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Posted by: Daddy's Little Ninja Dec 14 2007, 03:57 PM

SF has her thread on vacations and that made me think about other things people do now.

My husband and one of my brothers are historical re-enactors. Guys who dress up in old uniforms and go off for a weekend. Both of these guys re-enact the first World War and my husband also does the American Revolution.

I'm told other people re-enact the American and british civil Wars, WW2, Spanish-American war, French and Indian War, wars between Americans and Native Americans, dress like Romans and even Vietnam.

I know you can't do these in the sprawls but on the east coast they are big and there is lots of room. They do WW1 on some farm land in western Pennsylvania where they can run around with rifles and machine guns , motars, tear gas and flare guns. People fly bi-planes over them. I'm told in WW2 people do mock up tanks!

So do you think these hobbies would be around in the 2070's? Would other wars get added?

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Dec 14 2007, 04:29 PM

No.
Well, I mean yes, but no. Running around in fields firing blanks impotently and flinging bean bag "grenades" at each other while bi-planes fly overhead providing atmosphere in an effort to be realistic? No.
If the goal is to create a maximally realistic recreation, it'll be a VR video game. As war games advance into full-VR they would consume the recreationist niche. They would do everything the recreations would do, only better. The recreationists can currently claim that their hobby feels more real, since they're out there doing stuff rather than sitting in a chair, but with a full VR environment, any tiny loss of fidelity or feelings of "less real" from the VR would be totally overwhelmed by the mountains of more realistic touches which could be added, like....bullets.

edit: Full-VR would probably kill all types of LARPing, not just recreations. You'd still see the occasional Dark Lord of Denny's, but it wouldn't be because he's LARPing, it's because he can't distinguish reality. Wait....nevermind. (just teasin')

Posted by: Ravor Dec 14 2007, 04:38 PM

I agree with Moon-Hawk, with the following exception, I could easily see a "Desert War: Civil War Era" or the like special being put on the trid by a corp every now and again.

Posted by: Fix-it Dec 14 2007, 04:52 PM

The internet is the dark underside of human society.

Not throw in full VR, and you will have more weirdness than your mind can handle.

/historical re-enactors aren't considered weird. they are important history teachers.

Posted by: imperialus Dec 14 2007, 04:52 PM

I expect that getting together in a field and re-creating Gettysburg is probably out of vogue. Virtual re-enactment on the other hand though the matrix is probably hugely popular.

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Dec 14 2007, 05:28 PM

...ok, lets go to some other popular hobbies:

RC Model aircraft. Admittedly systems in 2070 would be highly sophisticated. Already in RL they have miniature turbofans and multi channel control systems that can actuate everything from landing gear, and flaps to even turn on & off the landing lights. I can just imagine how much more precise these controls will be in 2070 (and how much smaller & lighter). With the advanced composites as used for drones, scale aircraft could be made to look even more lifelike. Add in AR/VR and you could actually experience flying the aircraft from it's POV. Yeah you could say this would be taken over by flight simulator VR chips, but there still is something about building a scale replica of say an ME109 or a Sukhoi SU-30 and actually flying it.

The same would hold true for model boats/ships & ground vehicles as well.

Posted by: Stahlseele Dec 14 2007, 05:32 PM

ye gods i just realized the possible horrors of things like 4-chan on full VR with Hot-Sim . .

Posted by: CircuitBoyBlue Dec 14 2007, 05:37 PM

You're not supposed to talk about it, Stahlseele.

But also, it's weird that we're debating whether or not there'd be historical re-enactments in a setting where the South up and seceded.

Posted by: DTFarstar Dec 14 2007, 06:08 PM

I live in the South, but most of my gaming group hates living here and we just aren't generally very fond of the average citizen in the cities around us. (Of course we are bitter people who just generally hate everything and enjoy partaking in the many fine vintages of others' shame and humiliation that life has to offer) As such, explaining that the South actually ended up successfully seceding was.... difficult... with lots of laughter and several "Bullshits" or "What the hell?!"s. I think an amusing consequence in Shadowrun is that the people with the weird weapon fetishes(me for instance, I just love weapons for some reason, I own some 10 or 15 swords, a throwing axe, am working on getting some throwing knives, and I am working on getting a really cool shotgun(double barreled 12 gauge-I believe- with a rifled barrel down the center where you can load a rifle shell. You push a switch over and the hammers fire the rifle shell instead of the shotgun shells. My dad got it from someone earlier this year, it was made in the early 1800's and looks like it actually might be somewhat unique- not in style but in who made it and when.) are now just normal prepared citizen's and/or shadowrunners.

Chris

Posted by: Fortune Dec 14 2007, 07:51 PM

Posted by: nezumi Dec 14 2007, 08:29 PM

I'm sure model RC aircraft are all over the place considering how cheap drones are relatively speaking.

Most 'weird' hobbies are either going to get stronger in the sixth world because it's easier to get in touch with other deviants, and with such deviancy as humans breeding with orks and so on it's not as much of a big deal if say you like to dress all in foam and throw yourself at walls.

The rest are going to go primarily VR, just because it offers anonymity and a more impressive recreation. If you're into throwing mice in the air, you can enjoy it just about as much virtually as in real life with half the cost.

The only 'weird' hobbies I can see going away are those which are now mainstream - for instance, writing fantasy books about orks and elves coming back into the world.

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Dec 14 2007, 10:07 PM

Drone aircraft are going to be fun.

Especially when you use a more or less model of a real aircraft, and then put a real weapon on it.

Posted by: Fortune Dec 14 2007, 10:11 PM

With the way the Sixth World airspace is regulated, I would assume that there would be restrictions on just where and when RC aircraft enthusiasts could engage in their hobby.

Posted by: Synner667 Dec 14 2007, 10:18 PM

Posted by: Bastard Dec 15 2007, 12:01 AM

Do kids play flag Urban Brawl?

Posted by: Sir_Psycho Dec 15 2007, 12:24 AM

Imagine you want to HALO drop into a corp facility without being picked up on radar and nailed with a SAM (or whatever) and you hire a club of RC aviation enthusiasts to provide a distraction.

A hundred scale bi-planes, b-52's, helicopters and messerschmidts converge on the facility, and just over the hill there's a bunch of geeky men with sweat on their brows, thumbs working furiosly to evade the missiles and drones of the facility and swoop and dive at the sec guards.

Posted by: Snow_Fox Dec 15 2007, 03:50 AM

There are clubs that let you do air to air combat in rigged planes. bet that would be facing challenges from simsernse but the re-enactors-you think CAS would give that up?

DLN's husband only does british. but from his photos they don't just use rifles but have smg's and motars. I think the WW2 guys do too so that could really add to those hobbies. Think about it, need a place to hide you mg's?

Posted by: Mr. Man Dec 15 2007, 07:38 AM

My weird hobby is Shadowrun.

It would definitely not survive.

(Although I seem to remember the VWE BattleTech pods almost being mentioned by name in 2nd edition somewhere.)

Posted by: Fortune Dec 15 2007, 08:05 AM

Posted by: Sir_Psycho Dec 15 2007, 08:30 AM

Re-named "the game of life".

Posted by: CircuitBoyBlue Dec 15 2007, 04:11 PM

The subscription fee is 29.95/month.

Posted by: Mercer Dec 15 2007, 05:58 PM

I once ran a game that centered on some high school kids who had been infected with HMHVV. They based their entire club on the V:TM line of books, because they thought that vampires from previous ages had passed their information down that way. (The vamps were based a lot on a Vampire Live Action group I had played with for years. So they were basically nerds, with superpowers.)

My friends who did those re-enactments called the Living History. In SR, I could see 4th world enthusiasts who get together in state parks and recreate ancient life with orks, trolls, elves and dwarves (and maybe sasquatches, if they can get any to show up). Or, exisiting organizations like the SCA might get a little revisio-historical (since forbiding metahumans would be a Civil Rights violation), and have orks and elves and such at their events. (Can you imagine how awesome it would be if you could get a dragon to show up to one of those things?)

Posted by: bibliophile20 Dec 15 2007, 06:20 PM

Posted by: Stahlseele Dec 15 2007, 10:09 PM

and if he weren't dead, perhaps even the Big D would show up . . just because and also because it would irk the others of his kind *g*
And wasn't there a Dragon on Hawaii or something like that who actually had a normal job and let the neighbourhood-kids ride on his back for free in the air?

Posted by: Snow_Fox Dec 16 2007, 06:37 PM

Since re-enactors are private groups they could ban minorities. But they have to have an interest in joining. Not many African-American for example would want to serious lay out the cash to dress as Confederate soldiers.

But the idea of LotR's re-enacting springing up could be fascinating. Groups probing into past, maybe looking for proof of earlier ages when elves and orks walked the earth. Anyone up for a run on the Atlantean Society? Then again I'm getting ideas-stop such a group of weekend hobbists before they discover the Horrors. These nerds are harmless but they could stumble on to something the powers that be want kept quiet. (not everyone will know the big D closed that door.)

Posted by: Fortune Dec 16 2007, 10:08 PM

Posted by: Cadmus Dec 17 2007, 04:53 AM

I have to agree with Fortune their, granted i'm a dirty carpet bagger so what do I know.

Posted by: Whipstitch Dec 17 2007, 05:16 AM

Black troops, regardless of which side they fought on, made a great contribution in combating racism simply by proving their competence and bravery, so what few black reenactors there are seem quite happy to play either side, and often pick according to family history.

Two pertinent quotes:

Frederick Douglas: ""Men of Color, to Arms! For once let the black man get upon his person the brass letters 'U.S.' Let him get an eagle on his button, a musket on his shoulder, bullets in his pocket. Make him a soldier of the nation. Let him serve. Let him sacrifice. Let him shed his blood with his white brother. Do all that, and then there is no power on Earth which can deny that he has earned the right to citizenship in the United States of America."

Colonel Howell Cobb: "You cannot make soldiers of slaves, or slaves of soldiers. The day you make a soldier of them is the beginning of the end of the Revolution. And if slaves seem good soldiers, then our whole theory of slavery is wrong."

Posted by: CircuitBoyBlue Dec 17 2007, 05:51 AM

I don't even understand why Americans re-enact the Civil War now. I mean, everyone involved messed up bad. The South was holding slaves, and the North was mainly interested in keeping the South in the Union at gunpoint, and Britain and France were being sympathetic to the slave-holding South just so their cotton could be cheaper. Everyone involved ended up being an evil prick. The outcome of the conflict may have been favorable (i.e., abolition), but the conflict itself was stupid, and fought for entirely the wrong reasons. And I'm not one for whitewashing history, but I can't understand wanting to re-enact one's mistakes.

Posted by: Mercer Dec 17 2007, 06:03 AM

I've never been to a Civil War reenactment, but I have friends who did it for a number of years and I've seen a lot of pictures and you know what? Not a lot of black faces in those crowds. (Which is entirely understandable. Historical perspectives aside, its still hanging out in a field with a bunch of semi-armed, totally drunk rednecks dressed as Confederate soldiers. That would be a tough sell for a lot of people, whether they were black or not.)

My curiousity piqued though, I poked around on the internet to see if there were any estimates of the number of civil war reenactors there are, and how many black civil war reenactors there are. According to http://books.google.com/books?id=wzBiXWCbmzYC&pg=PA263&lpg=PA263&dq=black+civil+war+reenactor+percentage&source=web&ots=uGaJSoeUOr&sig=gx5QUG3iDBY2-cia_f4NsaiXm4M, "During the 1997 event, the two hundred black Civil War reenactors... represented about 85% of all black reenactors in the United States." Given that its an estimate, that puts the number of black Civil War reenactors at a best guess of around 235. According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War_reenactment (I know, I know, but take my word I haven't inflated these numbers), "To date the largest Civil War reenactment was the 135th Gettysburg (1998), which had over 41,000 reenactors and over 45,000 spectators attending."

My guess going into this was the number of black Civil War reenactors would top out at around 3%, but if these numbers I dug up after about a half an hour of searching are remotely accurate (hey, a big "if", I know), its closer to .6%. If a little over half a percent of the people reenacting the Civil War are black, I don't think Snow Fox's comment of "not many African-Americans" is too far off the mark.

The larger question, in the Shadowrun context anyway, is what percentage of reenactors would be orks, trolls, elves, dwarves, sasquatches or dragons. I think there is a certain element to the Awakening that will make history seem a little staid.

Posted by: hyzmarca Dec 17 2007, 06:34 AM

Some Background

http://www.usgennet.org/usa/mo/county/stlouis/blackcs.htm

http://www.forrestsescort.org/blacks.htm

http://www.stonewallbrigade.com/articles_black_confeds.html

http://www.forrestsescort.org/blacks.htm

http://www.confederateamericanpride.com/blackconfederates.html


An article about a proud black Confederate
http://www.sptimes.com/2007/10/07/State/In_defense_of_his_Con.shtml


The last is written by a black Confederate reenactor.
http://www.confederateamericanpride.com/thoughts.html


So, yes, while the propaganda that currently saturates popular culture and academia tends to demonize the South, there do exist Confederates of all races who know the truth about the War of Northern Aggression and are proud of their ancestry.



Of course, the most fun about historical reenactment societies are rivalries and feuds that lead to full-scale invasions of each-others reenactments. Imagine a reenactment of the Battle of Agincourt when, suddenly, B-29s and Mitsubishi Ki-21 appear from over the horizon, dropping Napalm on French knights and British archers alike.

Posted by: Mercer Dec 17 2007, 06:43 AM

One of Mr. Shows best sketches spoofed the Ken Burns Civil War documentary by giving a similar treatment to two reenactor brothers. The highlight of the sketch comes after they realize the reenactment is being held in the same park as the Ren Fair, and the pictures of the battle (done in the same slow pan across antique photographs while mournful music plays) take place mostly in the parking lot, with a short, fat Lincoln in raybans is chasing people with a musket. If there were more reenactments like that, I'd go.

Posted by: wind_in_the_stones Dec 17 2007, 06:51 AM

Posted by: CircuitBoyBlue Dec 17 2007, 07:17 AM

Posted by: Critias Dec 17 2007, 08:27 AM

If you think of nothing but "LOL SLAVEHOLDERS ABOUND" when you think of "the South," I don't blame you. But it's not like every Confederate private's field kit was a musket, his share of a field tent, a canteen, and his very own whipping negro.

The number of people who owned slaves in the South wasn't very high. The number of people that went to war from the South (or the North, for that matter) genuinely believing the reason for the war was slavery also wasn't very high. We've been told that, but it's simply not so. Slavery was only one of the many issues on the table, concerning state's rights, that led to the conflict.

Not every Confederate soldier suited up and went to battle over slaves, any more than every individual soldier current in the Gulf is there to get cheap oil or improve his Halliburton stock.

Posted by: CircuitBoyBlue Dec 17 2007, 09:08 AM

Oh, I'd agree. Actually, I'd go a step further and say that slaver was a marginal issue that was just cynically exploited by the North to legitimize its stance that the South should be forcibly kept in the Union. But the fact that the North was full of fault doesn't mean the South should just get a free pass on the fact that they tried to be a slave holding country. Whether every private in the field had a slave, or just one dude had a slave, it's still a system where slavery is allowed to exist, and that's wrong.

Posted by: Fortune Dec 17 2007, 09:25 AM

Posted by: Mercer Dec 17 2007, 09:37 AM

The Civil War was 140+ years ago, WWII was 60+ years ago. Since you don't hear much about Vietnam reenactors, I'm going to assume the line for reenacting things to be around 50 years. Given that, it seems like in SR, people may very well be reenacting either of the Gulf Wars (unless you just want to go ahead and assume Desert Wars are really big reenactments with bigger budgets and live ammo).

In the NAN, particularly the Sioux, I can see reenactments. Maybe the Great Ghost Dance, maybe the (not so great) Ghost Dance, Little Big Horn, maybe a few of the more obscure battles that US History glossed over. (What's the point of retaking your ancestral home if you can't lump a little revisionist history in with it all?) Perhaps the Cherokee go on Trail of Tear pilgrimages for a week or two to remind themselves of the sacrifices their ancestors made.

Civil War reenactments might have an unconsidered political element now that the South actually did secede. NAGNA seemed to portray the CAS as very much in the "good-ole-boy" tradition, so some might see the secession as the righting of a long overdue wrong, while others might be embarrassed by the connotation. (New Slogan for the CAS: We're Not That Confederacy!" Given how much hoopla from both sides goes on in Georgia every time the state flag changes, its not entirely without precedent.)

In Aztlan, perhaps some of the Mexican-American War battles might be big, though the big corp and gov sponsored events are probably going to be older. (I'm guessing reenacting battles where the Aztecs are getting wiped out by the Spanish is frowned upon.) I can't remember if the Aztlan book made mention of this, but I do remember their big about the old-style Aztec games, so its a logical step. Or, Aztlan might be too busy fighting actual wars to worry about the playacting (unless the playacting is a viable recruitment tool). Aztlan is probably staffing the reenactments with convicts and making them fight for real. (In fact, I'm pretty sure that was mentioned in the Aztlan book.)

Then, with all the weirdness the Awakening brings, why bother restricting yourself to the stuff that actually happened? Given that the stuff of fairy tales is as real as real-world history, I can see the line between historical reenactments and live action rpg's blurring a bit. Alternate Historical Reenactments. Discover the 4th (or the 2nd, or the 0th) World.

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Dec 17 2007, 05:10 PM

Posted by: Daddy's Little Ninja Dec 17 2007, 05:11 PM

Yes my husband is a 'red coat' and our house has, locked away from the baby, a Brown Bess musket, Lee-Enfield rifle and a Webley revolver.

I think Snow Fox was not disputing that blacks fought for the south. I think she was saying how many modern black men would want to join the ranks of an army popularly perceived as being the slavers?

Pop culture can set a lot of the perceived image that might get someone involved. Through popular literature and the movie "Glory," it is thought that blacks first fought in the US army in the Civil war in blue. you need a passion to do this sort of thing. a friend of ours who was involved in the movie "Glory" said they did not have enough black re-enactors, so they got college students and when that was not enough, they let non-violent criminals work on the film as 'work release programs.

I know that as a Japanese-Americans, for my brothers, "Go For Broke" about Japanese-americans fighting in WW2 it was gospel and we didn't know that there were Japanese-americans in all sorts of places in the US military.

I've heard him speak to crowds when dressed up in his full regalia and it is amazing the misconceptions people have. A woman claiming to be a school teacher once told him that the American Revolution was over July 4, 1776.

But to get back on topic, he said some people at WW1 have SMG's. German ones and BAR's and the grenades do explode-spraying baking powder. What made me think of this is that at a recent event he said someone had a mock up of Snow Fox' favorite bitch about weapon-the Chauchat. I was made by building onto a soviet assault rifle.It would seem a great way to hide/experiment with modern gear.

Posted by: Whipstitch Dec 17 2007, 06:30 PM

Yeah, as Moon-hawk said, never forget the simple fact that it's a lot easier to learn about and reenact the Civil War than it is more modern wars. It took place on American soil so you can easily visit the battlefields and you don't need any understanding of foreign languages to learn from newspaper accounts and correspondence from the era. By the same token it is a helluva lot easier to get some reasonably snazzy looking uniforms, march out to a field, pitch some canvas tents and drink some coffee before the morning of the scripted "battle" without feeling like an idiot than it is to find a patch of "jungle" to slog through so you can get to the scripted ambush and/or wait for imaginary helicopters.

And of course, it's heavily romanticized and enough time has passed for people to feel comfortable with all this to begin with.

Posted by: DireRadiant Dec 17 2007, 06:42 PM

Bah... Re enact! NO!

They will LIVE it! 24 hours a day, 7 days a week with their Reality Filter Software and Hot Sim mods!

Whatever reality you want, the battle before the walls of Troy, Hannibal, Alexander, Ramses, Darius, etc etc all the way to the latest Desert Wars release you can live it now, all the time.

In groups, alone, in groups where one persons world view is Ancient Greece, another is EVO Mars Doom mod scenario, they'll all live it all the time.

Posted by: Whipstitch Dec 17 2007, 08:13 PM

My poor character is living the Evo Mars Doom mod scenario right now

Posted by: CircuitBoyBlue Dec 17 2007, 08:30 PM

Mine's living the 2007-era lonely government bureaucrat mod. Thank god THAT's almost over...

Posted by: kzt Dec 17 2007, 08:34 PM

Posted by: Whipstitch Dec 17 2007, 08:44 PM

Yeah, however long that is.

Posted by: DireRadiant Dec 17 2007, 08:58 PM

You get new lives till you run out of clones.

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Dec 17 2007, 09:55 PM

...Violet....uhhh Violet...? Drek she's hooked on that ftragging Miracle Shooter again. Where's the troll? He can just bash the door in....

(#73)

Posted by: Sir_Psycho Dec 17 2007, 10:08 PM

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Dec 17 2007, 10:57 PM

<=...ack! I'm one of them now...

I have met the enemy and it is me...

Posted by: Stahlseele Dec 17 2007, 11:15 PM

well, obviously . . you can't say enemy without saying me . . same as you can't say slaughter without laughter *g*

Posted by: Daddy's Little Ninja Dec 19 2007, 02:14 PM

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Dec 19 2007, 05:45 PM

Posted by: Snow_Fox Jan 1 2008, 04:49 PM

Just thinking of this subject-hobbies, not DLN's insane husband, who does manage to look completely at ease in a modern super market while wearing a 1770's uniform,

Off roading-sure

surfing- yup, the Hawaii SB has a pic of an ork in jamms with a board

painting-yup

camping-sure, we know there are nasty things out there but there are nasty things today.

clubing- oh yeah

X-treme sports- most likely

sports- of course

what about ham radio? would that be lost in the wave of matrix communication or would it be kept as a 'ancient' art the way DLN's husband can start a fire with flint and steel.

Home brew beer?

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 1 2008, 06:13 PM

I imagine ham radio operation will be an offense punishable by death in SR, even more so if you play SR4. That's spectrum some money-making corporation could be using, after all.

~J

Posted by: hyzmarca Jan 1 2008, 10:49 PM

In 2070, WWII is sufficiently distant for them to have Concentration Camp reenactments without invoking the Spectre of Bad Taste.


Why, they could even have a Saeder Krupp Concentration-Land, with actors dressed up as fun cartoon versions Rudolf Höß and Josef Mengele and hundreds of happy Jews, Poles, Homosexuals, and Anarchists led by Anne Frank performing Disney-esq musical dance numbers about how fun it is to be at Camp.

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jan 2 2008, 01:14 AM

...and for the kids there's Escape from Stalag 13 complete with Col. Wilhelm Klink, Sgt Hans Georg Schultz, and Gen. Albert Burkhalter.

Posted by: Snow_Fox Jan 2 2008, 01:27 AM

With gormet meals serves at Cafe Renee where his wife(Mrs. Nighthawk) will sing at you. But when the waitress tells you the specials "Listen carefully, I will say this only once."

Posted by: nezumi Jan 2 2008, 04:37 PM

Home-brewing beer is a good question. You can ferment mushrooms and tofu, but I can't imagine anyone intentionally ingesting it. So automatically, home brew is for upper middle class or above. The process is not especially complex, but if the price of grain rises astronomically (which seems to be the case in SR) it simply won't be cost effective compared to the synthetic stuff.

(For the record, I paid $150 startup costs for my gear, which would be the same or cheaper. I spent about $25 for a batch. Out of that, about half of that is malt, a third is grain, the remainder is for yeast, hops, cleaning supplies and other odds and ends. That $25 makes 6 gallons, more or less, depending on how worried you are about QC. That's round about 64 bottles of beer, more or less. Less for heavier beers or higher quality beers where you forego the gunk at the bottom, more for lighter or lower quality beers. Current market price for a 6 pack is about $8 for the cheap stuff I believe? That means my beers are about $.40, whereas normal beers are about $1.30. If we assume the cost of cheap beer stays about the same, but the price of grain goes up by a factor of 10, I'd be paying about $3 a beer for home-brew, with about $200 upfront.)

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jan 2 2008, 06:18 PM

Posted by: nezumi Jan 2 2008, 07:09 PM

I think my point is that if I am a low-level wageslave who drinks beer to get a little drunk and has learned to drink the cheap stuff because the expensive stuff is too expensive, I will learn to drink synthetic beer. If I'm a low-level wageslave who really likes beer well enough to buy the expensive stuff, and can already afford to buy the expensive stuff (and more importantly, can afford to plop down a fat $400 all at once instead of over the course of months), then yes, home brew makes a lot of sense.

But to use me as an example, I can afford quality beers, but I can't afford quality wines. I don't really do wine-making and don't especially care to get into it because I've already cultured a taste for quality beer. If, when I was first getting into beer, quality beer was above my price range, I would have developed a taste for quality cheese or something instead, never would have gotten too interested in beer except to get drunk, probably would have stuck to vodka, and never would have gotten into home-brew at all as a consequence.

(As an aside, on this line of thought, there are a lot of hobbies that produce good food on the cheap, if you have either space, or some minor expenses or both, even without the availability of much more than what we see in Shadowrun. My wife and I are currently looking into raising rabbits for food and fur, which is almost free since you can get waste vegetable matter from your local grocery store. They're going to throw it out anyway, after all. If we assume that we can find a cheap feed for rabbits, which shouldn't be all that hard, it would make sense that anyone with the space for it get into it. For braver individuals, raising beetles can fill a similar niche. Both provide great protein relatively cheap. The problem (well not so much with the beetles, but definitely with beer) is security. If you live in the barrens and people catch word you've got forty gallons of fresh, real beer, your apartment is going to get torn apart.

Cheese making I imagine will be gone and making pricey wine will be gone (cheese requires milk, which is practically unheard of in SR, GOOD wine does best with wooden barrels and the like, also difficult to get, plus grapes, which is pricey compared pound to pound with grain).

As an aside, cider is VERY economical. While it costs me about $25 for 6 gallons of beer, cider is closer to about $8 for the same quantity, higher alcohol content and higher quality. I can't imagine some sort of juice is available. It just needs sugars the yeast can break down. Related, if you have alcohol (including the synthetic stuff), distillation is relatively easy, although a little more risky. I could definitely see there being plenty of stills in the barrens where they take bad stuff and make it into worse stuff. The problem with stills is a lot of times people will make them out of stuff like car radiators. Car radiators are not made to hold stuff for human consumption and are coated with heavy metals. I had a friend who told me how after making a few batches with his still, he realized the inside of his scavenged metal coil had changed color and he was stripping away the metals into the drink. He was pretty stupid beforehand though, so I can't say if it made any change. I can DEFINITELY see this coming up in SR.

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jan 2 2008, 07:20 PM

Posted by: CircuitBoyBlue Jan 2 2008, 09:16 PM

When I was in college, my housemates and I were briefly looking into setting up a still in our basement (which, hey, happened to be my room). Their thinking was that I would be there most of the time to keep an eye on it when they weren't around. But I had to be the square that said "no still," because I realized that all this time I spent in my room while everyone was at work was time I needed to spend sleeping so I could go to class in the evening. And none of us had any experience making a still. So basically, their plan was for me to get sprayed with boiling alcohol in my sleep when the still none of us really knew how to make exploded.

Of course now that I'm a bureaucrat that hates his life, setting up a still in my room might not be such a bad idea. I should maybe look into this again.

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jan 2 2008, 09:43 PM

...had a good friend killed by a still explosion, and he did know how to make them with the right materials. A dangerous hobby even for the experienced.

Posted by: nezumi Jan 2 2008, 10:06 PM

At $3 a beer I wouldn't do it. I have better things to spend my money on.

And for the record, I DO drink Natty Bo, but that's mostly because I live in Baltimore and feel I should show a little pride in my city. Which reminds me, I should probably pick some up! I need a palate cleanser after my nut brown ale.

Posted by: Snow_Fox Jan 3 2008, 02:50 AM

Although classic SR 1st Ed talked about how rare 'real' food is that's sort of dropped away. I had a thread a while back, like a year or more, where it occurred to me that there shouldn't be a food shortage. The idea originally was basic cyberpunk but in the SR world, the VITAS plague wiped out a huge swath of population but leaving crop ground in place and no major toxic screw ups in North America there should be plenty of real food.

As for wine, I think we'd have that-you can used metal casks with strips of oak inside them. but also in France it is damn close to religion, the same for country cheeses. and if they do it, then so will the corps-for profit. though the australian wine biz' is probably dead.

Posted by: CircuitBoyBlue Jan 3 2008, 05:11 AM

I don't think there's any doubt that wine would still be around. It's just that all the small wineries would be gone.

About the food shortage, I don't know if the NAN would still be cultivating more land than they needed to survive, so maybe the huge urban populations like Seattle would still get screwed. Although, you're right--it does still seem like the half of the country that didn't get taken by the NAN would still be full of farms. I guess you still need to look at it in terms of whether or not that can supply the whole world, but there's probably also other areas of the world that can produce and export food, and you'd think that if bioscience can give me more brain and heart tissue to make me some sort of badass genius, they'd be able to make cows that produce twice the meat and rice that feeds everyone.

I think you've already put more thought into it than the original writer, which is why it's been downplayed. It's a very cyberpunk idea, but too hard to consistently back up. I still like telling all my players about how they're not eating real food unless they fork over the big bucks for a High lifestyle, but that's not to say it makes a lot of sense.

Posted by: Fortune Jan 3 2008, 05:49 AM

Posted by: Cthulhudreams Jan 3 2008, 06:15 AM

I've always thought that the big problem with big agriculture in SR was that there are seriously fire breathing cows/rats/kangaroos/god knows what else out there and that would make your little agricultural operation a bit more risky.

Certainly animal husbandry would just be impossible. 'Oh look a new calf' moments later 'oh look it breaths fire how .. larry get the gun.'

Posted by: Fortune Jan 3 2008, 06:21 AM

I figure there are very few viable 'little agricultural operations' remaining. Most of that would be large conglomerates and the like that could afford proper security.

Posted by: Daddy's Little Ninja Jan 3 2008, 02:47 PM

The UCAS, CFS, CAS all have serious amounts of RL USA farm land. I would guess that the Sioux would also do well. Unless they really make a mess of land distribution like they have done in zimbabwe they would use that great natural resource.

The same would happen in Japan where today the farm lobby is very powerful. Probably the corps would exploit the profit margin. The question for food delicacy might be fish. There is a risk of some fish being hunted to the brink now. And fish like tuna do not make up a part of the diets of China and India so the population losses there would not affect the hunting.

Posted by: nezumi Jan 3 2008, 03:41 PM

I would assume there are a few basic factors feeding into it...

1) don't forget exports. While the UCAS has farmland and the NAN has TONS of farmland, places like China may have a far larger population than they have now (even after VITAS), less arable land, and more interest in meat, milk and so on, driving up demand.
2) Severe environmental damage, such as overuse of the aquifers which feed most of the midwest, will have made the environment a good deal less hospitable to farmland. The cost of importing water, fertilizer and so on will have driven costs of growing stuff through the roof. As soon as you can't just drill and bring up millions of gallons of water, most of the midwest becomes largely inappropriate for growing our major grain crops like corn (which take a ridiculous amount of water). While there's land available, there's no water and no fertilizer.
3) Big mean animals and indians like to eatsy farmers. Yum! Well, the indians don't eat them, but I wouldn't be surprised if conflicts between natives still cause problems.
4) The rise of soy, mushroom and krill based food (I know all three of those require lots of water, shush!) has greatly depressed the cost of food, resulting in farmers either having to seriously lower their prices or not being able to cater at all to the price conscious. As the cost of living goes down, strictly speaking (you can still afford food and a house, just like your parents could, it's just a far, far crappier food and house), that may depress wages, meaning there are fewer people in the income bracket able to afford that 'real food'. This doesn't even touch on the mass of SINless.
5) (Seattle specific), Seattle is effectively an island. It does not have enough land to support the people living on it. All food must either be imported from its neighbors, with which it has an uneasy relationship, or shipped in from much farther away, raising the local food prices.

The end result is while there is grain, it's very expensive because it takes so much to grow it and there's overseas demand, and such cheaper alternatives for the average Joe, grain really isn't the staple diet any more.

I imagine there are some sprawling family farmers, making up for lack of water and therefore poor crops with sheer size. There are also going to be large, very expensive 'natural' farms where everything is imported and heavily guarded. In general I imagine the dust bowl of the depression with more guns, though.

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jan 3 2008, 03:56 PM

Posted by: nezumi Jan 3 2008, 04:09 PM

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jan 3 2008, 04:21 PM

...o'l Hellhound. Excellent vintage.

Posted by: Daddy's Little Ninja Jan 3 2008, 06:57 PM

Posted by: nezumi Jan 3 2008, 07:03 PM

Then how do you explain the recent rise in milk prices domestically?

Posted by: Critias Jan 3 2008, 07:32 PM

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jan 3 2008, 07:57 PM

Posted by: tisoz Jan 4 2008, 01:54 AM

Posted by: Cthulhudreams Jan 4 2008, 02:53 AM

Yeah but demand for milk has shot up everywhere.

Posted by: nezumi Jan 4 2008, 02:50 PM

Also something I thought of this morning - ethanol. Everyone should know by now if we turned all of COUSA into a giant cornfield, it still wouldn't provide enough ethanol to power all of our cars. However a huge number of cars in Shadowrun appear to be ethanol powered. Since we're not assuming they figured out that neat bacteria they're trying to make which would produce more sugar than sugar cane, it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume the drive for ethanol has driven up the cost of any product which requires corn land to grow.

Posted by: Snow_Fox Jan 7 2008, 12:34 PM

Posted by: Fortune Jan 7 2008, 12:53 PM

Funny, but Google doesn't seem to think 'Knick Pick' is all that common a saying, let alone an up-and-coming catch-phrase for anything other than a basketball draft choice.

I'll admit that I found a few instances where people have erroneously used 'knick pick' when they do in fact mean nit pick (since that is the proper catch-phrase), but rarely without correction.

Posted by: Snow_Fox Jan 7 2008, 01:07 PM

Since I love to cook I'll lean in on this. Remember that with the population being decimated world wide, there would be fewer drivers too. Also while Africa or Asia may , or may not, be over populated there might be little desire to sell grain there to feed the masses than to provide for the market here. Besides pinkskin farmers I imagine NAN farmers might get a kick out of selling their grain to the UCAS and CAS, sort of getting more pay back from the white man.

I don't think there's a market for a Shadows of Africa SB it might be interesting to see what happens in areas that currently have good soil but poor organization. Zimbabwe strings to mind. Once the bread basket of southern Africa mismanagment by Mugabe has destroyed the nation BUT the soil is still viable. I'm sure either an open corp take over or just a show of 'native ownership' in a well bribing shell company could exploit this terrain for more crops.

The old bestiaries do raise ideas. Are seafood too contaminated to eat or are the a bounty? A 100 kg lobster? Think of the King Crab legs! Talk about The Most Dangeorus Catch.

Posted by: CircuitBoyBlue Jan 7 2008, 02:36 PM

Posted by: Narse Jan 8 2008, 02:16 PM

Posted by: Snow_Fox Jan 8 2008, 03:24 PM

They're even worse news when you're in your bathtub!!!

The Most Dangerous catch is a reference, maybe a misnamed one, to a reality show on the discovery channel that puts camera crews on ships of the Alaska fishing fleet. For a reality show it's refreshing in that it is not blandly beautiful people trying to become famous/find love/get a job/out think etc competition.

This job is dangerous enough when you are just hauling up modern Alaska King Crab.

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jan 8 2008, 03:39 PM

...had a couple friends work the fishing fleets in summer (if that is what you call it up in the gulf of Alaska and Aleutians). While I haven't seen this programme, I have seen others about Alaskan fishing on the Discovery and Learning Channels and they are pretty dead on. It was great for my friends as this was the way they put themselves through school without the need of grants or loans (rare in this day & age). When you're up there you're on the boat almost all the time so there's little to spend your hard (and I do mean hard) earned wages on.

They also came back in pretty good physical shape as well. One thing though, I wouldn't think of taking them to a seafood house for dinner nor invite them over for fish after they got back.