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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Need information on Yomi

Posted by: Cardul Jan 6 2008, 09:16 AM

OK, well my GM and I are getting ready for a new game to celebrate the release of Corporate Enclaves, and neither of us have anything other then the brief mention of Yomi in the Year of the Comet.

Since my GM is planning on the game being set in Neo-Tokyo, one big question has come up: When was a Meta sent to Yomi? Was it over a certain age? At birth? If they failed to keep their heads down?

Can you have a meta over 6 years old who was born in Japan and not have been sent to Yomi? Or is it an automatic that if you were alive and in Japan during the time that the Japanese were sending Metas to Hell, that you were sent, no ifs, ands or buts about it?

If a character DID go to Yomi, what skills/attributes would be recommended?

(Note: My GM avoids here like the plague because of how everyone wants to house rule everything..something about "Official Sites should not have House Rules", so, please keep the compunction to change the game out of this. The site my GM uses, which is for a Shadowrun MU* in the process of converting to 4th Edition, seems to have frustrated her because they don't answer the questions asked on this. They said the processes started in 2021 or 2022.)

Posted by: Grinder Jan 6 2008, 10:57 AM

You do know that Yomi has changed a lot in Shadows of Asia? It's no longer a prison island, but ruled by the inhabitants iirc.

Posted by: Large Mike Jan 6 2008, 11:20 AM

This is not an official site. It is (iirc) owned/operated by Neuron Basher out of pocket and the kindness of his own heart.

Posted by: Synner Jan 6 2008, 12:05 PM

As Large Mike has correctly pointed out, while Dumpshock is the premiere English language Shadowrun portal/forum and several of the authors and devs (myself included) hang around here it is not an official site.

Posted by: Cardul Jan 6 2008, 12:39 PM

QUOTE (Grinder)

You do know that Yomi has changed a lot in Shadows of Asia? It's no longer a prison island, but ruled by the inhabitants iirc.

ghouls, Vampires, and Wendigo? Yeah...real vacation spot(that is what is stated in Corporate Enclaves PDF as all that was left on the island).

So, basicly, Yomi was never a prison island? Despite a more recent source then Shadows of Asia saying it was?

Or is it just that no-body knows the answers to the questions I asked because they are not rules related?

The information I have from the references in Corporate Enclaves(including a side bar of someone describing life there!) was that it was a bad place, where if you got cut, you gave serious thought to whether it would be better to be infected with HMMVV or die of the imminent infection, since there was no medical support given there.

Now, that does not sound right to me...especially when it is considered that moving to the Yokohama Ward was only trading one Hell for another, just one with a semblence of freedom.

So, basicly, though, since there are no canon answers, my GM should either abandon running a game in Neotokyo, because some of the players want to play metahumans, or say that all Metahumans have to be 6 years old, or from another country?

Oh, and as for the people who say this is not an official website, allow me to point out 1)Dumpshock is run by Adam Jury, the same guy who runs Catalyst's main page and the shadowrun webpage, 2) is where the line developer himself refers people to discuss the game in the same capacity as the official CBT forums. While it may not have Catalyst and Wizkids stamp on it, this is where the people in charge tell us to go, and, you know, Developers and Writers for other catalyst products don't post on unofficial forums(never seen a post from Randall or Herb on Sarna.net or Solaris7.com), so this *is* an official forum. If it walks alike a duck, talks like a duck...(If it is maintained by TPTB, is where TPTB speak, and is where TPTB tell us to go, then it is the defacto official site)

Posted by: knasser Jan 6 2008, 12:56 PM

QUOTE (Cardul @ Jan 6 2008, 12:39 PM)

so this *is* an official forum. If it walks alike a duck, talks like a duck...

Well I'd say that if developers or representatives of a company tell you that something isn't an official site, that's a pretty unshakeable argument that it isn't.

And aside from which, whilst the developers are accorded huge respect on these boards (stop laughing, you lot! ) when you ask a question on Dumpshock you are in no way entitled to expect the responses to represent official rulings. I'm not a developer, but I imagine they don't particularly want every comment they make here to be regarded as an official proclamation.

All that said, I first recall reading about Yomi in the SR fiction line in Choose Your Enemies Carefully by Robert N Charrette, second volume in the Secrets of Power trilogy. I don't have it to hand, but it seemed that anyone who goblinised was shipped off to Yomi which was briefly described as a lawless barrens, where ghouls ran riot. I can't be certain, but am pretty certain that the metas shipped there wasn't just the goblinised, but included elves at least. You can find more information on it in the Sixth World Wiki http://wiki.dumpshock.com/index.php/Yomi_Island (that may or may not be sufficiently "official" for you). It says that there's information available in Cyberpirates.

Hope this helps,

-Khadim.

EDIT: Fixed link as Ryu pointed out.

Posted by: Ryu Jan 6 2008, 01:21 PM

What Knasser said. DS is close to an official forum by the quality of its membership alone (YOU WERE TOLD TO STOP LAUGHING!).

Repaired Link: http://wiki.dumpshock.com/index.php/Yomi_Island

But anyways. Grinder told you that Yomi was a prison island, not that it wasn´t.

If you want older Japanese metahumans without Yomi experience, you have

-returned expatriates
--who have fled the country
--who were protected by the megas because they were valuable

-SINless
--hidden by their families/friends
--hidden in lawless areas of town

-SINners
--hidden by their families/friends
--hidden in plain sight (Human looking advantage, magic)

Posted by: Cardul Jan 6 2008, 02:23 PM

QUOTE (Ryu)

My understanding of what Grinder said was: When he said alot was changed in SHadows of Asia(remembering that there was always precious little devoted TO Asia before then), and that it was no longer a Prison Island(without providing an answer to any of my questions) was that Shadows of Asia was a Retcon that had been Retconned by Corporate Enclaves.(After all..this is FASA/FanPro/Catalyst..things that were accepted for a long time tend to get changed out of the blue sometimes)

Admittedly, I do find it hard to see how the Japanese could justify sending INFANTS to a prison island(as Elves and Dwarves, as I have always understood it, were born elves and dwarves originally, while Orks and Trolls Goblinized).

But, OK..so things my GM and I should tell players is that if they want to play a Meta, they need to either explain how they stayed out of Yomi, or they need to have decent combat and outdoors skills to represent that they spent all but the last 6 years in a place where they were being hunted by rape gangs, ghouls, vampires, Wendigo(the mention of the laser fence to keep the Wendigo in), hardened criminals, corps wanting to grab them for experimentation, and guards just wanting to have some fun, right?

As much as my GM and I loathe houserules, I could almost see making Human Looking 5 points more in Neo-Tokyo, just because it is so..useful.

Posted by: knasser Jan 6 2008, 03:29 PM

Shadowrun almost never retconns anything. Perhaps minor tweaks on the height of trolls, but usually the designers go to enormous lengths to preserve continuity or justify something that a previous mad developer did in a fit of "creativity" as something that actually makes sense.

A revolutionary group called the HUK overthrew the Japanese control of Yomi, freeing the inhabitants, with the aid of the Great Dragon Masaru. Unless someone has something more recent, then I presume they're still in control.

Anyway, everything Ryu said.

-K.

Posted by: MYST1C Jan 6 2008, 05:56 PM

QUOTE (Cardul)

My understanding of what Grinder said was: [Retcon]

Nope, it wasn't retcon.
Yomi used to be a metahuman prison island before it was liberated by the Huk rebels and the Emperor abolished the anti-metahuman laws (detailed in "Shadows of Asia").

QUOTE

Admittedly, I do find it hard to see how the Japanese could justify sending INFANTS to a prison island(as Elves and Dwarves, as I have always understood it, were born elves and dwarves originally, while Orks and Trolls Goblinized).

The point is that to the Japanese metahumans were not human! They were something unnatural, lesser even than animals.
Hence no qualms about sending these creatures to some giant concentration camp. At least removing them from sight would take a bit of the shame from the poor parents who gave birth to such a monstrosity...

Posted by: Ancient History Jan 6 2008, 06:50 PM

There is reference to Yomi in Corporate Enclaves, but keep in mind it'll be the Japanese perspective on things.

Posted by: Demonseed Elite Jan 6 2008, 06:58 PM

QUOTE

Can you have a meta over 6 years old who was born in Japan and not have been sent to Yomi?

The simple answer is yes. You just need to have an explanation for what they were doing, and it can't be that they were just living a casual life strolling down the streets of Tokyo whistling a happy tune.

As has been mentioned, they could have had someone protecting them, shielding them from the public. Perhaps out of compassion or perhaps out of shame. Maybe they left Japan and are just now returning, following the Emperor's promises to change the nation (and learning that it's not quite that easy). Or maybe they joined other metahumans and fled to the tunnels underneath Tokyo, forming inclusive communities that hid from the Japanese government (see the Sub-Tokyo entry in Corporate Enclaves).

Posted by: Ryu Jan 6 2008, 09:36 PM

On a positive note, in a setting like this the points value of "Human looking" should indeed be higher! Like the points cost adjustment for allergies (common/uncommon), and quality costs for hackers/non-hackers.

Posted by: Whipstitch Jan 6 2008, 09:43 PM

That's only really a positive note if you're a GM that gets their rocks off by raising the point cost on things. In which case I pity them and their players. Considering the high social penalty for being "outed" if anything I'd consider lowering the cost.

Posted by: Ryu Jan 6 2008, 09:51 PM

Hmm. After everyone was satisfied with 400BP, I simply gave them another 50BP. They would not object. I would generally weaken several negative qualities, from the same fairness POV. Human-looking is already a very common quality for our Seattle-based group. I did not want to come across as limiting GM. I´m quite the opposite.

Posted by: Method Jan 7 2008, 12:09 AM

QUOTE (Cardul @ Jan 6 2008, 05:39 AM)

this is where the people in charge tell us to go...

It seems like you have an unusual perspective on the relationship between the people that write the game and the people that play it.

Shadowrun has had a long and tumultuous history of changing hands from one company to the next, and most of the people who originally wrote the story have long since moved on to other things.

The point here is that the freelancers (note the use of that term) are just long time players like you and me that have taken up the cause to ensure that the game lives on. They do a great deal of work, and the time they spend around here is just a bonus for the rest of us.

We should all be thankful to have such unprecedented access to them. But it is a privilege, not a right.

Posted by: Whipstitch Jan 7 2008, 12:23 AM

Yeah, I should have phrased things better anyway, Ryu; in hindsight my tone was a touch needlessly confrontational. I guess the "problem" is my (ever so slight) beef with the Neo-Tokyo setting in general; at a fundamental design level, it's neither an inclusive setting nor one that is easy to reconcile many character backgrounds with. It's a well done setting, just not one that I'm in a position to take advantage of with any of my current groups, which makes me kind of grumpy anytime I think I see anything that looks like it may make life even trickier for a player in a Neo-Tokyo setting simply because they're curious about trying an ork for a change. So I apologize; any testiness wasn't purposely aimed at you.

Posted by: Ryu Jan 7 2008, 12:52 AM

No problem, I just wanted to put it my opinion into perspective. Unfortunatly I do not have the chance to read Corp Enclaves so far. There is not even a german publisher as far as we know...

Posted by: Cardul Jan 7 2008, 01:04 AM

QUOTE (Ryu)

No problem, I just wanted to put it my opinion into perspective. Unfortunatly I do not have the chance to read Corp Enclaves so far. There is not even a german publisher as far as we know...

Welcome to the American side of things...You germans got so many sourcebooks that we never got...with information that we only get peripherally, that it is kind of sad. I would have loved reading about the fight between Lofwyr and that other Great...but, that was for Germans only.

Maybe when Holostreets emerges oneday(My current bet: december 24, 2012, if we are REALLY lucky), we Americans will see the English Translations of the german sourcebooks.

Of course, you could always do what I did: go to the Battleshop, and buy the PDF. It is not quite as nice having it in dead tree, but...it is a way to get it before I have to spend 2-3 weeks for my FLGS to get it in after I have to special order the dead-tree version.

Posted by: Whipstitch Jan 7 2008, 01:10 AM

CE is alright, although it's hard for me to be too enthusiastic about it simply because I have never in my life given a crap about what happens to LA or been remotely curious as to what goes on there, IRL or in Shadowrun. I would have much preferred Vladivostok or expanded information on Dubai and Tenochtitlan (yeah, I know the Azzies have been covered a lot; I don't care ). I want to know more about how the Russians are coping with China's ongoing fracturing and how EVO and Buttercup operate, but that will have to wait for further books, I suppose. I too suffer greatly from Germany envy when it comes to the number of sourcebooks there are out there.

Posted by: Grinder Jan 7 2008, 12:45 PM

QUOTE (Ryu)

No problem, I just wanted to put it my opinion into perspective. Unfortunatly I do not have the chance to read Corp Enclaves so far. There is not even a german publisher as far as we know...

I didn't have problems to find Corp Enclave in several webshops.

Posted by: Grinder Jan 7 2008, 12:47 PM

QUOTE (MYST1C)

QUOTE (Cardul)

My understanding of what Grinder said was: [Retcon]

Nope, it wasn't retcon.
Yomi used to be a metahuman prison island before it was liberated by the Huk rebels and the Emperor abolished the anti-metahuman laws (detailed in "Shadows of Asia").

Exactly.
For the record: I didn't know that there was reference to Yomi in Corp Enclaves, 'cause I haven't read the book thus far. I'm sorry for the confusion I caused with my first post.

Posted by: Ryu Jan 7 2008, 01:31 PM

You might know that buying the english dead-tree version in Hannover should not really be a problem either (Fantasy Inn at Aegidientorplatz has english products in stock). My basic problem is that the rather low priority of german SR products CGL demonstrates will only increase with the number of german books sold (sound business decisions assumed).

Posted by: Riley37 Jan 7 2008, 06:31 PM

I don't know Japanese culture all that well, but I can readily imagine attitudes about metas such that if a pregnant woman goes to a hospital in Neo-Tokyo to give birth, and the child is elf or dwarf, the doctors tell her that the child is "deformed" and they're very sorry but they have to take it away for "special treatment" and she should not expect to see it again... or they just say "stillborn" if she didn't hear anything showing that the birth was live.

They could then treat the infant as if it were stillborn. Nursing and caring for a newborn takes a lot of effort; why bother, if you don't consider it human? Did the JIS built a pediatric medical facility on Yomi to make sure all the "little monsters" got immunizations and checkups?

This is grim, gritty stuff here, and I imagine it along the lines of the worst that humanity has shown in our real history. When there is hope, it's the kind of hope by which Anne Frank managed not to give up on humanity while she was in hiding. (What she thought after she was captured, is not recorded in her diary.)

Posted by: CircuitBoyBlue Jan 7 2008, 09:50 PM

Another thing to keep in mind about the age of people going into Yomi is that not every metahuman is born a metahuman. Orcs and Trolls goblinize. And I'm not entirely sure, but I think the book says it usually happens around puberty. Puberty itself is a variable age, and if it can happen after puberty, then goblinization can occur relatively late in life (maybe late teens or early twenties, even?). I mean, I'm not sure of this, not being a--well, whatever word they come up with to mean "doctor that specializes in metahumanity"--cryptogeneticist? Whatever, I'm not one. But neither is anybody you're ever going to meet. Ever. So it is well within the bounds of your GM to okay someone's backstory of "I was a human until last week!" If the GM wants, that is.

Posted by: Jaid Jan 7 2008, 10:07 PM

there are still people goblinizing, but it is explicitly not as common as it used to be.

Posted by: Riley37 Jan 8 2008, 12:36 AM

QUOTE (Cardul)

If a character DID go to Yomi, what skills/attributes would be recommended?

Immunity to HMMV, all strains; failing that, really good hygenic practices.

Etiquette enough to get along with people forced to create their own society and sub-societies, and who have lots of reason to distrust newcomers.

Intimidation, or visibly dangerous enough not be a safe target for anyone who's hungry or feels like picking a fight to blow off steam or wants your stuff, or bodyguards with same. Suffering brings out the best in some people (cf Victor Frankl), and the worst in others.

An identity with SIN and connections that will be respected by JIS (since you'll probably cross their path on the way in and/or out), and one with social status and connections that will be respected by the Huks; if those are not the same, the ability to rapidly switch identities.

If you have Ork Poser or Elf Poser, buy it off with Karma before entering Yomi!

Posted by: Cardul Jan 8 2008, 02:39 AM

QUOTE (Riley37)

QUOTE (Cardul @ Jan 6 2008, 04:16 AM)

If a character DID go to Yomi, what skills/attributes would be recommended?

Immunity to HMMV, all strains; failing that, really good hygenic practices.

(snip)

If you have Ork Poser or Elf Poser, buy it off with Karma before entering Yomi!

1) I thought you could not take immunity to HMVV?

2) I know my GM is not going to allow the two Poser negative qualities, in fact, she is going to be strongly discouraging people taking guns. And she is talking heavily about upping the price of Human Looking.

Of course, this raises an interesting question: If someone re-patriates from Yomi following the repeal of the Yomi Act, do they have a regular SIN or a Criminal SIN?

Posted by: Ancient History Jan 8 2008, 02:46 AM

QUOTE (Cardul)

1) I thought you could not take immunity to HMVV?

You can't.

Posted by: DTFarstar Jan 8 2008, 04:35 AM

Huh, for some reason I thought you could get immunized vs. the Kreiger strain.

Chris

Posted by: Riley37 Jan 8 2008, 06:58 AM

QUOTE (Ancient History)

QUOTE (Cardul @ Jan 8 2008, 02:39 AM)

1) I thought you could not take immunity to HMVV?

You can't.

Exactly. Immunity is strongly recommended, but not available. So the best you can do, and you'd damn well better take it seriously, is very, very careful hygenic practices. Pack some food and water, and plan how to disinfect anything you'll ingest. Spend a week wearing gloves with paint on them, without once getting paint on your face or other exposed skin, and that's good practice for the habits that will get you through your time on Yomi without losing your enjoyment of daylight. (While I was working in a preschool, and washing my hands every hour or so, my roommate was working with radioactive tracers in a biolab. Our kitchen was kept clean!)

While I'm on the topic, and since it's a plot point in my campaign - if someone is infected, and receives a Cure Disease spell before the transformation, would or could that stop the virus from transforming them into a vampire, ghoul, or other paracritter? My PC is assuming that the earlier, the better, although as a player I know the GM will make it work or fail depending on plot. An NPC is infected with Krieger strain, and afraid of losing her intelligence, and my PC hopes to save her by getting her to a mage. If Cure Disease fails, we might try getting Increase BOD and Increase WIL cast on her, and sustain those through the critical period, to increase her odds of staying alive and sapient while she becomes a ghoul. In which case, now there's a ghoul that owes us a favor...

Posted by: Riley37 Jan 8 2008, 07:10 AM

QUOTE (Cardul)

Of course, this raises an interesting question: If someone re-patriates from Yomi following the repeal of the Yomi Act, do they have a regular SIN or a Criminal SIN?

That raises questions beyond the granularity/specificity of RAW. I doubt that the international registry marks SINs with a single bit (1=criminal, 0=noncriminal). I imagine that JIS databases would have a flag specifically for Yomi repatriates. Anywhere in JIS, and many other places, people who check your profile and see that flag, may treat you differently and with suspicion. So I'd say it qualifies for the extra points as a negative quality. Some people might see that flag and be sorry that your nation treated you poorly, and try to be nice to you... but not many, and that might be patronizing, annoying or draw attention to you, more often than it's helpful. If you're an elf and you go to Tir and they see that flag on your profile, you might get the kind of respect that a Holocaust survivor gets in Israel. Or they just might be uncomfortable.

Posted by: Ryu Jan 8 2008, 08:44 AM

The ban on guns Japans criminals used to have is already fading AFAIK. As is the traditional of tattoos in the Yakuza; since 1993, being part of a gumi is already a crime. That one makes full-body criminal flags somewhat undesireable.

If you want to have tats on a character, I strongly suggest considering Dermal Sheating with Ruthenium Option (and I would have liked an optional system starting with arms and legs on that one).

For old SINs, he who reads the SIN knows the full criminal history, not just flags. So anyone who cares and has access to the criminal history can make a Yomi Flag show up on all who have been there. Or you handle it more subtle and issue new SINs without any previous history to the victims, essentially creating SINs that are suspicious because of their creation date, but not officially criminal.

Posted by: Lagomorph Jan 8 2008, 05:01 PM

QUOTE (Cardul)

(Note: My GM avoids here like the plague because of how everyone wants to house rule everything..something about "Official Sites should not have House Rules", so, please keep the compunction to change the game out of this.

QUOTE (cardul)

And she is talking heavily about upping the price of Human Looking.

House ruling has infected another GM!

Ok, for back stories, you came up with a few yourself Cardul (escaped corp experiments, Yomi survivor) as well as the others have suggested, human poser, ex-pat, or well hidden. In addition to this, I'll add resistance fighters (Meta Liberation Front or some such guerilla type group).

Anyway, welcome to dump shock!

Posted by: Cardul Jan 9 2008, 02:34 AM

QUOTE (Lagomorph)

QUOTE (Cardul)

QUOTE (cardul)

And she is talking heavily about upping the price of Human Looking.

House ruling has infected another GM!

I think it is impossible for a GM to NOT house rule. The difference is, unlike the impression she gets from here, any of her house rules fit on one sheet of paper, while most DumpShockers plot down a folder of House Rules bigger then the main book. Also, the only changes she ever does generally only effect Qualities in CHargen(upping the points of one, banning others). They don't actually effect game balance like what happens here often does.

Posted by: Fortune Jan 9 2008, 03:20 AM

I really think you have a misguided impression of Dumpshock and its membership.

Posted by: Jaid Jan 9 2008, 03:57 AM

yeah, dumpshock would be awfully boring and pointless if all we ever did was talk about how we didn't change the rules at all.

Posted by: DTFarstar Jan 9 2008, 11:51 AM

I mean hell, even Frank's house rules fit on less than 50 sheets of paper, and I think he has the most what with rewriting the matrix and char gen. The BBB is at least 6 times that size... yeesh!

Chris

Posted by: Ryu Jan 9 2008, 02:02 PM

Well, until I finish my Matrix Mechanics, there is no sheet of house rules at our group. At all. Everyone of us has some beef with some rule, and everyone else likes to help out finding a better one.

That does not say that any houserule idea created is actually used. "Ease of reference" is a positive quality that should not be underestimated.

Posted by: Cardul Jan 10 2008, 09:28 PM

So, my GM ran her ideas for the minimum stats for someone who came back from Yomi(what she calls 'The Yomi Package'), and I thought I would run it by people here to see if there is anything I should tell my GM she should add.

Attributes: Body 40 BP
Willpower 30 BP

Skills: Survival(Yomi) 4(+2)(26 BP)
First Aid 4 (24 points)
Clubs(Improvised) 2(+2)(10 BP)

Negative Qualities: "Criminal" SINner (-10 BP)

Positive Qualities: Resistance to Pathogens(5 BP)
Guts(5 BP)
Total: 130 BP

Recommended: Quick Healing, Will to Live, Uncouth

Banned: Ork/Elf Poser, Human Looking, Weak Immune System

Posted by: Fortune Jan 10 2008, 10:04 PM

Meh. I just let players make their own characters, and explain their survival in whichever way they deem fit.

Posted by: Ryu Jan 10 2008, 10:16 PM

I think that is the limit of what could be justified by Yomi alone. Much more then the minimum. There were millions transfered, there will have been some social structures, many more ways of survival. Doing things for the clan, even if selling ones body. Living in hell does not make a strong body, nor a character that can bear even more bad experiences.

So maybe you could prescribe Survival 1. Maybe First Aid 1. But not a professional experience in both. The healer would be the pride of any clan, no need to starve. "Guts" is out especially after the demand for willpower. And why clubs? The basic weapon is UNARMED!!!

Posted by: Ravor Jan 10 2008, 11:45 PM

Even though I am a huge supporter of pre-genning chracters based off the Player's vision, I would walk away from a campaign that forced draconician "Character Packages" on me.

However with that said, I would look askew at any character coming out of any hell hole without at least some survival skills or abilities, but I think Ryu covered what should be expected fairly well.

Posted by: Grinder Jan 11 2008, 03:02 PM

QUOTE (Ryu)

And why clubs? The basic weapon is UNARMED!!!

Unarmed Combat should be in the package too. But Clubs are common too: large sticks, bones or arms.