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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Useless weapons?

Posted by: Moonstone Spider Nov 22 2003, 03:29 AM

I'm trying to figure out why anybody would use some of the lower-end shadowrun equipment.

Take knives. Say two people with roughly equal stats and skills go at it, one with a knife and one with bare hands.

The guy with bare hands will do a moderate stun wound.

The guy with a knife will do a light physical wound.

All other things being equal, the guy with the knife is screwed. The fist man only needs 4 successful melee attacks (Assuming he never manages to stage up/down) while the knife guy needs to land 10 to win. Armor works against each equally. While the fist man will only knock his opponent unconcious, 9 times out of 10 on a shadowrun that's good enough, and on the 10th you can take the knife from his unconcious body and cut his throat anyway. And since the fist does damage faster, the knife guy will lose initiative and gain + to TNs faster, making his chances of success even lower than they look. On top of that the fist can't be taken away (well, most of the time), doesn't set off alarms, and won't attract Lonestar's attention. Overall, a knife is a totally useless item.

Even on the boards people joke at how silly light pistols are. Given how much armor even average joe wears, a light pistol is useless. If that's the case, how the heck can you expect to ever use a holdout pistol? 4L damage = 0 damage against anything other than no armor at all, even with only armor clothing or a cheap armor vest a person with body 2 will probably never take damage from any holdout pistol without tons of staging up by a person with pistols skill 12.

Things only get worse when you consider a few other weapons. For instance, cyber fangs and horns. While they at least do strenth +1 (L) rather than the knife's pathetic damage, they have a -1 reach that makes the odds of success nastily low compared to good only reliable Mr. Fist. Of course the fact that you could buy several assault rifles for the price of a cyberfang or horn (not to mention essence cost) only makes things even more absurd.

Worst of all is the adept power missile mastery. Goody, you can toss credsticks and do half strength(L) damage. If the GM is kind enough to let you be near them at a critical time. Armor defends against it normally, it's so unlikely that you could ever do damage with missile mastery that I have never seen an adept take it. While it's theoretically useful when combined with Shuriken, they are basically a knife with a range lower than a holdout pistol.

Perhaps it's just my inexperience but does anybody ever use these items/powers? If so how can they be successful with such gear?

Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 22 2003, 03:37 AM

Light Pistols are useless. Holdouts are far from. A Needler is a great thing for fancy parties. Obviously they're useless against anyone using armor, but if you're in a situation where you need to carry them, anyone using armor is going to eat you anyway. The problem with Light Pistols is that they aren't more concealable than Heavy Pistols most of the time.

~J

Edit: and the "average Joe" wears at most 1 Impact, 2 if they can afford real leather instead of synthleather. 0 Ballistic.

Posted by: Crusher Bob Nov 22 2003, 03:43 AM

Yep, get yourself some shock gloves, or sap gloves, or something like that. It's quite easy to claim that your shock gloves are a 'self defense item'. Combine with a small can of pepper spray and you are ready for that classy party.

Posted by: moosegod Nov 22 2003, 03:45 AM

Harliner combat gloves give you +1 damage anyways.

Missle mastery is useful because it gives a bonus (that I don't remember) to other thrown weapons.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 22 2003, 03:48 AM

+2 Power.
Missile Mastery works best for an NPC wageslave that the players run into.
"...Why does he have an entire can of letter openers?"

~J

Posted by: El_Machinae Nov 22 2003, 03:51 AM

Knives are good for intimidation. Suppose you're in a fight with someone who's unwilling to kill (hey, it could happen). It takes a LOT longer to heal a knife wound than a fist wound.

This is the main reason why people threaten with knives nowadays - because the threat of long-term injury.

Posted by: FlakJacket Nov 22 2003, 03:53 AM

QUOTE (Moonstone Spider)

The guy with a knife will do a light physical wound.

Which is why the guy throws away the crappy knife he's using and gets something like a Fineblade that does (Strength) M damage instead. He then dikotes the thing to make it do even more damage.

But yeah, the edged weapons damage thing is a little broke. Not like it takes a massive amount of effort to fix though.

Posted by: OurTeam Nov 22 2003, 04:06 AM

Moonstone Spider, here's my take on the lower-powered equipment:

The books give GMs the opportunity to run opposition that is more skilled or less skilled than the player characters, and either better equipped or worse equipped than the player characters. Without rules for knives and light pistols we wouldn't be able to make gangs! And besides, the characters are sometimes so drek-out-of-luck that there's nothing else to use.

Often my magician has carried a Light Pistol in an external quick-draw holster (cowboy style) when the team goes to the barrens. With such a weapon, no one ever targets me first.

And did I tell you about the time my Samurai faced a dragon with just a Heavy Pistol, and lived because of it?

Posted by: Eindrachen Nov 22 2003, 04:56 AM

The stun damage from a punch is easier to get over than the physical damage of a knife. Also, against someone with no armor, a knife weilded by somoene with significant speed and/or strength can be rather bad on a person's lifespan.

Really, any weapon doing Light damage isn't meant to be used in "Munchkin Kombat"; they are, more or less, to take out the average slot, who shouldn't be sporting amored clothing and a lined coat, with a sustained Armor (6) spell. They were mostly made to cap that leather-clad punk who thinks he's Bruce Lee or some crap.

It's pretty much like the difference between a knife and a sword: if you need an edge for general purpose use, you take a knife; if you need to push sharp things through soft things that will scream and bleed, take a sword. If you are running security at an office or similar setting, you take a light pistol; if you are on guard duty at a corp facility that expects runners any day now, you carry a heavy pistol, SMG, or an assault rifle.

And Missile Mastery is hardly useless. What other power in the world lets you walk completely unarmed into a facility, grab a bunch of random crap, and start calling ranged damage out of the blue? Heck, link it with some Boosted Strength, Increased Reflexes, and Improved Throwing Weapons, and you can be a nasty little monkey...

Posted by: moosegod Nov 22 2003, 04:57 AM

And you can slit someone's throat with a knife, saving that precious 2 nuyen on the bullet.

Posted by: Tanka Nov 22 2003, 05:04 AM

Unless they're a Troll or have some form of Dermals. Or Orthoskin. Or... Scales?

Posted by: Cray74 Nov 22 2003, 12:48 PM

QUOTE (FlakJacket)

Which is why the guy throws away the crappy knife he's using and gets something like a Fineblade that does (Strength) M damage instead. He then dikotes the thing to make it do even more damage.

I thought you could not stake the fineblade bonus and dikoting.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 22 2003, 12:52 PM

Nothing says that. It's a not-uncommon houserule as the difference between a regular knife and a Fineblade looks suspiciously like a layer of Dikote, but by canon you can stick a layer on and have your own pocket katana minus reach bonus.

~J

Posted by: TheScamp Nov 22 2003, 01:56 PM

Then again, if NPC's and PC's are actually reacting to the item itself rather than its game stats (which don't exist to them), pulling a knife in a fistfight is a major escalation which should give the opponent pause.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 22 2003, 01:58 PM

Indeed. You can't knock someone out with a knife.

~J

Posted by: Dogsoup Nov 22 2003, 02:26 PM

As a paranthesis;
On the topic of light pistols, everything with gunpowder in it should do M damage IMHO. L is the realm of pellet rifles and airguns. I mean, just watch Lock Stock & 2 Smoking Barrels.

"Aaah! Shit! I been shot!"

Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 22 2003, 02:30 PM

One success is just barely hitting. A glancing blow, a shot that was almost a miss. By that standard, it's reasonable in my mind to take L damage.
Plus remember that L damage is damage significant to make a routine task (TN 4, 1/2 chance of succeeding on a single die) significantly harder (TN 5, 1/3 chance, odds reduction of 1/6). Light isn't minor.

~J

Posted by: nezumi Nov 22 2003, 04:37 PM

Apparently Dogsoup's never fired a .22 : P

A lot of the weapons are also there to keep players from saying 'what if' and feeling like the rules won't let them do what they want. Weapons also do have a roleplaying purpose. My gangers all have knives because its what gangers have, and I'd like to know how much weapon they do : P My decker (overweight and greasy faced) has cyber fangs, just because he's uber geek and I know that's something I think would be pretty neat. It doesn't ALWAYS have to be about killing people, you know.

Posted by: mfb Nov 22 2003, 05:41 PM

there's a lot of things about SR that could use a facelift, but weapon damage values are one of the worst. forget about armor--it's next to impossible to kill an unarmored person with one or two shots from a light pistol. and trying to kill someone with a knife is like trying to dig a grave with a teaspoon--in both cases, you'd be better off just using your hands. pistols--any pistol--should have a minimum damage level of M. knives as well, to be honest.

Posted by: Dende Nov 22 2003, 05:47 PM

You have to realize even with knifes a LOT of damage can be done. with 1 ambidextrious person using 2 at once with a 6 skill you get 9 die...With a called shot, that isn't bad, odds are good you get a few successes to the neck, and that works well.

Posted by: Moonstone Spider Nov 22 2003, 06:22 PM

Indeed. All you need is an 8-point edge and you can try to roll a 12 while your opponent rolls against 4 with his dice. Given relatively equal skill I'd say you're totally screwed with your two knives against an opponent with 1 fist.

I think the easiest way to tone things down would be to reduce an unarmed melee attack to str(L) stun myself. It's not unreasonable to expect a serious pounding on an opponent before he is knocked unconcious.

QUOTE

A lot of the weapons are also there to keep players from saying 'what if' and feeling like the rules won't let them do what they want. Weapons also do have a roleplaying purpose. My gangers all have knives because its what gangers have, and I'd like to know how much weapon they do : P My decker (overweight and greasy faced) has cyber fangs, just because he's uber geek and I know that's something I think would be pretty neat. It doesn't ALWAYS have to be about killing people, you know.

I would tend to agree with your logic Nezumi. After all Rigger 3 has rules for things like aircraft carriers and battleships that a Shadowrun will probably never actually see and can never possibly use just in case of such an event.

The thing is, having items like this means that anybody who plays themself well in character, for instance by buying cyberfangs because it's in character, is heavily penalized compared to a munchkin who buys only the best gear. The Munchkin can afford an AK-98 and about 20 IPE minigrenades for the price of those cyberfangs, for instance.

And while Missile Mastery does make thrown weapons more powerful, thrown weapons are already so weak it doesn't matter (although, to be fair, I think that's about what a shuriken would do). I tried to make a ninja character a while back to use Shuriken as his main weapon. After dikoting them and giving him the missile mastery skill I could do strength +4(M) damage, which is pretty good for an average weapon. But it cost me so much in terms of power and cash to actually do it my character couldn't compete with only less themed characters who bought SMGs that did superior damage for half the price (and no magic cost), and he died in about ten minutes of playing.

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Nov 22 2003, 06:36 PM

QUOTE (Moonstone Spider @ Nov 22 2003, 12:22 PM)

What are you talking about?

With Ambidexterity 3 (a 6-point edge), you get to add +50% of your base skill dice to your Skill Test in melee combat when weilding two weapons. If you have this edge, two knives, and an Edged Weapons 4 (Knives 6) skill. you're rolling 9 dice with absolutely no other modifiers applied. Against someone using Unarmed Skill 6, you're going to win most of the time, all other factors being identical between combatants.

Even with the Called Shot modifier (which I wouldn't bother with, personally), the TN would only be an 8 vs. your opponent who has a TN of 4. TN penalties are something you always want to avoid in melee combat, though, so making a Called Shot (even if using a lame house rule that lets you bypass armor) is pretty foolish unless you have absolutely no other result.

Sure, it may take a few phases of combat to kill your opponent with a pair of knives, but you're statistically way ahead of him. And with each blow, you're probably going to give him a Light or Moderate wound... which increases his TN on the next phase while yours remains unchanged.

...and as for thrown weapons being weak? Please. Give me a dikoted tomahawk [(STR+1)S damage] any day. What's even better is you can still use them in hand-to-hand combat, too. Paired. Such a sweeeeeeeeet weapon they are.

Posted by: hobgoblin Nov 22 2003, 06:45 PM

hmm, start at L, add 2 successes and your at M, add 2 more and your at S, 2 more and your on D. 6 successes, and that in my book isnt hard if your in close range with the right gear (maybe smartlink, maybe something else). sure with a heavy you need 2 less. oh and i think its the heavys that are to easy to hide, not the lights that are to hard...

Posted by: Zazen Nov 22 2003, 06:51 PM

I think mfb's point is worth talking about, though. For average unarmored people, it takes a whole lot of effort to stab someone to death with a knife.

Posted by: Tanka Nov 22 2003, 06:53 PM

I think knife would win over unarmed due to this (Note: this is only if it's going to death and not knocked-out):

Say knife only does L, so it takes six net successes to do D damage. Unarmed strike does M Stun, so it takes 4 to get it to D Stun, and another 8 to get it to D physical. Obviously if you're just looking to knock the guy out, if it's all even, one-on-one fight (even excepting the knife), the guy who's going unarmed has a better chance of winning.

Not to mention that some knives do (Str - *)L, and unarmed does straight (Str)M (or (Str + *)M if you have bone lacing).

Edit: Oh, and Light Pistols are not useless. Some of them look pretty.

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Nov 22 2003, 06:57 PM

Note that Damage doesn't matter whatsoever in Melee Combat. You never really get a "free hit" on an opponent; your opponent always gets to make a Counterattack against you when you try to strike him. If all other things are equal save for the amount of dice you're throwing (two knives versus an unarmed opponent), the knife weilder is going to be the only one dishing our damage on average. Even if the unarmed opponent has so many mods, implants, or power that his Damage Code is 100D Physical, it doesn't matter. It's all about the dice (and target numbers).

Well, there are times where a Counterattack isn't allowed, but we're talking a straight-on dual for these purposes.

Posted by: Corporate Raider Nov 22 2003, 07:02 PM

Most of my characters carry a knife for non-combat reasons: to cut restraints, jam a door open or shut, or get a cheap trauma patch.

Posted by: Tanka Nov 22 2003, 07:08 PM

Mmm... Survival Knife... Wasn't there a discussion on how to slowly generate lots of money from that? (Yes, I remember how, does anybody else?)

Posted by: nezumi Nov 22 2003, 07:50 PM

I remember : ) But I'm the last guy to ask what the whole deal was in the first place.

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Nov 22 2003, 08:00 PM

QUOTE (tanka @ Nov 22 2003, 01:08 PM)

Mmm... Survival Knife... Wasn't there a discussion on how to slowly generate lots of money from that? (Yes, I remember how, does anybody else?)

No, because you lose money unless playing with a GM who doesn't have a wit's amount of sense in him.

The Survival Knife costs 450 nuyen, a Trauma Patch costs 500 nuyen. Even through legal means, you buy the knife at 450, sell the Patch for 250, and sell the now patch-less knife (1/5th of its accessories, so lets only lower its value by 20%; I'd lower it by half at the very least) for 180 nuyen. So in other words you spent 450 and earned 430. You just lost 20 nuyen in the deal.

If the GM has anyone willing to buy enough to even bother making it worth it's while (at most you make 25 nuyen per deal) who DOESN'T check to make sure the trauma patches are there... well... <shrugs>

Posted by: Zazen Nov 22 2003, 08:07 PM

Enter the Connected edge, allowing him to sell the trauma patches at normal street price.

Now we're cookin' with gas!

Posted by: Wish Nov 22 2003, 09:28 PM

The part I love about the SR combat system is just how inept the average person is, in game terms. If you've got two guys standing feet from each other, not moving, they're going to take forever to kill each other, even with heavy pistols. Three dice (average quickness) at TN 8 (default modifier), they're going to miss most of the time. Not even dodging, or using cover, just standing there and trading shots. When they do hit, it'll be a moderate wound, so you have to shoot the other guy 4 times to drop him. Unfortunately, they also have combat pool, and with such a low intitiative (only 1 pass per round) and such a low incidence of successful attack, they will be able to dodge each other. 4 dice at TN 4 to dodge a single attack success is pretty good odds. It's entirely possible that these guys could run through 5 or 10 clips each, just blazing away at point blank range, without hurting each other at all.

Posted by: Cain Nov 22 2003, 09:56 PM

QUOTE (Wish)

That's how people really shoot, though. At least, in a combat situation.

A gun instructor suggested people try this test. First, as a gun range, fire a clip at a target at short range, and see how you do. Then, jog in place for a minute, then fire another clip. You'll be surprised at the difference-- the average person will shoot "like a spastic grandmother", according to the instructor.

In a real situation, you'll be under a whole lot more stress than what you get from jogging in place. Two untrained people facing off are more likely to hit each other by accident than by design.

Posted by: BitBasher Nov 22 2003, 10:08 PM

There have been many cases where over short distances lots of rounds are spent without hitting a target. I can think of 2 cases offhane here where around 40 were spent at less than 10 yards without hitting, and 129 rounds spent at 20 or so yards hitting the person once in the leg.

Posted by: Tanka Nov 22 2003, 10:09 PM

These untrained individuals also don't have the sense to Take Aim for a few rounds while their opponent is busy emptying his clip at the air and reloading every so often. Eventually, they align so well that the shot goes straight for the head and takes them down in no time.

This is, of course, assuming the other guy doesn't get really lucky.

Posted by: Luke Hardison Nov 22 2003, 10:15 PM

Ah, but untrained characters can't take aim. The number of take aim actions allowed is half the skill being used, which, when defaulting, is 0. Poor untrained, unaiming people.

However, the skill system makes sense. A person with minimal training (Pistols 1) shooting at a close target with no other adverse conditions (TN 4) will hit the target 50% of the time, miss 33% of the time, and 12% of the time the gun will explode in his hands. Wait ...... that last part is a little on the unrealistic side. So goes the rule of one when rolling one die.

Posted by: Tanka Nov 22 2003, 10:19 PM

And then the use of their singular karma pool to avoid that "Oops!"

Then they sleep and try again the next day.

Posted by: TheScamp Nov 22 2003, 10:28 PM

QUOTE

For average unarmored people, it takes a whole lot of effort to stab someone to death with a knife.

It kind of does in real life, too.

Posted by: Cain Nov 22 2003, 10:32 PM

QUOTE

Wait ...... that last part is a little on the unrealistic side.

The Rule of One doesn't mean the gun always explodes; I believe it only occurs if you're using Ex or Ex-Ex ammo. It could just jam, misfire, get dropped, get pointed in entirely the wrong direction, go off too close to your ear... the list goes on and on.

Posted by: Zazen Nov 22 2003, 11:03 PM

QUOTE (TheScamp)

QUOTE

For average unarmored people, it takes a whole lot of effort to stab someone to death with a knife.

It kind of does in real life, too.

It should be easier than beating someone to death with your fists, though.

Posted by: Mongoose Nov 22 2003, 11:22 PM

QUOTE (mfb)

[QUOTE]it's next to impossible to kill an unarmored person with one or two shots from a light pistol. and trying to kill someone with a knife is like trying to dig a grave with a teaspoon-[CODE]

Most people shot once or twice with low caliber weapons do live, and most knofe fatalaities involve many, many stab wounds. How many holes were in Caesrs corpse> If killing somebody with a knife was easy, it only would have taken 2 guys, not a half dozen...

Posted by: Dogsoup Nov 22 2003, 11:50 PM

Wish:
You forgot that -1TN for "target not moving". A TN of 7 equals 6, so without aim you got, dunno, 50% of scoring a hit using three dice.

Posted by: Siege Nov 23 2003, 12:15 AM

QUOTE (Mongoose)

QUOTE (mfb @ Nov 22 2003, 05:41 PM)

Ceaser's murder wasn't the crime of a dispassionate professional, but rather a dramatic and emotional affair.

A crime of passion -- of sorts. I submit the excess stabs were more a matter of enthusiasm than any real necessity.

There was also a symbolic aspect to it as well -- each conspirator struck a blow to show their committment to the affair rather than strictly lip service.

-Siege

Posted by: Tanka Nov 23 2003, 12:16 AM

Not the point, Seige. Quit being facetious.

Posted by: Siege Nov 23 2003, 12:19 AM

QUOTE (tanka)

Not the point, Seige. Quit being facetious.

Not the point? You cut me to the quick!

Walking the razor's edge here, I think.

-Siege

Posted by: TheScamp Nov 23 2003, 12:44 AM

QUOTE

It should be easier than beating someone to death with your fists, though.

It is. You only have to fill up one condition monitor instead of two.

Posted by: Zazen Nov 23 2003, 12:46 AM

But not really. I'd need 7 hits with my fists at base damage, but 10 with the knife.

Posted by: Tziluthi Nov 23 2003, 01:10 AM

Plus once the knife guy is out cold, you can just cut his throat. Simple.

Posted by: Anymage Nov 23 2003, 01:26 AM

My 2

First, I really don't mind if gear that does nonlethal damage is "superior" to equivalent lethal gear. Given your average gamer's mindset, they'll always chose to do the "most lethal" form of damage possible, and encouraging nonlethal combat means less lethal combat. This is a good thing from both the players perspective and the GM's, as it means that a run of bad luck or tactical mistake is less likely to totally mess things up.

Second, while a trained kinfe fighter IRL can probably beat an unarmed fighter of equal skill, that relies on things like blood loss and proper pressure points that don't apply in Shadowrun. I'd wager that a kamikaze unarmed fighter who didn't mind bleeding out afterwards could probably knock out the knife fighter, since most "lethal" damage gets far more mileage out of blood loss and shock than it does from structural damage. Trained fighters (read:shadowrunners and most people they get into serious fights with) will probably be less prone to pain and shock, and function well in the moment after taking a stab or a bullet.

(That said, one of the major deterrant factors of lethal damage in-game is how long it sticks around. If you rack up anything past a light wound, you're going to be out of comission for a while healing it up. The other drawbacks to lethal damage, blood loss and infection, are abstracted out for ease of play and hopefully dealt with via 2060's era medical technology.)

And finally, as others have said, it's fine if there's some sub-par gear out there. Game balance isn't hurt by low-end blips, and cash-strapped or nonprofessional foes should have poor equipment to reflect that. Sure, some rebalancing should be done (such as the survival knife<>trauma patch issue and the fetish some writers have had for heavy pistols), but if all gear were balanced, you'd have a hard time convincing me how those troll gangers got anything as good as cougar fineblades and ruger thunderbolts.

Posted by: Moonstone Spider Nov 23 2003, 02:21 AM

QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein @ Nov 22 2003, 01:36 PM)

QUOTE (Moonstone Spider @ Nov 22 2003, 12:22 PM)

Hmm, I thought you meant to use a called shot but oh well.

You do realize that with your six point edge you still get a +1 penalty when using two weapons? You have to buy an 8 point edge to get none. And you're comparing a player with a 6 point edge to a player with none, unarmed fighters can take advantage of ambidexterity too you know. But without it, consider:

With just a 4 point edge (Aptitude) I can get -1 on unarmed combat. That means the target number for the fist user is 3 while your target number with your advanced 6 point edge you are rolling for a 5. Thus on your 9 die you can expect a success roughly 1/3 of the time. With my six I can expect success 1/2 the time. Surprise surprise, we both wind up with exactly the same success rate, statistically identical. Except that I only used 2/3 as many points worth of edge. And my damage will reach deadly with just 4 successes while yours takes 6. Oh, and I didn't have to pay any nuyen for the knives.

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Nov 23 2003, 02:25 AM

No, that's with firearms. With melee weapons, Ambidexterity 3 is all you need; you don't get a +2/+2 penalty when using two melee weapons, unlike firearms. Technically you don't even need to get Ambidexterity 3. Off-Hand Edged Weapons 4 (Knives 6) (5 Skill Points) does the same thing for these purposes.

As for the Aptitude, you also realize that the rules intend/suggest that Aptitude not be taken for combat skills. But now you're just going into "what ifs." I did specifically state "if all other things are equal." We could go on and on debating "what ifs," introducing more and more modifiers, maneuvers, and techniques until the cows come home.

Posted by: Tanka Nov 23 2003, 02:29 AM

Cows?

Posted by: Eindrachen Nov 23 2003, 02:48 AM

The whole thing is a matter of timing, and skill.

I see a knife as a weapon of convienence; most armed services spend more time teaching you how to shoot small arms in various situations than they do in how to use a knife with the same proficiency. Even in ancient/medieval times, you trained with larger weapons as the primary weapon; knives were just something you took for a tool for various jobs (including slitting throats, or stabbing someone unconscious under their armor).

There is also another consideration. If the person using a knife is faster (i.e., rolls a higher Initiative) than the other guy using bare fists, it's possible that the knife-guy can inflict more stab wounds faster than the other guy. Since he's damaging the other guy first, he also inflicts TN penalties, which make it easier to not be hit, and so forth and so on.

Honestly, quick guys with a knife CAN do much better; they can send a flurry of slashes and stabs that just slice some poor sucker up. If my opponent was slower than me, regardless of other considerations, yeah, I'd take a knife instead of going barefisted, assuming I intended to do lethal harm.

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Nov 23 2003, 02:59 AM

Err, Initiative doesn't really matter all that much in melee combat (sadly). No matter how high your Initiative is, no matter how quickly and efficiently you can move in a stressful situation, your opponent *always* gets as many counterattacks against you as you get attacks against him.

Posted by: Tanka Nov 23 2003, 03:01 AM

Wait... I'm still confused about the cow thing here...

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Nov 23 2003, 03:07 AM

They have medication for that.

Posted by: Tanka Nov 23 2003, 03:14 AM

Yay!

Posted by: Moonstone Spider Nov 23 2003, 03:21 AM

QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)

Yeah, we could go into what ifs and play with edges forever. I would remind you of who started pulling out edges to bolster his position in the first place however. Your "If all other things are equal" notion is a bit absurd, you're saying if everything is equal except that your character has two weapons and an edge worth six points, then a knife can actually compete with a fist. That's like saying your team can win a football game if all the opposing players have the kneecaps broken first.

If you give yourself an entire extra skill and specialization you can compete with a man with his bare hands, although again your damage code is still inferior. You keep having to pull out advanced optional rules and you combine them with a relatively huge bonus of 21 karma worth of skills just to match a guy with his bare hands and base skills. With that much extra karma the fist character could have his unarmed combat skill at 2 or 3 additional levels, again cancelling out the advantage you've given yourself. Doesn't it seem to you that if you need an extra advantage of over 20 Karma in order to merely match your opponent, your weapon is clearly inferior?

Posted by: Tanka Nov 23 2003, 03:28 AM

There is no "clearly inferior" weapon, here. It's all dependant on who can get more successes to take the other guy down. A knife might start at L, but you can dikote to make it M. You can't dikote your fist.

OK, OK, cyberarms don't count.

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Nov 23 2003, 03:28 AM

Yes, please do remind me who pulled out the edges first. I'll give you a hint, it wasn't me (it was Dende and yourself). Here's a quick refresher's course...

Moonstone Spider:

QUOTE

First, you were wrong on the cost of the edge as well as the target number, both of which I simply proceeded to correct. You certainly didn't seem concerned about the Fisticuff Fellow having an Aptitude or anything else there, so why now beyond the fact that your attempt to disprove Dende's claim has fallen apart?

Not trying to be rude or anything (honestly). My point is simple. If some the Knifely Knave with Off-Hand Edged (Knives) 4(6) or Edged (Knives) 6/Ambidexterity 3 takes on the Fisticuff Fellow who only has Brawling 6, the odds are all in the Knave's corner. Assume the Knave is a runner and the Fellow is a ganger or the like if it makes you feel better about the disparity in Priorities/Build Points.

Posted by: Eindrachen Nov 23 2003, 03:29 AM

Cows and medication? Wow. Sounds like a weekend to me...

Posted by: Moonstone Spider Nov 23 2003, 03:46 AM

QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein @ Nov 22 2003, 10:28 PM)

Yes, please do remind me who pulled out the edges first. I'll give you a hint, it wasn't me (it was Dende and yourself). Here's a quick refresher's course...

Moonstone Spider:

QUOTE

I also don't have any desire to cause hurt feelings and I apologize for confusing your post with Dende's.

And I agree with your point, given that many advantages a knife fighter will beat an unarmed man.

But my point is, you're knifely knave can only beat the ordinary fisticuff fighter by drawing on advanced rules and then it only works if he's given either a very expensive edge or else has a huge bonus of karma handed to him to buy extra skills. In any position in which the character's are assumed to have equal skills, as opposed to the knife fighter being given almost twice as many or an edge, the knife fighter loses.

Posted by: Glyph Nov 23 2003, 09:24 AM

If we compare a basic knife fighter with the standard knife (which is essentially the Streetline Special of edged weapons) to someone equally skilled in fisticuffs, the fist fighter will most likely win. Both have the same chance of success, and the short-term wound penalties are the same for stun and physical damage. Therefore, the fist fighter will win the battle of attrition with a higher base damage code.

However, when you are building a runner, the ambidexterity and off-hand skill options provide a devastating advantage. Unarmed combat already assumes that you are using both hands. With 50% more dice, the edged weapons specialist wins hands down - it all comes down to dice. The only way a fist fighter can combat this is to get two shock gloves, so that he or she can take advantage of the same two-weapon rules. But even though you use your unarmed combat skill for shock gloves, I wouldn't consider someone using them to really be "unarmed".

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Nov 23 2003, 01:30 PM

Especially considering how broken Shock Gloves are. Few other weapons (such as Capsule Rounds) do "double damage" with each attack.

Posted by: Siege Nov 23 2003, 01:32 PM

It's not that the weapons are useless per se, but the rule system doesn't cover them particularly well.

Example: I cut a target's throat. I inflict (Str)L damage. I therefore have to saw through the target's neck repeatedly before the target dies.

Example 2: I put a Colt Manhunter to my head and pull the trigger. I take a 9M. I say "Ouch!" and pull the trigger again.

Suicide must be a bitch if you only have a skill of 1 or 2.

-Siege

Posted by: Tanka Nov 23 2003, 01:41 PM

My GMs and I have houseruled the obvious things out, like cutting throats and shooting yourself in the head. That's insta-kill, no Hand of God, no Body roll, just dead. Unless it's a Troll whose throat you're cutting. Good luck sawing through the Dermal.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Nov 23 2003, 01:43 PM

QUOTE

Example 2: I put a Colt Manhunter to my head and pull the trigger. I take a 9M. I say "Ouch!" and pull the trigger again.

With a skill of 1, you might even go through a mag of Heavy Pistol ammo without managing to kill yourself. TN 4 - 1 (Static target) + 4 (Called shot) = 7, Take Aim not possible and you need 2 hits.

With a shotgun, a laser sight and decent skill it's manageable.

Posted by: Siege Nov 23 2003, 01:46 PM

Ya know, I never thought to use a laser sight in my misguided suicide attempt.

Although if you have to take two rounds with a shotgun...ouch.

-Siege

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Nov 23 2003, 01:54 PM

Just use a Franchi or other shotgun with Burst Fire. That'll crank it up to D.

Of course you'll still lay there for a bit if you have a decent Willpower and a bit of "luck" on your hands, lingering until Overflow finishes you off.

Posted by: nezumi Nov 23 2003, 02:16 PM

Don't forget, you're also doing a called shot with a target standing still (-1 modifier). So with a laser sight or SL, you're at a 2. You're not going to augment your resist rolls with combat pool. I wonder if you could voluntarily forgo your body roll... you could use karma to reroll success though : P. You could kill yourself with two shots with a Manhunter, probably less if you throw in your combat pool. As for those light pistols...

Posted by: Nion Nov 23 2003, 04:03 PM

How about a house rule that gives you +1 reach for each initiative pass you have when in melee combat? That would give fast guys a bonus in melee.

Posted by: Raptor1033 Nov 23 2003, 04:15 PM

whaaaaaaa?? and how would you explain that house rule away? i've been fighting for 3 seconds so my arms got longer! whee! after less than 3 seconds of combat a wired troll could reach 3 meters away and bitch-slap the guy with the pistol? that was just ... silly

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Nov 23 2003, 04:27 PM

You could call it Mobility, I guess. The character with more Initiative Passes is better at strategically moving his body and anticipating his opponent's moves (instead of being faster, they're just able to accomplish more), thereby providing a bonus similar to Reach?

I dunno. Just a thought.

Posted by: Nion Nov 23 2003, 04:50 PM

Not add +1 reach each pass, 1+ for each pass you have that round. Equally fast people would cancel out each others reach, while a fast person could maneuver closer to attack and farther away to dodge. Reach is not a good word perhaps, Mobility sounds better, but having a single name and bonus for it would be much easier. This would also mean that having a big weapon would prevent the fast guy from dodging as easilly.

Posted by: Kurukami Nov 23 2003, 04:52 PM

Of course, everyone discounts the ability of the brawler here to just disarm the knife guy. Pretty easy, overall, given the rules in CC. I do think that lowering Stun damage from punches to L might be an interesting idea... but then those fascinatingly cinematic images of downing an opponent with a single punch wouldn't work at all.

Posted by: hobgoblin Nov 23 2003, 05:09 PM

heh, that can still be done. only takes 2 more succeses then before

Posted by: Siege Nov 23 2003, 05:27 PM

Yet another reason why I don't like the mechanical balance fix of the 3rd edition initiative system.

A faster, higher initiative person could (theoretically) wear out someone's combat pool with repeated attacks.

Just a rant on my part.

-Siege

Posted by: hobgoblin Nov 23 2003, 05:42 PM

think of it like running out of tricks and being guided into a corner

basicly the same deal with the fight in matrix down in the subway, both are burning combat pool to try and outmove the other.

Posted by: Jimmy_the_Fixer Nov 23 2003, 06:05 PM

I don't like the fact that the mace in the cannon companion has a higher availiability than the mono sword...

Posted by: Tanka Nov 23 2003, 06:12 PM

Have you ever tried to find a mace in the real world? How about a sword?

Sure, it's mono, but nobody likes maces. They're big and clunky. Swords are cool. Ask all the movies.

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Nov 23 2003, 06:15 PM

http://www.kill-bill.com/images/gallery/gogoyubari_03.jpg would probably disagree (even if she was using more of a Flail/Whip than a Mace). Mmm... http://www.kill-bill.com/images/gallery/gogoyubari_01.jpg. <Homer drool>

Posted by: TinkerGnome Nov 23 2003, 06:24 PM

If you want to get technical...

QUOTE (MitS @ p134)

Assume a character can inflict any desired level of Physical damage on himself.

Posted by: Tanka Nov 23 2003, 06:25 PM

*stab* Hate. *stab* That. *stab* Movie! *stab*

Oh, and, by all terms and technicalities, that really has no subclass, so I just call it a "ball and chain," which is almost its own subclass, but not really.

Posted by: Siege Nov 23 2003, 06:56 PM

QUOTE (TinkerGnome)

If you want to get technical...

QUOTE (MitS @ p134)

Assume a character can inflict any desired level of Physical damage on himself.

Great, now...if I put the same gun to the temple of a disliked character's head and squeezed the trigger how many 9M times will I have to inflict before his head explodes like a ripe watermelon?

-Siege

Posted by: Dr Komuso Nov 24 2003, 05:23 AM

Slightly off topic, but how in the hell would you handle an accidently shooting?

Can Little Elfy play with Daddy Elfy's Predator all day without worrying about shooting himself? If he does shoot himself does the GM default to Little Elfy's quickness and roll his own stats against him? If Little Elfy gets a success does he take 9M damage?

Posted by: Shockwave_IIc Nov 24 2003, 06:02 AM

Could our brawler go full defense-Zoning, claim super postion if he takes no damage (the manouver was successful) Then lamp the knave from a blindside?

Posted by: Zazen Nov 24 2003, 06:06 AM

QUOTE (tanka)

Oh, and, by all terms and technicalities, that really has no subclass, so I just call it a "ball and chain," which is almost its own subclass, but not really.

In an interview with Tarentino that I read, he called it the "Go-Go Ball"

Posted by: Dr Vital Nov 24 2003, 06:17 AM

QUOTE (Dr Komuso)

Littly Elfy defaults to quickness.

Little Elfy rolls a 1.

At that point it's clearly 9M damage.
Think she's wearing armor?

Seriously though... I think you're expecting the system to simulate too much.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 24 2003, 07:31 AM

Indeed. Y'know, that person called the GM is there for a reason...
On a side note, we have a lot of doctors about the place.

~J

Posted by: Arethusa Nov 24 2003, 09:32 AM

QUOTE (Dr Komuso)

This is a place where a system of rolling for which bodypart got hit (a la Raygun's rules) would be very useful.

I've also considered rolling an extra 2 dice on either side of the equation purely for damage staging up and down (not applicable for determining whether you hit or not) simply to add a degree of balanced randomness to the equation, allowing a potentially wider range of results without statistically overshadowing skill. Not sure how it would work in practice, though. Just musing, mostly.

Posted by: hobgoblin Nov 24 2003, 02:41 PM

like someone above hinted about, if its not coverd by the rules let the GM handle it (with a bit of logic and whats good for the current game).

to littile rules may be a problem but to many rules is alls oa problem as then you risk geting contradictions. and there is allways the rules lawyer...

basicly if a person put a gun to someones head then the person would be either dead or have some insane reflexes. no need to check damage at all.

if we had the kind of ingame reality that this thread is allmost begging for then we would be calculating physics for every bullet fired...

Posted by: Siege Nov 24 2003, 03:45 PM

Believe it or not, I am firmly in the "logical house rule" camp.

I'm just pointing out the insanity of people who would justify standing at ground zero and say, "Well, I'm not dead...only at Deadly."

-Siege

Posted by: Wireknight Nov 24 2003, 06:29 PM

QUOTE (Moonstone Spider)

QUOTE

Take knives. Say two people with roughly equal stats and skills go at it, one with a knife and one with bare hands.

The guy with bare hands will do a moderate stun wound.

The guy with a knife will do a light physical wound.

All other things being equal, the guy with the knife is screwed. The fist man only needs 4 successful melee attacks (Assuming he never manages to stage up/down) while the knife guy needs to land 10 to win. Armor works against each equally. While the fist man will only knock his opponent unconcious, 9 times out of 10 on a shadowrun that's good enough, and on the 10th you can take the knife from his unconcious body and cut his throat anyway. And since the fist does damage faster, the knife guy will lose initiative and gain + to TNs faster, making his chances of success even lower than they look. On top of that the fist can't be taken away (well, most of the time), doesn't set off alarms, and won't attract Lonestar's attention. Overall, a knife is a totally useless item.

You're overlooking that there are a lot of different knives, including ones that deal (STR)M or (STR+1)M. However, even the basic knife deals (STR+2)L. The law of the land as far as TN#s goes is that the most powerful single force in SR is the capacity to alter TN#. You can halve an opponent's chance to resist the damage, with that additional +2 TN#.

QUOTE

Even on the boards people joke at how silly light pistols are. Given how much armor even average joe wears, a light pistol is useless. If that's the case, how the heck can you expect to ever use a holdout pistol? 4L damage = 0 damage against anything other than no armor at all, even with only armor clothing or a cheap armor vest a person with body 2 will probably never take damage from any holdout pistol without tons of staging up by a person with pistols skill 12.

Holdouts have their uses. Mostly quickdrawn called shots to unarmored portions, with Hollowpoints or Glaser rounds. A 4L holdout with the right ammo, and a called shot to the head, would deal 7M base damage, 7S if you apply both staging and armor defeating values. Smartlink-2 modification is probably a good idea, but so long as you get a success or two, and it's in a Surprise round(no combat pool, no dodge) you'll do some damage, maybe even kill. Mind you, this is for firearm-proficient characters. If your skill's below 5, I wouldn't recommend it.

QUOTE

Things only get worse when you consider a few other weapons. For instance, cyber fangs and horns. While they at least do strenth +1 (L) rather than the knife's pathetic damage, they have a -1 reach that makes the odds of success nastily low compared to good only reliable Mr. Fist. Of course the fact that you could buy several assault rifles for the price of a cyberfang or horn (not to mention essence cost) only makes things even more absurd.

Yeah. It's a style thing above all else. Street samurai wannabee predators/vamps probably eat it up. Also has some of that same surprise factor stuff. I tend to rule such unorthodox attacks might call for a Surprise test before combat.

QUOTE

Worst of all is the adept power missile mastery. Goody, you can toss credsticks and do half strength(L) damage. If the GM is kind enough to let you be near them at a critical time. Armor defends against it normally, it's so unlikely that you could ever do damage with missile mastery that I have never seen an adept take it. While it's theoretically useful when combined with Shuriken, they are basically a knife with a range lower than a holdout pistol.

Missile Mastery's ability to use random objects to deal damage is almost useless, but the fact that it grants +2 to the power of all actual thrown weapon attacks makes it essential for characters who rely on thrown knives, shuriken, etc...

Posted by: krishcane Nov 24 2003, 06:31 PM

Regarding children playing with guns...

A lot of kids (and adults) playing with guns really do give themselves about a Moderate wound -- they shoot themselves in the foot or hand. I know a few cases of this among my friends. The only case I know of where a kid was playing with daddy's gun and inflicted a fatal wound on himself was with a shotgun. The SR rules actually reflect this -- 10S base damage, staged up with shot to 10D against an unarmed target.

Based on this admittedly casual experience, I bet there are a lot less cases of accidental self-inflicted death by .38 or 9 mm than 12-gauge.

--K

Edit for grammar: geez, is English my native tongue after all?

Edit again: http://www.health.state.ok.us/program/injury/violence/firearmv.html. Interesting data -- for every firearms death, it is estimated that there are 5 to 7 firearms injuries. That means that when a firearm hits someone, it only has a 12% to 16% chance of killing them on average. Since almost two-thirds of firearms deaths are suicides, and presumably suicide-attempt death-rates are higher than homicide-attempt death-rates, it means that the death rates for homicide-attempts and firearms-accidents are even lower. It is indeed rare to die of an accidental firearm discharge, even if it hits you.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 24 2003, 06:47 PM

Troll adepts are very, very unpleasant with Missile Mastery. 8L damage ain't nothing to laugh at, and that's before we start getting into actual missile weapons.

~J

Posted by: Zazen Nov 24 2003, 08:06 PM

Add dikote, of course!

9M from a bent paper clip is awfully fun stuff.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 24 2003, 08:51 PM

Dikoted paperclips... gods that's a scary idea.
Dikoting your credstick, though, isn't the most massively off-the-wall idea. Screwy, yes, but cash-in-your-mattress screwy, not cash-hidden-in-living-bunnies screwy.

~J

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Nov 24 2003, 08:58 PM

Dikoting is really only useful on edged weapons. It doesn't increase the Damage Level for any other types of weapons, and I don't think a bent paper-clip would count as an edged weapon.

And how do you propose dikoting your credit card? The heat would destroy it before the dikoe even had a chance to touch it.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 24 2003, 09:04 PM

Is there a canon statement that credsticks must be plastic? I would assume it would be a trivial matter to get a metal-cased credstick, and if you've got the money to throw away on dikote, you can certainly get it coated before they stick the electronics in.
As for a bent paperclip, his use of it as an edged weapon is debateable. Still 9L if non-edged.

~J

Posted by: DR.PaiN Nov 24 2003, 09:18 PM

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

Indeed. Y'know, that person called the GM is there for a reason...
On a side note, we have a lot of doctors about the place.

~J

Duh.

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Nov 24 2003, 09:19 PM

Whether or not you choose to allow something like that (which would be about as practical as carrying around a metal credit card today), credsticks aren't Edged Weapons either. They're four-inch long cylindrical(sp?) tubes according to the Sprawl Survival Guide.

Posted by: Shanshu Freeman Nov 24 2003, 09:24 PM

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

Dikoting your credstick, though, isn't the most massively off-the-wall idea. Screwy, yes, but cash-in-your-mattress screwy, not cash-hidden-in-living-bunnies screwy.

:lol:

Posted by: Shanshu Freeman Nov 24 2003, 09:25 PM

QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)

credit *cards* as we know them, today, using today's materials and manufacturing methods, yes.

cred*sticks* using SR tech, methods, materials, etc, why not?

Posted by: Senchae Nov 24 2003, 09:39 PM

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

Screwy, yes, but cash-in-your-mattress screwy, not cash-hidden-in-living-bunnies screwy.

That line belongs in a Dumpshock hall of fame somewhere.

Posted by: Zazen Nov 24 2003, 10:02 PM

QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)

Dikoting is really only useful on edged weapons. It doesn't increase the Damage Level for any other types of weapons, and I don't think a bent paper-clip would count as an edged weapon.

That's why I specified that it was bent, to expose the sharp point on each end.

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Nov 24 2003, 10:05 PM

A mace has sharp spikey points, too, but it's still a Club. Just because a weapon has something you might call an edge doesn't make it an Edged Weapon.

Posted by: Zazen Nov 24 2003, 10:33 PM

What sort of weapon is it, then?

Hint: Stab yourself hard in the hand with a paper clip a few times to help you make your determination.

Posted by: Siege Nov 24 2003, 10:38 PM

QUOTE (Zazen)

What sort of weapon is it, then?

Hint: Stab yourself hard in the hand with a paper clip a few times to help you make your determination.

It's a piercing weapon!

Sorry, d20 moment.

-Siege

Posted by: Tanka Nov 24 2003, 11:25 PM

Well, apparently the velocity of a falling bullet that has just been fired from a gun isn't enough to kill somebody.

Does that make it a useless weapon?

(Article I based this randomness on http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/South/11/24/klan.initiation.ap/index.html.)

Posted by: Zazen Nov 25 2003, 12:53 AM

Isn't enough? It went right through the guys skull!

Posted by: Tanka Nov 25 2003, 01:26 AM

Didn't kill him. Just did some serious damage.

QUOTE (CNN Source)

...critically injuring him, authorities said.

First paragraph. Big black bolded letters. Can't miss it.

Posted by: Rev Nov 25 2003, 01:43 AM

I would also point out that knives are highly concealable melee weapons.

The str+2L survival knife in the main book has 6 concealability.

Also they make cheap weapon foci because they have no reach.

Together these attributes make them quite effective against spirits.

Finally they are not nearly the bullet magnet that a sword is

Concealability is also the greatest part of missile mastery. An adept with missile mastery and high strength naked in an office building is surrounded by fairly effective ranged weapons.

Posted by: Tanka Nov 25 2003, 01:50 AM

Exactly why pencils should be banned in school. You're never far from a weapon if you know what to do.

Posted by: Sahandrian Nov 25 2003, 12:31 PM

As for the suicide thing, we have a simple house rule for that one. The Point Blank Rule. Basically, firing a gun at someone at a range of under one meter has a TN of 2, with mods at the GM's discretion, usually none. So even if you're defaulting, shooting yourself in the head is already 9S, and so long as you get a pair of twos, you're at D, and rolling 9s on Body is unlikely.

Though that still means that a big slow guy will probably be unable to properly shoot himself in the head... though that could be explained as a lack of mobility preventing him from aiming properly...

Posted by: Raptor1033 Nov 25 2003, 02:38 PM

hehe too many muscles or fat to raise the arms above the head to put the pistol to the temple, gonna have to use a shotgun so you don't have to put your hands above shoulder level

Posted by: krishcane Nov 25 2003, 03:06 PM

It happens sometimes in gun suicides that people flinch as they pull the trigger -- or they yank the trigger when they fire and jerk the barrel partially off-line. Though all good firearms experts are trained to gently squeeze the trigger, people about to commit suicide are frequently in an emotional state, possibly shaking with fear (or rage or frustration), and frequently drunk. Hence the 17% survival rate of gun-based suicide attempts.

Sadly, few people completely miss, so the survival cases are usually missing part of their face.

--K

Posted by: gknoy Nov 25 2003, 11:29 PM

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)

QUOTE

Example 2: I put a Colt Manhunter to my head and pull the trigger. I take a 9M. I say "Ouch!" and pull the trigger again.

Not to mention the +2 or +3 penalty for M or S damage when you first get hit ... your second shot might never land.

"Yeah, we found a guy with a pile of empty clips and a bad concussion ..."

I guess that's why real suicidal runners use an SMG or AR for suicide. Or a sniper rifle, if you can pull the trigger with your toe. Or you could just walk into the local Stuffer Shack and start shooting.

Posted by: Phaeton Nov 25 2003, 11:37 PM

QUOTE (Siege)

You're forgetting the principle of called shots and using common sense to agree that they'd apply in this scenario, methinks. No offense...

Posted by: Artemis Nov 25 2003, 11:40 PM

I... think that some things are called off of obvious results.

Such as when a person shoves a butter knife into your eye and through your brain. Obviously at such time the butter knife will have results far superior to that of a (STR-2)L. Even with a skill of Edged Weapons 1.

Posted by: Phaeton Nov 25 2003, 11:48 PM

QUOTE (Rev)

Concealability is also the greatest part of missile mastery. An adept with missile mastery and high strength naked in an office building is surrounded by fairly effective ranged weapons.

Which leads me to ask the utterly insane following questions:

...Could you make a cyber-implant weapon into weapon foci?

If I have off-hand and normal edged-weapons, can I use forearm snap blades twice per turn?

*bow* Thank you all for your time.

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Nov 25 2003, 11:51 PM

Of course you can.

Posted by: Phaeton Nov 25 2003, 11:59 PM

QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)

Of course you can.

Now the problem for the mage/adept/shaman/whatever in question to have the right connections to find a clinic. But that's a different story.

Furthermore, could I make a cyberspur or handblade the anchor for a "Laserblade"-type spell?

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Nov 26 2003, 12:04 AM

If you create the spell, you sure can.

Posted by: Phaeton Nov 26 2003, 02:26 AM

And the last question I have is...Can you smartlink a crossbow?

Posted by: Fortune Nov 26 2003, 02:31 AM

There's no reason why not, since you can SmartLink a normal bow.

Posted by: Zazen Nov 26 2003, 02:41 AM

What do you think about a blowgun, then?

Posted by: Fortune Nov 26 2003, 02:43 AM

Yet another example of the need for a [not in my game] smiley.

Posted by: Zazen Nov 26 2003, 03:06 AM

Me either, I was just curious about where you draw the line with projectile weapons. I played in a game that had one and I thought it was pretty dumb.

Posted by: Phaeton Nov 26 2003, 03:07 AM

QUOTE (Fortune @ Nov 25 2003, 09:43 PM)

Yet another example of the need for a [not in my game] smiley.

...In all seriousness, though, does anyone think that smartlinking a grenade launcher would do anything? I think it would only matter if the grenades were definitely impact-activatable...

Posted by: Fortune Nov 26 2003, 03:13 AM

IIRC, there are specific rules for how SmartLinks interact with Grenade Launchers.

Posted by: Arethusa Nov 26 2003, 03:26 AM

They're called GrenadeLinks, and they allw you to time airbursts perfectly as opposed to worrying about impact detonation. They are rather sweet.

Posted by: Phaeton Nov 26 2003, 03:33 AM

I thought Grenade Links just allowed you to fire an underbarrel grenade launcher and the weapon it's mounted on at the same time...Ah well. Mainly I was referring to whether you'd get a better target number with the launch. And if Smartlink II-ing a grenade launcher would be practical. I think it'd be hard to make a headshot with a grenade launcher...

Edit: Never mind. A friend explained what the grenade link does.

Posted by: mfb Nov 26 2003, 05:35 AM

man, i wish. none of my characters would do anything in combat ever again, except simultaneously lay down suppressive fire and launch grenades.

Posted by: The Jopp Nov 26 2003, 09:45 AM

How about this little useless toy then.

Bracer
Avail: 12
Cost: 1200
Damage: 6L
Ammo: 1
TN modifier: +1
Conceal: 7

The rules say No accessories. Does that include a SL that doesn't even take a mount? You have a base TN of 5+ and you can fire 1 round. I'd rather take the Puzzler with a SL2 and Hi-C rounds instead of the above toy.

So, does people ignore it when it goes through the MAD scanner and need a visual inspection with a TN of 7+ to see what it really is?

EDIT: I forgot, the damn thing needs a SEPARATE skill to use as well.