Printable Version of Topic

Click here to view this topic in its original format

Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Target Number Modifiers

Posted by: OurTeam Nov 26 2003, 10:55 AM

Last night in a fight
I fired my weapon at extreme range (TN 9)
with my 6 boxes physical (+3)
and my 6 boxes stun (+3)
While astrally perceiving (+2)
and maintaining 3 spells (+6)
I ran over difficult ground (+6)
to where I was behind 75% cover (+3)
with 5 melee or blocking opponents within 1 meter (+10)
against a target who had run (+2)
while invisible (+8 )
and concealed by a spirit (+6)
and in complete darkness (+8 )
to behind a car providing 75% cover (+6)
whose exhaust covered him in heavy smoke (+6)
but whose headlights glared at me (+2)
so I made a called shot (+4)
even though I had to default to attribute (+4)
to fire my vindicator minigun's
15 shots with no recoil comp (+30)
though dwarf am I with heavy weapon (+4)
in my off hand (+4)
while confused by a spirit (+6)
in a Chaotic World Spell (+6)
facing a Flash-Pak (+4)
after the HMG in my right hand (+2 dual firearms)
had missed someone else (+2 second target)
with its 10 uncompensated rounds (+20 recoil).

My GM said, OK, TN 166.

My highest roll was a seven, so I asked my GM
if I could use a 1st edition rule, pretty please.

He said OK, just this once.

So I spent two Karma and purchased a success
and blew the sucker to kingdom come.

Posted by: Traks Nov 26 2003, 11:01 AM

Pretty high
And no, you wouldn't get autosuccess for 2 karma at my table.

I admit that once player tried to get over 96 TN and of course rolled nothing.
On another hand, different player manages to get 12-14 with rolling 4-6 dice pretty often. He is just lucky bastard, not cheater. But he gets to know too many things and too fast *sigh*

Nice rhyme, btw

Posted by: Lilt Nov 26 2003, 11:09 AM

Yowzer

Must remember to say no if my players ask to use 1st ed rules... Or yes if they really f**king need it and I'm trying desperately not to kill them all.

In a game last sunday I actually made a pray roll (on my char's religion skill) to attempt to invoke the hand of his god. I don't know if it's actually going to save us, but it did do something even though it seemed less than helpful (the lake which our stone sky-ship was falling towards drained)

(I'd like to point-out that it wasn't DnD, it was a friend's home-grown system)

Posted by: Sphynx Nov 26 2003, 11:37 AM

Well, since the book says that 10+ is 'nearly impossible' we just never put a TN over 12. In your 166 case, the TN would have been 12 (only an insane GM would count up all the negatives to come up with a TN of 166).

Highest TN I ever had to roll was a 24 on a RadioShack Tortoise without a datajack, and I had a computer skill of 4 and no pool to add in from.

Sphynx

Posted by: Traks Nov 26 2003, 11:43 AM

QUOTE (Sphynx)

Well, since the book says that 10+ is 'nearly impossible' we just never put a TN over 12.

And using at least 18 dice as your team usually does (from what you are telling here, not by personal experience), no wonder you have successes so often.

Man, I would be going around with full auto shooting and TN12.
Just hop fire from one enemy to another, spending not too much on each.

Posted by: Sphynx Nov 26 2003, 12:19 PM

Traks: I honestly have no clue what you're talking about, sorry (where did you hear we have so many successes? I don't even recall the last time a TN 12 was made...). I think you're trying to flame me (not really sure) and doing so without even taking the time to look or think before you speak.

Play to a 150 or 250 karma once and see how many dice you can roll in your speciality. And even then, TN 12 is nearly impossible (unless you're playing the 50+ skill Adept character of course)

Sphynx

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Nov 26 2003, 12:26 PM

QUOTE (Sphynx)

Play to a 150 or 250 karma once and see how many dice you can roll in your speciality. And even then, TN 12 is nearly impossible (unless you're playing the 50+ skill Adept character of course)

Uhh, no. With 18 dice, you've got a 40% chance of rolling a 12 (1 - (35/36)^18). With 36 dice, 64% with is almost the same as rolling 3 or more with 1 die. Heck, even with "just" 10 dice, you've got a 25% chance of getting a 12 at least once.

Posted by: Earthwalker Nov 26 2003, 12:30 PM

There is definatly some justification for not applying some modifiers and of course th 166 example was just being over the top.

We did have a situation of an unaugumented character trying to shoot someone at medium range with a pistol. It was late at night with cloud cover in the barrens so the light was poor. it was raining heavily and the target was using a flash pak.

Target numbers were

Base 5
+6 (light)
+4 (Rain)
+4 (flash pak)
-1 (laser sight)

Total target number - 18

Now if the same guy closed his eyes and shot at the place he hear the splashing

Base 5
+8 blind fire

Total target number 13

Now it is of course better just to close your eyes and shoot. Of course the target numbers only got that high as the shooter was unauged. Add in themo eyes and flare comp and a smart gun link and its.

Base 5
+4(light)
+0 (rain)
+2(flash pak)
-2(smart gun)

Total target number 9

Of course I havent my books here and cant remember the light mods for themo cyber.

Posted by: Sphynx Nov 26 2003, 12:37 PM

Ok, Austere, try reading what I wrote. I didn't say crap about 18 dice being nearly impossible. I said 150 to 250 karma characters still being nearly impossible (as they won't have that many dice in their speciality). Most will maybe have a skill of 12 (probably lower). Even if you get 12 dice, that's a 30.666 % chance, at 10 (a more common number at that karma level) it's less than 25% chance. With how often TN's of 12+ come up (that should be kinda rare...) your chances of rolling a 12 on the roll that needs a 12 is nearly impossible.

Sphynx

Posted by: Traks Nov 26 2003, 12:39 PM

QUOTE (Sphynx)

Traks: I honestly have no clue what you're talking about, sorry (where did you hear we have so many successes?

And even then, TN 12 is nearly impossible (unless you're playing the 50+ skill Adept character of course)

Sphynx

Well, yeah, I guess I was flaming a little.
But there was also constructive criticism inside.

I told not 18 successes, but 18 Dice. Your (not those of my players) starting chars usually roll at least 12 dice, if not more. And Austere pointed out perfectly. If you use 12 dice and always TN12, with couple of tries you will succeed always. Even when jumping in air with a bike (without any bike skill) and shooting a weapon you have no skill at, at bad guy which has body covered for 9/10 and dealing deadly damage. Too much of heroism and feeling of rule "the harder it is, the more likely good guy will pull it off"

Earthwalker - I think that yes, vision modifiers should not be over +8 as for blindfight. Just houserule it to sane numbers

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Nov 26 2003, 01:21 PM

QUOTE (Sphynx)

Ok, Austere, try reading what I wrote.

Am I allowed to answer: "Ok, Sphynx, try reading what I wrote."? No? Darn.

You said TN 12 is nearly impossible, unless you've got 50+ dice. I proved that is not the case.

I think very high TNs are most likely coming up when you're shooting someone, where you need a whopping skill of 5(!) to get 10 dice (assuming you have at least a mediocre CP of 5).

Skill 9 + CP9 (the street sammies in my game started at 350 Karma with BeCKS and will be at that level once they get to ~500 karma, while Starting Char + 150 would normally be closer to 600) is 18 dice, and like I said, at that point TN 12 is nowhere near impossible.

Now, a max TN of 18 might work, with an 8% chance of pulling it off with 18 dice. However, I'm not very likely to drop my max TN from the 36 where it is now. If someone rolls 6 6's in a row, they deserve whatever they were going for, but 30s come up too often for my liking...

Posted by: Sphynx Nov 26 2003, 02:02 PM

Trak... I don't even know where you get that my players start with 12 dice. Only one even started with a skill over 6 at char-gen (the physical adept with the swords). Please point me to where that is not the case... you can see the starting characters at http://shadowrun.i-sphynx.com/orig_characters.htm. All except Cronus (who will be our GM's PC when I take over the game first weekend of January).

I appreciate that people are annoyed that I play 'power' games, but at least keep the fact straight on how 'power' gaming they are. You're way off on the numbers.

Austere. I agree that 18 is better if I want to keep things 'impossible' that are rated as impossible, and if I ever go for a grittier game, will definitely do that. However, 12 is perfect BECAUSE of the type of game we play. Spending 3 karma pool to make sure you get a 12 is part of the fun. Spending 3 karma pool and still failing on 2 rerolls because of an insane TN kinda convinces alot of players to not spend karma pool for 'cool' effects. I think 12 is perfect, even if the base percentange is 25+%.

Sphynx

PS. And actually, you ARE allowed to reply in that manner, even though I may seem annoyed, I'm never really bothered by flame comments, I just wanna know that's what they are so I can flame back a bit without sounding like I took the offensive. Sorry if I seemed too offensive in my reply.

Posted by: Earthwalker Nov 26 2003, 02:05 PM

Yeah most of the time we do cap the limit of vision mods people recieve as anything about +8 is worse then just closing your eyes and shooting. Of course thats just for vision, recoil and cover would add to this.

And is it me or would the shooter with a minigun in one hand and a HMg in the other just be better off firing them both into the area the bad guy is and letting suppersion fire do the work ?

Posted by: mfb Nov 26 2003, 02:40 PM

nice, OurTeam, but haiku is only three lines and seventeen syllables.

my TN last night
was one hundred and sixty
six. that was teh suck.

Posted by: kevyn668 Nov 26 2003, 03:40 PM

QUOTE

Play to a 150 or 250 karma once and see how many dice you can roll in your speciality. And even then, TN 12 is nearly impossible (unless you're playing the 50+ skill Adept character of course)

Sphynx

poor Sphynx....

Just kidding.

Really, you do take a whole lotta crap 'round these parts....

Stay strong! Don't let The Man get you down. Er...more down than you are. The dwarf thing, I mean.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Nov 26 2003, 03:58 PM

No worries Sphynx. I can see how capping TN at 12 might be good in a game where heroic stunts are encouraged. I get a bit irritated sometimes, but I calm down almost as quickly...

Posted by: Lindt Nov 26 2003, 04:03 PM

Sadly, a number of those mods dont stack I think. Like the invis, conceled, smoke, with cover. And I wanna know how (by cannnon) you could fire a minigun with one hand (not on a tripod, there is no recoil comp)

Posted by: Siege Nov 26 2003, 04:14 PM

Well, you could do it -- but I'd like to see the mechanic for "missing limb due to minigun recoil".

-Siege

Posted by: Game2BHappy Nov 26 2003, 04:20 PM

QUOTE (Lindt)

I definitely agree on not stacking the visibility mods ... if they get worse than blind fire we just use blind fire mods.

As far how to fire a minigun with one hand: If he has a Body of 8+ and Strength of 8+ he can attempt to shoot the minigun with one hand and a modifier. (At least with my interpretation of the rules on p. 99, CC)

As to how effective he is ... well I think the +30-something mods take care of that.

Posted by: spotlite Nov 26 2003, 04:23 PM

QUOTE (Lindt)

I was just thinking that very same thing. Anyone wanna take a crack at which ones don't stack?

Posted by: Zazen Nov 26 2003, 05:31 PM

QUOTE (Earthwalker)

We did have a situation of an unaugumented character trying to shoot someone at medium range with a pistol. It was late at night with cloud cover in the barrens so the light was poor. it was raining heavily and the target was using a flash pak.

Target numbers were

Base 5
+6 (light)
+4 (Rain)
+4 (flash pak)
-1 (laser sight)

Flash paks actually help in dark situations, negating the poor lighting and imposing only a +2 for the flash pak.

That'd make it a TN 10.

Posted by: Dende Nov 26 2003, 06:57 PM

Well to start:
Tn of 7 NOT 9 for Extreme range -2
The 6 boxes physical AND stun? Realistically if you have a huge wound, that bump on the head isn't going be bothering you. -3
Astral Perception to see the guy would negate a lot of the visibility mods, which shouldn't stack anyway. So invisible is negated, concealed by a spirit, well since it would be visible on the plane, I suppose leave that one there. Complete darkness negated. -16
Exhaust wouldn't be visible on the plane and we have hit -6, to be an ass I suppose the GM could make it 2 worse...but not a full 6...so -4
Glare would also negate the lighting negative by providing this, thought at extreme range of a gun that large...I doubt you would see them at all, no negated -2
15 shots no recoil comp...moving, from a gun this large...a +30...I dunno, I will leave it but shit...
Confused by a spirit? In Chaotic World...
Flash pak again negates the darkness, but this you may be able to see. So I will leave this on here.
HMG in main hand...the offhand modifier covers anything else in the other hand...only the recoil adds(the way I think it works, I could be off there) another -2.
2nd target, I will leave, and 10 uncompensated rounds...No, I think the +30 to using the gun is enough.Realistically a gun can only be so hard to fire before you say, no you just plain can't do it, target numbers or otherwise. Assuming allowing the full 30 before, no way is there gonna be a total of 50 because of the gun...If you have 50 from the gun alone...why bother? I say -20 as the +30 is plenty for a gun mod...

The way I call it: At most 115 but really if you have more than a +50 you shouldn't be able to do it at all..even with a cap of rolling a 24 or 36...that assumes you can do it. this situation just can't.

I appreciat4e you were making it as bad as humanly possible for sake of the tale...but don't strecth it. A 50 is huge...a 166 is rediculous.
A called shot, yeah...why? It should still stack, but come on. Defaulting to attribue firing a gun like this, how and why? Obviously you are a mage, why use a gun like this? that is horrible...but since you are, leave it for now. Okay one handed was bad enough, but offhand?
Why does dwarf with heavy weapon give a +4? Because I don't know the rule I will leave this one alone.

Posted by: Zazen Nov 26 2003, 07:03 PM

He's defaulting, so he can't take the TN 9 extreme-range shot even in full daylight with a giant glowing arrow pointing to a stationary, aircraft carrier-sized target.

Posted by: OurTeam Nov 26 2003, 07:19 PM

Zazen Wins. You can not default if the TN is 8 or higher before the defaulting modifier is applied. SR3 p. 85. I had forgotten this.

And I agree on all the limits on vision penalties described above, and the astral perception getting past most of them. Also, Called Shot can only be done with a weapon capable of SS, SA, or BF firing modes (Called Shots, SR3 p. 114).

I've been working on a TN calculator for ranged fire for a few days, and yesterday I clicked all the boxes that give penalties and none of the ones that give a benefit and was amazed at the result. I decided to post it here, along with a lot of modifiers that the calculator doesn't handle (it's for use by GMs that haven't yet memorized all the mods). And yes, mfb, I tried for a poetry affect, but I'm clearly no poet. I appreciate the vote of confidence though.

The discussion (on another thread) of TN penalties due to Glare, Thermal Smoke, and White Noise came from observations made while trying to program the rules for Visibility into the calculator. I'll post the calculator soon.

Posted by: thunderchild Nov 27 2003, 06:46 AM

(im going to interject first up and let you know that you actualy used IMHO 3 complex actions IN ONE PHASE, you ran to cover, fired your hmg for a 10 round FA burst, then fired your vindicator, i scrubbed the firing of the hmg)

I fired my weapon at long range (TN 6) ( extreme is at 900+ meters for a vindicator, you couldnt realisticly see them at that range)

with my 6 boxes physical (+3)
and my 6 boxes stun (+3)

(ok first of all i find it hard to believe your doing anything buy lying in a pool of your own blood atm, but for the sake of argument ok)

While astrally perceiving (+2) (all visibility mods removed cause your viewing in the astral, glare and flashbangs mean shit all)

and maintaining 3 spells (+6)
I ran over difficult ground (+6)
to where I was behind 75% cover (+3)
with 5 melee or blocking opponents within 1 meter (+10)

against a target who had run ( had run not is running, he is either taking cover or running, not both)

and concealed by a spirit (+6)
to behind a car providing 75% cover (+6)
so I made a called shot (+4)
even though I had to default to attribute (+4)
to fire my vindicator minigun's 15 shots with no recoil comp (+30)
though dwarf am I with heavy weapon (+4)
in my off hand (+4)
while confused by a spirit (+6)
in a Chaotic World Spell (+6)

Its now at 109, still next to impossible, but a whole lot less painful than 166.

Posted by: Diesel Nov 27 2003, 09:14 AM

I max the TNs in my game to 18. If they get three sixes in a row, for God's sake, someone wants them to succeed.

Except for body tests. Those have unlimited potential. As in no you cannot resist an orbital cow.

Posted by: Zazen Nov 27 2003, 09:38 AM

QUOTE (thunderchild)

Running isn't an action all by itself. You can take actions while running.

The rules for secondary firearms say that you may fire one pistol, SMG-class weapon, or crossbow in each hand. Using two full-auto bursts only takes one phase when this is the case. Assuming that the GM here is letting someone fire a vindicator this way, it's all one action.

Posted by: Dende Nov 27 2003, 05:58 PM

Assuming a GM is letting you roll at all, which he shouldn't. At a point any GM should look at you having taken 2 shots, holding 3 spells, trying to use a gun you can't in one hand, while running, etc etc...and just so "no." I don't care what kind of powered campaign you are running, even action heroes can only do so much before it just won't happen anymore. Picture that scene, 5 guys within one meter, you should be allowed to do anything else but get them off you, let alone firing into extreme range with your offhand using a weapon unskilled that should be 2 handed, which astrally perceiving...

Realize at some point, regardless of how you set your TNs and Maxes, some things just aren't possible.

Posted by: spotlite Nov 27 2003, 06:05 PM

QUOTE (Dende)

The 6 boxes physical AND stun? Realistically if you have a huge wound, that bump on the head isn't going be bothering you. -3

I disagree. The injuries should stack, because the Stun damage is just not the same kind of injury. It might be dizziness, nausea or any number of things not directly attributable to the wound (yes, you might get dizzy or nauseous if you have a bad wound. I know this). It could be as a result of nerve gas, or a kosh to the head. The serious wound might be a sucking chest wound, but it might be the sort of wound where you stick your hand in the hole and stagger off. The Stun on top might be making you so unbalanced or seeing double or whatever that you cannot even get up. A +3 to a basic Athletics or strength or whatever 4 test to get up is only 7s (rounded up to 8s in our game because a 7 is impossible to fail once you've got to 6), eminently do-able, whereas with a +6 it becomes a 10 which according to the rules is... that's right, 'nearly impossible'. I'd definately apply both.

But I am willing to concede it might be a house rule as I can't find anything which states the modifiers actually stack in the rules.

Posted by: Zazen Nov 27 2003, 06:18 PM

Page 126, SR3. They do stack.

Posted by: spotlite Nov 27 2003, 06:26 PM

Thank ye kindly, sir.

Posted by: thunderchild Nov 28 2003, 09:08 AM

QUOTE (Zazen)

QUOTE (thunderchild @ Nov 27 2003, 01:46 AM)

Any gm who lets you run for cover over dificult ground and go for cover without atleast making it a simple action needs to be analy penetrated with a potted cactus.

Posted by: Traks Nov 28 2003, 09:15 AM

QUOTE (Dende)

let alone firing into extreme range with your offhand using a weapon unskilled that should be 2 handed, which astrally perceiving...

Realize at some point, regardless of how you set your TNs and Maxes, some things just aren't possible.

Nah. The worst part is letting you do anything for 2 Karma cost.
But their game, their rules. Not that I approve them.

Posted by: OurTeam Nov 28 2003, 09:27 AM

QUOTE (Traks)

But their game, their rules. Not that I approve them.

I'm sorry if anyone thought I was being serious...

Posted by: thunderchild Nov 28 2003, 09:42 AM

QUOTE (OurTeam)

QUOTE (Traks)

But their game, their rules. Not that I approve them.

I'm sorry if anyone thought I was being serious...

Well, I dont think anyone took it as genuinely serious, you were saying "how bad can it get" I was saying "not quite that bad"

but your point is still valid, even without the hmg and the running your still looking at high double digits for a TN.

Posted by: Zazen Nov 28 2003, 06:01 PM

QUOTE (thunderchild)

Any gm who lets you run for cover over dificult ground and go for cover without atleast making it a simple action needs to be analy penetrated with a potted cactus.

I don't, they can do whatever they want while they run. If they want to play Game Boy while running for cover, that's fine with me.

Yeah, I might require a balance check in the situation described in this post. He can still pull a trigger if he wants, though.

Posted by: thunderchild Nov 29 2003, 07:53 AM

QUOTE (Zazen)

QUOTE (thunderchild @ Nov 28 2003, 04:08 AM)

Any gm who lets you run for cover over dificult ground and go for cover without atleast making it a simple action needs to be analy penetrated with a potted cactus.

Well bend over, ITS CACTUS TIME!

Seriously though, Running I have no problem with, but running over dificult ground AND going to cover as a free action? your a generous man, even with the balance test.

Posted by: Zazen Nov 29 2003, 02:16 PM

QUOTE (thunderchild)

Seriously though, Running I have no problem with, but running over dificult ground AND going to cover as a free action?

Nope, not even a free action!

Posted by: OurTeam Nov 29 2003, 06:21 PM

Thunderchild and Zazen, you guys may simply disagree over how much it takes to "get behind cover". The book, of course, indicates that movement is a possibility for every conscious player every Initiative Pass, regardless of whether the player is using simple or complex actions, or even whether they get an action.

In my original post I was simply intending the movement to end behind something that gave cover. A vehicle, a concrete pillar, the edge of a security door... something like that. In a case like that I do not count it as any sort of action. Falling Prone in such a location is, of course, a free action. Many sorts of "going to cover" would involve an action. For example, opening a security door in order to hide behind it.

Posted by: Cain Nov 29 2003, 10:04 PM

Entertaining poem, but here's a real story for you. This one's due to appear in the CLUE files, it's that scary. The TN isn't that huge, but remember that this *really happened* in a game.

I'm GMing again, and the mission is to take out a heavily-secured facility. Now, they're getting paid to cause heavy damage and carnage, so they go in packing heavy, knowing the opposition will be just as well-armed. Since they need to raze the place, they even brought satchel charges; research has revealed the walls are all heavily reinforced, so extras are packed.

Things are rough, but they're still going well, up until this point, when the oppostion barricaded a hallway.

Let me skip ahead to the punchline:

Me: (to mage) Let me get this straight. You're in a two-meter wide, ten-meter long hallway. The barricade is about 7 meters in front of you. You're sustaining a Levitate Self and Improved Invisibility spell, you have a moderate Physical and a Serious Stun wound, lighting is bad and you have no vision enhancements, and you want to fly over the barricade, and throw a grenade?

And it only gets better from there:

Mage: That's right. I got a frag left, it'll mess them up.

Me: *pause* Ohhhhkay. You're only dropping it, so I'll go against base TN of 2....(calculated modifiers) Target number 17. You do have Thrown Weapon, don't you?

Mage: Yup. Lessee... I got it at one.

Everyone: *pause*

Me: Are you really sure about this?

Mage: Yup. I'll drop it, and fly right past. I can spare one from my combat pool.

Me: Ohhhhkay.

Mage (rolls): oh.

Sammie: What??

Mage: I rolled all ones.

Sammie: Spend some karma pool, doofus!

Mage: I'm out of Karma pool. I spent it to resist drain.

Me: Well then. (I start pantomiming) You grasp the grenade in your left hand, pull the pin, and throw. An object goes flying. Then you look down at your left hand, and have a second to yelp.

Surprisingly enough, the mage managed to survive this; the sammie, some distance away, did so as well.

Posted by: thunderchild Nov 30 2003, 08:05 AM

QUOTE (Zazen)

QUOTE (thunderchild @ Nov 29 2003, 02:53 AM)

Seriously though, Running I have no problem with, but running over dificult ground AND going to cover as a free action?

Nope, not even a free action!

MAYBE if they declared they were running LAST round and getting behind cover was as simple as ducking behind a parked car, I MIGHT let it go for nothing. But probably a Free action ATLEAST would need to be spent.

Posted by: Shanshu Freeman Nov 30 2003, 11:52 AM

What's with all the vision modifiers when he's already astrally percieving in the first place?

Posted by: Zazen Nov 30 2003, 11:09 PM

QUOTE (thunderchild)

I don't think anyone said they were ducking, just running. What I mean by "running behind cover" is when the running happens to interpose a piece of cover between himself and his opponent.

Posted by: thunderchild Dec 1 2003, 10:22 AM

QUOTE (Zazen)

QUOTE (thunderchild @ Nov 30 2003, 03:05 AM)

I don't think anyone said they were ducking, just running. What I mean by "running behind cover" is when the running happens to interpose a piece of cover between himself and his opponent.

Ok, the threat of cactus has been removed!

what i had in my head was picking their way over shitty rough terain and then vaulting over a car or something.

If they were already running... i could let that go for free.