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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Ghost in the Shell

Posted by: Enigma Jan 2 2008, 09:41 AM

Hi,

I am sorry to go a bit off Shadowrun, but it may be of use in Shadowrun so that's my thin, thin relevance to the game.

Anyway, I have seen the Ghost in the Shell movie. That is all. I know that there are other Ghost in the Shell things around, like a TV series, but I know not of them. Could someone who knows about this please answer me the following - assuming I am interested in movies and TV shows and not interested in reading actual manga/books in English or Japanese, what else is there around apart from the GITS movie? Also, is any of it any good at all?

Posted by: Crusher Bob Jan 2 2008, 09:51 AM

The 1st GiTS and the 2nd GiTS: Innocence

There are also the tv series GiTS: Stand Alone Complex (SAC) with two seasons, referred to as 1st gig and 2nd gig.

There's also a movie based on the TV series: Solid State Society.

Posted by: Enigma Jan 2 2008, 09:59 AM

Thanks very much - your help is appreciated.

I know this is a loaded question and all, but are any of the things you mentioned any good, entertainment wise?

Posted by: Crusher Bob Jan 2 2008, 10:04 AM

Depends on your taste, I guess. Innocence might be described as 'selected reading from philosophy textbooks with audiovisual accompanyment'. The TV show is much more accessible, even more so than the first movie

Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 2 2008, 10:09 AM

and don't forget the little parts about the tachikoma on the end of every episode . . i'm a man and i still find that cute *g*
let that =V= be a Warning to you all

[ Spoiler ]

Posted by: Fortune Jan 2 2008, 10:47 AM

Thanks for asking this question Enigma. I have been meaning to find out about these myself.

Posted by: Daddy's Little Ninja Jan 2 2008, 01:54 PM

QUOTE (Crusher Bob @ Jan 2 2008, 05:04 AM)

Right, the 2nd movie is wonderful to look at as animation but really dense to follow.

The two TV series and the 3rd movie (Solid State Society) are really good for SR.
No magic or metas but lots of sami and deckers. (maybe some riggers hard to say with those combat suits) and yes, they are very good for cyber punk. They show the real quality of writing in anime not rushing to tie up neat little points in 1 episode.

Each of the two series has an over all theme spread over the season with individual adventures inside the season. The first season has only a very broad theme-investigating some hacker leads to a case of corp corruption.

Season 2 (aka 2nd Gig) is more tightly written. Its starts with a group of political radicals and moves into a leader of a quasi revolutionary group among illegal aliens/refugees.

Solid State Society is like the TV series in that it is a long episode/short adventure, dealing with children being kidnapped and mercenaries committing suicide.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 2 2008, 03:41 PM

Mobile Armored Riot Police is actually not good for cyberpunk at all, considering that in all forms it mostly involves battling to uphold the social system (the "Police" in the name is a hint). Post-cyberpunk, maybe, but I don't think it has quite fallen victim to that disease.

Anyway, in my opinion the general quality spectrum runs thusly:

First movie ~= Innocence > first manga = 1.5 manga > Stand Alone Complex > 2nd Gig > Solid State Society > second manga

I'd recommend most of it except for Solid State Society and the second manga, but even those are entertaining (just, you know, not enough that I can properly recommend them). I'll also warn you that because of the quality of the top end of the list, the bottom end gets judged more harshly than might totally unrelated media—I think Solid State Society would have bothered me less, for example, if it weren't for several scenes which were clumsily (and obviously) designed to echo parts of the first film. Innocence has echoes as well, but they're, well, actually done in an effective manner IMO.

~J

Posted by: Karaden Jan 2 2008, 04:20 PM

QUOTE (Stahlseele)

[ Spoiler ]

No really, don't read this unless you've finished watching the second season, as it will ruin 33% of the ending.

[ Spoiler ]

Posted by: mfb Jan 2 2008, 06:53 PM

GitS:SAC, 2nd Gig, and Solid State Society are fucking awesome. i'm less of a fan of GitS and GitS: Innocence; to me, they both spend too much time hammering you over the head with philosophy that you caught in the first half hour, and not enough badass action sequences. the action stuff that's there is really badass, though. definitely worth watching.

Karaden, watch Solid State Society.

Kage, i think it's fair to call GitS cyberpunk. the main characters may spend all their time upholding society, but that society spends almost all its time trying to corrupt itself--from the top down, from the bottom up, and from the inside out.

Posted by: kigmatzomat Jan 2 2008, 07:32 PM

I will heartily recommend the GitS TV series, both for entertainment value and SR (particularly SR4) material. The stories are well written. They tend to repeat certain things over and over, which is really only noticeable if you watch the eps back to back on Tivo or DVD, rather than weekly.

One neat thing is they tend to identify which eps are core to the plot and which are tangents. Side plots will be marked "Standalone" in the title. They still have impact on the over all story but are not involved in the crux of the seasonal plot.

If you want to use GitS for SR, keep in mind that everyone in GitS has an implanted cyberdeck/comm with a full simsense interface. Of course, everyone in SR4 has a comm with optical/audio gear (glasses/contacts, earbuds, etc) and probably some non-hot Simsense so you can still hack people's glasses even if you don't hack their eyes.

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jan 2 2008, 07:44 PM

QUOTE (kigmatzomat)

If you want to use GitS for SR, keep in mind that everyone in GitS has an implanted cyberdeck/comm with a full simsense interface. Of course, everyone in SR4 has a comm with optical/audio gear (glasses/contacts, earbuds, etc) and probably some non-hot Simsense so you can still hack people's glasses even if you don't hack their eyes.

Right. SAC is full of inspiration for cool "I can do that?" ideas for AR in SR, for players and GMs alike.

Posted by: Sir_Psycho Jan 3 2008, 03:37 AM

You can't go past Innocence for homicidal anthroform prostitute drone inspiration.

Posted by: martindv Jan 3 2008, 08:21 AM

It's hardly original inspiration.

Posted by: Daddy's Little Ninja Jan 3 2008, 03:00 PM

One of the early episodes of 2nd Gig has a great back drop. The team is providing security for a corp party where powerful men show off the sex androids. These are their robotic mistress' that they keep secret, because they are considered perverted by the general population..

Posted by: Siege Jan 3 2008, 10:30 PM

If you have the chance, watch http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/anime.php?id=361.

It was a spin-off from the "Bubblegum Crisis" anime with some seriously creepy episodes.

-Siege

Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 3 2008, 10:35 PM

and while we're at it, whyx not put in akira and patlabor too? or appleseed? but i digress . .

Posted by: Karaden Jan 3 2008, 10:50 PM

QUOTE (mfb)

Karaden, watch Solid State Society.

Alright, will do.

Posted by: MaxHunter Jan 4 2008, 03:24 PM

I watched them all. I really enjoyed the first movie, liked a lot the animation of the second though it's too philosophic. The tv series are great, I really enjoyed the 2nd Gig. I also have to absolutely recommend Akira.

And as it seems I am not adding much new to the discussion, I would also like to suggest watching Denno Coil, a cute anime series about hacker children. It's really great.

Cheers,

Max

Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 4 2008, 03:51 PM

nah, dennou coil wasn't that good i'd have to say . .
it's a nice idea of how to view the AR in SR4, but nothing more . .

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 4 2008, 04:57 PM

Akira's a pretty solid recommendation, especially for Chicago-like situations, but that's a pretty big series to read through just for inspiration (though it's totally worth it for its own merits).

~J

Posted by: PBTHHHHT Jan 4 2008, 05:12 PM

QUOTE (Siege)

If you have the chance, watch http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/anime.php?id=361.

It was a spin-off from the "Bubblegum Crisis" anime with some seriously creepy episodes.

-Siege

You just have to differentiate between the original bugglegum crisis and ad police files of the 80's and the bubblegum crisis 2040 and its respective ad police series... And then there's this other series that's kinda in the bubblegum crisis world that I have the dvd to which was horrid so I will not name it (actually I forgot the name so it shall remain unnamed).

Dennou coil is okay, the AR aspect really is the best part, especially the hacker fight in episode 4 or so. That and the nice aspect of red tape and bureaucracy shown such as the administrative enforcement programs that cannot enter homes, schools or temples, the schools being part of the department of education turf, and the temples being part of the department of ministry (IIRC) turf. That can be kinda used in shadowrun between the government administration bots roaming around the city proper itself but can't go into corp territory, etc...

Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 4 2008, 05:53 PM

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

reading it is so totally worth it . . even if it ain't worth it for Shadowrun purposes *g*
but the movie in itself is good enough too, even if most of the books is missing in there . .

Posted by: nezumi Jan 4 2008, 06:22 PM

So which of the bubblegum crisis animes is best?

Posted by: PBTHHHHT Jan 4 2008, 07:28 PM

QUOTE (nezumi @ Jan 4 2008, 01:22 PM)

So which of the bubblegum crisis animes is best?

depends on what you like.
I felt that the Bubblegum Crisis 2037 is great for the 80's feel.
The AD Police files is great for the one shot stories of the bleakness feel of living in that world.

The newer Bubblegum Crisis series, it took me a bit to get used to it, but what I like about it is well... they actually got into the story concerning what's going on and the character history. Stuff that 2037 never got to because of it being canceled too early.

I liked the mecha design better in 2037, the newer ones I personally found a bit hideous in terms of the technology/design feel. The character designs, well, I do like that the 2040 version of Linna actually had a larger part than the 2037 version. Overall, watch both, and then in your memories substitute the 2040 series with the look and feel of the 2037 series and you're good to go.

In regards to the new AD Police series, I still havent' finished it... judge that as you will.

As for the series that I didn't name earlier, it's known as Parasite Dolls, it's a three episode OAV of a secret group in the AD police and its definitely set in the 2037 universe. Not so good really, I got it because I was a completist and wanted to get my hands on it. The one thing this series does show is...

[ Spoiler ]

Which works for Shadowrun.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 4 2008, 08:15 PM

personally, i like patlabor stile-wise . . but it's not really shadowrun useable . . at least . . NOT YET ! A HYUK A HYUK! *g*

Posted by: PBTHHHHT Jan 5 2008, 08:57 PM

QUOTE (Stahlseele)

personally, i like patlabor stile-wise . . but it's not really shadowrun useable . . at least . . NOT YET ! A HYUK A HYUK! *g*

One of my favorites from the patlabor series is the movie, WXIII. Very far removed from the patlabors other than its in the background and at the end when they need to call in the labors. I just love the style there and the change from the usual mecha movies.

Posted by: tete Jan 9 2008, 05:09 PM

Just a note, the first film and first series are both the same story from the original manga just interpreted by different directors. Puppeteer (manga)=Puppet master (film)=Laughing Man (series). I would say of the three the series is by far the best by expanding more into the personal lives of the section 9 officers and there by making it more compelling of a story.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 9 2008, 06:13 PM

I, um… either you're completely off-base, or I desperately need to reread the manga. It has no meaningful resemblance whatsoever that I can remember.

Innocence spoiler:

[ Spoiler ]

Posted by: PBTHHHHT Jan 9 2008, 06:43 PM

Another interesting thing is if you read the mangas, you'll see quite a few parts that are later used in the stand alone complex series (and film). That includes the sniper fight in the later film, I saw that in one of the mangas (IIRC).

Posted by: PBTHHHHT Jan 9 2008, 06:47 PM

QUOTE (Crusher Bob)

Except for that last episode of the first season of Stand Alone Complex. Quite a bit of referencing to different philosophies in under a five minute span. I had to rewatch it a few times and then look up stuff to appreciate it a bit more. *sigh* They're putting thinking stuff into my bang-bang action entertainment... the horrors!!!

Posted by: Daddy's Little Ninja Jan 9 2008, 07:08 PM

There are a couple of those about 1/2 way through 2nd Gig that you really have to back up and rewatch. One with Batou and the bad guy on a roof top, and one with the Tachikomas. Having them talk philosophy in their sing song voices is really distracting.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 9 2008, 07:10 PM

the tachikomas are somehow ALLWAYS distracting to me at least x.x . .
but heck, i like them even better that way *g*
one of the best reasons to watch the whole show is to see the tachikoma special on the end of each episode ^^

Posted by: martindv Jan 10 2008, 08:59 PM

The only way I could have gotten through 2nd Gig was that I took a Japanese History class (Meiji-Present) in college.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 10 2008, 10:19 PM

what's that got to do with anything?

Posted by: Hocus Pocus Jan 11 2008, 04:00 AM

have watched several episodes of this show and never really got into it. Yeah the chick isn't bad and i can see the shadowrun aspects but it never jostled my junk to a degree of anything above mild interest.

Posted by: Daddy's Little Ninja Jan 11 2008, 02:41 PM

Hocus- glad to see you- you just do not like the fact the show has an almost all male cast and the main female character is a mature woman.

QUOTE (martindv @ Jan 10 2008, 03:59 PM)

The only way I could have gotten through 2nd Gig was that I took a Japanese History class (Meiji-Present) in college.

I'm going to second that. Considering it is set after a significant change in the world with 2 world wars, one nuclear one not I do not see why you needed a history class. That is like saying you need a history class before you play SR.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 11 2008, 03:40 PM

QUOTE

That is like saying you need a history class before you play SR.

feels like it often enough *g*

Posted by: Hocus Pocus Jan 11 2008, 04:02 PM

QUOTE (Daddy's Little Ninja)

Hocus- glad to see you- you just do not like the fact the show has an almost all male cast and the main female character is a mature woman.

The sight of an intelligent, mature, competent woman in a leadership role both frightens, and intimidates me to the 25th power! Gimmie the ultra hot, vapid, naive, buxom babe any day O the week! They should fill the ranks with those instead of the all male supporting cast. That'd definately draw my interest and many others ta boot lemme tell ya.

Posted by: Snow_Fox Jan 12 2008, 02:26 AM

Hocus, the Major is an intelligent, mature woman with a gun. If you were very lucky she'd only test the limits of your dental plan.

Posted by: martindv Jan 12 2008, 03:22 AM

QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jan 10 2008, 05:19 PM)

what's that got to do with anything?

If you have to ask, then you probably weren't paying close enough attention to the story.

QUOTE (Daddy's Little Ninja)

Well, because of it I knew who the Individualist Eleven were based on, and therefore had a grasp on the entire plot of Section 9 trying to figure out who and what was going on.

So why it mattered to me, and was crucial to following the show, was because history and politics were so obviously important to the writers.

QUOTE (Snow_Fox)

Hocus, the Major is an intelligent, mature woman with a gun. If you were very lucky she'd only test the limits of your dental plan.

I'm terrified of the patron saint of lesbian stripper ninja characters.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 12 2008, 03:48 AM

I still say it's a travesty that they cut the lesbian orgy pin-up from the US manga release.

~J

Posted by: martindv Jan 12 2008, 04:32 AM

Good grief.

Posted by: Hocus Pocus Jan 12 2008, 07:06 AM

QUOTE (Snow_Fox)

Hocus, the Major is an intelligent, mature woman with a gun. If you were very lucky she'd only test the limits of your dental plan.

hots, but I think if I was very lucky she'd test ALL my limits!

Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 12 2008, 01:10 PM

QUOTE

QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jan 10 2008, 05:19 PM)
what's that got to do with anything?

If you have to ask, then you probably weren't paying close enough attention to the story.

well, no, of course not O.o
i watch such stuff for the action . . heck, the way i watched NGE only took about 2 hours for the complete series *g*

Posted by: Snow_Fox Jan 12 2008, 07:31 PM

The explained the "Individual 11" incident in the cartoon, the terrorist group in the toon was based on a false book that never existed-something that also came out in the toon.

GitS is really well written and 2nd Gig has the tightest writing of all. They waste nothing and give you all the details you need, but you do have to pay attention. Just watch it for the shoot ups and you miss that.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 12 2008, 07:39 PM

yeah, but if you watch it for that, you're gonna miss the shoot ups O.o
i watch anime to have fun, not to have some deep philosophical cultural, historical experience . . because there's neither magic nor mecha in those! *g*

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 12 2008, 07:48 PM

What?

If you're going to claim that 2nd Gig has tight writing, you're going to have to do some serious 'splaining regarding episodes 10, 11, and 14.

~J

Posted by: Snow_Fox Jan 12 2008, 08:44 PM

which were those?

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 12 2008, 08:55 PM

The trial episode, the episode about Kusanagi's memories, and the episode with the sharpshooter-guy playing poker and telling stories (possibly fictional) about his past.

They all served a purpose, IIRC, but managed to do so in a way that, even for the memories one (which introduced some major new information), the series would have been left stronger if they'd simply not been included.

~J

Posted by: Fortune Jan 12 2008, 09:00 PM

QUOTE (Snow Fox)

which were those?

The episodes between numbers 9 and 12, and the one after episode 13.

Posted by: martindv Jan 12 2008, 11:31 PM

QUOTE (Snow_Fox)

The explained the "Individual 11" incident in the cartoon, the terrorist group in the toon was based on a false book that never existed-something that also came out in the toon.

Yes, waiting for Ms. Exposition at the end was really very useful.

Posted by: PBTHHHHT Jan 13 2008, 01:37 AM

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

Well they had to fill out 26 episodes for the season and they wanted to give some more info background on the characters, especially in regards to the sniper guy and kusanagi. Plus, the Kusanagi episode in the first part was showing how they tested the recruits. Yeah, they aren't as strong as the rest of the season, but c'mon, overall the season was pretty good. The trial episode I really like at the end also of how the section 9 got rid of pesky elements such as lawyers.

Posted by: Snow_Fox Jan 13 2008, 04:26 AM

Kusanagi's memories also set up the relationship between her and Kuze later.

The trial episode gives you an idea how screwed up the court system is, which is why they have no faith in it later on and why Ghoda is so contemptuous of the threat of being arrested, and yeah, loved how Section 9 dealt with the problem. which also shows they can be cold in search of Justice.

The Saito episode exists as mainly filler, but remember it is told while they are on guard duty at a state visit from the "American Empire" and you see more of this relationship exposed at the climax of 2nd gig.

The 1st season of GitS certainly has much more filler episodes with the Laughing Man over all theme getting a much less prominent placement than the Individual 11/Kuze plot in 2nd Gig. Though the fact the Individual 11 was a faux book was revealed about half way through, when the guys chop off their heads. Togasa confronts the newspaper man who tells him that, right before he slashes his own throat.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 13 2008, 04:54 AM

QUOTE (Snow_Fox @ Jan 12 2008, 11:26 PM)

Kusanagi's memories also set up the relationship between her and Kuze later.

That's actually kinda my point. It's an episode that managed to be so badly-written that despite setting up the most important relationship in the series (2nd Gig specifically, I mean—in the overall collection of works, Kusanagi-Batou and Batou-Fuchikoma obviously beat it out), the series would have been better off without it.

QUOTE

The trial episode gives you an idea how screwed up the court system is, which is why they have no faith in it later on and why Ghoda is so contemptuous of the threat of being arrested, and yeah, loved how Section 9 dealt with the problem. which also shows they can be cold in search of Justice.

Again, though, I've already recognized that they play roles—however, having to include a full episode of half-baked legal drama to do so is not a mark of good, or even decent, writing.

QUOTE

The Saito episode exists as mainly filler, but remember it is told while they are on guard duty at a state visit from the "American Empire" and you see more of this relationship exposed at the climax of 2nd gig.

See above, only about ten times more so. Any episode in which you can spare a shot of a delegation or official vehicle plus about a minute of dialogue talking about it is an episode in which you can accomplish everything this episode did in terms of furthering the overall plot. In the meantime, you get to make the rest of the episode worth watching—this one was at best pointless and at worst ridiculous. On the other hand, it's the only one in which the plot-furthering itself wasn't done badly.

QUOTE

The 1st season of GitS certainly has much more filler episodes with the Laughing Man over all theme getting a much less prominent placement than the Individual 11/Kuze plot in 2nd Gig.

I'm not criticizing filler episodes as such—at least not the kinds of filler episodes we're discussing (episodes that don't relate to the main plot—hot spring/beach trip episodes need not apply), and I can't really comment in any depth on the first season as it has been significantly longer since I watched it.

There's more to complain about in 2nd Gig's writing, IIRC—even in the good episodes, I'm pretty sure I remember the overall plot development being done hamhandedly with some frequency—but so long as the episode itself is worth watching it doesn't stick in my mind well enough to conduct a discussion about it. The three above did not meet that standard.

~J

Posted by: mfb Jan 13 2008, 06:41 AM

hamhanded compared to what? i can think of few TV shows or movies that work with as much subtlety as GitS:SAC. i mean, if you want to talk hamhanded, let's look at the original movie and its sequel! the philosophizing in Innocence left contusions.

Posted by: Snow_Fox Jan 14 2008, 02:54 AM

Right, I see it as incredibly subtle. They don't telegraph what they are doing like so many programs do, you have to pay attention to the episodes to get the 2 minutes of eprtinant stuff out of a 22 minute episode but later, when they reveal the important stuff, you appreciate "Oh yeah, they did set this up already!" Rather than just surprise you, like:
"Konzudo Ghoda, per law 25.25 section C, that we haven't mentioned in the last 25 episodes, you cannot leave the country." And I'm trying to avoid spoilers since this thread was started by someone who wants to know 'is it worth watching?'
The point is by the time they wrap up the threads, you realize that they did set up important details in an episode you took for granted as filler. That is what I think of as tight writing.

Posted by: Enigma Jan 22 2008, 01:25 PM

Alright, the next question is this. I have seen the Ghost in the Shell movie only. If I am interested in watching this wealth of material previously unknown to me in chronological order (storyline order not production order) then is there a particular order I should watch things in, or does it not matter.

Also, thank you all for your very helpful posts.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 22 2008, 01:31 PM

You can watch Innocence at any time. You should watch the first season of SAC before the second season, though it isn't imperative; the second mostly depends on the first in terms of characterization (though also the fu^H^Htachikoma plotline is mostly set up in the first season). If you're going to watch Solid State Society, do it after watching SAC.

I would advise reading the first manga before watching SAC. The 1.5 manga can be read pretty much whenever. The second manga can be read whenever, and is IMO, like Solid State Society, optional.

Edit: ok, I'm still asleep. You were asking for chronological order. Ok, the thing is that there are three independent timelines going on, so the orders go like this:

Ghost in the Shell (movie) -> Innocence

Ghost in the Shell (manga) -> Human-Error Processor -> Man-Machine Interface

Stand-Alone Complex -> SAC: 2nd Gig -> SAC: Solid State Society

~J

Posted by: PBTHHHHT Jan 23 2008, 04:26 AM

And don't forget the novels they came out. yes, print, book, word novels.
they were written by several of the writers of the SAC series and it takes place in that time. Some of them are quite good.

Posted by: Daddy's Little Ninja Jan 23 2008, 07:23 PM

There are three books, written by the main writer of 2nd Gig, who is now directing the amine Blood+. The books seem to take place between the first season and 2nd Gig.

Of the 2 TV series you can watch them seperately. If you watch 2nd Gig first, it can be a little confusing when they say stuff like "Just like in the Laughing man case." But that does not really affect it. But you should watch Solid State Society only after 2nd Gig.