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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Question About Levitate

Posted by: Mercer Jan 6 2008, 09:09 PM

This came up last game, and I wasn't sure what the official answer would be. If I was casting a Force 4 Levitate at a 600kg object (Threshold 3), and I achieved 4 successes, would the object move at Force*Net Hits or Force*Net Hits over Threshold.

If its the former, the slowest you can move a Threshold 3 object is Force*3 (since you can't even pick it up without getting 3 successes), in the latter you can pick up an object and be unable to move it (no successes over Threshold 3 would be Force*0 net hits).

Either way bugs me a little. I'm considering making it Threshold=1 net hit, and having extra successes add in on top of that, but I am unsure if that would be unnecessarily limiting. (But it still seems odd for a character to say, "Jeez, 1200kg. I don't know if I can pick it up, but if I can, its going to fly."

Posted by: Karaden Jan 6 2008, 09:22 PM

Since net hits are by definition the number of hits achived over threshold, the answer is quite simple. If you cast it at force for on threshold 3 and get 4 hits, then it moves at force(4) times net hits (1).

*edit* I would assume that an exact hit (3 successes on a threshold of 3) means that it will basicly make the object weightless. Unable to move under the power of the spell, but the mage could easily push it around. Maybe if the GM is nice it could move at 1 meter a combat turn.

Posted by: Mercer Jan 6 2008, 11:40 PM

That was my position as well, but someone cited a line of text that indicated all the hits were considered net hits. I don't have my book with me (I'm at work, supposedly working I guess), so I'll have to get back to you guys with that.

Posted by: Ravor Jan 6 2008, 11:44 PM

At the moment I don't have access to my books, but does the spell actualy say that a Mage has to move an object at the spell's limit? If so then I guess I can add that to my pile of houserules.

Posted by: Karaden Jan 6 2008, 11:51 PM

QUOTE (Ravor @ Jan 6 2008, 06:44 PM)

At the moment I don't have access to my books, but does the spell actualy say that a Mage has to move an object at the spell's limit? If so then I guess I can add that to my pile of houserules.

No, the mage can move an object slower then that limit, that is the max speed.

I'll go look up the exact page number about net hits. I'm guessing he is thinking of summoning spirits, in which all of the spirit's hits (not just net hits) count towards the drain (because otherwise it would never have drain because you always win... usually)

*edit* Here it is

QUOTE (p56)

Th e more net hits a character scores (the more hits exceed
the threshold), the more the task was pulled off with fi nesse
and fl air. So a character who rolls 4 hits on a threshold 2 test
has scored 2 net hits.

Posted by: Mercer Jan 7 2008, 02:12 AM

Having gotten home and dug out my book, that's the quote I came across as well. I'll check with the player and see where in the book he was looking (its not outside the realm of possibility that there is a line of text that confuses net and total hits), so we're all on the same page. Turns out my Threshold equals Base Move (which I was worried would be unnecessarily limiting) is actually rather liberal. Thanks for the help, guys.

Posted by: Karaden Jan 7 2008, 02:20 AM

No trouble, and try flipping to the section on summoning and binding spirts and asking your player if that looks like the section he read it in.

Posted by: Mercer Jan 7 2008, 04:30 AM

I believe I've found the offending passage:

QUOTE (SR4 @ p. 195)

Threshold/Resistance
Many spells require a threshold-- a minimum number of net hits (emphasis mine)-- in order for the spell to succeed. Other spells are resisted by their targets, and so are treated as Opposed Tests instead. Spells that affect non-living targets are not opposed, but may have a threshold for the spell to succeed (see Object Resistance, p. 174).

The first sentence of this paragraph makes it sound like the threshold is comprised of net hits, which might be the source of the confusion. I don't see anything in the errata, although it seems like you could take the word "net" out of that sentence and it'd go a long way towards clearing up this confusion. In previous editions there were spells that were both opposed and required a threshold-- the mental manipulations worked this way, for instance-- and for those spells your net successes had to meet or exceed the threshold. But SR4 clearly defines "net hits" as hits in excess of the threshold (p. 56), and I'm not aware of any part of the system other than that first line that would reverse that.

Posted by: Karaden Jan 7 2008, 04:45 AM

Hmm, I'm thinking your right and it was a simple mistake. It could also be that they where originally planning to include things like that where you had to hit a threshold and do an opposed test. For example, levitate says that in order to lift an object held by a person you need to get a net hit opposed by their str + bod. However the threshold for affecting an object seems to have suddenly disappeared, meaning it may actually be easier to levitate an object held by a weak person then to just levitate the object from the ground.

It could be that the spell is unclear and means that you need beat a threshold of the object threshold + the opposed guy's hits.

Posted by: Fortune Jan 7 2008, 05:30 AM

QUOTE (Karaden)

... you need beat a threshold of the object threshold + the opposed guy's hits.

That's how I would rule it.

Posted by: Mercer Jan 7 2008, 08:08 AM

QUOTE

However the threshold for affecting an object seems to have suddenly disappeared, meaning it may actually be easier to levitate an object held by a weak person then to just levitate the object from the ground.

Well, you need 1 net hit (over and above the BOD+STR opposed test) to Levitate the item, which should cover the weight. Threshold 1 (even though in this case the Threshold would be the BOD+STR hits, and the net successes would be the hits above that) covers items up to 200kg. If the guy is wielding a 420lb weapon, I think we're safe in assuming that his BOD+STR roll is going to generate a few successes. If the person generates no successes on a BOD+STR test, the spell works as if nothing is impeding the Levitation-- which nothing really would be.
(This of course assumes "1 net hit" means one hit in excess of the Opposed test.)

In the case of trolls or cybermonsters (or cybermonster trolls) who can lift a 200+kg item, I'm fine with saying you have to beat the Levitate Threshold in addition to the BOD+STR hits, but honestly, that guy is going to be throwing around 20 dice to hold on and I don't see the mage beating that anyway. (But what the hell, one day a troll cybermonster might be wielding a motorcycle as a melee weapon, and the guy with the Force 12 Levitate might need to snag it.)

The line of offending text isn't particular to Levitate, that's just the spell that brought it up. Its the Threshold/Resistance paragraph at the beginning of the Street Grimoire, so it would technically apply to all the spells in the book. If you use it as written, it basically changes the definition of "Threshold" and "Net Hits" for the rest of that chapter. (Granted, it comes near the end of the chapter, but still.)

Levitate is weird because its one of the few spells that has a Threshold but isn't based on the Object Resistance Table, but on weight. Most of the other threshold spells are OR, but if you apply the line on p. 195 (for whatever reason), that would mean that if you meet a particular object's OR (say 4 for Toxic Waste), you have that many net hits. Since that is directly contradicted by the example on p. 174 (Powerbolting the ganger or his motorcycle), I think its safe to say its an anachronism or a typo.

But it would kinda/sorta matter in the case of the troll cybermonster wielding the motorcycle as a club. Since its Opposed, you need would need net hits on top of his BOD+STR test to beat the Threshold of the Motorcycle, and then net-net hits (or whatever) on top of that to actually move the item.

So if TCM got 10 hits on his Opposed Test, you'd need 13 to move the motorcycle. 10 to beat the troll, 2 to lift the motorcycle (the threshold of a 201kg thing), and then 1 net hit to move the motorcycle Force*1 meters per turn.

(What this really makes me want to do is make a troll who uses motorcycles as clubs.)

Posted by: Karaden Jan 7 2008, 05:07 PM

Yeah, mistake on my part. I was thinking of the object threshold needed for other spells being applied to levitate, forgot that it only concerned itself with weight (whereas most other spells deal with how refined the object is)