off immediately.

Posted by: Crusher Bob Nov 25 2003, 06:09 AM

QUOTE (mfb)

i've seen a 40mm grenade go through an inch of plywood. 5 to 7M stun seems a bit weak, to me.

6M is around the same 'level' of damage as a 'pretty strong' person (str 4) hitting you with a bat/hammer/etc (Club Str +2 M stu).

Posted by: spotlite Nov 25 2003, 02:01 PM

QUOTE (tisoz @ Nov 24 2003, 10:59 PM)

QUOTE (spotlite @ Nov 23 2003, 07:50 AM)

Fair enough. I accept that its a house rule, but I'm gonna keep it in our game purely for cool factor! I should expand slightly and say that a successful dodge does in our game mean that the weapon fired, its just that the target got out of the way. Its just that we sort of treat a failed attack roll as the smartlink's safety features taking over to prevent collateral damage.

But thinking about it, I might well make it so those safety's can be disengaged for those especially unscruplous runners or body-count-stipulated runs...

Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 25 2003, 03:10 PM

..........Unless there's a spirit Movement power involved, if someone dodges that means the weapon wasn't aimed at them when it was fired. They do not "get out of the way".

~J

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Nov 25 2003, 03:23 PM

Hey hey hey, it can take a very long time for a bullet to fly to its target. It easily takes 0.1 seconds or longer for an assault rifle round to get to 100 meters. I'm sure the Maximum Initiative character template (Night One + edges + cyber + bio + spells + loads of drugs) could get well out of harm's way in that time...

And look at the Governator in the Eraser, he dodges projectiles traveling at light speed after they've been fired. And he doesn't even have Wired Reflexes.

Posted by: spotlite Nov 25 2003, 04:46 PM

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)

My detect sarcasm spell is twinkling...

I accept what you're saying, but by that argument you may as well ignore the dodge rules completely for firearms. It doesn't put the target number to hit up, the hit is already rolled. The dodge also counts toward the soak, meaning that as far as SR is concerned, you DO dodge bullets after they leave the gun. Damn, but shadowrunners are fast...

Or have I misinterpreted yet again?

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Nov 25 2003, 04:58 PM

I consider "dodge" to be more "tactical positioning", and trying to evade potential gunfire. That of course breaks down when people get to decide how many CP dice they roll to dodge some specific attack, but it's a semi-plausible explanation/excuse nevertheless.

And there's no misinterpretation here, canon doesn't say that characters do or do not consciously dodge incoming bullets after they've been fired, AFAIK.

Posted by: Siege Nov 25 2003, 05:04 PM

It's not dodging the bullet per se but dodging the shooter -- the idea is to not be in the area the shooter thinks you are when he squeezes the trigger.

1. See
2. Coherent thought
3. Squeeze trigger (not jerk)
4. hope the target hasn't moved in this sequence
5. hope the target wasn't in mid-motion during this sequence

It's always harder to hit a moving target and dodging in the SR context is "oh god, he's shooting...run! Run now!"

If you want to be nasty, assign a penalty to a shooter if he wants to be able to dodge instead of taking a breath and lining up a shot.

That's the difference between combat shooting and range shooting (or so I've been told).

-Siege

Posted by: Foreigner Nov 28 2003, 05:14 PM

I recall reading somewhere (a publication relating to military equipment, I think; sorry I can't be more specific, but it was quite a while ago; I'm not even certain I still have the book) that the M-26A1 hand grenade (current U.S. military issue; its predecessor, the M-26, replaced the World War II-issue "pineapple" just prior to the beginning of the Korean War) is available with EITHER a TIME fuse or an IMPACT fuse, and either WITH or WITHOUT a safety clip (colloquially called a "spoon", intended to prevent the weapon from activating prematurely after the safety pin has been pulled).

According to an episode of THE ROCKFORD FILES which I saw several years ago (and again recently in reruns), the only difference between the two is that the M-26 used a SEVEN-second gunpowder cord time fuse, while the M-26A1's fuse would burn for only FOUR seconds {however, since it was a TV show, I'm not certain if the information was correct, and I have been unable to confirm it via other sources}; the idea was to keep the grenade's intended target from throwing it back at the user).

My point is that the basic design of our current U.S. military issue hand grenade is now approximately fifty years old, if not older. Given the current state-of-the art in ruggedized electronics (the latest CASIO "G-SHOCK" wristwatch is an example), I see no reason why someone couldn't develop a ruggedized electronic timer for a hand grenade *NOW*--high cost is probably the main reason no one has done so.

However, in the SHADOWRUN timeline (53-54 years from now, I think it is, if you start from the beginning), I would think that such a technological breakthrough would be relatively simple, given their advances in electronics design as compared to ours. Pen-sized electronic timer/detonators for explosives exist TODAY, and can be preset to detonate the explosives at any time from ONE SECOND to ONE YEAR (well, technically, 364 days, 23 hours, 59 minutes, 59.9 seconds, but I'm not going to quibble) in advance of the planned time of detonation. Who's going to say that SR hand grenades don't have that kind of smart timer built into them?

I know *I'M* not.

Just a little food for thought, Ladies and Gentlemen.

--Foreigner

Posted by: spotlite Nov 28 2003, 05:19 PM

Makes sense to me. But I never had a problem with them going off on impact if required anyway, so long as the person firing had a smartlink and rangerfinder setup. But its interesting reading.