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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Anyone recognize these guns?

Posted by: Phaeton Nov 27 2003, 01:31 AM

http://smurgen.kj-soft.com/rick/pub/1069043396832.jpg

http://smurgen.kj-soft.com/rick/pub/1069053440170.jpg

If anyone could point out if they've seen these before and where, PLEASE TELL ME!!!!111 Thank you.

~Phaeton

Posted by: Raptor1033 Nov 27 2003, 02:03 AM

how would you hold on to that first one? the thing sticking out the back would hinder a proper grip. both were probably normal handguns before they were modifed for either a movie or by someone with waaaay too much time on their hands. the first is probably based on any given modern smith & wesson pistol and the second looks to be loosely based on the Olympic Arms OA98. both modified with semicool looking grips that are completely unusable. if you wanna browse a place with a fair amount of pics go http://www.kitsune.addr.com/Firearms/Firearms.htm.

Posted by: Phaeton Nov 27 2003, 02:05 AM

I have no idea...The first one resembles a weapon from the Ghost in the Shell manga, though. Especially the weird ammo clip.

Posted by: Fix-it Nov 27 2003, 02:08 AM

Something tells me those aren't real guns...

I'm probably wrong though. so don't mind me.

Posted by: Phaeton Nov 27 2003, 02:20 AM

I doubt they are. But, if they're from any movie/game/anime/TV show/manga/comic book/movie/whatever, I want to make them to Shadowrun stats. I just need to know what they are for purposes of what to name it. Ah well.

Posted by: Crusher Bob Nov 27 2003, 02:30 AM

The first gun is for GITS, I would guess the second one is too. http://www.bulletsofautumn.com/shirow-art/seburo.html might give you a hand.

Posted by: Chodav Nov 27 2003, 02:32 AM

The first one looks more Beretta-ish than S&W-ish, though it's a fake in any event. The second has an ounce more credibility - it looks like an M-16 family variant . . . Unless, of course, you know how the gas-operated recoil system in an M-16 variant works, at which point you realize it's a fake, too.

Real, fake, who cares? This whole forum is devoted to a game, after all! The first one looks grossly unbalanced and difficult to wield. It has no intrinsic "pointability". Firing it would not be natural or reflexive, and that's what ergonomic firearm design is all about. For that matter, it's ugly.

Now, number two looks just plain cool! Maybe something in the SMG family. Range and damage are more-or-less standardized for weapon families . . . ammo capacity would be 20 if that were an M-16 variant, so low by SMG standards . . . weight (assuming polymer construction on non-mechanical components) would be on the low side, too - three-ish?

Do you own Cannon Companion? The firearm design rules are a bit cumbersome, but fun all the same. You could have that new toy stat'ed out in no time!

(Foregrip provides -1 recoil compensation, which a lightweight like number two needs baaaaad.)

Posted by: Hero Nov 27 2003, 02:33 AM

Those are the sickest firearms I have seen in a long while, both would be held much in the fashion of the FN P90. I think those would be best converted using Spudmans FCG, but would be possible with the FCG in Cannon Companion.

Posted by: Lilt Nov 27 2003, 02:39 AM

I don't recognise them, but I could try and help you convert them.

The first one is presumably some form of particularily heavy pistol. Give it a high power and an extended clip. Probably a heavy barrel too.

The second looks like a smg with a foregrip. Give it a pit of increaced concealability too.

As they both look pretty f**king shweet I'd give them both smartlink-2s because I can.

Posted by: Phaeton Nov 27 2003, 02:50 AM

QUOTE (Crusher Bob)

The first gun is for GITS, I would guess the second one is too. http://www.bulletsofautumn.com/shirow-art/seburo.html might give you a hand.

...Sweet mother of GOD, I love that man Shirow...

Posted by: Voorhees Nov 27 2003, 03:19 AM

The first one is a Seburo SMG, a nonexistant gun developed for Manga.

The second one is an assault rifle, probably seburo as well.

Seeing as how they aren't real guns, I'd just give them both thirty round clips, make the SMG 9mm, and the Assault Rifle 5.56mm. Also, give them whatever names you want.

Posted by: Voorhees Nov 27 2003, 03:21 AM

Also, you'd be able to hold the first one quite easily. It appears the gun looks something like this from the top:

____/

With the clip attaching the the forward slash, and the grip being on the straight part, making the gun holdable.

Posted by: Phaeton Nov 27 2003, 03:43 AM

QUOTE (Voorhees)

That's one weird SMG. And DUDE. The second one is TINY. Imagine how big your hand is. Imagine holding the gun. It's the size of an SMG...

Posted by: Phaeton Nov 27 2003, 03:46 AM

QUOTE (Voorhees)

9mm? Nah. Maybe a 5mm-range ammo. That DOESN'T have a relatively cruddy damage...

Posted by: Voorhees Nov 27 2003, 03:51 AM

How would you know how big it is? Theres nothing in the picture to reference it against.

Posted by: Voorhees Nov 27 2003, 03:52 AM

QUOTE

9mm? Nah. Maybe a 5mm-range ammo. That DOESN'T have a relatively cruddy damage...

Er, 9mm>5mm.

Posted by: Hasaku Nov 27 2003, 04:09 AM

QUOTE (Voorhees)

QUOTE

9mm? Nah. Maybe a 5mm-range ammo. That DOESN'T have a relatively cruddy damage...

Er, 9mm>5mm.

We can make some assumptions about size of the second gun from the magazine. If we assume it's firing NATO standard 5.56mm ammunition, then that is one hell of a small weapon. It's only got a barrel length a little longer than the cartridges fer chrissake! If you're planning to make those with firearm design rules, I'd say max levels of barrel reduction are a must. Does that automatically cause a power and range reduction? If not, slap those on too, beause there's no way those rounds are gonna get up to full speed in that thing or get enough spin to stabilize.

I'd give it maybe 6M base damage, SMG ranges if I'm feeling generous.

Posted by: Phaeton Nov 27 2003, 04:16 AM

QUOTE (Voorhees)

QUOTE

9mm? Nah. Maybe a 5mm-range ammo. That DOESN'T have a relatively cruddy damage...

Er, 9mm>5mm.

Beats armor, though. But doesn't do quite enough damage to do a nice number on someone. That's why I think the P90 and MP7 are interesting but not useful.

Posted by: Voorhees Nov 27 2003, 04:18 AM

Hmm, I didn't examine the second one too closely. That is a pretty short barrel. I'd agree with the 6M ruling, maybe even shorten the range to SMG or Shotgun plus some meters, or something like that.

Posted by: Voorhees Nov 27 2003, 04:20 AM

QUOTE

Beats armor, though. But doesn't do quite enough damage to do a nice number on someone. That's why I think the P90 and MP7 are interesting but not useful

These statements are true. Although the P90 fires pretty fast and has a huge clip, so you could rip someone up nice with it.

Posted by: Crusher Bob Nov 27 2003, 05:39 AM

IIRC the seburo smg used 4 or 5 mm AP rounds, and was supposed to be one of the few SMGs that was really useful against a combat borg. Dealing with full borgs who don't ahve too many vital parts, don't feel pain, and are armored up is going to be a problem...

Posted by: Fix-it Nov 27 2003, 06:10 AM

bah. I still prefer my trusty Hydra rocket pods.

Posted by: Phaeton Nov 27 2003, 06:20 AM

QUOTE (Fix-it)

bah. I still prefer my trusty Hydra rocket pods.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Nov 27 2003, 08:05 AM

Like people have said, they're real world guns with useless shit put on to make them look kewl. If you really wish to find out what pistol that is under all the crap in the first picture, browse http://www.securityarms.com/20010315/all.htm for a while, looking at trigger guards and safeties. Anyway, it's a Light Pistol with a sucky concealability and a rather high weight. Yay!

And the 2nd has been pretty much covered already. An M16 with just about everything stripped off, and then some useless crap has been slapped on. It is worth noting that it'd be a lot smaller still if you'd strip the useless crap off (mainly the carrying handle and the wavy rubber fore-end)... Like Hasaku said, 6M and SMG ranges should do it -- too bad all AR carbines are like that already in canon. 2kg would be plenty weight for it, since a La France M16K (which still has the telescopic stock and a slightly longer barrel) weighs 2.5kg.

I do hope that the "Seburo SMG" is not the first one ([Edit]Bah, someone already said it is...[/Edit]), because that sure as hell can't be any combat-borg-killer weapon. A good anti-armor small arm has to be long and heavy. Preferably 600mm+ barrel, enough space behind the magazine (if the first one was an actual weapon, it wouldn't work at all because there's no space for a bolt, let alone a decent recoil spring), etc.

I'd rather use something like http://www.securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/1100/1137.htm, or some other bullpup, semi-auto, .50BMG rifle, loaded with http://www.barrettrifles.com/test_explosive.html against an opponent with heavy armor and no vital parts. A SMG is truly the wrong tool for the right job.

Posted by: Raptor1033 Nov 27 2003, 08:21 AM

for the base gun of the second gun go http://www.olyarms.com/usa.html then click on retail catalog, ar/pcr firearms and kits and it's the OA-98 pistol, second to last on the list.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Nov 27 2003, 09:01 AM

If it is the http://www.olyarms.com/popup/oa98.html, then either there are different models of the OA-98 available that don't look much like that in the Retail Catalog, or whoever made the second gun did a lot more work than he would've had to. The finish is (slightly) different, the mag well is different, what little you can see of the whole receiver assembly is different. Unless you know for a fact that the gun underneath that crap is the OA-98, I rather think that they've just cut most of the barrel, fore-end and the whole stock out of any old M16, M4 or M177.

And BTW, could someone with more intimate knowledge of the M16-style trigger group tell me whether the second gun has a Safe-Semi-3rnd Burst group, a Safe-Semi-Full group or a Safe-Semi? That would help immensely in figuring out the gun underneath.

Posted by: Crusher Bob Nov 27 2003, 09:01 AM

Unfortunately, you can't carry your M82 with you all the time (nor get it into the car/house/cave/whatever). The real question should be: 'is there a better way of making an anti-borg gun in an smg sized package than one firing small caliber, high-AP rounds?'

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Nov 27 2003, 09:05 AM

Hey, the M82A2 is only 1.4 meters long!

Yeah, it's not very handy in tight quarters. If I couldn't carry that, I'd go with a http://matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/firearms/assault/g3ka4.html with very light APDS rounds. If that too was too big and there were combat borgs around, I simply wouldn't go there...

Posted by: Siege Nov 27 2003, 04:24 PM

QUOTE (Voorhees)

QUOTE

Beats armor, though. But doesn't do quite enough damage to do a nice number on someone. That's why I think the P90 and MP7 are interesting but not useful

These statements are true. Although the P90 fires pretty fast and has a huge clip, so you could rip someone up nice with it.

The P-90's primary selling feature (so I'm lead to believe) is the weapon's anti-body-armor capabilities.

The high magazine capacity is just an added plus, although I'm not entirely sure I like the idea of brass being ejected from the rear of the weapon.

-Siege

Posted by: Chodav Nov 27 2003, 05:43 PM

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)

And BTW, could someone with more intimate knowledge of the M16-style trigger group tell me whether the second gun has a Safe-Semi-3rnd Burst group, a Safe-Semi-Full group or a Safe-Semi? That would help immensely in figuring out the gun underneath.

It's a safe-semi group. Probably modified from an AR-15 - they're cheaper and easier to come by in the civilian world than anything in the M-16 family.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Nov 27 2003, 06:37 PM

If it's safe-semi, then modifying such a weapon from anything in the M16 family wouldn't make any sense in the first place, now would it?

Posted by: Crusher Bob Nov 28 2003, 02:25 AM

Heh, I want something like a TU-33 that is never safe

Posted by: Fix-it Nov 28 2003, 02:37 AM

QUOTE (Siege @ Nov 27 2003, 04:24 PM)

QUOTE (Voorhees @ Nov 27 2003, 04:20 AM)

QUOTE

Beats armor, though. But doesn't do quite enough damage to do a nice number on someone. That's why I think the P90 and MP7 are interesting but not useful

These statements are true. Although the P90 fires pretty fast and has a huge clip, so you could rip someone up nice with it.

Well, for one thing, you won't hit the guy next to you with your brass.

Hot brass down shirt=funny dance with loaded firearm.

Posted by: Siege Nov 28 2003, 03:50 AM

This is true, but an instinctive reaction is to bring the weapon to shoulder to aim -- which means if something blocks the ejection port, it could get unpleasent.

Since I've never actually held or used one, I can't speak to the practicality of the design but it looks good on paper. Especially if you're fighting aliens in full body armor

-Siege

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Nov 28 2003, 03:57 AM

If I were going to design the first one as a Shadowrun weapon using the Cannon Companion, I'd just design it as an assault rifle (sadly, the SMG doesn't allow the two following options) with the bullpup configuration and shortened barrel design features. Then I'd make to give it only the SA/BF modes and maybe add in one or two points of improved concealability, shock pads and a gas-vent II and then have at it.

It's a cool-looking weapon, and style is everything in my book. I see nothing wrong with using a cool picture and making a perfectly rules-acceptable weapon out of it who's major perk will be it's relatively high Concealability.

Posted by: Traks Nov 28 2003, 08:27 AM

Guy with a sword looks even cooler.
Give all your players swords and let them charge the heavily-armed-top-of-the-art cyborg

But yes, those weapons look horrible to shoot with.
Second one maybe could be usable, but pistol is a big no-no.
Unless there is some alien technology which allows to fire with antimatter rounds

Posted by: Sahandrian Nov 28 2003, 09:03 PM

QUOTE (Traks)

Unless there is some alien technology which allows to fire with antimatter rounds

...We have one of those in our games...

Posted by: Voorhees Nov 28 2003, 10:40 PM

Really? How much damage does it do? How much Antimatter does it fire with each shot?

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Nov 28 2003, 11:57 PM

500D, -1/1km if it's a whole bullet made of antimatter. And the explosion happens at the point in which the anti-matter bullet is created.

Posted by: Voorhees Nov 29 2003, 12:41 AM

QUOTE

500D, -1/1km

Sounds about right.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Nov 29 2003, 12:54 AM

QUOTE (Siege)

This is true, but an instinctive reaction is to bring the weapon to shoulder to aim -- which means if something blocks the ejection port, it could get unpleasent.

You can see where the ejection port is in http://world.guns.ru/smg/fn_p90_2.jpg picture. It looks like it's at least a good 10cm/4" from the end of the butt stock. In most situations there won't be anything there to block it if you're firing the weapon from the shoulder. Firing it while sitting might not be very good for your pants, though.

Posted by: Raygun Nov 29 2003, 12:58 AM

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)

If it is the http://www.olyarms.com/popup/oa98.html, then either there are different models of the OA-98 available that don't look much like that in the Retail Catalog, or whoever made the second gun did a lot more work than he would've had to.

And BTW, could someone with more intimate knowledge of the M16-style trigger group tell me whether the second gun has a Safe-Semi-3rnd Burst group, a Safe-Semi-Full group or a Safe-Semi? That would help immensely in figuring out the gun underneath.

I seriously doubt that it's a working OA-98. The barrel appears to be too short and there's also not enough room above it for the absolutely necessary recoil spring assembly (to avoid having the standard recoil spring buffer assembly stick out about seven inches behind the grip). The upper receiver also appears unusually small. I doubt that the thing fires real ammunition because in order to field-strip it, you'd have to remove that plastic foregrip every time. If it did fire, that foregrip would get real hot real fast and would likely warp or even melt off. It's probably just a model (I've seen this style before) or maybe even an Airsoft.

It is based on an M16 lower receiver, though. It's either a burst or full-auto trigger group (you can tell by the auto sear pin directly above the selector switch; semi-autos don't have it) can't tell which one for sure as the switch, in the safe position, covers the markings in the burst/auto position. 20 round magazine. The upper looks to me like it might be machined aluminum, with the plastic bits attached (carrying handle, foregrip, end cap, etc...). Anyone with an average machine shop could put something like that together fairly easily and attach it to a real M16 lower receiver. They could have used a real M16 lower and then attached that upper to it with the normal cross pins, or it could be a total plastic fabrication. Can't really tell either way, honestly. If there's a higher res image out there, I'd like to see it.

The other gun looks totally unreal. More than likely just a plastic model, though the trigger itself and the positions of the magazine release and the safety lever remind me somewhat of a walther PP, though I doubt that it is one.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Nov 29 2003, 01:05 AM

QUOTE (Raygun)

[All the stuff I wanted to hear, and a lot I didn't know I wanted to hear.]

Nice... So much for those two.

Posted by: Raygun Nov 29 2003, 01:24 AM

http://www.poseidon.co.jp/2F/2f.html. The first one is a "Seburo C-X" from Appleseed. (It actually is based off of the Walther PP. Damn I'm good.) And the second is a "Close Quarters Battle Weapon Type-0 'Raisen'," a Poseidon in-house model. It's an Airsoft.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Nov 29 2003, 01:25 AM

Posted by: Voorhees Nov 29 2003, 01:28 AM

I thought the first one looked kind of like a Walther. Man, screw the Seburo, I want this thing!

http://www.poseidon.co.jp/2F/rbm/rb1.html

Theres nothing in the world like existing guns with crazy barrel crap tacked on.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Nov 29 2003, 01:32 AM

QUOTE (Voorhees)

Theres nothing in the world like existing guns with crazy barrel crap tacked on.

http://www.poseidon.co.jp/2F/cthugha/cth01.html

[Edit]Wow, turned out to be a real anime-weapon bashfest.[/Edit]

Posted by: Voorhees Nov 29 2003, 01:37 AM

Hey, if there had never been guns with useless barrel crap tacked on, SR artists wouldn't have been able to rip off Robocop's gun for the Ares Predator, and then where would we be?

On a side note, what the hell is this thing?

http://www.poseidon.co.jp/5F/etogun/eto_1.html

Posted by: Phaeton Nov 29 2003, 01:37 AM

QUOTE (Raygun)

Yay for Raygun!

Posted by: Phaeton Nov 29 2003, 01:48 AM

All I have to say from looking at that page is that there IS such thing as compensating for something. Dayamn. Especially with Vash's gun (which has always been an overweighted piece of drek in my opinion), and Alucard's guns from Hellsing (really huge...) But then again, I suppose they're not SUPPOSED to be practical...But if I want to have a compensatory firearm, it had better at least be assault rifle-sized or larger!!

[rant]

...I am going to relieve my brain right here of something I'd like to say. I will keep it as non-flamey as possible. If I posted it at any of the other sites I go to people would probably tell me to p**s off.

...What the heck is it with people and anime?! I mean, sure, it's something new and different, but Jesus H. Christ and his dear father may-he-bless-us-all, it seems BLOODY IDIOTIC CRAZY AT TIMES!!! Everything is whacky, not enough seriousness, usually, and HALF THE WEAPONS ARE HUGEARSE COMPENSATION DEVICES!!!> #*U%J%*()@#JUhtm srososrko (50 Mp deleted)

[/rant]

...Um, sorry mods. I just sorta had to get that outta my system. I'll fix it if you want.

But yes. Big guns are good. Except when they're HORRIBLY impractical. Like Vash's gun.

Posted by: Voorhees Nov 29 2003, 01:52 AM

Vash's gun is incorrectly modeled in that...and I've always figured his gun was a bit large to be firing just .45 Colt.

Posted by: Fortune Nov 29 2003, 01:53 AM

QUOTE (Voorhees)

On a side note, what the hell is this thing?

Sold Out!

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Nov 29 2003, 01:59 AM

QUOTE

...and HALF THE WEAPONS ARE HUGEARSE COMPENSATION DEVICES!!!

Well, most ofit does comes from Japan. Popular public opinion is that they tend to have a lot to compensate for, so it makes sense.

Posted by: Phaeton Nov 29 2003, 02:02 AM

QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein @ Nov 28 2003, 08:59 PM)

QUOTE

...and HALF THE WEAPONS ARE HUGEARSE COMPENSATION DEVICES!!!

Well, most ofit does comes from Japan. Popular public opinion is that they tend to have a lot to compensate for, so it makes sense.

Fair enough. But dang. Vash's gun in .454 Casuli. Mmmmm...

Edit: Wait. Nevermind. There IS a reason for the thing's being so huge. My friend told me.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Nov 29 2003, 02:15 AM

But then the Desert Eagle (and everything else Magnum Research has done), LAR Grizzly (and everything else LAR has done), Barrett, etc. all come from the good ole US of A. And surely you guys have nothing to compensate for, eh?

I'll chalk the anime and anime guns thingies down to the japanese being insane, and when I say insane I mean frothy-mouthed, gibbering, absolutely f***ing apeshit. But in a good way.

Posted by: Phaeton Nov 29 2003, 02:18 AM

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator @ Nov 28 2003, 09:15 PM)

I'll chalk the anime and anime guns thingies down to the japanese being insane, and when I say insane I mean frothy-mouthed, gibbering, absolutely f***ing apeshit. But in a good way.

...That's more what I meant, I think, actually. Right on, Austere.

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Nov 29 2003, 02:19 AM

Yeah, at least Americans' work.

Posted by: Sahandrian Nov 29 2003, 02:30 AM

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)

500D, -1/1km if it's a whole bullet made of antimatter. And the explosion happens at the point in which the anti-matter bullet is created.

I based it on the Phoenix from Perfect Dark (since I already converted every other gun from that game), and needed it to go from SA normal shots to powerful SS explosive shots. So since this is alien technology and I can technobabble everything away, The normal rounds are plasma bolts, and for the explosive, it creates a small antimatter pellet (less than a millimeter in size) that is held in a magnetic sheath to prevent contact with the atmosphere. Or something along those lines.

Aliens built it, so it works. And make sure you never, ever roll all 1s when firing in explosive mode.

Posted by: Voorhees Nov 29 2003, 02:54 AM

Even a 1mm piece of antimatter would theoretically do a lot of damage... Like, 50D, -1/1km.

Also, I think that Anime is crazy because the Japanese are, in general, screwed up in the head. Anime sucks.

Posted by: Raygun Nov 29 2003, 04:38 AM

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)

Once you've figured out nuclear weapons and lasers that blow missiles out of the sky, all the rest is amusement, really. Kinda like jerking off for distance.

QUOTE (Phaeton)

Wait. Nevermind. There IS a reason for the thing's being so huge. My friend told me.

Not THAT huge. http://matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/firearms/pistol/tau_rb.html.

I'd really like to see someone push 60k psi (per shot) out of a top-loading revolver. I think the funniest part would be reconstructing their face after the cylinder flew out and smashed it. Gotta love that anime.

Posted by: Voorhees Nov 29 2003, 04:41 AM

Which anime is that?

...also, didn't the desert eagle originally come from Isreal? Wasn't it the IMI Desert Eagle, or am I badly mistaken?

Posted by: Raygun Nov 29 2003, 04:53 AM

You're absolutely correct about that. But every cartridge that it has been made to fire (.357 Mag, .41 Mag, .44 Mag, .440 COR-BON Mag and .50 Action Express) was developed in the US, so we really have no escape from the little dick insinuation there. Dang. *snap*

Anime in general, I meant. Trigun in particular, I guess. (I'm not a big fan either.)

Posted by: Voorhees Nov 29 2003, 04:57 AM

Well, the Trigun revolver fires .45 colt, which is a revolver round.

Anime does indeed, suck.

Posted by: Crusher Bob Nov 29 2003, 07:04 AM

According to some random site on the net, 1 gram of antimatter is about 9.0 x 10^13 Joules, (mult by two, I think, to represent the matter destroyed as well).

1 Megaton of TNT, the same site lists as 33.3 grams of antimatter into energy or 3 x 10^15 Joules (though once again, I think they are just talking about the anti-matter, an equal amount of matter would be liberated as well, thus you would only need half as much anti-matter they list to get a boom of that size).

So one mg of anti-matter + one mg of matter should be about 60 tons of TNT . Anyone want to check my math?

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Nov 29 2003, 10:21 AM

If 1 MT = 33.3grams of antimatter, then 1gram of both ~ 60,000 tons, assuming you've got everything else right. So, converting that to canon SR, 60,000,000^0.5 x 4 = 30983. 30983D, -4/m. Only the antimatter part would do 21908D, -4/m.

I could've sworn I read somewhere that Magnum Research came up with the concept of the Desert Eagle, which they then gave to IMI to refine, and then once it was almost ready MR took it back and did some finishing touches.

Or maybe that was just from one of the many, many firearms-related dreams I've had.

Anyway, at least the Big Fu... I mean Biggest Finest Revolver is still a Magnum Research original.

Posted by: Shockwave_IIc Nov 29 2003, 11:18 AM

QUOTE (Crusher Bob)

The first gun is for GITS, I would guess the second one is too. http://www.bulletsofautumn.com/shirow-art/seburo.html might give you a hand.

You sure? Im pretty certain Duenan is holding one on the cover of appleseed 4.

[EDIT] Just checked, Yup it's the same one[/EDIT]

Posted by: nezumi Nov 29 2003, 02:45 PM

Speaking for myself, anime, like american shows, really spans the gamut. I wasn't a big fan of Evangelion (if you're going to make a giant robot killer movie, make it realistic!) I'm watching Trigun now, but mostly because its cute and funny (I've never seen it before). Its silly to watch it for the action scenes. I used to love voltron when I was a kid : )

But there are some animes which I think are very well done. Disappeared or whatever (the girl who wanders into the ghost village) was neat just because it was incredibly creative, same goes for Princess Mononoke. They had good plot, real characters and were more original than most anything I can find domestically. I also liked FLCL, for similar reasons. I personally loved Cowboy Bebop (the series, didn't see the movie). It wasn't hugely unrealistic, the characters were fun, and the Japanese, unlike us westerners, know how to make a movie about heroic failure (which I really do enjoy periodically). So I think it just depends on what you watch and why you watch it : )

Posted by: Raygun Nov 30 2003, 07:02 PM

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)

I could've sworn I read somewhere that Magnum Research came up with the concept of the Desert Eagle, which they then gave to IMI to refine, and then once it was almost ready MR took it back and did some finishing touches.

Oh, hell. You're right. http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=4563937.WKU.&OS=PN/4563937&RS=PN/4563937. Bernard White. Magnum Research, Inc. Learn something new every day.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 30 2003, 07:25 PM

It does indeed span the gamut. Go watch Grave of the Fireflies. Then tell me anime sucks.
I'm tempted to give some players those guns. They'd be the ultimate weapons: anyone with a decent skill in any firearm has to roll a Willpower(8) test to not collapse laughing.

~J

Posted by: Phaeton Nov 30 2003, 07:53 PM

QUOTE (nezumi)

Eh. True. I like GitS and Akira myself. But maybe I'm just really frightened of Clamp-o-maniacs. Or maybe I just reaaaaaaally prefer sci-fi. Not sure.

Posted by: Shockwave_IIc Nov 30 2003, 08:14 PM

Myself i like also like GitS (both the film and graphic novel) And of Appleseed (though not the film, that sucked). Cyber city 808 and Akira (would love to run cyber gen with a bunch poeple that hasn't seen Akira, like thats gonna happen).

Currently making my way through through Man machine interface, hard work, though it's likely cos im reading it an issue at a time.

Im a big fan of Shirows work, got a lot of his art books and such.

Posted by: moosegod Dec 1 2003, 03:03 AM

Actually, this is one of the reasons I hate anime. The pure ridiculousness of the guns drives me away.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Dec 1 2003, 03:05 AM

Then try watching something that doesn't focus on the guns.

~J

Posted by: Fortune Dec 1 2003, 03:09 AM

Like all that tentacle stuff.

Posted by: moosegod Dec 1 2003, 03:12 AM

And the underage girls with huge boobs.

And the eyes. The EYES!

Posted by: Shockwave_IIc Dec 1 2003, 03:20 AM

QUOTE (Fortune)

Like all that tentacle stuff.

I'd stay well away from that myself.

If your wanting semi believeable manga then Ghost in the Shell (the movie and stand alone complexe) is good and IMO very shadowrunny. Appleseed is also good for the same reasons. But i find the best storys is actually manga as apposed to anime.

Posted by: Raygun Dec 1 2003, 03:22 AM

I thought some of you might be interested in seeing this if you haven't already. HK's new website has some good info on the http://www.hk-usa.com/pages/military-le/rifles-carbines/xm8.html, video included.

For those of you who don't know, the XM8 is most likely the next US assault rifle platform, the stand-alone version of the rifle developed for the XM29 Objective Individual Combat Weapon (OICW) due to be in service by 2009. Considering the scope of the project, the XM8 will likely wholly replace the M16/M4 series rifles in US miltary service. HK is already gearing up for production by building a manufacturing facility in Columbus, Georgia, which happens to be right next door to Fort Benning (a major US Army base).

One thing that interests me so far is that the XM8 does not (yet) appear to utilize the NATO STANAG 4179 magazine. It was a requirement of the OICW, but since they don't even mention it in the file, maybe they dropped it. Other than that, it appears that they've thought of just about everything for this thing, even caliber conversion, which is one issue I hope gets dealt with in the near future.

Posted by: Crusher Bob Dec 2 2003, 09:52 AM

I've seen a few reference to being able to change the magazine well too, but I don't see them on the site you brought up. I've also seen a ref to a new casing for 5.56 under development that is supposed to be much lighter (only retains the brass baseplate/extractor rim, the rest of the case being polymer. can anyone come up with more data?).

Posted by: Raygun Dec 2 2003, 11:29 PM

Yeah. HK was the company that pretty much made modular firearm design popular, so it would suprise me if they didn't offer a NATO magwell on the XM8. I know they developed one for the OICW project. What's weird to me is that it doesn't appear to be standard on the XM8.

I also recently heard something about a hybrid cartridge case for the 5.56x45mm, though I'll be damned if I can remember where. I know several different companies have been trying to develop a hybrid case for several different cartridges for quite a few years now without success.

The closest thing I could find out there is a Power Point document called http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2003smallarms/spieg.ppt at the DTIC/NDIA site which gives a basic outline of the whole concept.

Posted by: Phasma Felis Dec 2 2003, 11:44 PM

QUOTE (moosegod)

Actually, this is one of the reasons I hate anime. The pure ridiculousness of the guns drives me away.

QUOTE

Actually, this is one of the reasons I hate anime. The pure ridiculousness of the guns drives me away.

Yeah, and I hate all American TV because the physics in Star Trek are unrealistic.

What are you talking about? Anime is a style of animation which many different shows use. It is not a single genre in itself. If you don't happen to like that style of art, then say so, don't make ridiculous generalizations based on a tiny subset of all anime.

Posted by: Raygun Dec 3 2003, 12:10 AM

If you weren't a person who watched anime regularly, what do you think would you be led to believe?

Of course, you're right. Not all anime is the übertech, sniping-from-orbit-with-the-gun-that-turns-into-a-motorcycle, cute-innocent-looking-girls-kung-fu-kicking-your-mother's-small-intestines-out-and-strangling-some-super-monster-in-the-process-of-destroying-Tokyo-with-them. Just about, oh, 90% of it is.

That said, Castle Of Cagliostro rules.

Posted by: moosegod Dec 3 2003, 12:15 AM

Ok, I retract my statement.

I hate anime because it comes from the most racist and sexist First World country, the style is nothing but lazy, and nothing I've seen from it makes any sense.

Well, except for Spirits Within. That was ok.

Posted by: Shockwave_IIc Dec 3 2003, 12:21 AM

QUOTE (moosegod @ Dec 3 2003, 12:15 AM)

Well, except for Spirits Within. That was ok.

And most people i know don't consider that anime. Thats a CG film based on a computer game which is based on anime. So no, looks like you don't like anime. But thats fine.

Posted by: moosegod Dec 3 2003, 12:36 AM

Well, it's the closest I had.

Anyways, to the subject at hand-

Does anyone have any idea about the effectiveness of guns like the UMP that allow for the swapping of calibers? How easy is it? How much does accuracy and reliability suffer?

Or, does someone have a site with an in-depth discussion?

Posted by: Kagetenshi Dec 3 2003, 12:38 AM

QUOTE (moosegod)

the style is nothing but lazy

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight... I'll assume you've never seen Akira.

~J

Posted by: Kurukami Dec 3 2003, 01:43 AM

Perhaps he's basing his opinion off of fluff like Dragonball Z and Pokemon. Most of that is pretty lazy as animation effort goes.

Posted by: DR.PaiN Dec 3 2003, 02:38 AM

Compelely off topic, but someone is using Raygun's chart for backing on Fark.com, http://forums.fark.com/cgi/fark/comments.pl?IDLink=740850.

Posted by: Dim Sum Dec 3 2003, 03:58 AM

QUOTE (moosegod)

I hate anime because it comes from the most racist and sexist First World country

Hehehe, sorry, that would be Third World country you're referring to.

Posted by: Traks Dec 3 2003, 09:35 AM

QUOTE (Raygun)

That said, Castle Of Cagliostro rules.

Why? Bubblegum Crisis wasn't so bad after all.
Besides, red bikes rule

But I must admit that I am more into humorous part of anime.
Still Akira was ok, and Armitage III also.

Posted by: kenji Dec 3 2003, 01:07 PM

obligatory knee-jerk: what the fuck is up with this thread?

it started as a "what gun is this?" and ended as "anime is teh sux0r."
anime is just yet another storytelling form. not unlike that Shadowrun thing that some people allegedly play. if you don't like the conventions of the form, find a different medium.

and as for realism in *any* media: do you watch american cinema for the Science lessons? shit no, you don't. hell, how many storytellers (in any form) do you know that sit down and research even half of what they could potentially get wrong?

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Dec 3 2003, 01:23 PM

I would like to think that this thread ended as "anime guns are moronic". Which they are. And then we had a good collective laught at anime guns. Sure it got mentioned that most anime follows the tried-and-true "cute-innocent-looking-girls-kung-fu-kicking-your-mother's-small-intestines-out-and-strangling-some-super-monster-in-the-process-of-destroying-Tokyo-with-them" storyline, but that was just a side-effect of discussing anime guns.

And most of us have been joking about it, not seriously suggesting that it is somehow "less worthy" than any other art media. I do watch american cinema with at least the same amount of criticism as I watch anime -- in fact, most of the time I watch american cinema way more critically. And I'm not certain about this, but I think Tom Clancy researches most of his gun stuff... Either that, or he knows all of it already. Well, except for the unfortunate MP-10 issue.

Posted by: Raygun Dec 4 2003, 01:03 AM

QUOTE (Moosegod)

Does anyone have any idea about the effectiveness of guns like the UMP that allow for the swapping of calibers? How easy is it? How much does accuracy and reliability suffer?

Usually guns that are designed to fire either the 9mm Parabellum or the .40 S&W are basically the same gun with a few different parts dedicated for each caliber. In the case of ther UMP, that would be the barrel, bolt assembly, recoil/return spring, magazine, and possibly the rear sight. Five parts, three of which are interchangeable during a field strip. It would likely take an armorer's tools and skill to change the barrel, but changing calibers is definitely possible and more than that, it's built into the weapon design. Accuracy and reliability shouldn't suffer at all as long as it's done right.

QUOTE (DR.PaiN)

Compelely off topic, but someone is using Raygun's chart for backing on Fark.com, check it out, like 40 or so comments down.

And the guy was still wrong. Amazing. If he'd read the rest of my site, he'd know where to find speed of sound.

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)

And I'm not certain about this, but I think Tom Clancy researches most of his gun stuff... Either that, or he knows all of it already. Well, except for the unfortunate MP-10 issue.

He's only slightly better than most writers when it comes to gun facts. He did a fair amount of talking out of his ass in Rainbow Six. The R6 games rule, though.

Posted by: moosegod Dec 4 2003, 01:08 AM

See, the reason I was thinking about accuracy is you are physically changing the location of the barrel. It would seem that you'd need to re-zero the weapon.

But that's a common armorer's task.

Posted by: Raygun Dec 4 2003, 11:49 PM

And significantly changing the ballistics of the round you're firing. That's why I mentioned the use of a new rear sight. In any case, you'd definitely need to re-zero the weapon after changing a barrel. And you're right, that is a common armorer's task.

Posted by: moosegod Dec 5 2003, 01:49 AM

Raygun- You probably already know about this site, but I found it useful-

www.bulletproofme.com