Printable Version of Topic

Click here to view this topic in its original format

Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ And early no less!

Posted by: Ophis Jan 5 2008, 10:18 AM

Yesterday i popped into my FLGS to ask the guy who runs it to make sure he gets a Corp Enclaves for me. He turned rummagged through a box and handed me a copy. GLEE!

I haven't had a proper read of it yet but what I've scanned is pretty interesting, and the hints in the "Sign on screen" are to me even more so. I suspect today will be mostly reading it more thoroughly.

Posted by: Demonseed Elite Jan 5 2008, 02:03 PM

Good to hear it is hitting shelves. I was curious when it would appear in stores. I'm interested in hearing what you think of it when you've read through it.

Posted by: Ophis Jan 5 2008, 03:54 PM

Still not fully read through but one thing of wonder leapt out at me.

THE MAPS HAVE SCALED.

I wan't to kiss whoever decided to do this, then apologise and buy them lots of drinks.

Posted by: Ophis Jan 6 2008, 02:10 AM

Okay most of the way through LA.

Ploghing through the excellent info on Horizon (deeper than i'd expect, just shy of a corp orate download write up). They seem worrying benevolent, which is good, I have to worry about who is running them, Harlequin, Bugs, Hestaby or someone else entirely are the ideas that hit me. I am also happy to see the idea of memes coming up (though not as nasty as I'd hope, maybe as a Matrix based real world attack they'd work, but thats not what they've done.) The Dawkins Group maybe my favorite reference in SR ever. This section makes the book useful for any SR game anywhere in the world.

I also like the fact that the discussion of "the Fall", the much mal... ahem discussed sinking which seems to have a level of reference to the reseanable points made by the "hey that's insane!" camp right here on DS.

Posted by: Grinder Jan 6 2008, 10:53 AM

Yep, ordered my copy yesterday too.

Posted by: BookWyrm Jan 6 2008, 07:27 PM

I'm planning to call the Strat on that Wednesday to find out if Enclaves is in. Then the next day I'll make an early trip into NYC, pick them up & meet my GF for lunch. Then a quick train ride back to my home station to head to work.

Posted by: Grinder Jan 10 2008, 11:45 AM

Just fished the book ouf of the mail and skimmed through it. Again, no index... And the art in the Los Angeles-chapter is not the best, carefully spoken. But overall, the book made a good first impression, can't wait to read through it

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jan 10 2008, 05:37 PM

QUOTE (Ophis)

Still not fully read through but one thing of wonder leapt out at me.

THE MAPS HAVE SCALED.

I want to kiss whoever decided to do this, then apologise and buy them lots of drinks.

...hot damn! That has been one of my real sore points with previous location source material, particularly SoE & SoA. For my RiS campaign ended up buying Euro road maps (& these are not cheap) so that I could give the players correct travel distances and times to get from one place to the another. Heck, even had to go on EBay to get a decent map of Zagreb.

Posted by: Redjack Jan 10 2008, 07:45 PM

Got my copy yesterday... Not really had a chance to dive into it yet....

Posted by: JonathanC Jan 10 2008, 07:54 PM

How does this compare to Runner Havens? I was a little disappointed with that book, especially the section on Seattle. Could we, at some point, get a Seattle book that DOESN'T assume that we have all of the other Seattle books going back to 1st edition?

Posted by: martindv Jan 10 2008, 08:54 PM

QUOTE (JonathanC)

Could we, at some point, get a Seattle book that DOESN'T assume that we have all of the other Seattle books going back to 1st edition?

No.

Posted by: JonathanC Jan 10 2008, 08:56 PM

QUOTE (martindv)

QUOTE (JonathanC)

Could we, at some point, get a Seattle book that DOESN'T assume that we have all of the other Seattle books going back to 1st edition?

No.

Posted by: Penta Jan 11 2008, 01:02 AM

Just got it today USPS priority from BattleCorps. Mmm, new book smell.

Posted by: BookWyrm Jan 11 2008, 04:11 AM

Got mine at the Strat today.

Posted by: bofh Jan 11 2008, 04:22 AM

I was going to drop by the FLGS on my way to Wednesday's Shadowrun 3rd session but the GM dropped out (he's an infusion specialist and got double booked).

So I had a couple of guys drop by and we played Car Wars instead. I offered 4th edition but only two guys dropped by.

I'm looking forward to picking it up and the new Paranoia book tomorrow or Saturday though.

Carl

Posted by: Synner Jan 11 2008, 01:49 PM

QUOTE (Ophis)

Ploghing through the excellent info on Horizon (deeper than i'd expect, just shy of a corp orate download write up). They seem worrying benevolent, which is good, I have to worry about who is running them, Harlequin, Bugs, Hestaby or someone else entirely are the ideas that hit me. I am also happy to see the idea of memes coming up (though not as nasty as I'd hope, maybe as a Matrix based real world attack they'd work, but thats not what they've done.) The Dawkins Group maybe my favorite reference in SR ever. This section makes the book useful for any SR game anywhere in the world.

You will note that though there's some history to Horizon and some details on the big names the focus is definitely on the group's local infrastructure. For the global picture and more secrets you'll have to wait for the next corp guidebook...

QUOTE

I also like the fact that the discussion of "the Fall", the much mal... ahem discussed sinking which seems to have a level of reference to the reseanable points made by the "hey that's insane!" camp right here on DS.

Contrary to popular opinion we do listen to what the fans are saying - we might not agree but we do listen. In this particular case though, "the Fall" as depicted in Corporate Enclaves was pretty much mapped out this way since SR4 came out, though Jay Levine certainly enhanced and filled out the original concept with his contribution in Street Magic.

Posted by: kzt Jan 12 2008, 06:47 AM

Ok, so I buy the book and flip it open at random, to page 94.

So what do I immediately notice?

Not a single person involved in the damn book knows anything about space and not a single person cares enough to do any trivial research.

Geosynchronous orbit is a LONG way up. Like 36,000 km. The earths atmosphere only goes up, using the most generous of measurements, to 10,000 km. Things put in geosynchronous can't fall out of orbit, you need as much power to get something out of geosynchronous as you had to use to put it up there. You can drift slowly over a period of many years, but the "Out of orbit, where they burned" is just another insanity because, again, nobody cares enough to even do a little thought.

Solar sails are not the same as solar power panels, any more than a sail and a windmill are the same.

Japan is not on the equator. Tokyo is at 40 degrees north. Hence you can't put a sat in Geo OVER Neo-Tokyo. If you did put it at the equator you wouldn't be able to see the north sides of buildings or anything in the shadow formed by this. Ignoring the insanity of trying to focus on something 36,000 miles away, this makes it pretty useless as a surveillance platform.

That was 1/2 of one page. This makes me really anxious to look at the rest of the book. . . .

But it does have a cool cover, I'll give it that.

Posted by: Synner Jan 12 2008, 09:55 AM

QUOTE (kzt @ Jan 12 2008, 06:47 AM)

Seriously? Let's look at these thought out and space knowledgeable critiques.

QUOTE

Geosynchronous orbit is a LONG way up. Like 36,000 km. The earths atmosphere only goes up, using the most generous of measurements, to 10,000 km. Things put in geosynchronous can't fall out of orbit, you need as much power to get something out of geosynchronous as you had to use to put it up there. You can drift slowly over a period of many years, but the "Out of orbit, where they burned" is just another insanity because, again, nobody cares enough to even do a little thought.

Perhaps you should read System Failure for the context and circumstances in which satellites were forced "out of orbit, where they burned" on the way down (or to save you time: during the Crash 2.0 the Second Virus/Jormungand purposefully forced satellites and a few stations to fire directional thrusters to push them out of orbit and down to Earth).

QUOTE

Solar sails are not the same as solar power panels, any more than a sail and a windmill are the same.

Solar sails (as detailed in previous Shadowrun books and IRL) can be used as energy collection devices as easily as a propulsion system (in fact they're more efficient as the former than the latter) - though a lot of popular sci-fi overlooks the former. Many of the solar powersat projects on the drawing board do in fact refer to their solar panels as sails since they are used to both collect energy and make orbital corrections.

The solar sails described in Corp Enclaves are identified as such because they are made from energy-collecting nanotech fabric, stretch for a couple of klicks, and also function as light sails allowing for orbital course corrections without additional energy sources.

QUOTE

Japan is not on the equator. Tokyo is at 40 degrees north. Hence you can't put a sat in Geo OVER Neo-Tokyo. If you did put it at the equator you wouldn't be able to see the north sides of buildings or anything in the shadow formed by this. Ignoring the insanity of trying to focus on something 36,000 miles away, this makes it pretty useless as a surveillance platform.

I'm pretty sure you're mistaken on this one too, you're probably confusing "geosynchronious" with "geostationary".

While equatorial orbit is a circular (read: perfect) geosynchronious (and possibly geostationary) orbit, it is not the only geosynchronious orbit possible (for instance: the Tundra Elliptical Orbit).

To borrow a definition "a geosynchronous orbit is an orbit around the Earth with an orbital period matching the Earth's sidereal rotation period. This synchronization means that for an observer at a fixed location on Earth, a satellite in a geosynchronous orbit returns to exactly the same place in the sky at exactly the same time each day" (Wikipedia) and is not restricted to an equatorial orbit ). In practice pretty much any elliptical orbit can be geosynchronious and be placed anywhere over the Earth - say like over Neo-Tokyo.

I believe you are confusing "geosynchronious" and "geostationary," since the satellite is to function as a surveillance platform. However, given that even an artificial geostationary orbit can be accomplished off the equator through constant corrections, the only thing really stopping us from doing so these days is the power requirements. Given that this satellite's solar sails allow for the constant corrections necessary to maintain its otherwise eccentric orbit over Neo-Tokyo it is both geosynchronious and geostationary.

As for the satellites value as a surveillance platform, there is no reason why it would be limited to optical observation instead of using a combination array of multiple sensors that make the distances involved far less of a barrier.

QUOTE

That was 1/2 of one page. This makes me really anxious to look at the rest of the book. . . .

Maybe, in hindsight, you should be less anxious?

Posted by: Demonseed Elite Jan 12 2008, 04:19 PM

I didn't write that section, but Peter's right about being careful not to confuse "geosynchronous" with "geostationary." All geostationary orbits are geosynchronous, but not all geosynchronous orbits are geostationary.

kzt is correct about a geostationary orbit. But it's likely that Amenhoakari is on a geosynchronous orbit with a non-zero inclination. Which means it isn't always over Neo-Tokyo, but does ensure a window of a time where it is. From a fixed point on the ground, the satellite would appear to move north and south because of the non-zero inclination. They could even give it an eccentric orbit that would keep it circling over the northern hemisphere more than the southern hemisphere, keeping Japan within its sights more often.

Also, it's true that the high-resolution photography on the satellite has a limited use, in that you can't see a target from every possible angle (though a non-zero inclination and eccentricity allow for different angles). But that's just one sensor option on Amenhoakari.

And all in all, it's a rather minor point to get uppity about.

Posted by: Ancient History Jan 12 2008, 04:40 PM

I was the one who wrote Amenhoakari up; and the guys have hit most of the major points. Believe it or not I did crack open a couple books to make sure I wasn't pulling things completely out of my ass. I made damn sure not to use geostationary precisely because Neo-Tokyo isn't an equatorial city.

Posted by: Grinder Jan 12 2008, 05:56 PM

I'm halfway through the LA-chapter and like what I read so far - even though I'd love to hear Frank's opinion about the explanation for the sinking of LA given in CE.

But I don't like what I see - most of the illustrations are sub-par and much worse then the standard I have for a RPG sourcebook. Where are the works of Klaus Scherwinski, Marko Djurdjevic and all the other great artsts?

Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 12 2008, 06:43 PM

QUOTE (Ancient History)

instead of only the RL Names of the Authors your Aliases should come in too.
That would probably seriously calm down those things because most people on dumpshock know you guys and thus know that if your name is used then it's probably correct . . and if not, they know who to ask if they are not certain and can get an actual intent from you guys . .

Posted by: kzt Jan 12 2008, 06:47 PM

So a fleet of many tens of thousands of ton SPS are supposed to reenter because of the station keeping engines? That's like using a rowboat to tow an aircraft carrier from NY to London and would take about as much time. You'd think someone would have noticed that all the station keeping motors were performing an uncommanded burn after the first few weeks, before you get a over few m/sec delta V. You have to accelerate the huge tens of thousands of ton object by several km/sec to get it to reenter. With the station keeping engines. In a few hours. Right....

If it's not "above neo-Tokyo" why does it say it is? A sat that orbits using a Molniya or Tundra orbit actually is more above the Yakutia Republic than Tokyo, which again means that you have a significant inclination and now you can't see the south side of buildings except for a little while each day when it's moving pretty fast along it's ground track. Not to mention that you have hours a day (the same hours, every day) when it will be over Australia or the open ocean.

To me it's another "And LA sinks under the waves!!!" stupid throwaway line that makes anyone who has a vague clue stop reading the book and go "what the hell, this is stupid!"

Why bother writing crap that yanks people right out of the book?

Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 12 2008, 06:51 PM

QUOTE

And LA sinks under the waves!!!

wait what? where? when? why? how?
i seem to have totally missed that . .

Posted by: Ancient History Jan 12 2008, 07:19 PM

QUOTE (kzt)

So a fleet of many tens of thousands of ton SPS are supposed to reenter because of the station keeping engines?

Okay, let's revisit a basic concept here: the same people don't write everything. I, for example, didn't write the bit in SR1 where Japan fields a fleet of solar sats to meet its power needs, nor the bit in System Failure where the terrorist group Winternight organized hundreds of sats to fall out of their orbits as best they can. Obviously they weren't completely successful, for many reasons-including the ones you pointed out.

See, SR freelancers have to adapt what they write to the background as best as they can, and we offer up explanations when necessary and prudent-and, most important of all, when we have wordcount. I'm sorry if we didn't go into full detail on everything for you, but there are limitations involved.

QUOTE

If it's not "above neo-Tokyo" why does it say it is? [...] Not to mention that you have hours a day (the same hours, every day) when it will be over Australia or the open ocean.

Popular conception more than anything. Most people don't really grasp the physics and logistics of satellites, they just wonder why their GPS/phone isn't working right now.

QUOTE

Why bother writing crap that yanks people right out of the book?

'cause for most people, it does not. Sad to say you're in the minority friend, but the number of people complaining about geosynchronous sats is about on par with, say, people complaining about the square-cube law with respect to critter sizes, and far less than people complaining about the nomenclature of a new Awakened virus as regards to current naming standards for viruses. Everybody has their specialty, or eccentric hobby, or field of truly arcane knowledge where they think they know best (and, in some cases, may well indeed know best). I know it can be frustrating at times, but it's like getting an unexpected result in the lab: if you accept that it happened, the question to ask is why.

Posted by: Synner Jan 12 2008, 08:19 PM

QUOTE (Ancient History)

and far less than people complaining about the nomenclature of a new Awakened virus as regards to current naming standards for viruses.

If people only knew how brilliant that line is.

My hat is off to you, sir.

Posted by: Synner Jan 12 2008, 08:28 PM

QUOTE (kzt @ Jan 12 2008, 06:47 PM)

Again, your gripe is with System Failure not specific to Corporate Enclaves.

For the record, firstly in SF it was mainly small and low-orbiting satelites that made forced reentry during the day of the Crash. Whatever big stuff came down did so later - and even then it was because the crew and computers systems were dead (as depicted in one fiction segment). Second, you are mistakenly assuming orbital engines powered by contemporary systems when there fusion reactors and solar sails have been available for years - they're not that too far advanced but they are a lot better than today. Third and finally, you're disregarding artistic license, for all the grief I've had for the stuff in my section of System Failure the "rain of stars" hasn't been one of them.

QUOTE

If it's not "above neo-Tokyo" why does it say it is? A sat that orbits using a Molniya or Tundra orbit actually is more above the Yakutia Republic than Tokyo, which again means that you have a significant inclination and now you can't see the south side of buildings except for a little while each day when it's moving pretty fast along it's ground track. Not to mention that you have hours a day (the same hours, every day) when it will be over Australia or the open ocean.

Read the entry in context, as Ancient has explained its intended for the uninitiated and posted by a non-specialist.

Furthermore, as all the authors (and the editor) have explained it was put in layman's terms since its actual position is pretty irrelevant as long as it's looking down on Tokyo with a wide array of sensors. Opticals might not look through buildings but various types of radar, thermal imaging, radio scanning, etc and a number of other systems do.

Posted by: Eugene Jan 12 2008, 10:03 PM

QUOTE (Grinder)

But I don't like what I see - most of the illustrations are sub-par and much worse then the standard I have for a RPG sourcebook. Where are the works of Klaus Scherwinski, Marko Djurdjevic and all the other great artsts?

I myself like the art throughout the book (except for the cover, which makes me in the minority, I guess). The gangbangers just inside the front cover are great, and the saxophonist and the family-in-a-shack in the LA section are quite evocative, IMHO. The only real pieces that don't do much for me are the building landscapes in the "Company Towns" chapter and one artist's insistence for transposing English words and phrases into Greek characters (p.129). The art's better than many pieces in the Core and in Augmentation. de gustantibus non disputandum est, I suppose!

Posted by: Eugene Jan 12 2008, 10:09 PM

I'm most of the way through the LA chapter, and it's great fun. Better than Hong Kong, maybe, though I need to think about it some more. Once you get over the sillyness of LA sinking/flooding, the chapter's got lots of great ideas about what that -means- in terms of runs. The idea of your runs being more public in a lot of ways will certainly make for a very different sort of game if that's your homebase. Plus there's a lot of mileage you can get out of the Horizon/Aztechnology rivalry.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 12 2008, 10:15 PM

QUOTE

Once you get over the sillyness of LA sinking/flooding

strike two for the HUH?-Squad . .

Posted by: martindv Jan 12 2008, 11:46 PM

QUOTE (Grinder @ Jan 12 2008, 12:56 PM)

Where are the works of Klaus Scherwinski, Marko Djurdjevic and all the other great artsts?

Marko (and his wife) does cover art and more recently interiors for Marvel Comics.

His first(?) variant cover for Thunderbolts is actually similar in design to Steve Prescott's one-page image in Dragons of the Sixth World of the Draco Foundation board of directors.

Posted by: martindv Jan 12 2008, 11:51 PM

QUOTE (Stahlseele)

QUOTE

Once you get over the sillyness of LA sinking/flooding

strike two for the HUH?-Squad . .

I blame The M.A.N. from S.H.A.D.O.W. and his secret underground military experiments on lizard people and giant scorpions.

Posted by: Fortune Jan 13 2008, 12:12 AM

QUOTE (Stahlseele)

strike two for the HUH?-Squad . .

You might not have read System Failure, where it is described in (a little) more detail, but there is some data on this very subject right in the core SR4 rule book, so it isn't some kind of super big secret.

QUOTE (SR4 pg. 34)

CalFree finally saw the last of Saito, but not the last of its woes. In early 2069, a pair of major earthquakes coming from the San Andreas Fault line and the San Pedro Shelf caused widespread flooding and destruction, killing tens of thousands. Much of Southern California and the Central Valley found themselves dropped below sea level and were inundated with tidal waves. While San Francisco and the Bay Area were mostly spared, waters have flooded most of the Central Valley and Los Angeles (which, if nothing else, had at least fortified their sea walls in the more affluent corporate areas decades ago). They say that the floodwaters may recede after a year or two, but we’ll see. Meanwhile if you want to visit, you’ll either have to fly or learn to swim.

There are also over a dozen threads right here on Dumpshock discussing the matter in various stages of outrage.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 13 2008, 12:17 AM

*shrugs*
I may not like SR4, but i love fluff-stuff so i actually read both of those books.
but that kinda totally evaded my attention somehow O.o
so they made it a second Hamburg then? *g*

Posted by: BookWyrm Jan 13 2008, 12:19 AM

OK, one slightly stupid question. The shaded areas on the map on p.12 of Corp. Enclaves, those areas are flooded?

Posted by: Fortune Jan 13 2008, 12:20 AM

System Failure is technically an SR3 release.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 13 2008, 12:21 AM

oh boy do I know that it is . . i just can't seem to convince anybody else to think like that around my parts of Players somehow <.< . .

Posted by: Fortune Jan 13 2008, 12:27 AM

QUOTE (Stahlseele)

I may not like SR4, but i love fluff-stuff ...

The 'fluff stuff' is what separates Shadowrun (regardless of edition) from all the rest.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 13 2008, 12:38 AM

i know ^^
i'm a regular for example at Uncle Ancients pages and i am more or less the one all of the others come to when they have questions regarding some part of the world that has nothing to do with the actual rules *g*
But still, i found the fluff for the 2nd crash and the 2nd crash in itself at best sub-optimal <.< . .

Posted by: Tiger Eyes Jan 13 2008, 01:09 AM

QUOTE (BookWyrm)

OK, one slightly stupid question. The shaded areas on the map on p.12 of Corp. Enclaves, those areas are flooded?

The shaded areas on pg 12's map are urban areas, which show the sprawl of the cities. You'll notice the shading around Las Vegas and Phoenix, too, which are not flooded.

Posted by: martindv Jan 13 2008, 06:55 AM

There is no urban area in Los Angeles. Just sprawl and more sprawl, with a couple of denser cores around Bunker Hill and Century City.

Posted by: BookWyrm Jan 13 2008, 03:35 PM

Thanks, Tiger Eyes & martindv.

Posted by: martindv Jan 13 2008, 06:25 PM

Well, don't thank me just yet. I don't have Corp Enclaves yet, so as far as I know one or both of those no longer exists.

Posted by: Synner Jan 13 2008, 06:37 PM

The grey areas in all the zoomed out maps in Corp Enclaves depict the spread of the recognized limits of the urban sprawl. The flooded areas of LA (mainly LA Central and along the coastline) are shown on the map on p.22.