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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Illusions

Posted by: Riley37 Jan 5 2008, 09:55 PM

If you know the Phantasm spell, can you use it to do the function of an Entertainment spell?
(if Mage A casts Entertain, and Mage B observes, can B cast a Phantasm of what she saw?)

How about taking Artisan: Phantasms, or Artisan: Entertainment, to represent that not only have you learned to cast the spell, but you also are practiced in creating artistically interesting effects with it? How about Artisan: Patter to hold an audience's attention? (Also handy for nonmages using Palming for stage magic, when it's time to misdirect audience attention.)

Similarly, would a mage who has the Mask spell and also the Disguise skill, create even better Masks for impersonation, than a mage who only has the Mask spell and hasn't (yet) studied the fine points of duplicating a face?

A mage with Mask can give herself a new appearance. But a mage who Masks herself as an minotaur, who has never seen an minotaur, will likely create an imperfect Mask; for example, perhaps the mage is ignorant of the particular way that minotaur horns curve, and thus the Mask has inaccurately curved horns... and anyone who knows minotaurs may notice the discrepancy. Same for a Phantasm of a minotaur. Now, if the mage cast Mask at high Force, and rolled max hits, then the Mask or Phantasm will look very convincingly like a unique, alternate-horn minotaur, exactly as the mage conceived, but observers may still become curious, and are likely to pay more attention, and thus more strongly test the illusion. Likewise, if the mage Masks herself as a merrow while in Arizona, then even if the Mask is both powerfully cast and realistic, any sea creature in an inland desert may receive extra attention, and observers may get a Perception bonus for doing a "second take" to examine in detail. This also applies to behavior, eg an illusory ork straining to lift a 25-kilogram object, or speaking as if tuskless. An illusion of a meek, deferential member of the Halloweener gang, or a Tir Prince walking with the body language of a sprawl hipster, or a Zen monk eating steak, will stand out like a sore thumb. Knowlege skills should help a mage avoid these incongruities. If the mage creates an illusion that's outside "common knowlege", a knowlege skill success enables the mage to avoid inadvertent inconsistencies, and net hits may increase the plausibility of the illusion at GM's discretion. Etiquette skill might help the mage realize that observers are becoming suspicious, and figure out how to allay those suspicions.

Posted by: JBlades Jan 6 2008, 01:46 AM

This is a great idea. Do you have a house system that you're using for it, mechanically? I'd be interested to see it. Perhaps let them make a Disquise roll, and the successes add dice to the casting roll for the Mask in your example above? Probably cap it at 3, and let glitches take dice away, too, to keep it under control?

Posted by: Dashifen Jan 7 2008, 12:52 AM

QUOTE (Riley37)

If you know the Phantasm spell, can you use it to do the function of an Entertainment spell? (if Mage A casts Entertain, and Mage B observes, can B cast a Phantasm of what she saw?)

Sure. Entertainment is really just a Phantasm spell that only works on the voluntary.

QUOTE

How about taking Artisan: Phantasms, or Artisan: Entertainment, to represent that not only have you learned to cast the spell, but you also are practiced in creating artistically interesting effects with it? How about Artisan: Patter to hold an audience's attention? (Also handy for nonmages using Palming for stage magic, when it's time to misdirect audience attention.)

I would also allow this, perhaps adding 1/2 the hits on the Artisan roll to the hits of the spellcasting for realizing that the illusion is fake.

QUOTE

Similarly, would a mage who has the Mask spell and also the Disguise skill, create even better Masks for impersonation, than a mage who only has the Mask spell and hasn't (yet) studied the fine points of duplicating a face?

I also allow this, especially if someone has the appropriate knowledge skill. I'm hoping to float a really paranoid character across a GM soon, uses disguises and Mask spells at the same time, too. If someone pierces the spell, in other words, they still don't see who they're dealing with.

As for someone's inexperience with a specific Mask having a more difficult time convincing someone who is experienced with it that they're not who they are (as in your Minotaur/Merrow example), I wouldn't really do that. The illusion effects the mind of the person who's watching it. Thus, if the person doesn't beat the threshold set by the successes of the illusion spellcasting test, their mind will create an appropriate mask.

'Course, I'd allow appropriate background knowledge skills and/or experience with a specific type of Mask to potentially assist the Perception test needed to see through the illusion.

Posted by: Method Jan 7 2008, 08:10 AM

I kind of like this idea, and you really could apply it to a variety of situations (far beyond casting illusions that is).

But then again I may be biased since I miss the complementary skill rules from SR3...

[EDIT]: by-the-by I just noticed a canon precedent for this- BBB p.125 under the forgery skill basically describes a similar mechanic...

QUOTE (BBB p.125)

Note that some forgeries will require additional skill tests in
order to pull them off ; the quality of the forgery (hits scored) will
be limited by the complementary skill hits. Forging a painting,
for example, requires an ability to paint—the hits on the Forgery
Test cannot exceed the hits scored on the Artisan Test to create the
painting. As another example, doctoring an image would require a
Computer + Edit program Test in addition to the Forgery Test.

Posted by: Dashifen Jan 7 2008, 02:31 PM

Interesting. Good catch, Method.

Posted by: Fortune Jan 7 2008, 06:32 PM

There's also some references to Knowledge skills helping Active skill tests in the Medical section of Augmentation on page 120.

Posted by: Nightwalker450 Jan 8 2008, 07:13 PM

Was just looking and wondering if I was alone in thinking that Forgery skill should be Intuition based, and not Agility Based? Since it applies to Counterfeiting, Credstick Forgery, False ID, Image Doctoring, and Paper Forgery? Everything except for the last is actually data manipulation, and I don't think my coordination with the mouse/key pad should have anything to do with how well I can forge something. I think it should be more Intuition as to how much of the tiny details you can spot/are able to put in than how limber you are.

Forgery has more in common with Disguise and Artisan (both Intuition) than how well I can shoot a gun, jump through hoops, maneuver old fashioned key locks, or melee.

Posted by: Jaid Jan 9 2008, 04:26 AM

i don't think forgery is the skill you think it is.

you use forgery to paint a fake picasso and have it look real.

you use forgery to duplicate someone's handwriting, such as a signature.

you use forgery for making a fake rollex watch.

you could probably even use forgery to make a standard vehicle look like a specific, customised vehicle.

you do not use forgery to create fake IDs.

you do not use forgery to create fake licenses.

you could, however, use forgery to create a hardcopy of a license or item of fake ID that *looks* real. creating the actual data trail to back such a *hypothetical thing up would be purely hacking/computer skills, or even more likely it would involve bribing the correct people, calling in a few favors, etc. it explicitly requires a large network of people to create one.

* (let's face it, no one uses paper ID in the 2070s anymore anyways, so there *is* no such thing as what i was describing. but if there was such a thing, you could make a fake one that looks real, until they run it through their computer system).

Posted by: Nightwalker450 Jan 10 2008, 03:23 PM

QUOTE (Jaid)

i don't think forgery is the skill you think it is.

Actually everything I listed as Forgery are the Specializations allowed for it. So forgery is exactly that faking information. But anyways back to as I was saying does being able to touch your toes and have a steady hand mean you can forge well, or does being able to pick up the little details that make something unique allow you to forge well.

Posted by: Riley37 Jan 10 2008, 05:04 PM

I suspect that categorizing Forgery as an Agility skill is a holdover from the D&D mechanic of classifying steady hands and agility together as Dexterity. My conception of a forger at work at their table is fairly close to my conception of a jeweller, computer hardware technician, or gunsmith, and the technical skills are mostly based on LOG. INT represents ability to respond "on the fly" to changing events, and is not the most relevant trait if you can take time to do a task methodically.

Posted by: Fortune Jan 10 2008, 06:54 PM

Even though a Skill is listed with a linked Attribute does not mean that the GM cannot decide that a more appropriate Attribute applies in certain situations. The book even has examples of this very type of thing. So, if the test calls for a steady hand, then Agility is the right stat, and if insight is needed instead, then Logic or Intuition should be the matching Attribute for that particular test.