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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Smartlink I/O

Posted by: Riley37 Dec 31 2007, 03:30 AM

The main function of a smartgun system seems straightforward. A sensor aligned with the barrel gets a target picture, a computing device does some calculations, and it sends appropriate output data to the smartgun image link so that the user's glasses/goggles display a point of aim on their field of vision, or it sends to the user's DNI so that the point of aim marker appears directly in their perceptual field of vision (along with # of ammo remaining etc.).
On another hand... where does the system get any info on where the user is looking, and thus when the direction they're looking matches with the direction of the barrel? If the system had input from a barrel-aligned sensor, and from a head-mounted sensor, it could compare the two and figure out where the barrel sensor's image corresponds with the field of vision; but it only has the former in RAW. I'm inclined to say that a smartlink can work only if it has access to the user's vision, eg their visual cortex, meaning DNI.

Is this an Awakened magical device, that only became possible in 2011?
Or am I missing something here?

RAW says that a smartgun user can eject a clip as a Free Action, without moving a finger, and can also fire without pulling the trigger. How exactly does the system get this input, if the user has an image link on goggles and no DNI? I'd say those functions are only available if the user has DNI such as trodenet or datajack.

Posted by: Karaden Dec 31 2007, 03:36 AM

I would guess that what you are talking about is why you need a special 'smartgun' attachment for your cybereyes or glasses or whatever, instead of simply having a display link.

*edit*
That would be for the first part of it at least, the images matching up properly. As for ejecting clips and firing, I can imagine it being some sort of blinking or something similar.

Posted by: mfb Dec 31 2007, 05:00 AM

QUOTE (Riley37)

On another hand... where does the system get any info on where the user is looking, and thus when the direction they're looking matches with the direction of the barrel?

it doesn't. most likely, it does the opposite--the display device (cybereyes, smartgoggles, whatever) accept not only trajectory information from the firearm, but gyroscopic positioning data that tells the display device where the gun is and what direction it's pointing in relation to the display device itself. the display device then collates all that data and uses it to create a visual aid that tells the user where his gun's bullets are going to go. just as in non-smartlinked shooting, the gun doesn't need to know where your eyes are, your eyes need to know where the gun is.

Posted by: JBlades Dec 31 2007, 06:41 AM

The obvious answer, to me, is GPS. It pings for your location, calculates distance and direction to target, and creates a GPS tied locative image, so that the image is available when within your field of view. Not a big deal for a system at SR's tech level. I imagine there might be a magnetic backup system for times when you're in less heavily gridded areas. It is, basically, a ballistics computer with wi-fi.

Posted by: mfb Dec 31 2007, 06:56 AM

smartlinks aren't susceptible to jamming. can't be GPS. i'm not sure how you envision using magnetics as a backup.

Posted by: kzt Dec 31 2007, 07:29 AM

GPS also doesn't work indoors, and doesn't have sufficient accuracy when it does work. Missing by a meter doesn't help much unless you are using grenades.

Posted by: MYST1C Dec 31 2007, 08:45 AM

QUOTE (Riley37)

On another hand... where does the system get any info on where the user is looking, and thus when the direction they're looking matches with the direction of the barrel? [...] I'm inclined to say that a smartlink can work only if it has access to the user's vision, eg their visual cortex, meaning DNI.
[...]
Or am I missing something here?

Well, in earlier editions of SR Smartlink was a .5 Essence neural implant that actually contained a specialized simrig in order to factor in the user's eye and weapon arm alignment thus calculating from three sets of targetting data (gun, eye, arm).
A non-implanted variant was available but was less effective (-1 TN bonus instead of -2).

As this external variant already existed I'd guess by 2070 the Smartlink technology has been advanced and calculating the targetting points with only two sets of reference data has been perfected:
The POV of the gun is compared to the POV of the Smartlink system (that most likely contains some kind of tiny camera itself).
This should work best with an implant or contact lenses as they move with the eye while glasses or helmet visors only move with the whole head...

Posted by: knasser Dec 31 2007, 11:07 AM

Any form of AR has to be able to know where you are looking in order to work. How else would it perform real time overlays of your surroundings? If the smartlink is connected to your imagelink glasses or contacts, then all it has to do is match up the picture transmitted from the glasses / contacts to the picture received from the gun's camera. Something smart enough to work out the trajectories of weapons, judge distances, etc. is smart enough to do this. Note that there are also passive ways of detecting where someone is looking by motion tracking of the eye. Measurement of the iris diameter and curve of the cornea would probably be reasonable as well - this is a world with casual retina matching.

So as you sweep your gun across the room, it recognizes when your eyes and your gun are pointing at the same thing and the suddenly the targetting information pops up.

I actually describe the feedback from the smartlink according to the grade of the cyberware. I had a short story that had a lot of fluff on this. I figured the good stuff was a lot more than just an ammo count and a red circle on where you're pointing: Imagine, as one example, that each potential target had a targeting circle auto-overlayed on them and that this circle had a small triangular arrow point. It could be positioned around the circle to show you which direction you needed to move the gun and size could indicate how far it needed to be moved, It would quickly become almost a reflex action to fire and aim, just moving until the arrow dissapeared or changed to its "close enough" colour.

No need for DNI, though you can come up with fluff ideas as to why it would be more useful, for example automatically highlighting priority targets or setting safe zones on friends and allies which the system then keeps track of as they move to prevent friendly fire accidents.

Smart links are amazing.

Posted by: JBlades Dec 31 2007, 02:01 PM

@mfb: A compass is magnetic, and I figured it would estimate off the last GPS signal since it does have range finder and positional tracking capability.

@kzt: I imagine there will be one or two advances in global satellite technology between 2007 and 2070, including accuracy. Also, sat links seem to work perfectly well with matrix technology in 2070, and 2070 wifi seems to work well indoors.

Locative digital figures can be produced with a laptop used as a server and today's GPS, I figure doing the same in 63 years isn't out of the question...

Posted by: Fortune Dec 31 2007, 02:08 PM

QUOTE (JBlades)

@kzt: I imagine there will be one or two advances in global satellite technology between 2007 and 2070, including accuracy. Also, sat links seem to work perfectly well with matrix technology in 2070, and 2070 wifi seems to work well indoors.

Locative digital figures can be produced with a laptop used as a server and today's GPS, I figure doing the same in 63 years isn't out of the question...

I believe it is stated somewhere in the books that GPS doesn't work accurately indoors. The Orientation System from Augmentation is needed for this kind of accuracy, which is not a standard feature of a Smartlink.

Posted by: Karaden Dec 31 2007, 02:31 PM

The book also points out that it can only track you down to within 1-3 meters. While not bad, it defiently isn't accurate enough to aid you in firing your weapon at all.

Posted by: Ed_209a Dec 31 2007, 03:46 PM

I think weapon orientation would be through ring-laser gyro. No moving parts, impossible to jam. That and a laser rangefinder gives all you need for a firing solution.

Alternately, a Smartgun could be as simple as a DNI link to weapon functions and a gizmo in your eye that paints a day-glo reticle over wherever it sees a laser spot with the right pulse code.

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Dec 31 2007, 08:04 PM

QUOTE (knassir)

I actually describe the feedback from the smartlink according to the grade of the cyberware. I had a short story that had a lot of fluff on this. I figured the good stuff was a lot more than just an ammo count and a red circle on where you're pointing: Imagine, as one example, that each potential target had a targeting circle auto-overlayed on them and that this circle had a small triangular arrow point. It could be positioned around the circle to show you which direction you needed to move the gun and size could indicate how far it needed to be moved, It would quickly become almost a reflex action to fire and aim, just moving until the arrow dissapeared or changed to its "close enough" colour.

...if memory serves me, the old arcade version of Battlezone had a similar feature which indicated which direction the enemy tank was when he wasn't in your sights. It didn't give distance though there was a small radar display at the top centre of the viewscreen. For it's day (1980) this was a fairly sophisticated game even though it was simple "green screen" (with overlay) vector line graphics. The US army actually used a version of the game to train soldiers for the Bradley AFV.

Posted by: mfb Dec 31 2007, 08:12 PM

QUOTE (JBlades)

@mfb: A compass is magnetic, and I figured it would estimate off the last GPS signal since it does have range finder and positional tracking capability.

regardless of whether GPS is that accurate, magnetic orientation certainly isn't--and can't be. the magnetic north pole can move as much as 80km in a single day; it's impossible to get centimeter (much less millimeter) resolution off geomagnetism. i wouldn't even think meter resolution would be reliably possible.

another thing that occurs to me is that your solution requires the smartlink to know what you want to shoot at. i've never seen that mentioned in any canon description of the technology, and i don't think it could be done at all without DNI (meaning non-implanted smartlinks would require completely different technology).

and overall, really, it's like going around your elbow to get to your thumb. there's no real need to link smartlink technology to GPS technology; it's much easier to make it self-contained, and linking it to GPS opens up a lot of weaknesses that smartlinks wouldn't otherwise have. for instance, using GPS means you're constantly broadcasting your targeting information. that can reveal your location to the enemy, via triangulation, and of course anybody who can decrypt it will know who you're trying to shoot at. plus, as i mentioned above, it means your smartlink can be jammed.

it's a pretty shiny idea, but i don't think it's the best explanation for smartlink technology.

Posted by: martindv Jan 1 2008, 05:11 AM

Well, it can be jammed anyway if you're using a wireless connection between the link and the gun, the link and the HUD, or the link the HUD and the gun.

Posted by: Abbandon Jan 1 2008, 10:11 AM

Why do you have to be looking at what you are shooting at? Your gun has a camera and sends what it see's to your cybereyes or your external visual device. If the picture has a crosshair over a bad guy you shoot if it doesnt you dont, nevermind the fact that you are facing the other way and kicking some guy in the kneecap.

As far as giving commands to your smartlink. Personally I think all you should need is any piece of cyber. You would then be able to send a command to the implant and then implant could either pass the signal along directly to the skinned gun through your body or it would pass it along to your skinned commlink through your body which would then beam the command to the gun wirelessly.

However just to cover the bases my guy uses a datajack with skinlink. My dni commands goto it, it transmits the command over my skin to the skinlink on my gun.

Posted by: knasser Jan 1 2008, 12:56 PM

QUOTE (Abbandon)

I think I've just come up with a new Pistols skill specialisation - Smartlink.

Going with the targetting directions idea (which apparently I've ripped off from an eighties arcade game - KK.

), once targets were identified, you wouldn't actually need an image of them in order to fire. SR2070's technology is certainly capable of keeping track of mobile targets. I'm picturing a system whereby all the person has to do is following the tracking pointers with their arm and pull the trigger when the icon flashes red. You would only have to train yourself in the counter-intuitive habit of moving your arm according to directions on a screen, but I'm sure this skill could be acquired quickly and come to the point where it's almost a reflex. The only thing that would limit your aiming would be identifying the targets and the awkwardness of firing at odd angles.

But the image of this is perfect. I can see a Samurai entering a room or lurking in the shadows, looking at each opponent in there and mentally flagging them as targets to his smart-link system. She then walks through the room never turning aside, whilst rapidly shooting people in all directions without looking. Maybe we're talking the betaware systems here, but it's certainly comfortably in SR2070 technology's ability. I'm surprised we didn't see some sort of tactical computer in Augmentation, but presumably there'll be something like it in Arsenal. Which ought to be out soon, I hope.

Posted by: Abbandon Jan 1 2008, 03:50 PM

Heh were going off topic now but maybe if you threw a handful of little ball drones into whatever room or area your targets were in they would all calculate trajectories and stuff between your gun and the targets in the room real time.

Then you could run, cartwheel, sommersault through the room and shoot at everything like you said. I dont know I would think that would require some cyber that can move your limbs according to wireless commands from the drones. There would be safety limits put in place so the cyber doesnt snap your arms backwards or something which is where the skill would come into play. Learning how to contort your body so they have maximum fields of fire.

Its basically the same thing as gunkata, firing at the places where you think people will be instead of actually aiming at them. Thats whats its called in the few movies that have had a guy dance around in the center of a mob and kill everything while evading all the bullets.

Posted by: martindv Jan 2 2008, 04:31 AM

There are more of those movies? Oh dear.

Posted by: DireRadiant Jan 2 2008, 05:58 AM

QUOTE (Riley37)

RAW says that a smartgun user can eject a clip as a Free Action, without moving a finger, and can also fire without pulling the trigger. How exactly does the system get this input, if the user has an image link on goggles and no DNI? I'd say those functions are only available if the user has DNI such as trodenet or datajack.

The Image Link is the Output to the User, the Smart Link device is the AR Input device. That's why you pay for this separate input device as a separate system. Instead of AR gloves, it's an AR SmartGun system.

Posted by: Riley37 Jan 2 2008, 10:48 AM

QUOTE (DireRadiant)

the Smart Link device is the AR Input device

Since I've never seen one in real life, please describe exactly what action by the user is detected and recognized by the device. I know that a keyboard triggers on fingers pressing keys, I am familiar with devices that trigger on sound produced by the vocal cords, and I'm aware of devices that track motions of the eyeball. In each case, a muscle (or set of muscles) in the human body is contracting and producing motion that the device takes as input. What exactly is the motion that a smartlink recognizes as "when this input happens, eject the clip"?

Even if RAW failed to mention that GPS doesn't work indoors... in real life, and in any fantasy world in which radio signals work the same as real life, a GPS only works when it can pick up signals from GPS satellites. Cloud cover, tree branches, etc. can reduce accuracy or completely block signals.

If smartlink always involves the glasses/goggles/etc including visual sensors, then that's relevant; sure, most people who buy smartlinks are also getting glasses/goggles that have camera-type devices, eg image recorder, vis mag, vis enhance, etc., but not necessarily. And as has been pointed out, a sensor on glasses doesn't match the user's field of vision unless they're always looking straight ahead (and no normal human always does so).

It looks to me as if someone writing for SR3 had a specific concept of how it works, involving interaction with the user's central nervous system, and someone copying material into SR4 only knew or cared about the cost and the functions.

Specialization for smartlink makes sense to me, and seems balanced enough in a street-level campaign, since if you lose your main gun and have to pick up another gun, the odds of it not being smartlinked are generally comparable to it not being a revolver, not being a slivergun, or other typical specialization. In a higher-end campaign, most guns you encounter will have smartlink.

Posted by: DireRadiant Jan 2 2008, 08:21 PM

First describe a DNI to me, then I'll do the smartgun system.

It might be as simple as the smartgun system tracks eye movement and when the eye focuses over the eject clip menu option in the projected HUD in the image link the clip ejects.

Posted by: Karaden Jan 2 2008, 08:49 PM

QUOTE (DireRadiant)

That is way too simple and makes far too much sense.

Posted by: Riley37 Jan 3 2008, 10:27 PM

QUOTE (DireRadiant)

DNI exists IRL. Not, of course, at the level of a Shadowrun datajack, but surgically implanting wires into people's central nervous system to sense activity in specific areas of the brain, and to stimulate specific areas of the brain, has been in progress since at least the 1980s. I imagine a datajack as a very, very complex and intrusive system of microwires implanted into frontal cortex, a processor to sort out the signals, and a literal jack like a phone jack (or ethernet or FireWire) probably behind the ear. If the smartlink system plugs into *that*, or an induction-based equivalent (trodenet), then of course it can correlate the image from the gun with the image from the eyes, because it has access to both.

But as written, you can just put on specially modified glasses, and if the glasses have microcameras to track your eye motion, that's not clear from the rules; it's only clear that the glasses have extra fancy capacities to overlay the HUD onto the user's field of vision.

I like your idea. It would have to be a little more tricky to avoid inadvertent clip ejection when a sudden noise causes a reflexive glance in that particular direction, but that's doable.

Posted by: Karaden Jan 3 2008, 10:43 PM

QUOTE (Riley37)

QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Jan 2 2008, 03:21 PM)

I think it is going to require a bit more then just glancing in the direction of the icon.

But, since the smartlink is quite a large modifier (costing a whoping 3 capacity or 6 avalibility on glasses) it can be assumed that you are paying for a system that is capable of telling where you are looking, and something that allows your eye movements to trigger the gun (perhaps something as simple as two quick blinks to fire the gun, or as complex as two left winks, a right wink, two blinks, and then another left wink). I mean, a simple image link can display virtually anything you want it to, and since it can overlay AR onto your vision (and over particular objects), it must have some means of telling where you are looking. It is quite likely that a small eye motion detector is standard on -all- eyeware. This also requires the glasses themselves to somehow know where they are looking, so this must also be a standard feature of all eyeware. Thus, if your glasses or whatever can tell where they are facing, spesificly where your eye is looking, and where your gun is held in relation, and where your gun's smartgun camera is looking, then smartgun can happen. The other possibility is that all eyeware comes with a small camera that can't record anything, but is used soly to tell where you are looking. It matches this up with the image captured by the smartgun camera, and thus can provide your overlay. Where your eyes are looking is irrelevent except to possably activate features (like auto-eject).

I suppose the end point is that given another 62 or so years, I'm sure that we can come up with the technology to make this sort of thing possable, and although I don't know for sure how it works, that doesn't mean it can't work. Also, once again, keep in mind that you've got a fairly big investment in the smartlink, so it makes sense that that investment is the stuff required to do all this cool stuff for you.

Ok, that is poorly spaced and whatnot, sorry about that everyone. I know I rambled a bit as well.

Posted by: Ravor Jan 6 2008, 04:16 PM

Personally I rule that without some source of DNI (Which in my games means a Datajack since Trodes aren't an option.) all a smartlink can do is be a really fancy HUD system, still quite useful, but when the fluff says that a user can eject a clip by issuing a mental command, it means just that.

But then again, I don't allow Deckers to hack just as effectively by typing as they can using DNI commands either...

Posted by: Abbandon Jan 6 2008, 04:51 PM

Goin with the look at the eject button on the menu theory...
-first the smartlink system is probably what tracks your eye movements. And yes smartlink IS required if you intend to use a smartgun and get +2, it specifically says so.

-second I imagine that you would focus on the eject button and then to prevent accidental mishaps there would be a confirmation button appear in the totally opposite direction on the screen. top/bottom. left/right. Unless you focus on both buttons in a relatively short time frame the clip does not eject and the confirm button disappears.

the signal would then travel out of the glasses, over your skin, and into the gun
or
our of your cyber eyes, through your brain to your datajack, across your skin, and into the gun.

Its still debatable whether cyber inside your body can transmit signals through your body to the outside of your skin and to the gun. Also what about skinlinked your eyeballs so it doesnt have to goto a datajack first?? Eyelids are just skin.

Posted by: Ravor Jan 6 2008, 10:30 PM

Well personally I wouldn't allow it and make up something about a Datajack having all of the specialized equipment and programing needed, however, via RAW coupled with some clarification by the designers after AUG was released I don't see any reason you couldn't use another piece of cyber, except for security reasons, after all, do you really want the first node that a Decker comes across being something that you really can't afford to turn off? (And before you talk about skinlink being unhackable, awhile back someone on these boards asked why couldn't you skinlink an upgraded RFID Tag and then stick one of those to a person to use as a gateway. Skinlinks are more secure then wireless, but hardly something I'd want to trust my life to.)

As for whether or not skinlinked cyber works, well I think it depends on the DM running the game, personally I allow skinlink to work through unarmored cloths and figure that it isn't hard to run several nanowires to the surface of the skin from the cyber in question that you want to use it you require actual skin to skin contact.

Posted by: Abbandon Jan 7 2008, 12:25 AM

Hmmm skinned RFID's..... forget screwing over a guys smartlink if you allowed something like that or if it was possable then why couldnt you just shoot some street samurai with one of those and shut down all of his cyber he has.

Ugh....

Posted by: Jhaiisiin Jan 7 2008, 12:27 AM

In my own games, I'd likely rule that certain actions, such as changing firing modes, ejecting smartgun clips, and the like, simply can't be done with some sort of neural link, be it through trodes, implanted smartlink or whatever. If it's just goggles and gun, you still have to do the physical actions manually, as you *can't* issue a mental command to the gun, due to the lack of an interface to transmit that command. Any implanted smartlink, however, is interacting directly with the conscious portions of your brain, and you're sending a literal command over the wire to the gun to do X action. The cybernetic versions should always be superior because they're integrated into the body, and thus getting more information, and have more access than a simple set of goggles.

Posted by: Fortune Jan 7 2008, 02:56 AM

QUOTE (Jhaiisiin)

In my own games, I'd likely rule that certain actions, such as changing firing modes, ejecting smartgun clips, and the like, simply can't be done with some sort of neural link, be it through trodes, implanted smartlink or whatever.

...

The cybernetic versions should always be superior because they're integrated into the body, and thus getting more information, and have more access than a simple set of goggles.

That's my ruling as well.

Posted by: mfb Jan 7 2008, 03:27 AM

i would allow it because the rules don't disallow it--and, more importantly, because it allows me greater freedom to describe shiny tech stuff. maybe it's low-power lasers that reflect off the inner face of your goggle lenses to track your eye movements; maybe it's a special-purpose low-fi trode rig built into your contacts; maybe it's some other freaky thing. it provides me with more room to make stuff up while maintaining the integrity of the rules, therefore i like it.

Posted by: Ravor Jan 7 2008, 06:42 AM

Abbandon well it wouldn't be quite as simple as simply shooting someone, since the RFID Tag would actually have to survive impact, but yeah, anyone dumb enough not to use life & death security setups for their cyber deserves to get royally fragged over.

The basic setup that I suggest is a skinlink capable Betagrade+ datajack running enough IC to make Deus flinch as the only gateway into your body, with all of your cyber hardwired into the jack.

The IC on the jack is more concerned about detecting intruders then actually fragging nosy Deckers, and the jack is programed to go offline if an intruder is actually detected.

Oh, and even with this setup, remember, only connect your ware to the jack when you actually have to, yes it is a pain to subscribe and unscribe your cybereyes/ears when you want to watch the Trid, but believe me, getting into the habit of taking those extra few seconds just might save your life someday chummer.

Posted by: Jhaiisiin Jan 7 2008, 08:54 AM

That could suck... "I know RunnerGuy pipes a ton of useful crap through his datajack. I'll just fail a hack attempt at it and wait for it to shut down and then we can gank him because he'll be fraggin' scragged on his gear and toys!"

Posted by: Ravor Jan 8 2008, 04:16 PM

Very true, and if RunnerGuy allows himself to be put in a situation where his datajack can be accessed in the middle of a firefight then he is opening himself up to that risk, one of the reasons that even with cybereyes/ears, every smart runner should still buy a pair of dataglasses and earphones and pipe as much incoming data as possible through them using a second comlink.

However, I still say that using a Betagrade + datajack as a chokepoint to your cyberware is alot more secure then the other options.