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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Few Rules Clarification

Posted by: Dende Nov 21 2003, 09:32 PM

Regardless of my massive qualms with the computer and matrix systems...which I will leave fully aside...
I have a few questions.

Hardened Armor
How EXACTLY does this work? The book makes it seem like with a +4 weapon focii (7m base) dealing 13D(from staging up) I can't hurt hardened with 7 impact... Is this accurate? What does it take to deal damage to hardened armor, do you HAVE to have a base damage greater than the Hardened armor level?

2Handed Weapon fighting
Again the way I read the book, I took a 6pt 2handed fighting edge, meaning I don't have to have an offhand weapon skill to go 2 handed. But, it only increases the die I roll to hit by half. Does this mean I don't get 1.5 power, only 1.5 die(like I have a 6 skill in edged weps, meaning I roll 9 die with 2 weps, they are both 7m, meaning that's it?)

Weapon Focii
The level of a focii does what exactly? the book is kinda vague there. It seems that for like, a level 3 focii, you get 3 more dice to roll when using that weapon, after you bond with it, Again, no power increase?

Degradation
All armor degrades? Always when an M, S, or D is taken, it degrades? Only when the weapon power is double? Natural weapon power, or including staged up?

I think that does it for questions for now. I have high hopes someone here can clear up my confusion with these rules.

Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Nov 21 2003, 10:42 PM

QUOTE (Dende)

If the TN to be resisted is less than or equal to the hardened armor rating, there is no effect. In melee, the rules indicate that the power level is increased with excessive successes, so you just need to roll really well.

QUOTE

2Handed Weapon fighting
Again the way I read the book, I took a 6pt 2handed fighting edge, meaning I don't have to have an offhand weapon skill to go 2 handed. But, it only increases the die I roll to hit by half. Does this mean I don't get 1.5 power, only 1.5 die(like I have a 6 skill in edged weps, meaning I roll 9 die with 2 weps, they are both 7m, meaning that's it?)

The 1.5 power is only explicitly stated for multiple spurs, hand razors, or other such weapons. The dice bonus requires either ambidexterity or an off-hand weapon skill to use. I suspect that the 6 point edge you mention is ambidexterity, meaning 9 dice at 7M (based on skill alone)

QUOTE

Weapon Focii
The level of a focii does what exactly? the book is kinda vague there. It seems that for like, a level 3 focii, you get 3 more dice to roll when using that weapon, after you bond with it, Again, no power increase?

You get extra dice equal to the force of the weapon focus, it pierces immunity to normal weapons, and can bypass regeneration.

QUOTE

Degradation

An optional rule, in the CC, don't remember the page number.

Posted by: OurTeam Nov 21 2003, 11:22 PM

QUOTE (Dende)

Degradation
All armor degrades? Always when an M, S, or D is taken, it degrades? Only when the weapon power is double? Natural weapon power, or including staged up?

Armor degrading is an optional rule. (Cannon Companion p. 96) The GM decides whether to use this rule as is, use it in a modified form, or whether to ignore it.

It affects regular Ballistic and Impact Armor, Hardened Armor, and Vehicle Armor, but not critter armor.

Yes, it only happens when the character takes physical damage of M or greater.

No, the weapon power doesn't have to be double the rating of the armor. If the weapon power is equal to the armor rating the armor loses 1 point. If the weapon power is 2x the armor rating then the armor loses 2 points. For 3x, a 3 point loss.

The rule says to compare with the "Power of the Attack", so yes, I would use the staged-up power, but that's just my interpretation.

The rule doesn't indicate that a Ballistic attack will degrade both Impact and Ballistic ratings, but that is the way we play it in my campaign. When the character has layered armor, we choose to apply the degradation only to the outermost layer that is still intact. The rule doesn't indicate whether, on subsequent attacks, the comparison of powers should use the original rating of the armor or the reduced rating of the armor. It's a GM call. In our game we use the original rating.

Here is a link to more information about http://invision.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=1720 from a couple weeks ago.

Posted by: Dende Nov 21 2003, 11:22 PM

QUOTE

The 1.5 power is only explicitly stated for multiple spurs, hand razors, or other such weapons.

So I am to presume that my ninja(imagine Taki from Soul Calibur) using 2 long style daggers(possibly wagasishis) does not get a power bonus?
Does this mean the thought path for explaination is that the extra .5 die(from skill) means i never hit with both at the same time or what? It seems never 2 7Ms nor 9M or 10M to account for 2 weapons, is this really right? Only 9 die for 7M?

Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 21 2003, 11:24 PM

QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm)

I'm pretty sure this isn't accurate; I'll check, but I think it's explicitly stated that the weapon has to have power greater than the armor rating before any modifications (unless it's a firearm with AP/AV rounds).

~J

Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 21 2003, 11:26 PM

QUOTE (Dende)

QUOTE

The 1.5 power is only explicitly stated for multiple spurs, hand razors, or other such weapons.

Yes, that's entirely accurate. Your second weapon doesn't actually matter; you can be a Troll using a halberd in one hand and a pocket knife in the other and you still get half your pocket knife dice added. The point is that the expanded versatility of attack options increases the likelihood of your getting something past the opponent's defenses, or something like that.

~J

Posted by: BitBasher Nov 21 2003, 11:27 PM

Combat in shadowrun is abstract, you never hit twice, because one "attack" is hitting more than once in the first place. This is explained if you read the description of the way melee combat works. Multiple weapons just changes the final power of the attack and/or the number of dice you roll.

Which by the way is pretty flipping stupid, because if you have a knife in one hand, the other hand is still a flipping weapon you can use. it doens't magically turn into a new weapon when you hold a second knife, all it does is turn into a different type of waepon, from fist to knife.

Posted by: Diesel Nov 21 2003, 11:29 PM

You inflict more damage by rolling more dice. This increases the chance of the weapon inflicting a greater damage level through staging up. Whether this means you deflected their attack and nailed them with your other blade, hit them three or four times with your daggers, or just stabbed them in the face, is up to your GM. The combat in Shadowrun is abstract. You roll X dice vs. their Y dice doing Z damage. The specifics are up to you.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 21 2003, 11:34 PM

Cannon Companion, page 51:

"If the base Power of an attack (unmodified by burst or full-auto fire) does not exceed the rating of the armor, the attack is deflected and does no damage."

So I guess I was wrong about things like EX-EX not helping against armor, but that still leaves your 7M weapon focus high and dry.

~J

Posted by: Dende Nov 22 2003, 12:03 AM

Well but it says unmodified as in burst or full auto... staging up isn't in the same class, not really. Staging up means you found a kink in the armor, or hit extra freaking hard. Not hit him 3 times(which is what burst really is) It would make sense that even a butter knife could find a hole in the guy's crotch or armpit or somewhere, even on the best armor...

Even the worst sword can slice through a masamune in the right hands...

Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 22 2003, 12:09 AM

Not actually true. If the metal just isn't up to the task, no amount of skill is going to make it slice.
Regardless, though, the entire point of hardened armor is that it's so well-protected that you really aren't going to find much to do anything to. There are called shot rules for melee on CC page 85-86, and if your GM is nice he or she will bump down the armor value in the location targeted by a few points, thus making the difference.

~J

Edit: and because of the abstract nature of melee combat, hitting with 44 successes could very well mean you just got into a rhythm and managed to hit him 50 times in 3 seconds rather than any given hit being particularly skillful.

Posted by: Dende Nov 22 2003, 01:49 AM

That may be very possible...I suppose a butter knife might not...except for simple physics, a penny dropped off the empire state building embeds itself 1 ft deep in concrete. IE with enough force, it should work no matter the grade of metal(mind you the penny is unrecognizable after retrival)

But take it from this angle, could a level 4 weapon focii base dam 7 m cut through it dealing 13M? Even in DND a merely +1 weapon reduces damage reduction by like 10/-...

Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 22 2003, 01:53 AM

Nope, because it still deals 7M staged up to 13D.

~J

Posted by: Dende Nov 22 2003, 01:56 AM

But it's a weapon focii...aka MAGIC...I really don't see the logic in this...if it was really a butter knife that is one thing, but a level 4 weapon focii not dealing even staged up to hurt it...that seems absurd.
I don't mean to harp, but please can somone explain to me the logic behind this?

Posted by: John Campbell Nov 22 2003, 02:03 AM

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

I've been considering house ruling that if you win the melee contest only because of successes on the bonus dice you get from the secondary weapon, you do damage as per the secondary weapon. Haven't actually tried that out in a game to see how well it really works, though.

Posted by: Diesel Nov 22 2003, 02:08 AM

QUOTE (Dende)

a penny dropped off the empire state building embeds itself 1 ft deep in concrete.

[QUOTE]

I took a solemn vow to correct anyone who ever says the above. So here goes.

No, a penny will not imbed itself into concrete, it will not kill anyone, in fact, you can probably throw it harder than it'd fall. There's a magical thing called terminal velocity, which in short makes the penny go faster, faster, faster...and that's it! Coins have a high surface area to mass ratio, making their terminal velocity pretty low. If you want to find out the terminal velocity of an object, tie a string/rope to it, hang it out your car's window, and drive. When the string is between seven and eight o' clock (225 deg), check your speed. That's the velocity. This doesn't take into account tumbling, unless your a boy scout, so your figures may vary. A lot.

Now, back to your normally scheduled thread.

Posted by: Cray74 Nov 22 2003, 02:51 AM

QUOTE (Dende)

Heh. No. See: "terminal velocity" and "aerodynamic drag." The penny will bounce a few feet up after hitting the ground or maybe break skin if it hit someone.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 22 2003, 03:02 AM

That's because weapon foci aren't magic weapons in the d20/D&D style (I make the distinction because there were decent versions of D&D before 3rd ed). They aid a user in using their weapon rather than being mystically sharp and able to cleave blocks of stone with a single blow by themselves. They add to your skill, so if something can't be done with skill alone, it's still impossible with the focus.

~J

Posted by: BitBasher Nov 22 2003, 04:10 AM

Terminal velocity of a penny is 20-45 MPH depending on how it falls, and it has very little mass, that isnt gonna kill anyone.

http://ucsub.colorado.edu/~macklem/paper.html

Dont believe everything you hear, most of it is bullshit.

Posted by: moosegod Nov 22 2003, 04:29 AM

Like what you just posted

Posted by: Zazen Nov 22 2003, 04:55 AM

When I was a kid I threw two pennies off the top of the Empire State Building and one off of the World Trade Center. There were no nets or special fences or anything to prevent you from doing so. I wondered then why there weren't fields of penny-craters circling the ground floors of the buildings (heck, I couldn't even find my craters), then I got a little older and figured out why.

Now I think the myth might go both ways. Recently a professor told me that the terminal velocity of a mouse is slow enough for it to survive a fall from any height. A rat, he said, is just large enough to be injured or killed. I looked for information about it but was unable to find anything useful. Does anyone know about mouse-tossing?

Posted by: moosegod Nov 22 2003, 04:56 AM

Go try it.

And tell TerraFirst! before you do!

Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 22 2003, 05:10 AM

The mouse/rat may or may not be true, but there's a reason why there is (I believe) a Chinese saying that "a person may fall from a tree and die, but an ant can fall from the moon and walk away".
Of course, that may be another "Confucious say". Regardless, it's true (well, the ant has to start in-atmosphere, but other than that).

~J

Posted by: Dende Nov 22 2003, 07:49 AM

pennies and mice aside...

How about the simple analogy of diamond, hardest substance on earth(naturally occuring, anyways) and the fact i can use an aluminum hammer and shatter it. (Diamond resists cutting, not shatter, ask your local jeweler)

I see the rules, I don't get the rules. Computers I get, computers in SR I really don't. And fyi my weapon focii are both +4(well together, it is a pair of blades, meant to be used together) So you are saying then that no amount of skill with a blade could overcome an item with the same hardness(damage 7 versus hardened 7 impact) under any cicurmstance? I just don't see how that can be true...

Perhaps I am just lost in the world between realism and portraying it inaccurately in RPGs...

Posted by: Cain Nov 22 2003, 07:58 AM

QUOTE (Dende)

Okay, a rating-4 weapon focus isn't the same as a +4 weapon. You gain 4 additional dice to use in your combat test, on both attack and defense. Which is a huge advantage.

In Shadowrun, melee combat is not "I hit you then wait for you to hit me". It's a series of feints, counters, dodges, kicks, punches, and strikes. It's abstract, and not what a D&D player would be thinking of.

Every melee test in Shadowrun is an opposed test. It's your skill vs. the other guy, with the winner dealing damage. Thus, the number of dice you roll makes a huge difference. Assuming equal TN's, if you have even one more die than your opponent, you'll be likely to deal damage each and every time, regardless of who's action it is. (So yes, you *can* be hurt on your action. If you instigate a melee attack, and lose the test, you'll be taking damage.)

A rating 4 weapon focus does not add to the damage, it adds to your skill. Which means, it protects you and enables you to roll more dice, potentially staging up the damage. However, it still does the same base damage as any other weapon of the same type. If a normal sword does 7M, if you enchant it into a weapon focus, it'll still do 7M. You just have a better chance of doing a more damaging attack with it.

Now, the rule that people here are referring to is the one that says every 2 successes that stage the weapon damage past Deadly turns into a +1 to power. So, in order for that 7M weapon to deal a 13D, you first need four net successes to stage it to deadly, then ten additional successes to raise the power that much. That's a grand total of fourteen net successes. I don't even want to think about how many dice you'd need to roll, and how badly the other guy had to have rolled.

But to go back to your question-- hardened armor is only affected by the base power of the weapon. Think of it this way-- let's say you've got a three-inch thich sheet of steel. No matter how often you hit it with a knife, or how accurately, you won't be able to punch a hole in it. A weapon focus doesn't make you hit any harder, only more accurately.

Posted by: Sphynx Nov 22 2003, 08:52 AM

Heheh, Cain hit it on the head IMHO. You can believe (from a 10+ year vet of the game) that +4 dice is ALOT better than an increase to damage levels. 2 people in combat, only 1 gets to hit, and it's the person with the most successes. You want to roll more dice than God. Our resident http://shadowrun.i-sphynx.com/kosten.htm rolls 52 dice before adding in Combat Pool (and will be rolling 54 as soon as he gets his next initiation).

Sphynx

Posted by: Seville Nov 22 2003, 09:57 AM

QUOTE (Cray74)

Heh. No. See: "terminal velocity" and "aerodynamic drag." The penny will bounce a few feet up after hitting the ground or maybe break skin if it hit someone.

Actually, its not just aerodynamic drag, but also a bunch of factors referred to as (originally enough) non-aerodynamic drag. For a tumbling penny, without much weight but relatively high surface area, I would imagine that most drag would be parasitic, but thats just a guess from a guy who's not an aeronautical engineer.

Posted by: mfb Nov 22 2003, 11:36 AM

one possible houserule to deal with the "why won't my super magic sword cut through concrete" 'issue' would be to allow the force of the
focus to be split between adding dice to the attack, and adding power to the attack--i'm thinking of +1 power per point of force. how the force is split between these two would be decided when the roll is made.

Posted by: Dende Nov 22 2003, 03:40 PM

Here's how. At char gen, I have a 6 point ambidexterity edge. I have a 6 edged weapons skill, total of 9 since the 6 and 8 point ambi edge mean no offhand weapon skill, and just add .5 of the skill again. Then the +4 focii, now I have 13. I also have 9 combat pool as an adept, but I wasn't using them really, 13 die versus 4 I figured I didn't need them(and I was right) and yes I got 10 success a few times, staging the damage to 13D but dealing none for his assy armor.

And actually a 3in sheet of steel wouldn't be immune to a knife if the knife was also steel and was hitting the sheet with enough force(the whole point of AP ammo) Now, it may very well damage the weapon, but I would think it would be able to damage the armor too.

Okay, but 52 to 54 Die....WHAT THE HELL?

Posted by: El_Machinae Nov 22 2003, 04:02 PM

QUOTE (Dende)

And actually a 3in sheet of steel wouldn't be immune to a knife if the knife was also steel and was hitting the sheet with enough force

And that's why, if your character was stronger, you'd have been able to hurt the fellow.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Nov 22 2003, 04:03 PM

QUOTE (Dende)

And actually a 3in sheet of steel wouldn't be immune to a knife if the knife was also steel and was hitting the sheet with enough force(the whole point of AP ammo).

That's a great comparison. If you can strike the knife against the sheet of steel at 1000m/s (3300fps). Which I'm partial to think you won't, no matter what kind of Gung-Ho Ninja Master we're talking about.

[Edit]And more importantly: What El Machinae said.[/Edit]

Posted by: Sphynx Nov 22 2003, 04:06 PM

Don't forget, Weapon Foci adds to the skill (not just additional dice, but actual skill improvement), so holding 2 weapon foci stacks. 2 Force 4's = +8 to the 'skill'. So, with the exception that you can't possibly start with the resources for 2, Force6 weapon foci (and bonding costs), you could start out of char-gen with a skill of 24 (6 + Improved ability-6 + 2 Force6 WeaponFoci). Ambidex would raise that to 36. Of course, add in a couple hundred karma (we are an old game of power gamers), and getting both the ability (and the improved ability) to 12's isn't that improbable. Thus, 54 dice.

Sphynx

Posted by: Dende Nov 22 2003, 04:40 PM

Small clarification, I have one weapon focus. It is 2 swords(wakashishis). Using both I get the bonus, they are a pair meant to be used together. I call them focii cause there is more than one and they both have a bonus, I guess it could be expressed as 2 +2s...
That is how I was able to afford them.

QUOTE

And that's why, if your character was stronger, you'd have been able to hurt the fellow.

But strentgh determines weapon damage? I was told the damage was 7M...period, how does my strentgh affect it?

A for starting with 24 die....Not possible...even with 30 skill picks, you haev apenalty for all of them above equal to your strength(the way I see the rules, 1.5times cost after that) And of course that leaves 0 skill picks for anything else...What a horrible character, that doesn't sound like fun at all. I like rounded ones.

Posted by: Sphynx Nov 22 2003, 05:25 PM

Damage for a weapon is (Str+Bonus)M. Ie: Katana is rated as (Str+3)M. I'd guess a Wakazashi at +2, so you'd have to have a Str of 5 to do 7M with that weapon.

As for other comments....

As a dwarf with a +2 Str, you don't even need all that many points in Str to get it to 6. With only 6 points towards a weapon skill (and having only 1 weapon skill) even with the lowest 27 skill points, that leaves plenty to 'round out' a character.

Also, I said that, with the exception that you can't possibly start with the resources for 2, Force6 weapon foci (and bonding costs), MEANING you can't start with that.

My friend started with 18 dice (3 Power Points for +6 Edged Weapons and 6 skill points, and ambidex), and a weapon focus that he bonded later, in-game (so after about 5 games he had 27 dice). He spent his last 3 Power Points to get a geasa'd (Condition) +4 Strength for a starting strength of 12 (15M damage). And with a Strength of 12, getting the skill-specializations up to 12 was not nearly as expensive as you'd think (don't raise the skill, just the spec after 6).

Considering that leaves 21 skill points at char-gen, and a whole crapload of attribute points, he started pretty well-rounded, and more importantly, still the best at what he does.

Sphynx

Posted by: TinkerGnome Nov 22 2003, 05:50 PM

Hardened armor is fairly scary in some instances. There aren't many things that have it, but the things that are are meant to be real bastards to hurt. Vehicles are, by far, the worst because of the staging that the vehicle body does before you apply armor.

Posted by: Dende Nov 22 2003, 05:55 PM

Perhaps I am looking at this the wrong way. Instead of fighting the rules, hows about I make them work for me. Is there a better kind of metal or anything to make better weapons out of? Like instead of a knife having base of like +3...use titanium to make it +5 or maybe masterwork blades or anything?

Posted by: TinkerGnome Nov 22 2003, 05:57 PM

You can have it Dikoted™ (Man and Machine, page 111). That raises power and damage level both for edged weapons and makes them cut through barriers better. A Dikoted katana, for instance, does (Str+4)S and a Dikoted knife does (Str+1)M.

Posted by: Dende Nov 22 2003, 06:15 PM

How expensive is that? And it raises each by +1(as in from 7M to 8M base and +1 die?)and can focii be Dikoted?

Oh, I am sorry to ask, but only the GM of our camp has that book. I can look when we play again Thursday...but I was hoping to see what I could do before then.

Posted by: Cain Nov 22 2003, 10:01 PM

It doesn't add a die, it only adds to the power and damage level. And yes, you can dikote a focus. As long as the weapon can stand a few moments at extremely high temperatures, it'll be fine; swords are no problem, but wooden clubs are pretty much out.

To go back a bit: your weapon's damage is based on your character's Strength. So, if you're not strong enough to drive a knife through that 3-inch sheet of steel, it doesn't matter what the knife's made of, or how accurately it hits.

Let's use this as an example. Your character, and two teammates, are fighting a guy in medium Mil-spec armor with a helmet (10/10). You're all wielding the same type of weapon-- we'll assume a katana (Str+3)M physical damage. That gives you a damage code of 7M, assuming you have a Str of 4. Your opponent is carrying a weapon with equal reach, and has skill 6 and whirling, to negate the Friends in melee modifiers.

No matter how hard you try, you're not going to be able to penetrate the guy's armor. You're just not strong enough. Your skill and focus dice make you that much better at combat; you're striking accurately and defending well, but you just can't punch through.

Your first buddy, a gun-bunny with a strength of 8 and a skill of 2, is strong enough to hurt him, but not likely to with his low skill. He's more likely to be hurt. Since he's a mundane, his weapon could be a focus or not; it doesn't really matter, he won't get any bonuses from it.

Your second buddy, a mundane troll street sam, has a strength of 15 and a skill of 6, plus Enhanced Articulation for an extra die. Not only is he strong enough to punch through the guy's armor (doing a whopping 18M!) but since his skill is slightly better, he'll win on average. He's throwing less dice than you are, but is more effective, simply because he can apply enouh force to penetrate the armor.

So, the answer here is to increase your strength. In your case, spending karma will do the trick; you can choose to raise it normally, or spend 20 karma and buy a power point's worth of increase. You might also consider buying 4 levels of strength boost for that cost; it's only a short-term boost, but it'll do the trick.

Posted by: moosegod Nov 22 2003, 10:04 PM

QUOTE (Dende)

maybe masterwork blades or anything?

Oh no! Someone mentioned the Other Game!

Really, though, most Shadowrun materials are assumed to be more or less the best on the market. After all, we are working with nano-engineered products, high pressures, etc.

Posted by: Sokei Nov 23 2003, 04:22 PM

as far as your armor piercing analogy goes, sure your sword would be able to penetrate that metal if you could swing it at the same velocity of the bullet, other wise id say increase your strength or dicote your blades.

the sick thing is that you then have 14 dice before combat pool, to swing a 9s blade.... thats disgusting. just out of curiousity if you have that capabilty what do the others in your group have?

Posted by: Dende Nov 23 2003, 06:59 PM

Well, we have a Vampire(new vamp, with a bit dampened powers) an adept sniper with a 14S gun and like 8 Die...And a mage once initiated.

I really don't think 14 die with 9s is even as powerful as them, as a ninja my range is only about 30m for thrown weapons which isn't great with like 7L or M dam...Only in melee can I do much at all.

As the game progresses and the mage learns new spells, the vamp learns new abilities and the GM and I are trying to make ninja powers(very adept like, but Naruto style) so pretty cool all around.

Oh and according to Man and Machine my blades would be 13 Die with 8S...and 9 combat pool die.

Posted by: Bearclaw Nov 23 2003, 09:14 PM

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm @ Nov 21 2003, 05:42 PM)

Check SR3, pg 123.

"If the character is able to stage his damage up to Deadly, any extra successes can be used to increase the Power Rating of the attack by one for every two remaining successes achieved by the victor."

Meaning that, if you are the all being ninja of the universe, soldiers in hardened armor will be wishing they had their combat pool back.

7M Katana with 8 net successes becomes a 9D katana.
8S Dikoted katana with 8 successes becomes an 11D katana.

Posted by: Cain Nov 23 2003, 10:26 PM

Check p263, BBB

QUOTE

Hardened Armor
"If the power of an attack (unmodified by burst fire or anything else) against the creature does not exceed the rating of the beings armor, the attack does no damage."

Granted, that's the critter power, but it works the same way for vehicular and milspec armor. Since the base power isn't enough to affect the target, no amount of modifiers will change that fact.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 24 2003, 05:39 AM

QUOTE (Bearclaw)

I'm aware of the rule. I'm just certain in my own mind that that's as irrelevant as burst-fire when it comes to hardened armor. You may have a different view, but it's not defended by the passage you quoted.

~J

Posted by: gknoy Nov 25 2003, 02:21 AM

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

QUOTE (Bearclaw @ Nov 23 2003, 04:14 PM)

I think that the way they picure it as relevant is in the fact that successes represent skillful maneuvering and feints -- for example, you happen to jam your blade into the itty bitty opening in the elbow joint of the guard's armor just as he happens to have his arm bent /just so/ while attacking at that one opportune moment.

Yes, rare. Damaging? probably not:

If you get enough successes to stage your 7M wakizashi up to 10D or something, that's ... 7 excess successes, I think. Isn't 7 successes a /lot/ (for all but our melee-god-ninja friend someone posted

), especially given that it's an opposed test? That's why it's rare.

Now on why it's not so damaging: The hardened armor, at rating 10 or something, would change that 10D or 11D attack into a 1 or 2D attack. Anyone wearing hardened body armor probably has a body of 5-6 (since you don't give uber-good gear to weak mooks

), so they're probably going to get 4-6 successes. That's enough to stage the Deadly damage down to, say, light. Which means you've just nicked his elbow. If he botches his body test, or you got even more sucesses, then maybe it means you severed some blood vessel ... but that's the whole point of "successes", I think.

A more interesting question is, how does it differ from burst fire. Burst fire has an elevated power code not because it hits better places, but because you're likley to be hit by the whole burst, and therefore more lead is impacting your chest -- hardened armor would probably turn most burst fire into lead splatters (excepting APDS or EX-EX, I guess). (I think that the power increase, not just the damage increase, is due to this effect, given the way that two-round short-bursts are handled in SR3: +2 power, no + to damage level.)

The power damage staging from excessive successes seems like it's more about the well-placed shot (eg, you happen to hit him in the groin-to-thigh juncture, or in the middle of the faceplate, which is naturally slightly less armored than a half-inch of steel.

), and thus seems to be reasonable.

What I am wondering is, why are these people going after hardened armor with short swords?? I hope it's not by choice ... my ideal way of dealing with hardened armor would be a sticky-bomb or some other entangler (heck, maybe just a pair of Trolls to hold him down), and an oxy-acetylene torch. =) Or set him on fire. Or remove his air filter and then set him on fire. Or an industrial strength electromagnet to hold his hands together ;D

Posted by: leemur Nov 25 2003, 05:29 AM

QUOTE

Yes, rare. Damaging? probably not:

If you get enough successes to stage your 7M wakizashi up to 10D or something, that's ... 7 excess successes, I think. Isn't 7 successes a /lot/ (for all but our melee-god-ninja friend someone posted

), especially given that it's an opposed test? That's why it's rare.

Actually, that's 10 required succeses for 10D, or 8 if your sword is Dikoted. Which is still not all that unlikely, even for an opposed test, for a good close combat character. A starting character with 6 skill, using 6 combat pool. a sword and aptitude edged weapons gets 10 succeses on average. And if you were fighting guys in hardened armor, then chances are your not a starting character.

QUOTE

Now on why it's not so damaging: The hardened armor, at rating 10 or something, would change that 10D or 11D attack into a 1 or 2D attack. Anyone wearing hardened body armor probably has a body of 5-6 (since you don't give uber-good gear to weak mooks

So doing 10D, the guy soaking with a body of 6 (which is quite high, but makes the maths much easier) is going to average 5 succeses, bringing it down to an M wound.

So you've just managed to do a medium wound to a guy with an amour of 10 and a body of 6. I'd say that's not bad.

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Nov 25 2003, 05:42 AM

And if you're fighting guys in hardened armor, chances are they're not unskilled chumps who'll let you just walk all over them with 10 successes. Successes are determined after the counterattack, so no, 10 successes is not likely unless you're fighting some crippled gangers or something.

But let's assume some mediocre chump got himself some MilSpec armor. He has an Edged Weapons skill of 4 and a Combat Pool of 4. You have Edged Weapons 6 and Combat Pool 10 with an Aptitude. Base target number for this example will be a 4. Both are using the same weapon.

Random rolls:
Mediocre Guy (8 dice): 11, 8, 7, 5, 5, 3, 2, 2. 5 successes.
Starting Character (12 dice): 10, 9, 7, 7, 4, 4, 3, 3, 2, 2, 1, 1. 8 successes.

That's 3 net successes. Last time I checked, that was a ways off from 10 net successes. Hell, take away four of Mediocre Guy's successes (giving him a skill of only 2) and you still only net 7 successes. Quite a ways off from 10.

Regardless, hardened armor also specifically states base Power of weapons. Successes on a melee test do not increase the base Power of a weapon anymore than they increase the base Damage Level of a weapon or a Burst Fire/Full Auto increases the base Power of a firearm. Hence the specific use of the word "base." As opposed to "final Power modified by everything under the sun."

Posted by: mfb Nov 25 2003, 06:08 AM

c'mon, funk. next, you'll be saying that guns are better than swords, or something crazy like that.

Posted by: leemur Nov 25 2003, 11:30 AM

QUOTE

Or unless you happen to be good with a melee weapon. I am not saying attacking a heavily armored person in hand to hand is a good idea, I am saying it's feasible and effective with the right skill set.

QUOTE

But let's assume some mediocre chump got himself some MilSpec armor. He has an Edged Weapons skill of 4 and a Combat Pool of 4. You have Edged Weapons 6 and Combat Pool 10 with an Aptitude. Base target number for this example will be a 4. Both are using the same weapon.

I really have to question this example.

Firstly, like I said in my previous post, it's not likely that a starting character will be fighting guys in hardended armor.

A character who attacks someone in hardened armor is either stupid or good in hand to hand. If we assume that they are capable in hand to hand, consider that the guy in hardened armor is not all that likely to be a close combat kind of guy. And the further into a campaign this is, the more likely the gap is going to between the close combat skills of Mr Sword and Mr Hardened Armor.

Consider that a starting physad with aptitude and sword is quite capapble of rolling 18 dice with TN of 2, for 15 succeses. Even if we be incredibly generous and give the hardened armor guy a Martial Arts skill of 6, he will be rolling 12 dice with TN of 4, for 6 succcess. Why your Chump is carrying a sword is beyond me.

QUOTE

Random rolls:
Mediocre Guy (8 dice): 11, 8, 7, 5, 5, 3, 2, 2. 5 successes.
Starting Character (12 dice): 10, 9, 7, 7, 4, 4, 3, 3, 2, 2, 1, 1. 8 successes.

I may be alone on this, but I prefer to handle these things statistically. With a series of (admitidly unlikely) dice rolls, I could prove my physad could take a dragon in one shot.

QUOTE

That's 3 net successes. Last time I checked, that was a ways off from 10 net successes. Hell, take away four of Mediocre Guy's successes (giving him a skill of only 2) and you still only net 7 successes. Quite a ways off from 10.

My example gives a net of 9 success (on average). Although that does assume starting characters.

(Sidenote: Every time I think the phrase 'starting character', I start typing 'first level character', even though I haven't played any other RPG than Shadowrun in the past 18 months)

QUOTE

Regardless, hardened armor also specifically states base Power of weapons. Successes on a melee test do not increase the base Power of a weapon anymore than they increase the base Damage Level of a weapon or a Burst Fire/Full Auto increases the base Power of a firearm. Hence the specific use of the word "base." As opposed to "final Power modified by everything under the sun."

The bit I originally replied to made no mention of this, and, since I have no knowledge of these rules, I have neither the knowledge or desire to contest it.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 25 2003, 03:08 PM

QUOTE (leemur)

I may be alone on this, but I prefer to handle these things statistically. With a series of (admitidly unlikely) dice rolls, I could prove my physad could take a dragon in one shot.

Yes. You are utterly and completely alone on this. No one on Dumpshock has ever used statistics before.

~J, devoted to killing the "Am I the only one who..."-style phrase

Posted by: Dende Nov 25 2003, 03:15 PM

QUOTE

Consider that a starting physad with aptitude and sword is quite capapble of rolling 18 dice with TN of 2, for 15 succeses.

Really? your STANDARD one? The way I see it, only munchkins have that much in terms of die. Realistically an adept would have a 6 in their gun skill or hand to hand, assuming 2 handed that makes 9. Your estimate is double that, you adding full combat pool?

However TN of 2, where the hell did that come from? TN in melee is 4.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 25 2003, 03:19 PM

I have no idea where the absurd TN comes from, but 18 dice is from Edged Weapons 6, Improved Edged Weapons 6, and a Force-6 Weapon Focus.

~J

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Nov 25 2003, 03:24 PM

QUOTE (leemur @ Nov 25 2003, 05:30 AM)

And I'm telling you that it's only "feasible and effective with the right skill set" if you're fighting a completely inept baffoon who's managed to get his hands on one of the hardest-for-anyone-outside-of-special-ops-groups-to-get-their-hands-on items in the game. Which is not going to be the case 99.99% of the time. If you see someone in MilSpec armor, they're likely to be a highly trained combatant, easily your equal if not your superior, in both ranged and melee combat.

QUOTE

Firstly, like I said in my previous post, it's not likely that a starting character will be fighting guys in hardended armor.

I don't care if it's a starting runner or one who has 50 Karma under his belt. The rating of someone in MilSpec armor is almost always going to be Superior or thereabouts. That's always relative to the runners current capabilities.

QUOTE

A character who attacks someone in hardened armor is either stupid or good in hand to hand. If we assume that they are capable in hand to hand, consider that the guy in hardened armor is not all that likely to be a close combat kind of guy. And the further into a campaign this is, the more likely the gap is going to between the close combat skills of Mr Sword and Mr Hardened Armor.

Oh, I see how your mind works. Only RUNNERS can obviously be good in hand-to-hand combat because they're attacking someone in MilSpec armor. Nevermind that someone in MilSpec armor is likely going to be really good in hand-to-hand combat, too. That's just crazy talk, right?

QUOTE

Consider that a starting physad with aptitude and sword is quite capapble of rolling 18 dice with TN of 2, for 15 succeses. Even if we be incredibly generous and give the hardened armor guy a Martial Arts skill of 6, he will be rolling 12 dice with TN of 4, for 6 succcess. Why your Chump is carrying a sword is beyond me.

Why my chump is carrying a sword? Okay, so a Renraku Red Samurai, for instance, can have MilSpec armor just fine, but whoooooooa... sorry guy, but only Shadowrunners are allowed to have swords (or ANY other melee weapon or unarmed skill, apparently). Gotcha.

And a TN of 2? What land of make-believe do you game in? No conditional modifiers whatsoever? TN 4 modified down to 2 with... what exactly (Aptitude only gives a -1 TN bonus). Right. Get a clue, man. If you want to try and prove a point, at least be realistic about it.

QUOTE

I may be alone on this, but I prefer to handle these things statistically. With a series of (admitidly unlikely) dice rolls, I could prove my physad could take a dragon in one shot.

So you're saying that a guy with 8 dice vs. TN 4 getting 5 successes is "statistically questionable" (even though he scored only 1 success above average) while the guy with 12 dice getting 8 successes is apparently horribly skewed in favor of the 8 dice guy? Please. I even crippled the 8 dice guy down to 4 dice, total, with only one success... and your 12 dice guy still didn't come close to 10 successes. Hell, even statistically, 12 dice isn't going to give you 10 successes against a TN of 3. And that's assuming no other modifiers whatsoever.

Posted by: Sphynx Nov 25 2003, 04:54 PM

QUOTE (Dende)

QUOTE

Consider that a starting physad with aptitude and sword is quite capapble of rolling 18 dice with TN of 2, for 15 succeses.

Actually, Kage and you are both a bit off. Average for a starting Adept; in my experience, is 12, skill+ImprovedAbility (hard to factor in WeaponFoci since by Canon, you can't bond one at char-gen anyhows), after all, anyone who's played the game knows that you tend to have at least one specialization in order to be useful.

Calling appropriate usage of character points 'munchkin' is a bit off too.

On the other foot, it'd be considered idiotic to call an Adept with any less a valuable member of an elite team used to infiltrate and extract from powerful corporate structures.

Munchkin is the guy who plans on how to roll 50 dice by making sure he has the highest Strength possible (so that karma expenditure is minimal, and done via Bioware), a weapon focus to bond, and starting contacts to the magickal group he wants to join. 12 dice is just the typical Adept. (and 50 is a waste of karma, though convincing my friend of that will take more energy than I have)

Sphynx

Posted by: Dende Nov 25 2003, 05:56 PM

I may be new the SR world(only played about a dozen sessions, 8 as a Decker, and now 4 as a Ninja...) but I have never heard of Improved Edged Weapons...can all skills be "improved" where are those rules?(ie which book, and maybe apage #)

"Chumps" carrying swords...how about realism...How many ninjas carry shotguns? Why in God's name would I want a streetsam to use a light pistol? Sure some guns are nice, but It just isn't as fun to have everyone on your team using an assult rifle, sniper rifle, or grenade launcher, I guess it would work, but that wouldn't be fun at all.
Or how about infiltration, how many infiltrators have only a sniper rifle...man that guy gets jumped by a low level security gaurd with a baton and gets his ass kicked if he has no melee skill.

Posted by: Sokei Nov 25 2003, 06:01 PM

i would have posted this earlier but i've been tied up with finals coming up wOO.

ok heres the deal , dende is one of my PC's the armor he was going up against is security armor with gel packs installed, not mil-spec, although the stats are rather close.

also the reason he has that weapon focus as a "starting character" is mainly story based, and because he was bring the character into a currently running campaign. he had a choice between something that was above starting gear or equal karma to the one character who didn't "die off" from the previous group, the existing character was an initiated mage with an earth elemental and a bad habit of taking notes on EVERYTHING i say in game, i really have to be carefull or she points out my mistakes (aggravating to say the least).

the group went into a job as a favor for the amnesia stricken mage, they really had no clue what was down there and they had actually been slaughtering people in there with relative ease (they were being wounded but heal spells to the mage are like childs play). the only issues they had came up while fighting the gelled armor, obviously you know what issues Dende was having aside from that they did relatively well, the guards were rolling shit all night ( i think my dice are cursed heh).

also another thing with his "focus" is that for reasons unknown to his character his blades give him no bonus unless used together. for story reasons and to balance their power.

Posted by: Sokei Nov 25 2003, 06:07 PM

also , i goofed in not letting him make called shots to exposed areas because sec armor is not fully inclosed, i could be wrong my books are across the house an i dont feel like digging them out at this moment.

i feel Dende has done a great job staying with his character, ninjas can use guns he chooses not to , besides i already have a gun toting adept i dont need two
hes hampered by the need for close combat but at the same time hes sick when he gets with in 3 feet of an enemy.

Posted by: leemur Nov 25 2003, 06:10 PM

QUOTE

Consider that a starting physad with aptitude and sword is quite capapble of rolling 18 dice with TN of 2, for 15 succeses.

QUOTE

I didn't say 'standard'. I said starting.

6 skill + 6 improved physical skill (edged weapons) + 6 combat pool. Legal for a starting character. I am vaguely aware of the idea of using karma to bond to a weapon, although I have never seen it done in any of the games I have played.

If you want to call it munchkin, that is, of course your perogative.

QUOTE

However TN of 2, where the hell did that come from? TN in melee is 4.

No less than people cried "Bullshit" on the TN of 2. TN is 4, -1 for reach, -1 for aptitude. That would be TN 2

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Nov 25 2003, 06:11 PM

Oh yeah, we forgot. The guy in the MilSpec armor is just standing there and letting you attack him. Silly us.

Posted by: Solidcobra Nov 25 2003, 06:23 PM

maybe not, but the question is: What is he armed with?
Let's say he's nude apart from the armor (if the thought disgusts you, let's make him a her....), then it would be right.... if he used anything without reach a TN of 2 would be right as well....
*goes into hiding*

Posted by: Sokei Nov 25 2003, 06:28 PM

the guy that had the gelled sec armor had a light machine gun , which he crit failed with i beileve he rolled 5 dice and got 3,2,1,1,1 thus crit fail, gun jams, he died after attempting to beat the ninja with the gun for 3 turns. another member of the group jumped in and helped kill him.

Posted by: leemur Nov 25 2003, 06:32 PM

QUOTE

QUOTE (leemur @ Nov 25 2003, 05:30 AM)

Of course someone in hardened armor is going to have decent hand to hand skills. That's why I gave him 6 in Martial Arts in my example (12 dice with combat pool).

QUOTE

You think it's unrealistic that a character orienated for close combat to have superior close combat skills to someone who has more well rounded combat skills?

QUOTE

Okay, now I am starting to wonder if I am being trolled.

I will give you the Renraku bit. Allthough I have played ShadowRun for over a year, I have never played in the ShadowRun world (my first game was in the StarCraft universe, and the second in the Battletech univere).

On ther other hand, I did give Mr Hardened Armor Unarmed skills.

QUOTE

I covered this elsewhere.

QUOTE

I may be alone on this, but I prefer to handle these things statistically. With a series of (admitidly unlikely) dice rolls, I could prove my physad could take a dragon in one shot.

Sigh.

Where exactly did you pull the phrase 'statisically questionable' from? I questioned your methods, not your results.

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Nov 25 2003, 06:41 PM

QUOTE

Of course someone in hardened armor is going to have decent hand to hand skills. That's why I gave him 6 in Martial Arts in my example (12 dice with combat pool).

On ther other hand, I did give Mr Hardened Armor Unarmed skills.

Not in the original post I quoted. You assumed Mr. Runner was the only combatant who was completley unopposed in combat, and even in that situation, he still would only barely get 10 successes. You also assumed that only your beloved little Mr. Runner was carrying a weapon, and in no way would the guy in the MilSpec armor, who obviously would have an ENTIRE MILITARY's resources at his disposal, would just be sitting there waiting for you to kick his ass. Because there's no way he might have a bayonet on his rifle, or be carrying a melee weapon. And god forbid there's no way that Tir Ghost or Sioux Wildcat under the armor woudl be an adept, either. No sir. Screw his Superior rating. That means nothing. Your beloved, intrepid Mr. Runner is the shit, baby, yeah! Nothing can stop him!

Not that it really matters anyway, because it doesn't matter how many successes you get in melee. A sword isn't slicing through hardened armor unless it's being weilded by a ridiculously Strengthed troll or the like.

Which, of course, you've decided is irrelevant to the entire discussion because you're unfamiliar with it what the rules actually say. Despite the fact that it's the entire basis of the discussion.

Posted by: leemur Nov 25 2003, 06:57 PM

QUOTE

Not in the original post I quoted. You assumed Mr. Runner was the only combatant who was completley unopposed in combat, and even in that situation, he still would only barely get 10 successes. Not that it mattered, because it doesn't matter how many successes you get, a sword isn't slicing through hardened armor unless it's being weilded by a ridiculously Strengthed troll or the like.

Which, of course, you've decided is irrelevant to the entire discussion because you're unfamiliar with it what the rules actually say. Despite the fact that it's the entire basis of the discussion.

As I previously mentioned, the post I replied to made no mention of hardened armor, and thus I wasn't taking it as an issue. The issue was correcting your maths in your first post.

Yes, I didn't do an opposed test, because you didn't provide one in your example.

Yes my first 'Mr Runner' only got 10 succeses. The example needed 10 succeses, I produced a skill set that could produce those 10 succeses. When the issue of being opposed was brought up, I reasoned a way to get a signifigant amount of succeses.

Posted by: Sphynx Nov 25 2003, 09:55 PM

QUOTE (Dende)

Improved Ability, page 169 of SR3(BBB).

All combat and physical skills (Ie: Athletics, Stealth, Diving and Parachuting).

I think it's also allowed for vehicle skills, but that could just be our own House Rule... and in all honesty, from a 'munchkin' point of view, Improved Ability is the #1 reason to play an Adept, to exceed beyond the levels of a mundane(read StreetSam) in a skill. #2 is to have a weapon focus.

Sphynx

Posted by: Bearclaw Nov 25 2003, 10:02 PM

If you're using becks, you can start with a weapon focus. And a Katana is going to give you +1 reach, unless your opponent is using a bayonette affixed to his rifle. If he's using a heavy weapon, he wouldn't have a bayonette attached, so for hand to hand, he's either going to be unarmed or pulling a knife (not many militaries train in sword fighting ). Plus aptitude is a TN of 2.
So, 18 dice against a target number of 2 gets 15 successes, on average.
6 dice against a target number of 4 gets 3 successes on average.
Leaving a net 12 successes for the attacker. I've left out combat pool because it doesn't matter. The guy in heavy armor will be missing some of his, and the guy attacking will throw all of his into it, to get more successes.
Realistically, you can probably count on about 15 net successes.
So, with a strength of 5 and a katana, that's a 13D wound.
Right?

Posted by: Solidcobra Nov 25 2003, 10:10 PM

right.... the runners get to use the karma character creation system... while the NPC who's NOT supposed to be a melee god, merely a normal foe with a hardened armor, doesnt?

(I couldn't resist.....)

Posted by: Siege Nov 25 2003, 10:12 PM

QUOTE (Sphynx)

QUOTE (Dende @ Nov 25 2003, 07:56 PM)

Reason 3 to play an adept:

Less paperwork for equipping, monitoring stress on systems and calculating repairs/upgrades and Essence holes.

-Siege

Posted by: Bearclaw Nov 25 2003, 10:27 PM

QUOTE (Solidcobra)

right.... the runners get to use the karma character creation system... while the NPC who's NOT supposed to be a melee god, merely a normal foe with a hardened armor, doesnt?

(I couldn't resist.....)

To be fair, the guy I described would basically know how to fight with a sword, sneak, and climb things. And maybe speak his native tounge. But really, that's not more unrealistic than changing into an eagle and then lightning bolting your enemies from miles away, using your very enhanced vision to spot them

Oh, and your spear and magic helmet.

Posted by: BitBasher Nov 25 2003, 11:39 PM

Some random points:

QUOTE

Sokei said:
also another thing with his "focus" is that for reasons unknown to his character his blades give him no bonus unless used together. for story reasons and to balance their power.

Balance is only being able to use something when it grants all, absolute maximum benefits? That's pretty much the antethesis of balance. You can only use it in circumstances when it provides you 4 extra dice and then a 50% bonus dice on top of that, with a probable power increase to boot... ooookay. Balance, yeah.

QUOTE

Sokei said:
the guy that had the gelled sec armor had a light machine gun , which he crit failed with i beileve he rolled 5 dice and got 3,2,1,1,1 thus crit fail, gun jams

Then you do critical fails non-canon. You have to have ALL ones on the attack test to critical fail or botch. Does your group always do botches like that? what is the actual mechanic you use just out of curiousity?

While I'm at it. If there were ninji in modern day they would definitely use guns, not swords. Ninja used whatever weapon got the job done, they used swords (at least in our bullshit romanticized version of ninja. In reality theu really didn't, see below.) in that time period because sword WERE the weapon used to kill people. Too bad ninja relly pretty well sucked at assassination according to japanese historical records. Thinking ninja would use swords and not guns or other modern, more effective weapons in modern day is pretty far from logical, and bordering on ninja fanboyism.

Ninjas didnt wear black pajamas (that was the invention of kabuki theatre. Stagehands wore black because the audience would know they were not part of the show, ninja, supposed to be invisible, wore the same costumes in the plays but were actors instead of stagehands.), and they weren't all that goot ad direct fighting. They were assassins and scouts, that dressed like normal people and used subterfuge and stealth to kill people and gain information. They were assassins and scouts for the military, and thats about it. 99% of the ninja bullshit is from western culture, and japanese movies, which incidentally never because really popular until the 60's.

Incidentally, this is one of my pet peeves

For a breakdown of real recorded "ninja" read this site. It shatteres a lot of the myths and bullshit people think they know:
http://www.illuminatedlantern.com/cinema/features/ninja.html

Posted by: Dim Sum Nov 26 2003, 07:03 AM

Hey, thanks, BitBasher, for that site - new one to me. All the ninja bullshit used to be one of my pet peeves as well. I had a link to a site once - very detailed - but I can't find it, anymore. Basically said the same thing and had a lot a lot more interesting little tidbits from Japanese folklore and other recorded events (like the only recorded incident of a battle where both sides used massed ninja in battle - something like 4,000 of them - all slaughtered almost to the man).

Posted by: BitBasher Nov 26 2003, 07:07 AM

yeah, in reality the only thing ninja did really well was Siege Warfare, and getting slaughtered to a man... often they did both at the same time. They got actually destroyed in real combat. =)

Posted by: leemur Nov 26 2003, 08:57 AM

QUOTE (BitBasher)

yeah, in reality the only thing ninja did really well was Siege Warfare, and getting slaughtered to a man... often they did both at the same time. They got actually destroyed in real combat. =)

That's right, everyone jump on the ninja bashing bandwagon.

Next time you get into a spot of trouble, just don't expect a ninja to help you.

Lee

(Proud member of Local Ninja Union #307; I Kill People and I Vote)

Posted by: Fortune Nov 26 2003, 09:00 AM

So leemur, is http://www.realultimatepower.net/ your web site?

Posted by: Sphynx Nov 26 2003, 09:03 AM

Unfortunately for BitBasher and his friends, that was then, and this is .... then (future tense).

In 2050+ (2063 in my world), Ninjas are the best unarmed/stealth/athletics combo in any culture. Not because of what was factual hundreds of years ago, but because of what's factual now. Ninjas are how people see them (and thus build themselves to immulate them), not the wimpy forefathers that became exageratted legend.

Sphynx

Posted by: Sokei Nov 26 2003, 01:45 PM

damn i never thought id get a lecture from someone about the historical accuracy of something in here. to be honest im aware of the reality of the ninja background, but playing a roleplaying game meant to suspend disbelief in order to have magic and dragons i fail to see the harm in portraying a rather small part of japanese history as something idealized for the sake of the ninja PC. besides if you ever get a chance to watch Naruto (anime) they have modern ninja that still use swords. to be honest i could care less if they used guns but for stealth reasons hes going with the blades and poison approach, as the GM i fricking hate the poison approach but hes blow darted a few gaurds with effectiveness.

your right about the crit fail but regardless i couldnt hit shit with the two guards toting the light machine guns. unfortunatly a frequent occurance, somedays they get hit every time (when the enemies get a chance) others like the above example the side of a barn would be safe from full-auto fire.

Posted by: TinkerGnome Nov 26 2003, 01:48 PM

Bah, ninja have a long and illustrious history dating back to 2023 when physical adepts started popping up. Sure, he's wearing black pajamas and jumping around like an idiot and using a fighting style recreated by someone who knew a lot of karate and some other stuff, but he believes that he is a ninja and, frankly, I don't have enough perception and body dice to argue with him

Posted by: Dende Nov 26 2003, 06:14 PM

Just to point it out, my character doesn't wear pajamas at all. Yes I do wear some cool ninja garb on occasion, but not all the time.
History aside, Modern ninja wouldn't use guns, that just doesn't make sense. Guns... Maybe the idealized version, and maybe horribly innaccurate, but: Ninjas are all about martial arts, sneaking around and the close up kill. If you read the Cannon Companion Ninjitsu is all about the Ninja, you have to be part of a clan, etc etc...and know what? You can apply your moves to bladess, not to guns. Even the system itself is set for the classic ninja, which makes the game that much cooler than a pack of 5 guys with guns...I'll take the variety any day.

Posted by: Zazen Nov 26 2003, 06:25 PM

QUOTE (Dende)

Maybe the idealized version, and maybe horribly innaccurate, but: Ninjas are all about martial arts, sneaking around and the close up kill.

And flipping out and killing people!

QUOTE

Even the system itself is set for the classic ninja, which makes the game that much cooler than a pack of 5 guys with guns...

And by cool you mean totally sweet?

Posted by: Fortune Nov 26 2003, 10:47 PM

Real Ultimate Power!

Posted by: BitBasher Nov 27 2003, 12:29 AM

You rolled a botch while at teh cafe, you drop your spoon, roll initiative

Posted by: Diesel Nov 27 2003, 12:46 AM

23! I open a window!