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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ What's the point of the assault rifle?

Posted by: SirPentor Jan 5 2008, 08:21 AM

One of my characters is a meat-shield type troll that shoots things. In terms of flavor and awesomeness, an Assault Cannon sounds pretty sweet. But I'm trying to justify that in terms of numbers. It's a single shot weapon that does 10P with -5AP. The Medium Machine Gun (which I currently have) does 6P with -2AP. Doing a full round narrow burst gives a +9 DV, for 15P with -2AP (if you use normal bullets). That's a whole heap load of recoil comp, but if you know you're going into combat I think you can get it compensated.

I might get one anyway, just because it sounds awesome. But I'd also love it to be at least as good.

Posted by: FriendoftheDork Jan 5 2008, 08:47 AM

I would go for the MMG if you want effectiveness. The PAC is too expensive and doesen't do enough damage for it's ammunition cost and availability. PACs are good as fashion statements though

Assaults rifles are pretty good. The Ares Alpha has only one higher AP than the MMG, is smaller and easier to put it a backback or slung over the shoulder, has free recoil comp. that stacs with gasvent, and a grenade launcher to boot! What more could a troll want? And you don't need a cumbersome tripod or gyro mount to shoot it effectively, which means you can bring it along fairly often. I may be mistaken but the AA could be Restricted, which means you could legally own it with a (fake) licence.

Posted by: Cthulhudreams Jan 5 2008, 08:51 AM

AA is forbidden, the FN HAR is restricted and what I normally use as my 'big automatics gun' though the alpha is a better gun.

Posted by: FriendoftheDork Jan 5 2008, 09:14 AM

QUOTE (Cthulhudreams)

AA is forbidden, the FN HAR is restricted and what I normally use as my 'big automatics gun' though the alpha is a better gun.

K my bad. This Thai internet cafe doesn't seem to have SR4

Still, nice weapon huh?

BTW I've always underestimated the HAR, but if you can walk on the street with it and show your fake license for it it's not that bad

Posted by: Cthulhudreams Jan 5 2008, 09:31 AM

Yeah, that is its (only?) plus point, otherwise the AA is, as you rightfully point out better in every respect. The FN HAR doesn't even have a smartlink

I wouldn't go so far as to say 'walk on the street,' but being able to present a valid license is nice if you have it in your car, or your bag, and someone wants to check it. That and a Ingram smartgun X are a pretty good combo for a mage or rigger or somefink to get serious mileage out of 'Automatics 1'

Posted by: Ryu Jan 5 2008, 10:06 AM

If you want to PUNCH through hardened armor / a spirits immunity, doing basic damage is the only thing of importance. High rate of fire does not apply.

Therefore you are usually better of with an automatic weapon of some kind, yes.

Posted by: Riley37 Jan 5 2008, 12:50 PM

Ask your GM about houseruling that big strong characters are bothered less by recoil.
There was a SR3 rule that didn't make it into SR4.

A maxed Alpha package is gas-vent-3 (on the barrel), bipod (under barrel), airburst link (over barrel), shockpad on the stock, for RC 6, and RC 8 when firing prone with bipod. You can get that entire package, including integral smartlink, for much less than the base cost of the MMG.
If you're shooting at a materialized spirit and need to punch through Immunity to Normal Weapons, go full auto for 15P; you'll take net -3 recoil with the maxed Ares. An equivalently equipped MMG would take -10 recoil (recoil 9, minus RC 4, is 5, doubled for MG is 10).
Firing with the Alpha gets 7 more dice to hit; firing with the Stoner MMG gets 1 more point of AP.

Alternately, you could fire a grenade and then a long burst, with -1 recoil penalty on the burst. Even if you have no Heavy Weapons skill and fire at AGL-1, you'll usually get a hit; with the airburst link, you just need that single hit to get the grenade within 1d6 meters of the target... flash-bangs and gas grenades have 10m radius effect, while frag has 6P left at 6m away, and might get luckily dead-on for 12P. I recommend a rank in HvWpns with Grenade Launcher specialization, though, because airburst with net hits results in bonus DV. Grenades also give a lot more flexibility. With the Stoner, you're a one-trick pony; with the Alpha, you might have anything from HESH to Neurostun in the lower barrel. Or, if you're going against bugs, you could load pesticide grenades; against plant spirits, you could load incindiaries; if the opposition has guard dogs, they'll flinch away from Pepper Punch; and so forth. A player in my group has a sniper character who designed grenade-launcher shells for deploying fly-spies over the area of operations. One might design a grenade-launcher munition that slaps a radio tracer onto a vehicle, if you want to track its getaway rather than blow it up. Heck, you could even design a low-velocity round that breaks open to splash nanotrode paste onto the target's head, pre-programmed with Black Hammer or a personafix BTL.

Posted by: FrankTrollman Jan 5 2008, 03:57 PM

You mean something like this?

Weapons have a strength minimum.
If you're using a weapon beyond your strength minimum, you suffer a -1 dicepool penalty on your attack, and a -2 penalty on all subsequent actions this round (including defense pools) for every point your Strength is exceeded.
Firing a burst or Suppressive Fire increases the strength minimum by 1. A Long Burst increases it by 2. Full Auto increases it by 3.
The effects of recoil modifiers are massive reduced. A Bipod reduces the Strength min by 2, a gyromount reduces it by 3. A recoil absorbing shape (stocks, shock pads, whatever) reduces the minimum by 1; a recoil increasing shape (hold-outs, for example) increase it by 1.
Gas Vents just get abstracted out because they are no longer necessary to allow people to fire bursts of automatic weaponry.
Drones have an "effective strength" equal to their Body. If they suffer recoil penalties, they fall over.
The Strength minimum of a weapon is the base damage minus 2. So it's 2 for a light pistol, 4 for an assault rifle (Flechette modifiers obviously don't apply).

Simple, and it eliminates the need for most of the accounting and stupid.

-Frank

Posted by: Karaden Jan 5 2008, 04:16 PM

The str minimum really kills you on something like a sniper rifle though. I know they have a good bit of recoil, but that isn't going to affect the shot before you make it, and it isn't going to require that massive of a str to use properly anyway. Perhaps you should assign str mins for each class of weapon ie Light pistols take str 2, assult weapons need 4, LMGs need 5, etc.

Oh, and one thing you need to keep in mind with the assult cannon, is that it can match range with a sniper rifle. This means you can put a scope on it, and sit 1500 Meters away and snipe people with it. Heck, you can even put a silencer on it and everything. I mean sure, 10P -5AP maybe can't match the full furry of an AA or HMG, but you don't have to worry about recoil, and you can use it from a massive range that will make your GM cry.

Also, you say that the assult cannon ammo is expensive? I really don't see it, it costs 7 a shot (70 for 10) as opposed to a weapon on full auto using up 18 of ammo per 'shot'. Also your burst weapons are going to take a complex action, meaning you can't do much, while the assult cannon is only a simple action, allowing you to dive for cover or do something else useful.

Posted by: Buster Jan 5 2008, 04:33 PM

The recoil mods shouldn't affect a sniper rifle anyways, you don't fire bursts out of a sniper rifle. Granted you won't get two great shots per round, but they are one-shot-one-kill tools, so their recoil could be a million and it won't matter because the target should be down on the first hit. (this is assuming the dam from sniper rifles is modded to match a burst assault rifle and are single shot wpns)

Posted by: FrankTrollman Jan 5 2008, 04:49 PM

You know, I'm actually totally OK if to properly use a sniper rifle you have to have a Strength of 5 or get on the ground and use it with a Bipod. That seems pretty reasonable to me all around.

Considering that normal people in fact do use high powered sniper rifles braced against something and put up on a bipod.

-Frank

Posted by: Karaden Jan 5 2008, 05:09 PM

QUOTE (Buster)

Yes, I understand that, but the first line on Frank's list is that if you don't have the Minimum Str required, then you get a -1 DP, even on that first shot, which is what I was complaining against.

QUOTE (FrankTrollman)

I'm fairly certain that real snipers don't use bipods, though I do agree that they tend to be in a prone position. I suggest adding something about prone (but not having a bipod) reduces the Str required to use a weapon. Maybe a simple -1 requirement. I can see someone with Str 4 prone being able to properly use a Sniper Rifle. I also suggest the rigid stock and shock pad of a sniper rifle reduce it by a further 1, thus allowing a Str 4 person in prone position able to use the stronger sniper rifle without penelty (As snipers really don't need to be all that strong)

Posted by: FrankTrollman Jan 5 2008, 05:18 PM

Then http://www.vandykerifles.com/images/custom-rifle2.jpg

Hell, if you just google up the word http://hqinet001.hqmc.usmc.mil/p&r/concepts/2006/Pics%20for%20web/C&P%202006%20High%20Res%20Images/C&P%202006%20Chap%203%20images%20HiRes/C&P2006%20CH%203%20Pg158%20Sniper.jpg, all the pictures have people using bipods. Why would they go prone and not use a bipod?

-Frank

Posted by: Karaden Jan 5 2008, 05:37 PM

I suppose I was just being stupid and thinking of something much much larger as the bipod, also something closer to the end of the barrel.

Posted by: Alex Jan 5 2008, 05:39 PM

There is a semi-auto sniper rifle availble to the US military that fires a 50 caliber round. The recoil is minimal compared to a bolt-action rifle but it is still there. They still use the bipod.

YouTube video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWJp14tkBlU

2:20 is about where he starts to fire 10 rounds in less than 10 seconds.

Posted by: Whipstitch Jan 5 2008, 06:06 PM

Here's why I like strength modifiers and suggestions like Frank's, even if they do need a bit of tweaking: Bipods and strength requirements are not JUST about recoil, they're about how unwieldy weapons can be to begin with. A remington 700 and similar rifles may only weigh around the neighborhood of a half dozen pounds to be charitable, but after a long day it can seem heavier than that when shouldered simply because it's around 40 inches long and some of that weight is on the other end of the barrel; that's just physics and leverage people, even shadowrun tech can't fix everything. And with a monstrosity like that m107, you're dealing with what? A 50 inch barrel and probably 20-30 pounds or so? I haven't looked much at the stats on those kind of weapons before but from eyeballing those pictures it looks a lot longer than my 12 gauge benelli pump action, and believe it or not that particular shotgun is a fair bit longer than many rifles I've seen. Recoil isn't even the beginning of your worries there; it's keeping the damned thing steady and pointed in the general direction you want to fire to begin with. It'd be stupid not to prop it up and apparently the military and Barret knows it. Anyway, bipods and other ways of propping up weapons are nice even with low recoil weapons because if nothing else they do a lot of the work of keeping the weapon steady for you.

Posted by: Glyph Jan 5 2008, 09:06 PM

QUOTE (Riley37)

If you're shooting at a materialized spirit and need to punch through Immunity to Normal Weapons, go full auto for 15P; you'll take net -3 recoil with the maxed Ares.

The extra damage from narrow bursts doesn't count when comparing the DV vs. the armor rating. If you want to punch through hardened armor, use wide bursts - they take dice away from the defender, leaving you with more net hits, which do count against armor.

By the way, for machine guns, I like the Ingram White Knight. Sure, you lose one point of AP, but you start out with 6 points of recoil compensation.

Posted by: Riley37 Jan 5 2008, 09:22 PM

QUOTE (FrankTrollman)

You mean something like this?

Weapons have a strength minimum.
If you're using a weapon beyond your strength minimum, you suffer a -1 dicepool penalty on your attack, and a -2 penalty on all subsequent actions this round (including defense pools) for every point your Strength is exceeded.
Firing a burst or Suppressive Fire increases the strength minimum by 1. A Long Burst increases it by 2. Full Auto increases it by 3.
The effects of recoil modifiers are massive reduced. A Bipod reduces the Strength min by 2, a gyromount reduces it by 3. A recoil absorbing shape (stocks, shock pads, whatever) reduces the minimum by 1; a recoil increasing shape (hold-outs, for example) increase it by 1.
Gas Vents just get abstracted out because they are no longer necessary to allow people to fire bursts of automatic weaponry.
Drones have an "effective strength" equal to their Body. If they suffer recoil penalties, they fall over.
The Strength minimum of a weapon is the base damage minus 2. So it's 2 for a light pistol, 4 for an assault rifle (Flechette modifiers obviously don't apply).

Why yes, yes I do. Thanks Frank!

I like that your version gives people with 1 STR a rules-expressed reason not to pack the Panther Cannon. (which has RC 1, though by RAW, recoil penalty only comes from bursts.)
Although gas-vent is no longer required for game balance, it's an interesting technology and I favor weapons with expensive extras getting slight advantages. The difference between low-end and tricked-out gear is a part of SR that appeals to me.
For games with extra detail, barrel length could be a factor in STR mod, and a bipod offsets that factor specifically. Firing from prone should get benefits even without bipod.
Extra-long barrels could give a penalty for a close-quarters fight; if a target 3 meters away does a sidestep and moves a meter (abstracted as REA + Dodge), it should be easier to track that motion with a pistol or SMG than with a sniper rifle. The "Rainbow 6" FPS represents this as point-of-aim lag. KZT, any perspective on that factor? I understand why the rules have one mechanic for all ranged combat, but Ranger Arms SM4 should not mix well with Chow Yun Fat style gunplay.

Posted by: Tarantula Jan 5 2008, 09:43 PM

I do like the STR based recoil idea, however its prone to exploit by extremely high individuals. If full auto is just REQ+3, then whats to stop an ambidextrous strong troll firing 2 full auto guns at no penalty (besides splitting his dice pool)?

What would the strength minimum be for something like mossberg shotgun? 3? 4? 5? even putting it at 6 (meaning full auto requiring 9) wouldn't do a whole lot to prevent a troll from packing two of them and going to town.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 5 2008, 09:51 PM

yeah so? O.o
's what trolls are THERE for . . you don't let the Troll Combat Twink do the Social or electronics stuff, but you let him go and make big holes into anything you point him at . .

in SR3 they got (close to) no penalty when using 2H weapons with one Hand.
And STR6 gave 1 point of Recoil Compensation, STR12 gave 2 points and . . either STR18 or STR 24 or something in between gave 3 Points of Recoil Compensation . . so yes, you COULD do the whole ambidexterous Troll with 2 LMG's . . but said Troll could and probably still can do little else . .

Posted by: Buster Jan 5 2008, 09:57 PM

QUOTE (Alex)

Every Christmas I ask Santa for one of those.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 5 2008, 10:02 PM

as i understand it . . those are quasi legal to own over there in america . . for about everyone . . as long as it is SEMI AUTO or SINGLE AUTO . . you can get it as a hunting rifle as opposed to a military weapon somehow . . of course the rifle in itself costs something like 10k or more US $ if i remember correctly . . and that is JUST the rifle . .

Posted by: Buster Jan 5 2008, 10:02 PM

QUOTE (Stahlseele)

I gotta go with Stahlseele on this. If you play a troll you want to play Predator not Pussywillow. A fully automatic assault rifle in each ham fist is a staple of action movies and TV shows.

Posted by: Karaden Jan 5 2008, 10:06 PM

QUOTE (Tarantula)

What is stopping someone doing that now? If they can get a weapon to have enough recoil compensation, there is nothing in the rules that mentions a penelty for firing a LMG with only one hand. Heck, they could even pull out two HMGs and start unloading.

I like the idea of str affecting recoil (and it is even mentioned in the book but apperently rules for it where left out.) But maybe instead of throwing out the current system compleatly, just have the minimum str, and then say each point of str above that counts as a point of RC. (may need tweeking, but you get the idea.)

Posted by: SirPentor Jan 5 2008, 10:10 PM

QUOTE (Ryu)

If you want to PUNCH through hardened armor / a spirits immunity, doing basic damage is the only thing of importance. High rate of fire does not apply.

Are you sure about this? My GM said that was true as well, but when we double-checked it appears that this is not the case.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 5 2008, 10:12 PM

as for why the PAC needs recoil compensation: if i remember correctly, you had to resist 9l stun damage minus impact armor when firing said weapon without bi/tripod or something like that. .
Edit: Modifiers to Damage from burst/Full Auto never came into consideration with hardened Armor . . is why you could just shake off a direct hit from a vindicator while wearing heavy security or military armor which counted as hardened . . because they had an ballaistics rating of 7 and the vindicator had a power niveau of 7 before the +15 for each bullet . . so vindicator with a powerniveau NOT GREATER THAN THE BALLISTICS RATING OF THE HARDENED ARMOR . . just kinda went poof withoutexex or something like that . .
Edit2: you had in fact a better chance of hurting someone with hardened security if you were using a heavy pistol, sports rifle, HMG or some AssaultRifles/SMG's . .

Posted by: Buster Jan 5 2008, 10:17 PM

QUOTE (SirPentor)

QUOTE (Ryu @ Jan 5 2008, 05:06 AM)

If you want to PUNCH through hardened armor / a spirits immunity, doing basic damage is the only thing of importance. High rate of fire does not apply.

Are you sure about this? My GM said that was true as well, but when we double-checked it appears that this is not the case.

Oh no not this argument again! Can someone post the links to the other 147 threads on this topic before we get a full blown derail?

Posted by: Jaid Jan 5 2008, 10:21 PM

QUOTE (SirPentor)

QUOTE (Ryu @ Jan 5 2008, 05:06 AM)

If you want to PUNCH through hardened armor / a spirits immunity, doing basic damage is the only thing of importance. High rate of fire does not apply.

Are you sure about this? My GM said that was true as well, but when we double-checked it appears that this is not the case.

QUOTE (SR4 @ page 142-143)

Narrow bursts are intended to infl ict a target with maximum damage. Narrow bursts increase the attackâ€™s DV by +2. Note that this DV modifi er does not apply when comparing the DV to the armor rating.

QUOTE (SR4 @ page 148)

If the modifi ed DV of an attack causing Physical damage does not exceed the AP-modifi ed armor rating, then the attack will cause Stun damage instead.

QUOTE (SR4 @ page 288)

Hardened Armor is even tougher than normal armor. If the modifi ed Damage Value of an attack does not exceed the Armor rating (modifi ed by Armor Penetration), then it bounces harmlessly off the critter...

QUOTE (SR4 @ page 288)

A critter with Immunity has an enhanced resistance to a certain type of attack or affl iction. Th e critter gains an â€œArmor ratingâ€? equal to twice its Magic against that damage. Th is Immunity Armor is treated as â€œhardenedâ€? protection

yes, as a matter of fact, we are sure.

Posted by: SirPentor Jan 5 2008, 11:33 PM

Thank you! We have been playing wrong.

Posted by: Crusher Bob Jan 6 2008, 05:12 AM

QUOTE (FrankTrollman)

At least for single shots, the bipod increase your maximum effective range.

Here's some rough math:

Assume I'm using a rifle capable of 1 MOA accuracy.
I want to hit targets in the torso, meaning that I mark maximum effective range as the range that the rifle will put a bullet in a 12 inch circle.
Bolted to a table, the max effective range of the rifle is ~1200 yards.
But, in the field, that rifle won't be bolted to a table, I'll be holding it shooting at people.

From the standing, unsupported position, I contribute 2 MOA of inaccuracy to the rifle.
This means that my maximum effective range is only 400 yards.

From the prone, unsupported position I only contribute 1MOA of inaccuracy to the rifle, so my effective range increases to 600 yards.

From the prone, supported position (using the bipod) I contribute .5 MOA of inaccuracy to the rifle. This means my maximum effective range is 800 yards.

Of course, this assumes that there is no wind.

Its a question of who steady I can hold the rifle, not how strong I am. From the standing, unsupported position, I have to worry about how much my whole body twitches, for stuff like heart beat, digestion, muscle fatigue, breathing, and so on. Being stronger doesn't really help.

Posted by: Karaden Jan 6 2008, 05:22 AM

QUOTE (Crusher Bob)

Bolted to a table, the max effective range of the rifle is ~1200 yards.

Now I have this great image of runners carrying tables around with them so they can bolt down their weapons for maximum accuracy.

Posted by: kzt Jan 6 2008, 06:04 AM

QUOTE (Crusher Bob)

From the standing, unsupported position, I have to worry about how much my whole body twitches, for stuff like heart beat, digestion, muscle fatigue, breathing, and so on. Being stronger doesn't really help.

I was trying to shoot a damn AR in a gusty 20-30 mph wind last week. I couldn't keep the sights on target (at 200 meters) trying to fight the wind gusts off-hand, I had to get my elbows on a shooting table.

Then it was easy to hit the steel. Someday I keep planning to get a decent rifle....

Posted by: Ryu Jan 6 2008, 12:52 PM

Edit: Beaten by Jaid, did not notice before. Yes, we are sure.

Posted by: Buster Jan 6 2008, 04:28 PM

QUOTE (Karaden)

QUOTE (Crusher Bob @ Jan 6 2008, 12:12 AM)

Bolted to a table, the max effective range of the rifle is ~1200 yards.

Now I have this great image of runners carrying tables around with them so they can bolt down their weapons for maximum accuracy.

No self-respecting power gamer leaves his hideout without a top of the line 400 kilo mahogany rifle-bolting table!

Posted by: Tarantula Jan 6 2008, 05:11 PM

QUOTE (Karaden)

QUOTE (Tarantula @ Jan 5 2008, 04:43 PM)

No, he can't. Pg 141, You can use two pistols or SMGs, thats it. (Which interestingly enough makes it so you can't use a taser and something else).

Posted by: Karaden Jan 6 2008, 06:02 PM

Don't tasers fall under the pistol catagory? They do after all use the pistol skill.

Posted by: kzt Jan 6 2008, 08:06 PM

QUOTE (Riley37)

For games with extra detail, barrel length could be a factor in STR mod, and a bipod offsets that factor specifically. Firing from prone should get benefits even without bipod.
Extra-long barrels could give a penalty for a close-quarters fight; if a target 3 meters away does a sidestep and moves a meter (abstracted as REA + Dodge), it should be easier to track that motion with a pistol or SMG than with a sniper rifle. The "Rainbow 6" FPS represents this as point-of-aim lag. KZT, any perspective on that factor? I understand why the rules have one mechanic for all ranged combat, but Ranger Arms SM4 should not mix well with Chow Yun Fat style gunplay.

I'm not sure that's the case, but yeah, long barreled guns are a pain indoors. One of the key things you don't want to do it to telegraph your presence around the corner before you can shoot into the room. Sticking your 26" sniper rifle barrel into the doorway at chest height tells someone inside the door that if they hose down the doorway they will probably get you.

And if they are waiting just inside they can grab the barrel and start doing bad things to you.

With shotguns we used the indoor ready, which had the muzzle pointing just outside and in front of your non-shooting side toes. This means you have a pretty long way to raise the muzzle. However, shooting someone in the shins with a 12 gauge at 2 feet is still going to get their attention.

In terms of turning I'm not sure it's slower to turn with a rifle than a pistol. You are turning your hips, which turns at the same rate either way, right?

Posted by: Ryu Jan 6 2008, 08:45 PM

Ah, one could easily put that in the game with a reaction penalty for indoor long-arm users for reaction tests on entering a room. I think my players will like that, it might give SMGs a better position vs. ARs.

Posted by: Glyph Jan 6 2008, 11:06 PM

QUOTE (Ryu)

The trouble with making such a general rule for a category of weapons is that it won't always make sense. I look at the picture of the HK227X, with its traditional rifle design, and compare it to the compact design of the Ares Alpha with its bull-pup configuration, and the latter is the one that looks like it would be easier to use in close quarters. Heck, the Mossberg AM-CMDT is designed for house-to-house combat.

Posted by: Ryu Jan 6 2008, 11:18 PM

QUOTE (Glyph)

QUOTE (Ryu)

Yes, that is likely true. Without being an expert, IÂ´d say that any rule on the abstraction level of SR4 is likely to be false on many occasions. So if a justification for weapon classes with different qualities exists (here: Range vs. indoor use), even the two gun nuts in my group will have fun by choosing the "right" weapon for the job.

Posted by: Tarantula Jan 7 2008, 06:18 PM

QUOTE (Karaden)

Don't tasers fall under the pistol catagory? They do after all use the pistol skill.

I was going by the weapon categories in the back of the book, where tasers have their own heading before the pistols.

Posted by: Shrike30 Jan 7 2008, 06:29 PM

QUOTE (Glyph)

Heck, the Mossberg AM-CMDT is designed for house-to-house combat.

There's various ways to interpret "designed for house-to-house combat." I generally interpret it as meaning the weapon should be rugged, reliable, able to hit quickly and hard, able to reload quickly and easily, not so large that it gets hung up on corners (note the folding stock), and if you have to bash someone in the head with it, it won't break.

That doesn't mean that a submachinegun wouldn't be smaller.

Posted by: Riley37 Jan 7 2008, 06:31 PM

QUOTE (kzt)

With shotguns we used the indoor ready, which had the muzzle pointing just outside and in front of your non-shooting side toes.

In terms of turning I'm not sure it's slower to turn with a rifle than a pistol. You are turning your hips, which turns at the same rate either way, right?

Is the indoor ready for shotgun based on shooting with stock against shoulder, or tucked between elbow and hip?

I'm speaking with no close quarters training, have only shot from fixed position at fixed targets, so take this with grain of salt. I imagine that if I walked into a room scanning for hostiles, I'd prefer my odds of getting on target quickly if I were pointing a handgun, or SMG at waist level with shoulder sling, rather than properly aiming a sniper rifle with stock on shoulder and looking through the sights (let alone the scope). I can imagine the inertia of the long barrel actually slowing, slightly, how fast I could turn. There are people who believe that within 5 meters, don't bother with the sights, just point and shoot.

Does close quarters training assume that you know your friendlies, and everyone else is hostile? Shadowrun includes situations in which you're already at conversational range with someone, and then the deal goes south, or the Humanis guards realize that you're a disguised elf, or whatever, and suddenly a gunfight starts. Sometimes it's gun against katana, with enough armor that the first hit doesn't necessarily end the fight. In the highly unlikely and undesirable position that I had a gun and were trying to kill an armored swordsman before he stabbed or slashed me to death, I can't imagine maintaining a firing range stance. If I did, then it seems inaccurate for a game to represent me as getting REA+Dodge to avoid the katana; I'd be as easy to hit as a mannequin. No?

Posted by: kzt Jan 7 2008, 08:05 PM

You have the butt of the shotgun in the shoulder pocket.

Sniper rifles have no sights, just a scope. Ok, there are versions that have a bastardized setup where you supposedly have iron sights, but I'm told they suck and screw up your ability to use the scope. The last time I heard anyone doing reaction drills with a sniper rifle it was using the scope turrets as really crude sights, and he found it easy to miss at 20 feet. Plus 15 pound sniper rifles don't make that fun. SR ignores this , but long range sniper rifles are typically quite heavy for stability.

At 3 meters with a pistol I can shoot based on pointing and usually hit. I can often hit the head target on an ipsc target.. You can shoot from retention with a pistol and likely hit. At 5 meters it's not so likely. You go to "flash sight pictures" and such and shoot hammers. At about 10 meters few people can shoot hammers successfully and you go to controlled pairs, where you reacquire the sight picture between shots.

It's easier to shoot with a rifle or shotgun fast than a pistol. It points better, you have a better idea of how it's lined up, etc. Doing head shots with a carbine is easy at 25 meters, it's not with a pistol. Unless you are shooting from retention the pistol is at arms length in front of you, so a 14.5" carbine would add 6 inches or so of barrel in front of that instead of the 3 inches of a Glock? A shotgun maybe a foot, a sniper rifle two feet?

CQB is typically fighting inside buildings and modern version require that you identify hostiles, bystanders and friendlies in most cases. Otherwise you end up killing hte wrong people. Once the you know the room is full of bad guys it sucks to be a bystander in the room, as they are likely to killed. Never gotten formal training on this, it's what SWAT teams and infantry do.

For really close range stuff it's ugly. I've been taught that you should typically go HtH if you are within arms reach and someone goes for a weapon. They have one or two hands occupied, you don't, so hurt them a lot right now. Though there are also some very quick draw and shoot from retention drills while you strike at their face with your other arm to keep them from getting the weapon out. Then you shoot them a lot really fast.

Basically it's really hard to miss with a pistol at 3 feet, so you really want to stop them from shooting at you. Shootouts in bathrooms rarely end well.

Similarly, you don't want to try to go for a gun when someone leaps at you from 5 feet with a knife (or their bare hands). If you don't have one in your hands you'll be sliced to ribbons (beaten unconscious) by the time you get it out.

Posted by: Karaden Jan 7 2008, 08:18 PM

Well, most of the discusion here has goten beyond me as I don't regularly fire weapons at a range or anything like that, but I can make this small addition.

QUOTE (Riley37)

I can imagine the inertia of the long barrel actually slowing, slightly, how fast I could turn.

Yeah, the inerita of a long barrel weapon is going to be small that it may reduce the time it take you to turn by... oh an entire milisecond maybe? Likely not even that much, you would just exert a minimal amout of extra force to compensate for the inerita. We are after all talking about the inertia of a few pound object, one which I might add, we have a pivot point on near our body. We arn't talking about the inertia of a car here. It is like saying the gravity field of a bowling ball is a significant factor in knocking down all the pins.

All that aside however I think the discussion is quickly getting very far away from the subect of the OP.