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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Cyberware Limits

Posted by: ShaunClinton Jan 7 2008, 06:12 PM

Hi guys,

Scanning through a whole bunch of posts on Essence costs for cyberware and practical limits I never saw any mention of the Surgery rules in M&M and how they relate to Essence costs.

Even using the rules exactly as written (which I don't, but close enough) it is pretty simple to get 2 or 3 reductions on most cybersurgery... especially if you get it installed in a superior facility.

Once you start talking about deltaware and adept-surgeons and the like then you can make even greater Essence reductions on implantation. In fact some of our PCs struggle to believe you could run out of Essence and take the cyberzombie plunge! Deltaware with 4 reductions means that you can get 20 Essence worth of 'ware into a normal guy!

Anyone else use said rules or what?

Posted by: Karaden Jan 7 2008, 06:19 PM

Can we get a page number on those rules?

But one thing to point out, is that 20 essence worth of deltaware.... well, if you have several million to burn on cyberware, then there are much larger questions to be raised here. Even deltaware of fairly cheap stuff is a few hundred thousand.

*edit* also, you may want to put this in the SR4 forum.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 7 2008, 06:26 PM

Why would he want to do that, seeing as it's a question about Man and Machine?

~J

Posted by: Karaden Jan 7 2008, 07:23 PM

My bad, thought it was a question about Augmentation.

None the less. If someone really wanted to be a cyberzombie, it would be really easy to just -not- buy deltaware, or use subpar clinics.

Of course saying something like 'you could just buy 20 points worth of deltaware and not have to worry about essence' is kind of stupid. I mean deltaware costs what? 10 times the normal amount? So what would normally be 100,000 worth of ware would cost you a full million, and if your looking at 20 essence worth, your looking at many millions of nuyen. If the person can afford that, you really have to ask the question: why in the world are they not just buying a nice house to live the rest of their days in comfort?

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 7 2008, 08:59 PM

Now that I've got my books and some time (ok, that's a lie, I don't have time but I'm replying anyway), I would also seriously question the assertion that it is "pretty simple to get 2 or 3 reductions". I don't conclusively know that it's hard, though, so let's run some numbers.

First off, let's take a look at what's required to get 2 reductions. To achieve this, the Surgery Test must yield 5 net successes, with the highest success beating the cumulative Surgical Threshold. Making sure I'm properly giving the odds of succeeding at both of these tasks is something that would take more time than I have right now, so I'll be more verbose about my work than usual. The total Threshold Modifier is +4, so the doc is looking for 5 successes against the base TN, and one success against the base TN +4.

Then, let's see how we can muck around the base TN. We start with TN 4 (Install Cyberware), assume a Medical Facility (-2), for a TN of 2. We'll add on extra doctors as needed to keep the TN below 3, since there's no limit provided. Magical care is not cost-effective in this artificial scenario. We'll be generous and assume that the patient goes into this unawakened, no bioware, and with 6 Essence. Since Deltaware is being implanted, TN is +6, so we hire on six more doctors with Biotech 4, and then an extra four doctors to bring the surgical threshold down to 2 (hey, I guess I shouldn't have worried above).

Now we build our chirurgeon. Theoretically he can have infinite dice at his disposal, provided he'd spent infinite karma first, but we'll assume that he's merely world-class (Medicine 10, Biotech 10). If this ends up being easy, I'll see what the odds are for cost-cutting.

So he starts off by creating a Surgical Profile. With a TN of 4, it's pretty trivial—>99.9% chance of success (I'm keeping more precise figures in the background to calculate overall success chance). We'll assume here that the patient is totally honest about his or her medical history. This will cost 200¥.

Next up is the procedure, which is a test against TN 6. Unless I missed something, there is no way to reduce this TN. This has about an 83.9% chance of success, and will cost 72*8*2*2*2*100¥, or 460,800¥. Note that this cost doesn't factor in the doctor's skill, so we can't save money that way.

Since this is a delta-equipped facility, we'll be looking at eight complementary dice. This gives us TN 2, threshold 5, 10 primary and 8 complementary dice.

Now it's finally time to go under the knife. Success, as it happens, is nearly guaranteed. 99.999%. The overall procedure has about an 83.8% chance of success, which isn't too shabby, I guess I was wrong.

The overall cost of this will be 200¥ (surgical profile) + 460,800¥ (surgical plan) + 1,600¥ (10 doctors with Biotech 10—does this seem low to anyone else?) + 400¥ (Mr. Legendary Doctor—also a tad low, I'd say) = 463,000¥.

Then there's the multiplier for gear use. It's unclear what this applies to, but assuming it applies to all of the doctors, that brings the total price up to 473,000¥. I have to admit that this is chicken feed compared to what the 'ware itself is likely to cost.

Maybe sometime when I don't have stuff due I'll see if the numbers are any saner for non-godlike chirurgeons.

~J

Posted by: CircuitBoyBlue Jan 7 2008, 09:25 PM

QUOTE (Karaden)

why in the world are they not just buying a nice house to live the rest of their days in comfort?

Why in the world would they? If all those numbers Kagetenshi just gave us are any indication, you may as well go under the knife at virtually no risk, and then make all the money back with your suddenly increased earning power. Then you can buy a nice house to go all crazy on people in for the rest of your days, since you'll be a tricked-out killing machine in addition to being rich. It's called being a well-rounded person

Posted by: Karaden Jan 7 2008, 09:34 PM

Well, given that he said came up with about half a million -per operation-, not including the cost of the ware itself. I find it hard to believe that you would be able to increase how much you make by 100k a year or so that would make this an 'inventment' and not just an expence. So yeah, sure, if you can drop about 10 million on wares, and can expect to incrase how much money you make a year by one or two million it just might be an investment. On the other hand you've managed to earn 10 million already, do you really need to increase your income when you can easily retire?

*edit* I suppose the point here is that sure, if your willing to spend a massive investment, you can manage to get a good amount of cyber in you. But for the same investment you can buy yourself a life of comfort with money to spare.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 7 2008, 09:35 PM

The major flaw is that you first have to have all of the money for the 'ware and implantation—I'm pretty sure the usual wisdom that the surgery rules are a short trip to dying on the table still applies if you don't have gobs of cash, though the lack of limit on assisting doctors may make that not true. On the other hand, it would start stretching credibility if key installations and major executives didn't start having bodyguards with ~20 standard-grade-equivalent Essence worth of cyber…

Edit: I did come up with plus half a million per operation, but if I remember my multipliers correctly a set of Deltaware Wired Reflexes already costs 4,000,000¥, while Delta MBW-IV would cost ¥16,000,000 (which probably would never get used—the "you get this, you die" rules make it a bad investment in general. Though I guess you need to implant it in someone to get data from the field, and this would let you cram in some extra standard-grade 'ware at the same time—research projects aren't subject to the same cost-benefit analysis as normal products). It's still a meaningful percentage of the overall cost, but on many big-Essence items it doesn't even account for half of it.

It should be noted that the numbers I gave were for a 10% reduction, or 40% of total. Each additional 5% reduction except for the third (which hits the 6==7 bug) increases the chance of failure to make the plan correctly and doubles the cost of the plan, which is most of the cost, so I guess it is expensive after all.

Ok. I am no longer participating in this discussion until this paper is done.

~J

Posted by: Fortune Jan 7 2008, 09:42 PM

QUOTE (Karaden)

But for the same investment you can buy yourself a life of comfort with money to spare.

Assuming your goal is lots of money or a life of idle luxury, as opposed to the myriad other reasons why people run the shadows.

Posted by: Fortune Jan 7 2008, 09:44 PM

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

... the lack of limit on assisting doctors ...

There really should be some kind of limit here. This would make a difference in your difficulty numbers.

Posted by: FrankTrollman Jan 8 2008, 01:10 PM

QUOTE

Scanning through a whole bunch of posts on Essence costs for cyberware and practical limits I never saw any mention of the Surgery rules in M&M and how they relate to Essence costs.

This is because basically noone uses them. Most people who come in to defend them and talk about how simple they are or how well they work, when questioned more specifically on the subject turn out to make quite extensive house rules to them.

When I was tasked with updating that system to 4th edition in Augmentation - I scrapped the system. Not because I couldn't figure out what it did, but because what it did was to my mind undesirable. And very few people have shaken their fists at me on the subject.

Yes, as written you could potentially get any piece of ware for zero Essence. Of course, if you use those rules and get Deltaware it's because you're a sucker. The limitation on how many positives you can get is not the number of successes you can get - it's hitting the open test. As has already been hinted at on this thread you can get assistants and secondary skills and get functionally limitless successes, but the open test portion is a flat roll off your single personal skill pool. By the time you factor in the fact that Beta Ware has a lower base TN and allows you to get the further TN reduction for using superior tools by installing the Beta Ware in a Delta Clinic - you can get 2 Essence Reductions and have TN to spare. And since your theoretical base TN is lower, you'll even have more total successes meaning that you have to pull less stupid crap to jack your successes up.

Under the Man and Machine rules, Delta Ware doesn't really exist. Delta Clinics just take a couple of positive options on Betaware and charge you extra money for it.

---

But seriously, that sub system wasn't good and people don't use it. When I wrote it out of 4th edition people thanked me.

-Frank

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 8 2008, 01:16 PM

QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Jan 8 2008, 08:10 AM)

Who are these people? Maybe I'm blocking them out, but I can't remember any.

I mean, hell, I'm probably one of the biggest (or at least most active) SR3 defenders/apologists on the boards, and I don't have anything good to say about the surgery rules save that they're placed somewhere where they're easy to ignore.

QUOTE

Yes, as written you could potentially get any piece of ware for zero Essence.

See now, you aren't thinking big enough. Unless I forgot about some restriction mentioned somewhere else, or really missed something when I was rereading the rules, you can get 'ware for negative Essence. Human with 40 Essence? Eat that, shapeshifters!

The basic idea of separating implantation costs from 'ware costs is a good one. However, the surgery rules didn't even do that (they just added a new cost, dramatically increasing the price of 'ware that formerly was assumed to include implantation cost), and essentially everything they did do was bad.

~J

Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 8 2008, 01:36 PM

QUOTE

I scrapped the system

*huggles*

even if i don't like SR4 and subsequently don't play it i STILL find that good ^^

Posted by: ShaunClinton Jan 8 2008, 06:09 PM

I actually don't use the rules entirely as presented in M&M, simply because of an early misconception that persisted and was then seen to make more sense. However, the spirit of them is preserved and the main difference between Kagetenshi's example and my use of them is that I only allow one extra doctor to assist.

Onto Frank Trollman's points:

To me these rules are over-complicated, which is probably why you didn't get too many people shaking their fists at you. The concept of excellent surgery reducing essence costs stretches all the way back to the original Street Samurai Catalogue - it makes sense and personally I don't like the way it was trimmed out in Augmentation (but myriad Edges/Geneware were introduced to tinker with Essence costs instead - those I do like).

As for having 0 Essence cyber, surely only a fool would follow such a literal interpretation of the rules. In our own game we limit the reduction based on the type of 'ware, with the maximum reduction to 5% of cost only available on deltaware from the best clinics. The open test part of the equation isn't really that limiting if you throw a lot of dice at the problem - and it only needs one to explode a couple of times for some spectacular reductions.

I very much disagree with your final three points Frank. I use the system, I think it is good (if flawed) and I won't thank you for writing it out.

Other matters (Karaden):

I hate arguments regarding costs and why 'runners don't just invest in permanent luxury lifestyle. These are presented time and time again to remind us that like to play large that we should be retiring our 100+ karma characters and drip feeding the interest off of our 100,000 nuyen nest egg to keep us in stuffer shack soyburgers for the rest of our days. Not everyone chooses to play the sort of game where the main aim is to escape the streets. A lot of runners have powerful enemies, the sort who won't let you sell your dermal sheath and move to the beach - if you do they'll show up and their bullets will blow huge holes in you. Not to mention the thrill of being faster, stronger and tougher than the next guy. Plus the risks involved in being the fastest, strongest, toughest and always having to stay ahead of the curve lest the next guy bury you to make a name for himself.

Personally in my campaign the PCs have accumulated around 1000 karma and a vast quantity of cash has passed through (and accumulated in) their hands. These characters haven't went on a "Shadowrun" in almost a year, instead they have enemies to take care of and watch out for, personal quests to resolve and goals to accomplish. They won't retire or stop because they don't know how, or they wouldn't be safe or they just can't resist helping a friend in need.

SR3 is far from a perfect system, and when the current campaign wraps I doubt I will use it again... but it works. Sure, we've exhausted its options and exposed its flaws times too numerous to count. But till the day the campaign finishes we'll keep houseruling and fudging our way towards the inevitable end! Hey, we've even co-opted a bunch of stuff from SR4 to keep us going.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 8 2008, 06:16 PM

QUOTE (ShaunClinton @ Jan 8 2008, 01:09 PM)

As for having 0 Essence cyber, surely only a fool would follow such a literal interpretation of the rules.

Why? I mean, I understand that it may be impossible in practice to create a system that requires no GM interpretation, but this is not one of those examples—it's so easy to fix that the right thing to do is to fix it, not let it continue to exist and just say "nuh-uh" every time a player tries to take it to its logical conclusion.

If such a rule exists (which it does), and the GM permits it to stand as written (rather than removing it or replacing it with an explicitly-defined rule), I see no defensible reason for fudging with the interpretation like this.

Incidentally, if you wouldn't mind, I'd greatly appreciate it if you could give me a list of the flaws that you've identified over the years in SR3 that you can remember off the top of your head. We've got a bunch identified already (and a number of http://www.sr3r.net/forum/), but there's always a chance that you'll have a few we've missed.

~J

Posted by: ShaunClinton Jan 8 2008, 07:42 PM

Hi Kagetenshi - based on my (and my players) interpretation of what Essence means to us it just doesn't feel right that you could have 0 Essence cyber, so we don't do it. 5% or 0% is fairly indidental in our experience. A character with 5% reduction can have 120 Essence worth of 'ware which is fairly brutal for most purposes! If you think otherwise, fair enough and good luck to you. I think that with SR being a game there will unavoidably be areas that haven't been thought through well or implemented as intended and see part of my job as GM to ensure that these faults don't interfere with the game.

There is a pretty hefty list of things that are wrong, but I'm short on time so I'll rhyme off a few and come back later with more:

TN6->7, Jumping, Vehicle Collisions, AV Ammo, Flechette Ammo, Naval Weapons, Movement/Cover, Action Distribution w/High Initiative (aka The Initiative Highway), Irresistable Forces, Cyberlimbs, Unavoidable Draws, Stealth, Open Tests, Centring, Anchoring, Cyberzombies, Surgery Rules , Astral Barriers, Tensile Strengths... the list is endless!

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jan 8 2008, 07:46 PM

QUOTE (ShaunClinton)

Tensile Strengths... the list is endless!

Yeah! I have to say, Shadowrun has probably the worst rules for tensile strengths I've seen in an RPG. I mean, come on people. If I just wanted to fudge my tensile strengths I could play Changeling: The Dreaming and have a better cyberpunk game.

............................WTF!?

Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 8 2008, 10:19 PM

someone had better start explaining what this tensile strength is about . . i somehow allways read that as tonsil strength which brings along the not nice image of a troll tongune <.< . .

Posted by: Fortune Jan 8 2008, 10:47 PM

QUOTE (Stahlseele)

... tonsil strength ...

No, no! That's a very rare and specialized Adept Power.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 8 2008, 10:54 PM

yes, i know . . we've got the obviously obligatory elven high charisma adept bitch played by a big burly guy with more of a beard than Al from the show Home-Improvement in our gaming group . . *shudders* <.<

Posted by: tisoz Jan 8 2008, 11:41 PM

I see one real limit to how much essence can be shaved. Each surgery requires a Procedure, which is where one lists the positive options (in this case essence reduction) desired. Each 5% decrease is a separate option. The greatest number of Positive Options that may be listed is limited by the Surgery Skill Rating of the doctor (which given infinite karma could, unrealistically, be infinite) up to the rating of the Medical Equipment used.

The Base rating for the highest listed equipment, Delta grade equipment, is 8. In M&M.136, it is stated Max Rating: The maximum rating of medical gear available to players is 6. Though certain facilities in the world of Shadowrun may have higher ratings, they are beyond the reach of shadowrunners.

This hard cap of 6 limits Positive Options to 6, therefor, Essence reduction to -30%.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 8 2008, 11:44 PM

QUOTE

The maximum rating of medical gear available to players is 6

wait what?
i thought availability is only limited by char gen? O.o
to Availability 8 and below and to grade 6 and below . .
Later on in the Game Availability is only limited by your Money, your Contacts and your Skills and the ability to roll incredibly well ain't it? O.o

Posted by: FrankTrollman Jan 9 2008, 10:44 AM

QUOTE

The open test part of the equation isn't really that limiting if you throw a lot of dice at the problem - and it only needs one to explode a couple of times for some spectacular reductions.

Gosh, you're right. All it needs to do is explode "a couple of times" and you can get some spectacular reductions!

Except of course, that exploding a couple of times is a limit. You on average get one double explosion with a skill of thirty six. Essence Reduction is 2 Threshold a pop. Getting Beta down to the cost of Delta is 4 points off your open test, but since the TN is 5 points lower you start counting your open test 5 points earlier. And with the higher TN you get from putting in a "real" delta system instead of a Beta System that's "just like a Delta System" you need a threshold which is 1 point higher. Then you start counting your Essence reductions from there.

Now even assuming that you instituted your house rule that Delta Grade had any purpose at all in that you were capping Essence Reductions at 9 and therefore you needed Delta to get past a floor of 15% Essence Cost, it still wouldn't really matter. To get to the covetted 10% mark you'd need to be at Delta (+5 TN essentially), and then with your worse TN get 10 hits anyway (no problem with secondary skills, so whatever), and still exceed the TN by a threshold of 16. So... yeah. We aren't talking about a double explosion any more. We're talking about a triple explosion. Something that you'll get 63% of the time with a dice pool of two hundred and sixteen dice.

You know if you get a max rating medical facility, you get 6 extra dice. You only need a skill of 210!

QUOTE

Player characters are not allowed to have Rating 7+ Medical Equipment according to Man and Machine. In Augmentation, I allowed players to get Rating 8 Medical Equipment after chargen.

-Frank

Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 9 2008, 11:56 AM

so technically speaking no medikit of level 8 for players ever?
or antidote/tranq patch of level 8? o.O
hrm . . will have to rework my shadow-doc concept greatly with this bit of missed information <.< . .
But Standard Grade Medical Shop(Clinic) would still be evailable up to level 6?
And an Alpha Grade Medical Shop(Clinic) Level 6 would be available too?
Heck an Beta Grade Medical Shop(Clinic) Level 1 would still be available then? x.x
there has to be something i am doing wrong O.o

Posted by: Fortune Jan 9 2008, 02:12 PM

QUOTE (Stahlseele)

so technically speaking no medikit of level 8 for players ever?

I don't recall seeing a Medkit rated above 6 in the books. Of course, there is the non-portable stuff. See below.

QUOTE

or antidote/tranq patch of level 8?

QUOTE (FrankTrollman)

In Augmentation, I allowed players to get Rating 8 Medical Equipment after chargen.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 9 2008, 02:37 PM

yes yes in augmentation(i still have to get my GM to approve some of the ports i wanna make from SR4 to SR3 from that stuff <.<) and probably most GM's just allow that as a house-rule too . . but as we are here in the good old SR3 boards in Man and Machine? O.o

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 9 2008, 02:42 PM

I believe Medical Equipment is specific equipment, not "anything medically-related", but I don't have time to check.

~J

Posted by: Fortune Jan 9 2008, 02:50 PM

QUOTE (Stahlseele)

... but as we are here in the good old SR3 boards in Man and Machine?

I rarely even notice which of the dumb sub-forums to which a thread is posted. I can't wait for the Administration to fix this abomination.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 9 2008, 02:53 PM

*gg*
i don't really care . . i like what you did with augmentation, even if i hate SR4 <.<

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 9 2008, 03:35 PM

QUOTE (Fortune)

I rarely even notice which of the dumb sub-forums to which a thread is posted. I can't wait for the Administration to fix this abomination.

Wait a minute here. You don't notice which forum things are posted in, and therefore can't identify which version they're referring to, and your solution is to merge the fora, thus eliminating even the indicator which you already miss?

~J

Posted by: Fortune Jan 9 2008, 05:25 PM

QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Jan 10 2008, 01:35 AM)

It was a slight exaggeration.

I take note of the actual forum when I notice the need. I can normally judge the edition referred to by the context of the post (everyone makes mistakes, but my track record speaks well enough). As to an 'indicator', I don't see any in existance on Dumpshock for SR1 or SR2. I wonder how people identify questions relating to these editions.

And yes, my solution, which as far as I know is the proposed future fix, is to merge both forums into one. There is no need for both, and they only serve to create confusion. But you know all of this, as we have discussed it before at length in the appropriate threads.

Posted by: ShaunClinton Jan 9 2008, 05:45 PM

Ha ha! Come on! What happens when one of the PCs sign up for cybermancy at Aztechnology's shiny Technotitlan facility.

"Sorry sir, I see you are a player character. You'll have to come down here to the Rating 6 medical equipment. What's that? Cybermancy needs rating 8 delta grade gear, oh don't be silly sir, you'll be fine."

I've never heard more nonsense come out of someones mouth than that.

As for this mythical +5 surgery modifier for deltaware as oppossed to betaware, the actual difference is +2 I'm fairly certain. I should add that I have no books in front of me just now, but am 99.99% sure that beta adds +3 to the TN and delta adds +5 to the TN. Meaning the difference between them is only +2, or one Essence reduction option. I suppose maybe there is a point to delta after all Mr. Trollman, aside from the already greater resistance to stress and concealability.

On the subject of augmentation, pretty much all I've ported so far is some geneware, one or two nanoware systems and the much more sensible rules for cyberzombies (playable and fearsome at last!!!) I was pretty disappointed overall with the cyberware and bioware sections, there hasn't really been any truly new and cool cyber/bio introduced since Cybertechnology came out in the mid-90's!!! Remember back when that teased the digestive replacement and the like that never materialised? Even then bioware hasn't really had a significant amount added since Shadowtech, the first SR supplement I ever laid my hands on (still one of the best). Annoyingly several items didn't even make it, including the Tac computer (which was smashed to pieces going from SR2 to 3 anyway).

Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 9 2008, 05:51 PM

my GM quickly agreed to the Cyberlimbs being more or less ported entirely to SR3 . .
and things like the hover feet and the gecko option and such things are pretty nifty too ^^

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 9 2008, 05:56 PM

QUOTE (Fortune @ Jan 9 2008, 12:25 PM)

As to an 'indicator', I don't see any in existance on Dumpshock for SR1 or SR2. I wonder how people identify questions relating to these editions.

By adding a lot of unnecessary text specifying which version they're talking about. Easily solved by adding specific fora for them (and no low traffic arguments from anyone, at least not until all of the so-called "Archived" fora other than the Duels forum go away (or read-only)).

QUOTE

And yes, my solution, which as far as I know is the proposed future fix, is to merge both forums into one. There is no need for both, and they only serve to create confusion. But you know all of this, as we have discussed it before at length in the appropriate threads.

I certainly don't know that there's no need for both! (I know the opposite)

But yes, with the appropriate qualifiers, you're absolutely correct that we're both fully aware of each others' positions and have discussed it at length. I offer the dissenting position for the audience more than to convince you

Posted by: FrankTrollman Jan 9 2008, 05:57 PM

QUOTE

As for this mythical +5 surgery modifier for deltaware as oppossed to betaware, the actual difference is +2 I'm fairly certain. I should add that I have no books in front of me just now, but am 99.99% sure that beta adds +3 to the TN and delta adds +5 to the TN. Meaning the difference between them is only +2, or one Essence reduction option.

No.

It's +3 for Beta. It's +6 for Delta.
And if you use tools of a better grade than needed to implant the grade you are implanting, you get a -2 bonus.

So using Delta Grade Tools to implant Betaware is +1 TN, using the same tools to implant Deltaware is +6.

You can look it up when you get home, but that is seriously what it says. I looked at it from a lot of different angles trying to find the best way to port it to SR4. Seriously the best way is to remove it. It's a bad subsystem.

-Frank

Posted by: ShaunClinton Jan 9 2008, 06:00 PM

The better surgical tools mod is one I forgot about, so I accept it.

However I still like the rules, despite their flaws. We'll keep using them whilst we use SR3 at least.

Posted by: Cochise Jan 9 2008, 11:02 PM

QUOTE (ShaunClinton)

However I still like the rules, despite their flaws. We'll keep using them whilst we use SR3 at least.

~hmmm~ Yeah I like them too ... particularly the part about all implants at a cost of 0.01 Essence per piece ... and the absolute need the make a house rule that deals with the contradictions and loopholes created by the wording.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 9 2008, 11:07 PM

biggest problem i have wit the old style M&M Medicine Rules is that there is close to no way to be really sure of how much essence something will cost you . . say i have 0,6 essence left and decide to get a smartlink(why ever it would not be allready in there with so much essence allready left) on standard installed . . usually 0,5 essence cost . . now some bad rolls later the whole thingie costs me about 0,7 essence and bam, dead character . .
--------------------------------------------
http://www.otakyasha.de/nsrcg.zip < = latest version of the NSRCG including german .dat files
http://de.geocities.com/nekekami_the_ghost/RC2SWF.swf < = RunCreator2, little tool for creating runs on the quick . . only in german sadly

Posted by: Fortune Jan 9 2008, 11:08 PM

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

... you're absolutely correct that we're both fully aware of each others' positions and have discussed it at length. I offer the dissenting position for the audience more than to convince you

Fair enough.

Posted by: Cochise Jan 9 2008, 11:11 PM

QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jan 10 2008, 01:07 AM)

Actually, for me that was the one and only good part about the rules: You could die on the operation table ... But then again ... I never meet a player who took Essence oder Bioindex Increase as one of the two negative options he had to take when the operation could lead to such a result.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 9 2008, 11:14 PM

well . . i usually use dice or throw of a coin for such things. . i figure if i have to rely on luck most of the time, i can take that little step too *g*
and in our shadowrun you can die EVERY TIME on the Table . . Essence 6 and you decide to get a Datajack? well, either you're taking someone in there to guard you or you have the probability of simply not waking up again . .
but as of right now, we're basically not using huge chunks of the rules . . not the medicine stuff, not the arsenal advanced close combat stuff, not the rigger and matrix stuff . . and we're working on using the full magic potential right now . . luckyly i am the combat machine twink and don't have to bother with that untill the GM's decide they want to use that stuff *g*
--------------------------------------------
http://www.otakyasha.de/nsrcg.zip < = latest version of the NSRCG including german .dat files
http://de.geocities.com/nekekami_the_ghost/RC2SWF.swf < = RunCreator2, little tool for creating runs on the quick . . only in german sadly

Posted by: tisoz Jan 20 2008, 10:48 AM

QUOTE (Cochise)

QUOTE (ShaunClinton @ Jan 9 2008, 08:00 PM)

However I still like the rules, despite their flaws. We'll keep using them whilst we use SR3 at least.

Wow, way to disregard the rules and my prior post showing how they put a cap on the problem at 6, or 8 if one wants to argue (houserule) availability. Even 8 Positive Options is only -40% Essence. Anything with a base essence cost over .82 cannot be reduced to .01 essence, hardly all implants. By the rules and a cap of 6, figure anything costing more than .62 essence to start.

Posted by: FrankTrollman Jan 20 2008, 01:52 PM

Actually with seven hits on an already difficult Ettiquette test you can find a Shadowclinic with medical gear rated at 14, which allows for 14 positive options (theoretically). You can't own medical gear with a rating greater than 6 for some reason, but you can have people operate on you with gear up to Rating 14, which is substantially more than you need for anything, ever.

-Frank

Posted by: Cochise Jan 21 2008, 08:19 PM

QUOTE (tisoz @ Jan 20 2008, 12:48 PM)

Little "corrections" there:

Deltaclinic has a initial rating of 8 ... Now look at p. 143 of M&M and find out that you can use extra successes on your search test to increase the rating of medical gear up to 6 points

=> the maximum rating a clinic can have is 14 which would translate in up to 14 positive options.

Now take a look at the maximum skill rating a random doctor can have in such a facility: 10 as a result of a 2d6 roll with a modifier of +4 due to delta grade clinic. You'd thus need an elven of twelve roll

=> The factual maximum is 10 positive option on the procedure list, when only having a "random" doctor. I'm not going to bother with the idea of having a PC-surgeon who might have a even higher skill rating or specialization for implant surgery (which would allow to go for -60% percent on betaware and "exploit" what has been said for installing betagrade implants in a delta clinic at reduced Tns).

Thus the maximum reduction that can be achieved is: -50% on our "random" doc.

O.k. so where's the next problem? Pretty simple: Is the reduction generated with surgery options additive to the essence reduction of the implant type or cumulative?

Example for a delta grade Move-by-Wire-IV:

Base Essence Cost: 7

Cumulative:

Base Cost*0.5 (delta)*0.5(10*Essence Reduction) = Base Cost * 0.25 = 1,75 in case of said MbW

Additive:

(-50% (delta) + -50% (10*Essence Reduction)) = -100% Essence reduction

Since minimum Implant Cost is fixed to 0.01 Essence as per page 45 M&M I just proved that in theory it is very well possible to get all implants at 0.01 per implant without disregarding any rule.

Now to the contradictions / loopholes that (might) require house ruling:

As per page 144 you make a surgical test against the TN of the procedure. This test is both a success test and an open test against Surgical Threshold. Going by just this wording, the TN for the sucess test could e.g. be 4 while the Threshold is 24 when actually having those 10 Essence Reductions on the surgery plan. The surgeon would then need 13 successes and his highest roll would have to be the 24 and then you'd have that 100% reduction on a delta implant.
Unfortunately the rules get inconsistant (even on page 144):

According to the explaination concerning the open test, the surgical options on the procedural list modify the Threshold "as options are reached", which would mean step by step during the procedure and only after you already made the particular option on the list come true. Now let's just pretend that our surgeon actually has those 13 successes and we only have to find out now what his results must be to have them:

1: Base TN of surgery test
2: Base TN of surgery test
3: Base TN of surgery test
4: Base TN of surgery test .. 1st positive option reached, increase threshold
5: Base TN of surgery + 2 .. 2nd positive option reached, increase threshold
6: Base TN of surgery + 4 .. 3rd positive option reached, increase threshold
7: Base TN of surgery + 6 .. 4th positive option reached, increase threshold
8: Base TN of surgery + 8 .. 5th positive option reached, increase threshold
9: Base TN of surgery + 10 .. 6th positive option reached, increase threshold
10: Base TN of surgery + 12 .. 7th positive option reached, increase threshold
11: Base TN of surgery + 14 .. 8th positive option reached, increase threshold
12: Base TN of surgery + 16 .. 9th positive option reached, increase threshold
14: Base TN of surgery + 18 .. 10th positive option reached

The threshold increase of the last step is irrelevant since there are no further options to achieve. Difference in TN is -2 on the highest value and suddenly the wording would require stepped successe not just the highest value which is still important for cases where you don't meet the highest roll number but have to try to figure out which options actually have successfully been reached.

So now you have to decide which mechanic actually is correct ... but that's not the point where it stops ...

Now take a look at page 148 under Surgical Options where it suddenly says that Positive options also list a threshold modifier, which increase the target number for the Surgery Test (see Surgucal Tests, p. 146).

"Oddly" enough the rule on page 146 deals only with the success test part of a Surgical Test => Suddenly the threshold modifiers also become TN modifiers on the success test => the TN of the example surgery now is 4 + 20 = 24 and it becomes even fuzzier how to deal with the open success test part, since that one would be obsolete.

All in all: These rules were just FUBARed and as small as the chances might be, those rules allow for a series of 0.01 Essence implants ... be it an retinal clock or a Move-By-Wire.