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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Sustaining Focus
Posted by: Riley37 Jan 9 2008, 06:51 AM
It's clear that mages can use Sustaining Focus for their own buffs.
What, if anything, stops the spell?
If the mage goes unconscious, or takes a nap?
I vaguely recall text in RAW limiting Adepts bonding foci other than Weapon Foci, but I can't find it.
Adept A bonds a F4 Sustaining Focus.
Mage B casts Increase Reflexes (at F4) on Adept A.
Can they use the Focus to sustain the spell?
Does the spell still have an astral link to Mage B, does it stop if he dies?
Can Adept A de-activate the focus (to use some other focus), then re-activate it and get the spell effects again?
Could an otherwise mundane person use a Knack to bond a weapon focus?
Posted by: Fortune Jan 9 2008, 07:11 AM
| QUOTE |
| It's clear that mages can use Sustaining Focus for their own buffs. What, if anything, stops the spell? |
Counterspelling. Wards.
| QUOTE |
| If the mage goes unconscious, or takes a nap? |
Nope! Still active.
| QUOTE |
| I vaguely recall text in RAW limiting Adepts bonding Foci other than Weapon Foci, but I can't find it. |
Adepts can Bond any Focus they can actually use. Typically this is pretty much limited to Weapon and Power Foci, and of course any applicable Metamagic Foci as well.
| QUOTE |
| Adept A bonds a F4 Sustaining Focus. Mage B casts Increase Reflexes (at F4) on Adept A. Can they use the Focus to sustain the spell? |
No! The Sustaining Foci must be Bonded to the casting Magician for it to be effective.
| QUOTE |
| Does the spell still have an astral link to Mage B, does it stop if he dies? |
Yes, it does have a Link because the Mage would be have the Bond with the Focus. I do not believe that a spell sustained via Foci ends with the expiry of the casting Mage.
| QUOTE |
| Can Adept A de-activate the focus (to use some other focus), then re-activate it and get the spell effects again? |
Nope! Note that this is true even of the Living Focus Power. The casting Magician is needed to reactive (recast) the spell.
| QUOTE |
| Could an otherwise mundane person use a Knack to bond a weapon focus? |
If an otherwise Mundane gained a Magic rating in any way (technically making him not Mundane), he could indeed Bond a Weapon Focus. He would be subject to the limitations on his actual Magic rating as normal.
Posted by: Gelare Jan 9 2008, 08:15 AM
| QUOTE (Fortune) | ||
Yes, it does have a Link because the Mage would be have the Bond with the Focus. I do not believe that a spell sustained via Foci ends with the expiry of the casting Mage. |
I believe that a spell sustained with a focus would end if the magician who casted the spell died. The focus was bonded to the magician, and once he's dead the focus isn't bonded to anyone anymore. And since unbonded foci clearly don't do much (or else people would, y'know, be using them for something) I would conclude that the bond needs to be active for the spell to keep being sustained, which means the magician has to still be alive.
That is, of course, mostly conjecture, but it sounds right to me.
Posted by: Riley37 Jan 9 2008, 08:57 AM
Alternate scenario: Susan the shaman bonds a Sustaining Focus (Detection) in the form of a ring, then casts Detect Soy and sustains it through that focus. As long as Susan wears the ring, she can detect soy. What if Joe takes the ring and spends Karma to bond it as his own Focus? Does Joe now have a Ring of Soy Detection? Or does the sustained spell get removed from the focus during the process of bonding to the new owner?
Posted by: Riley37 Jan 9 2008, 09:05 AM
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| Adepts can Bond any Focus they can actually use. Typically this is pretty much limited to Weapon and Power Foci, and of course any applicable Metamagic Foci as well. |
The only adept power I see in BBB which involves a Magic test, and thus the only one which can benefit from a Power Focus, is Attribute Boost. Or am I missing something?
Posted by: DTFarstar Jan 9 2008, 11:43 AM
Pretty sure the focus can only be bound to one individual at once and foci aren't like DnD Rings of Spell Storing... well Anchoring foci kinda are, but lets not go there... A spell is cast into the focus and the focus takes over the distracting activity of sustaining the spell. Instead of having to concentrate to maintain the shape of the mana you manipulated you pass it off to your sustaining foci. Kind of like if you blow up a balloon with an irregulaely shaped end. You can't tie it off to itself because of it's shape, but if you had an object of the perfect size and shape it could plug the open areas and you could tie it off around that object( Foci of appropriate force and category) Since this balloon is linked in a fundamental way to you, if you pass off the plugging object to someone else it can't go with it and if you don't start plugging the holes yourself it deflates and is of no use to anyone.
So... yeah, no you can't pass off spells like that. Quickened is what you are looking for.
Chris
Posted by: Ryu Jan 9 2008, 11:46 AM
A sustaining focus sustains a spell. It does not contain a spell. If the binding mage dies, a focus is unbound and can no longer do its function. If the caster gives away the focus, it is deactivated and the spell fades away. The caster does not even get the chance to change the target of the spell, unless that is allowed by the spell description. All a sustaining focus does is removing the -2 distraction penalty. Nothing else.
Posted by: Fortune Jan 9 2008, 02:15 PM
| QUOTE (Riley37 @ Jan 9 2008, 07:05 PM) |
| The only adept power I see in BBB which involves a Magic test, and thus the only one which can benefit from a Power Focus, is Attribute Boost. Or am I missing something? |
Motion Sense and Three-Dimentional Memory from Street Magic.
Posted by: Fortune Jan 9 2008, 02:17 PM
| QUOTE (Riley37) |
| Alternate scenario: Susan the shaman bonds a Sustaining Focus (Detection) in the form of a ring, then casts Detect Soy and sustains it through that focus. As long as Susan wears the ring, she can detect soy. What if Joe takes the ring and spends Karma to bond it as his own Focus? Does Joe now have a Ring of Soy Detection? Or does the sustained spell get removed from the focus during the process of bonding to the new owner? |
As DTFarstar said, a Focus can only be Bonded to one person at any particualr time. The act of Bonding the Focus 'cleanses' any previous ownership or sustained spell.
Posted by: Fortune Jan 9 2008, 02:20 PM
| QUOTE (Ryu @ Jan 9 2008, 09:46 PM) |
| If the binding mage dies, a focus is unbound and can no longer do its function. |
Do you have page references for that?
I understand the point you are making, but an argument could be made that the Mana is already set in motion, and the Focus will continue to sustain that Mana in that particular way until it is somehow stopped. Unconsciousness or sleeping does not break a Bond, or even stop a Focus-sustained spell, so it could be said that the Focus, being just a dumb magical construct, continues to do its job after the mage dies.
Posted by: Tarantula Jan 9 2008, 02:30 PM
Sure Fortune, 191. "The number of foci you can have active at one time is equal to your Logic." Since whatever it is that gave the mage's body a logic is gone (spirit, astral form, who knows) then the mage's body no longer has any mental stats, and thusly can't have any active foci.
Alternatively, I don't think the mage's body has a Magic rating either, which means that the magician can't have more foci bound than his magic rating.
Posted by: Nightwalker450 Jan 9 2008, 02:36 PM
This would be feasible though...
Adept power Living Focus (Street Magic, 1 Power Point)
Adept bonded to Sustaining Focus
Mage casts Spell upon Adept
Adept Sustains himself (Living Focus)
Adept shifts the sustaining to his Sustaining Focus
It costs you an adept power, but if you regularly work in tandem with a mage the mage might be very appreciative to have help with sustaining multiple spells.
Posted by: Fortune Jan 9 2008, 02:36 PM
@Tarantula: Reaching, but I guess that's good enough. 
Of course, Wards would be another matter. They wouldn't necessarily drop with the death of their creator, would they?
| QUOTE (Nightwalker450) |
| Adept power Living Focus (Street Magic, 1 Power Point) Adept bonded to Sustaining Focus Mage casts Spell upon Adept Adept Sustains himself (Living Focus) Adept shifts the sustaining to his Sustaining Focus |
An Adept cannot Bond the Sustaining Focus. Even if he could, he could not manipulate the spell in order to change how or in what manner it is sustained. He can't even change the parameters of the spell he is sustaining through the Living Focus Power.
Posted by: Tarantula Jan 9 2008, 03:01 PM
Indeed. Much as a mage can't cast a spell, bond a sustaining focus, and then put the spell in the focus. You cast the spell THROUGH the focus, and it goes in, not after the fact.
The adept could bond it, if he really wanted to waste his karma like that. But it would be of no use to him, since he can't cast a spell, and thusly, can't ever have his spell cast through his foci.
Wards: Right, they last for weeks determined upon creation. Creator death doesn't matter.
Posted by: Nightwalker450 Jan 9 2008, 03:37 PM
Ahh.. guess I had missed the cast through the focus. I was thinking it worked much like spirits sustaining something for you. At least I don't think you have to cast through them do you?
Posted by: Ryu Jan 9 2008, 03:49 PM
@Fortune: I admit the reasoning is reaching, but I indeed meant the second part Tarantula cited. No magic attribute = no bound focus, focus not bound = focus not useable.
@Nightwalker: You can even summon the spirit after you cast the spell, no problem. The length of those services often gurantees that you will get the spell back for sustaining...
Posted by: Sponge Jan 9 2008, 06:28 PM
| QUOTE (Riley37) |
| I vaguely recall text in RAW limiting Adepts bonding foci other than Weapon Foci, but I can't find it. |
I know I've read the same thing but I can't recall off the top of my head where exactly it is. The limitation is, they can't bond anything other than Weapon Foci.
Posted by: Fortune Jan 9 2008, 10:35 PM
| QUOTE (Sponge) |
| The limitation is, they can't bond anything other than Weapon Foci. |
Incorrect! Adepts can Bond any Focus they can actually use. Centering, Masking and Power Foci are all fair game (as long as the Adept can make use of the specific Focus).
Posted by: Tarantula Jan 9 2008, 11:22 PM
| QUOTE (Fortune @ Jan 9 2008, 04:35 PM) | ||
Incorrect! Adepts can Bond any Focus they can actually use. Centering, Masking and Power Foci are all fair game (as long as the Adept can make use of the specific Focus). |
Incorrect again! Adepts can Bond any Focus they want to, as long as they have the karma and the time. Just because its useless doesn't mean they can't bond it.
Posted by: Fortune Jan 9 2008, 11:26 PM
| QUOTE (Street Magic pg. 84) |
| As magical theory progresses, enchanting finds more advanced and specialized forms of foci for magicians to use. As with all types of foci, these may be bonded by any magician or mystic adept. |
I do not recall any piece of text that states that Adepts can Bond anything they please. Can you provide a quote?
Posted by: Sponge Jan 9 2008, 11:48 PM
| QUOTE (Tarantula) | ||||
Incorrect again! Adepts can Bond any Focus they want to, as long as they have the karma and the time. Just because its useless doesn't mean they can't bond it. |
Ah, I found the bit of text that I remembered reading. Of course it's not actually in the Magic chapter....
P85, in the Character Creation chapter, subsection "Foci":
"Adepts may only bond to weapon foci. Magicians and mystic adepts can bond to any type of focus."
It doesn't explicitly say this is only for starting characters (unlike other bits of text that specifically distinguish starting characters), but arguably that might have been the intent. (It also says "The total Force of all bonded foci is limited to five times the character's Magic attribute," which isn't mentioned anywhere else either.)
Sounds like one more for the errata, either way - it should either be spelled out in the Magic chapter if it applies to everyone, or more clearly say it's a limitation for new characters, in the Chargen chapter.
DS
Posted by: Fortune Jan 9 2008, 11:55 PM
| QUOTE (Sponge) |
| Ah, I found the bit of text that I remembered reading. Of course it's not actually in the Magic chapter.... P85, in the Character Creation chapter, subsection "Foci": "Adepts may only bond to weapon foci. Magicians and mystic adepts can bond to any type of focus." It doesn't explicitly say this is only for starting characters (unlike other bits of text that specifically distinguish starting characters), but arguably that might have been the intent. |
You're right. Definitely needs errata, being that the other Foci I listed are all eligible for Adept usage.
Although it doesn't mention that it is a limitation for chargen (only), the entire section has numerous references to chargen and BPs.
| QUOTE (SR4 pg. 85) |
| A starting Awakened character can begin the game with one or more foci already bonded. First, the character must purchase the focus with Gear nuyen. To bond a focus to the character, the player must then spend a number of BP equal to the focus’s Force. The total Force of all bonded foci is limited to five times the character’s Magic attribute. Adepts may only bond to weapon foci. Magicians and mystic adepts can bond to any type of focus. |
Posted by: Tarantula Jan 10 2008, 12:26 AM
Ugh. Then no, adepts can't bond a centering foci to aid their centering tests. So, adepts can only use weapon foci, ever. I hate that.
Also, it means any of the various knack type quality magicians can't ever bond any foci at all.
(Except for the astral sight one, which explicitly allows weapon foci to be bound)
Posted by: Fortune Jan 10 2008, 12:31 AM
Note the section, which is specifically for starting characters.
Knacks have always been a canon problem, because they break the rules in a number of ways.
Posted by: Tarantula Jan 10 2008, 03:13 AM
I agree that I think the sentence was placed in the wrong section. Though, if you want to go that strictly, then while the bonding rules are worded such that the "owner" can bond it (as long as they spend karma and participate in a magical ritual), which means really that anyone can bond a focus as long as they have the karma.
Though, specific foci limit the users. Spell foci explicitly state "empower a magician's Sorcery skills." Spirit foci state "empower a magician's Conjuring skills." While weapon foci state "add magical power to an Awakened character's melee attacks."
Thusly, while anyone can bond anything, only magicians can use spell or spirit foci, and anyone awakened can use weapon foci.
Posted by: Fortune Jan 10 2008, 04:55 AM
| QUOTE (Tarantula) |
| Thusly, while anyone can bond anything ... |
See, I don't think that is the case. I believe that a person must actually be able to utilize the type of Focus he is trying to Bond before he can successfully do so.
Posted by: Tarantula Jan 10 2008, 05:24 AM
| QUOTE (Fortune) | ||
See, I don't think that is the case. I believe that a person must actually be able to utilize the type of Focus he is trying to Bond before he can successfully do so. |
Ok, book quote?
Posted by: Fortune Jan 10 2008, 08:22 AM
I supplied an applicable one earlier ...
| QUOTE (Street Magic pg. 84) |
| As with all types of foci, these may be bonded by any magician or mystic adept. |
Note that Adepts are missing from the list of awakened people that can Bond all types of Foci
Posted by: Sponge Jan 10 2008, 04:15 PM
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| You're right. Definitely needs errata, being that the other Foci I listed are all eligible for Adept usage. |
I think I agree with your interpretation about the other foci. For the Centering and Masking foci, it's simply common sense that if an Adept can use those metamagics, they can use the foci. For the power focus, while it might not be especially efficient to use one, for the sake of completeness it doesn't make sense that a Mystic Adept could bond a Power Focus and get a bonus to Magic tests with their Adept powers, but an Adept could not.
On a tangent (and apologies for wandering off topic), I don't remember reading anything specific about how a Power Focus applies to Mystic Adepts. Does it improve both aspects of their Magic (magic skills and physical powers), or do they have to choose which aspect a Power Focus helps when bonding? I would assume the first one, but since it's not really spelled out I was wondering if there were any other opinions.
DS
Posted by: Fortune Jan 10 2008, 06:35 PM
A Power Focus doesn't actually add directly to the Magic Rating. When active, it applies its rating to any tests that involve the Magic Attribute itself.
Posted by: Tarantula Jan 10 2008, 07:06 PM
| QUOTE (Fortune) | ||
I supplied an applicable one earlier ...
Note that Adepts are missing from the list of awakened people that can Bond all types of Foci |
Yes, but thats only applicable to the advanced metamagic foci in street magic. The basic foci in SR4 only refer to bonding to their owner. With no requirements to be said owner.
Posted by: Fortune Jan 10 2008, 07:44 PM
I wonder what the words 'As with all types of foci' actually mean then.
Posted by: Sponge Jan 10 2008, 08:12 PM
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| A Power Focus doesn't actually add directly to the Magic Rating. When active, it applies its rating to any tests that involve the Magic Attribute itself. |
Yes I understand the distinction, but a Mystic Adept in many ways has two (three...) different Magic attribute ratings. As I said, I would assume the Power Focus applies to a test involving any aspect of the character's Magic (and in which case a Mystic Adept in effect gets more mileage out of a Power Focus than the other Awakened types), but I was curious if there were differing opinions.
Posted by: hyzmarca Jan 10 2008, 08:23 PM
| QUOTE (Riley37) |
| Alternate scenario: Susan the shaman bonds a Sustaining Focus (Detection) in the form of a ring, then casts Detect Soy and sustains it through that focus. As long as Susan wears the ring, she can detect soy. What if Joe takes the ring and spends Karma to bond it as his own Focus? Does Joe now have a Ring of Soy Detection? Or does the sustained spell get removed from the focus during the process of bonding to the new owner? |
The spell stops as soon as it leaves her finger.
A sustaining focus must remain in physical contact with the target of the spell at all times. If physical contact is broken for any reason then the spell is ended.
Posted by: Mr. Unpronounceable Jan 10 2008, 10:38 PM
Not contact with the target of the spell, that was sr3 and earlier. In sr4 the sustaining focus must remain in contact with the mage who bonded it (opening the question of what happens when the target of a spell your focus is sustaining is another person and they pass through a ward.)
Though yes, the spell would end as soon as the ring left her finger because the focus would deactivate.
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