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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ MiniGrenades

Posted by: kevyn668 Nov 25 2003, 10:02 PM

The underbarrel minigrenade launcher accessory has a 6 shot tubular mag, I believe. yet the all of the illustrations depict a present day size underbarrel GL (20mm? 40mm? I forget). So, as it says above, how big are these things?

They must be smaller than the round used today as having a 6 round tube mag under your AR would be absurdly HUGE. To say nothing of the (clever) Armtech MGL series. Try getting your paw around the pistol grip.

And the whole MGL thing, IIRC the pistol is cheaper than the single shot non-underbarrel weapon, made by Ares(?).

I guess I think these things are about the size of a shotgun shell (12 or maybe 10 gauge). But that makes the single shot weapon obsolete, right? Why have to reload after each round when you slap clip of 6 or 12 home and rock-n-roll? They all have the same range, I believe, unless the pistol takes a penalty.

What you people say?

Posted by: Game2BHappy Nov 25 2003, 10:08 PM

Looks like the underbarrel Ares Antioch Grenade Launcher holds 6 rounds (same as MGL-6) and is only 100 NuYen more than the MGL-6.

As for size of the rounds ... you bring up a good point about trying to get a grip around the clip. Are there pictures that show the clip passing through the handle?

Posted by: Siege Nov 25 2003, 10:08 PM

I'd call it an "oops" in communication while producing the SR mechanics.

The M203 (the grenade launcher strapped on the Colt M22) is a 40mm IRL.

The minigrenade launcher is probably a 20mm platform, although that's sheer guesswork on my part.

I've wondered how much nastier a 40mm grenade would be over the proposed 20mm in game, although my GM just house-rules that the grenades are 40mm.

The Ares Antioch would be a drum-fed 40mm system -- see T2 for a visual reference.

-Siege

Posted by: Arethusa Nov 25 2003, 10:16 PM

I took them to be roughly equivalent in size to present day 20mm grenades with equivalent firepower to the more traditional 40mm stuff. As AzTechnology's Rocket Horse proves, the illustrations are almost always bullshit and should never be paid attention to.

As for the tubular mag, I think it's stupid, but there are far worse gaffes all over the firearms rules that this seems more or less minor. Not that I'd have anything against houseruling it that grenades be loaded from a traditional box magazine.

I'm not familiar wirth the single shot grenade launcher you're referring to, though I'm guessing it's intended to be something along the lines of an HK69/M79? If you've got a page number, would be appreciated.

Posted by: BitBasher Nov 25 2003, 11:43 PM

20mm internal grenade launcher with tube magazine, see Pulse Rifle from Aliens.... thats exactly what it was.

Posted by: Dogsoup Nov 26 2003, 12:44 AM

QUOTE

...the illustrations are almost always bullshit and should never be paid attention to.

Im serious! The illustrations are either ridiculous in one sense or another, or hide the fact that every weapon, or vehicle, in the gear list is an abstraction of many similar models by different manufactors.

Posted by: Dim Sum Nov 26 2003, 05:43 AM

Oops, Bit beat me to it.

In my games, the mini-grenades are the size of about shotgun shells similar to the ones in the movie Aliens - you get a good idea of how big they are when Vasquez and the lieutenant (can't remember his name for the life of me at the moment) clasp one together and blow themselves up along with several aliens.

Posted by: Tanka Nov 26 2003, 05:47 AM

I think I read somewhere that minis were basically frisbee-shaped... Makes better for chucking and launching.

Posted by: BitBasher Nov 26 2003, 05:50 AM

Theres no such thing as chucking a minigrenade, they are only launched weapons, never thrown. You are thinking of aerodynamic grenades.

Posted by: Siege Nov 26 2003, 05:58 AM

QUOTE (BitBasher)

Theres no such thing as chucking a minigrenade, they are only launched weapons, never thrown. You are thinking of aerodynamic grenades.

Actually, if you check page 283 of the BBB, minigrenades can be armed and thrown manually if the PC makes an Electronics B/R (6) test.

Not that anyone would really want to, but...

-Siege

Posted by: Tanka Nov 26 2003, 06:08 AM

That must've been it. I do think, however, the description is in one of the Neo A books. Don't quote me on this. And no being facetious, Siege. (I just know you'll quote me for the sheer fun of it. )

Posted by: Siege Nov 26 2003, 06:10 AM

Heh, I'm not that bad. Really.

I don't recall reading anything suggesting the minigrenade was discus or hockey puck shaped in canon SR material.

In CP2020, however, they did have the "discus of death" which allowed daring characters to make hockey-like shots with what amounted to C-4.

-Siege

Posted by: Tanka Nov 26 2003, 06:12 AM

I was referring to BitBasher's correct statement of Aerodynamic Grenade, actually.

Sorry for the confusion.

Posted by: Siege Nov 26 2003, 06:15 AM

QUOTE (tanka)

I was referring to BitBasher's correct statement of Aerodynamic Grenade, actually.

Sorry for the confusion.

Apology accepted.

-Siege

Posted by: KarmaInferno Nov 26 2003, 07:14 AM

A minigrenade is juust small enough to shove up the nethers. Works especially well when you threaten the victim's hindside with a bat.

<whack!> "Whoops! Didn't go off. I guess I'll have to try again. What? You say you DO know where the courier is?"

Posted by: Siege Nov 26 2003, 07:15 AM

And you thought it was bad when the drek hit the fan.

-Siege

Posted by: Raygun Nov 26 2003, 07:31 AM

Holding six rounds of any kind of effective mini-grenade in an underbarrel grenade launcher with a tubular magazine seems, to me, just a tad optimistic. (That's sarcasm you smell.) It isn't possible today (at least, not in any practical form) and in order to address the standard "not in sixty years" argument, I'll be happy to bet anyone here that it won't happen in the next sixty years either. But that really doesn't matter, I guess.

Just to give you a comparison, today's http://www.hkpro.com/oicw.htm incorporates a 20mm, air-burst programmable, autoloading grenade launcher which loads from a six-round box magazine. As you can see, it's pretty big. The weapon might get a bit smaller prior to issue in 2009 but not by any major degree, and it is very unlikely that the cartridge will get any smaller. As it is, there have been some complaints about the effectiveness of the round during testing. Now, those things will surely improve with time, but there are physical limits that need to be considered. Grab your nearest physics and economics books and get down.

QUOTE (Game2BHappy)

As for size of the rounds ... you bring up a good point about trying to get a grip around the clip. Are there pictures that show the clip passing through the handle?

There is a picture that shows the magazine not passing through the grip. The Fields Of Fire sourcebook has a picture of the MGL-6 (p.47). It looks like a bullpup Glock pistol, with the space between the magazine and the grip making a thumbhole. In order to fit six rounds into the space provided, I would imagine that the grenade could be no larger in diameter than roughly .50 caliber (perhaps about the same size as a http://www.carttonic.com/files/pic.php?uname=corbon&myfile=500swcase.jpg cartridge), assuming that the pistol is designed for a human-sized being. That would obviously limit the payload pretty severely, and would make the "grenade" practically useless. Even so, I would imagine that recoil would be pretty severe.

Overall Cartridge Size:
OICW grenade = 20x88mm
.500 S&W Magnum = 12.7x53mm
12 Gauge, 2 3/4" = 18.5x70mm

Oh and BTW, that underbarrel "grenade launcher" on the Marines' Pulse Rifles in Aliens was in fact a chopped up Remington 870 shotgun. It held two (that's 2) 12 Gauge, 2 3/4" rounds in its tubular magazine.

QUOTE (Seige)

Actually, if you check page 283 of the BBB, minigrenades can be armed and thrown manually if the PC makes an Electronics B/R (6) test.

Don't try this at home, kids. If there's a way to blow the fuck out of yourself that better proves Darwin's theory of Natural Selection, I have yet to hear about it.

Posted by: Siege Nov 26 2003, 07:34 AM

Well, yes -- I didn't say it was a bright idea. Just that you could do it.

-Siege

Edit: That's what we need: an exploding smiley!

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Nov 26 2003, 10:15 AM

QUOTE (Raygun)

Don't try this at home, kids. If there's a way to blow the fuck out of yourself that better proves Darwin's theory of Natural Selection, I have yet to hear about it.

Well, there's always http://www.darwinawards.com/darwin/darwin2000-04.html...

I've divided mininades into 20mm and 40mm in my games. There are no UB 40mm GLs with magazines of any kind, and the largest 20mm ones house 6 (a la OICW). I'm just assuming that explosives will have advanced sufficiently in the meantime that 20mm nades will be about as effective as current 40mm's. The 40mm's, then, are quite

Posted by: cykotek Nov 26 2003, 12:45 PM

I've always seen them in the ~20mm range (i.e., a 10-12 guage shotgun shell).

As for the 'manual arming' rules, I've allowed an adept with Missile Mastery to throw mini-grenades without prior arming. Most launched grenades today are spin-armed (they have to spin a certain number of times at a certain speed before they arm). In my mind, an adept with missile mastery could easily reach those requirements. Besides, it makes for cool imagery, which is always good in my book

Posted by: El_Machinae Nov 26 2003, 12:59 PM

Well, they're awfully tiny. Considering the MGL has a conceal rating of 6 ... That's six minigrenades in a size more concealable than some light pistols.

Posted by: kevyn668 Nov 26 2003, 01:55 PM

excellet. ::rubs hands together:: Thank you to everyone.

QUOTE

El_Machinae Posted on Nov 26 2003, 12:59 PM
Well, they're awfully tiny. Considering the MGL has a conceal rating of 6 ... That's six minigrenades in a size more concealable than some light pistols

El Machinae: Good point about the conceal rating. That could be just another SR snafu. Then again, in SR3 the Remington Roomsweeper has a conceal of 6 and that thing holds six rounds. Which makes a hell of a lot more sense than a coneal of 8...meh, who knows?

About the pistol grip thing....oops. You guys are right. It does look like a bullpup Glock. Sorry, I guess I got carried away.
Ditto the Ares Antioch.

I came to the shotgun shell size minigrenade the same way most of you did: The Colonial Marine Pulse Rifle mixed w/ a pinch of common sense and a dash of spatial relations. And I definitely agree about the illustrations being bullshit. Which is a shame, really. I like to know what my char's guns look like. It A) increases the "coolness" factor and B) helps with coordinating my outfits.

IIRC, there was a buzz a while back about the German sourcebooks containing pictures of all the equipment. Any truth to this? Are they any good? is it worth trying to track down?

As it stands now, I use what few good pics there are and a healthy dose of pics from Rayguns's site (which is OUTSTANDING, btw). Between that and using a little Google Fu to track down gun manufactures I feel I have it pretty much covered but you never know....

Posted by: Raygun Nov 26 2003, 08:05 PM

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)

Well, there's always http://www.darwinawards.com/darwin/darwin2000-04.html

Well shit. I think you got me there.

Posted by: Frag-o Delux Nov 26 2003, 09:22 PM

In Fields of Fire they have a picture with several grenades in it, that look like Frisbees, hirse shoes, and a whole bunch of other things. That is for you guys looking for something in Shadowrun that says grenades look like frisbees.

Posted by: BitBasher Nov 26 2003, 10:04 PM

We know what those are, and I posted it above already, they are aerodynamic throwing grenades.