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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Building Gear before the game starts
Posted by: Exodus Jan 9 2008, 10:32 PM
I've been looking in the book and I'm having a real hard time finding anything that says whether there is a discount for building an item at character creation. I 99.999999999% there was in 3rd edition, and I'd like to know if that came over to 4th edition and my search fu is failing me or if any of you have a house rule on it.
An example i have is that one of my players has the armorer skill, and would like to build his Ares Predator instead of buying it. Is there a discount I can give him for building the item instead of buying it?
Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 9 2008, 10:34 PM
as far as i know(which is about as far as i can throw a Daishi) there are no such rules . . instead of giving him discount i'd probably give him a +1DicePool Modifier when using that weapon
Posted by: Jaid Jan 9 2008, 11:05 PM
the amount of BP applied toward resources decides what resources you have. generally speaking, the precise method of obtaining those resources is not relevant (for example, a hacker may have obtained all of their programs 'free' by coding their own in their backstory, but they still pay resource BP for them).
personally, i would allow someone to begin play with the parts/etc to build something, but i wouldn't give them a discount for an already completed item.
Posted by: Karaden Jan 10 2008, 03:34 AM
I'm also fairly sure that there was not a rule about a discount for having the ability to build stuff (At least not in the basic books, maybe something obscure had it as optional)
Keep in mind that they are going to need really really advanced tools to create from scratch an actual working weapon (of SR quality). Keep in mind that computers can generally be bought in individual parts and built up, but you can't go out to a shop and buy a 'generic gun barrel, generic handle, etc' to build a gun from parts. You'd have to litterally shape pieces of metal into all the correct parts.
@Stahlseele: Personally, I'd -love- to get a +1 DP instead of half price on my stuff. I mean for the 300 
I'd save on a predator? I'd gladly trade 300 for +1 DP all day long.
Posted by: Nightwalker450 Jan 10 2008, 03:18 PM
How about Response and Signal Upgrades. Do you allow them to pay the "Build Hardware cost" since there is no price for the base components. Without the skill tests whats preventing everyone from building them as long as they're not Uneducated?
I think this is a rather large hole to fall into with building before hand, but if you want a commlink able to run higher than rating 4 programs what do you do?
Posted by: Exodus Jan 10 2008, 03:49 PM
| QUOTE (Karaden) |
| Keep in mind that they are going to need really really advanced tools to create from scratch an actual working weapon (of SR quality). Keep in mind that computers can generally be bought in individual parts and built up, but you can't go out to a shop and buy a 'generic gun barrel, generic handle, etc' to build a gun from parts. You'd have to litterally shape pieces of metal into all the correct parts. |
This Really depends on the gun. The M1911 A1 for example, you could easily all the parts you need for the gun on midwayusa.com or brownells.com. The only thing that needs to be done is some intermediate level machining. Grinding off some metal off the receiver to all the barrel to fit like you want it to, as well as drilling some holes to allow you to install a standard or non-standard grip.
I don't see why guns can't be like this in the future. Where all the parts are available for gunsmiths to create them.
Posted by: Carver Jan 10 2008, 03:55 PM
Whoops beaten...
Posted by: Riley37 Jan 10 2008, 04:54 PM
As a parallel: any mage can buy binding materials as part of chargen, and it's a good idea to have some handy because your talismonger might not always be open like Stuffer Shack. Having a bound spirit, though, is bought differently; you get a spirit of Force equal to your Magic, with one service per BP. (For 1BP, you can get ¥5000 worth of binding materials, equal to binding two Force 5 spirits; if you have the mojo to summon and bind a Force 5 spirit on your own, then buy the materials and do it yourself during play, and you'll probably get two spirits with more than one service each.)
If a player wanted their character to start with a wrecked car or motorcycle, and had the skills to fix it during play, I might let them buy the wreck at half the listed cost for a stock vehicle, partly to encourage characters to take non-combat skills. I might also add dramatic complications to the fixing process; anyone seen the 80s movie "My Bodyguard"? Anyways, the character had better also buy appropriate tools, or at least a workstation as per Augmentation.
Posted by: kzt Jan 10 2008, 05:01 PM
| QUOTE (Exodus) |
| I don't see why guns can't be like this in the future. Where all the parts are available for gunsmiths to create them. |
The requirement for only a FFL to transfers and sell receivers to non-licensed people is why.
You can buy all the parts other then the receiver, which you either have to buy from an FFL or make yourself (legally or illegally) or use on old pistol to build a new pistol.
Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jan 10 2008, 06:55 PM
| QUOTE (Jaid) |
| the amount of BP applied toward resources decides what resources you have. generally speaking, the precise method of obtaining those resources is not relevant (for example, a hacker may have obtained all of their programs 'free' by coding their own in their backstory, but they still pay resource BP for them). |
This is pretty much it.
However, I typically give players 1 month worth of progress on any build/repair/research tasks they want before they start. Typically this is plenty for them to get some important, minor tasks done without giving them any room for abuse.
Posted by: Karaden Jan 10 2008, 07:55 PM
| QUOTE (Nightwalker450) |
| How about Response and Signal Upgrades. Do you allow them to pay the "Build Hardware cost" since there is no price for the base components. Without the skill tests whats preventing everyone from building them as long as they're not Uneducated? I think this is a rather large hole to fall into with building before hand, but if you want a commlink able to run higher than rating 4 programs what do you do? |
That build hardware cost -is- the price for the base components. You can go out and buy a rating 6 signal and install it(or have it installed) in your commlink fairly easily for the price listed. To build it yourself costs half the value in parts (Assuming your buying several chips and putting them together into one big unit for responce and things like that)
Posted by: DireRadiant Jan 10 2008, 08:04 PM
Why should one PC get a break as opposed to others at Chargen?
1 BP resources = 5000 = A gun.
It doesn't say you went to S Mart and bought it. You could just as well have machined it from the ground up, stolen it, inherited it, or built it from pre fab parts.
Did the PC start on Tuesday pre chargen nekkid, and on the wednesday the ingame start date suddenly end up with 250,000 nuyen of cyberware, guns and computer gear over night?
All the gear represents a period of accumulation prior to the start of the game, you can explain it any way you like.
During the game you can quite reasonably allow for characters to use their skills to reduce costs and time to obtain or create gear. That's why they paid BP to buy skills and contacts, to help get things during the game.
Questions like this one alway strike me as point pimping favoritism kind of requests.
Posted by: Exodus Jan 10 2008, 08:35 PM
| QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Jan 10 2008, 04:04 PM) |
| Questions like this one alway strike me as point pimping favoritism kind of requests. |
Hardly sir, I am simply seeking to reward my players for taking build and repair skills. And I wasn't looking at a huge discount for the weapons, merely a minor reward like 5 or 10% discount depending on what the item was. In real life if I were to make a 1911, I would be able to make it because I've developed skills the skills that would allow me to lower the cost.. and that makes sense to me. Your using Build Points for the knowledge and know how, and your using build points for the parts.
Posted by: Fortune Jan 10 2008, 08:41 PM
The reward for taking thise Skills comes in-game.
As others have said, chargen is rather generic. While one character might describe his gear as personally hand-made (assuming he has the skills), another might depict theirs as being acquired on the black market, and a third could very well state that he liberated the stuff from his late great rival. It is all the same mechanically. Resources are not actual money, but rather what the character has access to/amassed in his career to date, regardless of source.
Here's a similar argument ...
Would you give the elven face a major discount on all of his gear at chargen because he used BP to buy mega social Skills?
Posted by: Exodus Jan 10 2008, 08:46 PM
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| The reward for taking thise Skills comes in-game. As others have said, chargen is rather generic. While one character might describe his gear as personally hand-made (assuming he has the skills), another might depict theirs as being acquired on the black market, and a third could very well state that he liberated the stuff from his late great rival. It is all the same mechanically. Resources are not actual money, but rather what the character has access to/amassed in his career to date, regardless of source. Here's a similar argument ... Would you give the elven face a major discount on all of his gear at chargen because he used BP to buy mega social Skills? |
I'd certainly consider it, if anybody can give me a decent reason to discount something I'm all about considering it.
Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jan 10 2008, 08:54 PM
| QUOTE (Exodus) |
| Hardly sir, I am simply seeking to reward my players for taking build and repair skills. |
I understand what you're going for, here (which is why I let my players have whatever their characters can build/repair in 1 month), but you really need to be rewarding them for using B/R skills, which happens in game, rather than rewarding them for taking B/R skills in chargen.
Posted by: Fortune Jan 10 2008, 09:41 PM
| QUOTE (Exodus) |
| I'd certainly consider it, if anybody can give me a decent reason to discount something I'm all about considering it. |
The point is that all that stuff is already considered to have taken place pre-game, prior to chargen. The benefits of high B/R skills (or high Social Skills) comes into play in-game, just as do the benefits of having high Vehicle, Weapon, Athletic, or even Artisan skills.
Posted by: Cain Jan 11 2008, 11:40 AM
I'll also add that there was no home-built discount in 3rd ed. What did exist was the option to home-build a deck or vehicle, using rules that could be bent into giving you a much better toy at a much lower cost.
If you want to reward them mechanically for a good backstory, then give them dicepool bonuses to repair their stuff when it gets broken in game.
Posted by: Ryu Jan 11 2008, 01:12 PM
| QUOTE (Moon-Hawk) | ||
I understand what you're going for, here (which is why I let my players have whatever their characters can build/repair in 1 month), but you really need to be rewarding them for using B/R skills, which happens in game, rather than rewarding them for taking B/R skills in chargen. |
Yes! Take note of that difference! I´m all for rewarding characters with complete skillsets, but don´t create a new sandbox for min/maxing. As wrong as it sounds, reward them by giving them broken equipment. THAT you can do at chargen, too. A used-equipment quality with some chance of breakdown hits all characters equally, but those with appropiate repair skills can cope better. The same gear for different prices causes trouble, always. See software costs.
Posted by: Nightwalker450 Jan 11 2008, 03:36 PM
| QUOTE (Karaden) |
| That build hardware cost -is- the price for the base components. You can go out and buy a rating 6 signal and install it(or have it installed) in your commlink fairly easily for the price listed. To build it yourself costs half the value in parts (Assuming your buying several chips and putting them together into one big unit for responce and things like that) |
Where does it list prices for Base components? All I've ever found listed are the prices to "build it yourself". Or do you just go on the assumption that base components are twice the price of the "build it yourself" ones? I'm just wondering what it is you allow a Matrix Specialist to get at Char Gen, and how they pay for it (Hardware Skill Build, or Nuyen for prebuilt Components)
Posted by: Ryu Jan 11 2008, 08:27 PM
Parts cost generally 50% of the full items costs. I´d allow you do buy parts for everything at chargen, but you would need to do the assembly in game, requiring appropiate tools.
It was said before - what you start with is balanced by your ressource points. I would see good build-repair skills as good justification for higher ressources, but you get to pay full price. That background skill is worth money in game however, the less paying the campaign is, the more important the advantage becomes.
And if you want to see the players consider B/R skills, you have to provide incentives ingame. Have equipment break at unfortunate time. Cause collateral damage to their gear. Then describe the pristine condition of a freshly bought sniper rifle, the "new" smell of the transport box. They only feel about the quality of their gear if the GM brings it into the game (some exceptions, but still).
Posted by: Sponge Jan 11 2008, 09:04 PM
Look at it this way - time spent pre-game building stuff yourself is time spent pre-game NOT earning the other half of what the item would have cost off the shelf....
Posted by: Fortune Jan 11 2008, 09:09 PM
| QUOTE (Sponge) |
| Look at it this way - time spent pre-game building stuff yourself is time spent pre-game NOT earning the other half of what the item would have cost off the shelf.... |
Sure, so you just describe it as being personally built, and then pay full price just like everyone else.
Posted by: Ddays Jan 11 2008, 10:26 PM
Yeah, same reason Trolls get to pay regular price for gear at chargen but then have to pay extra in game.
Chargen balance is different from ingame balance.
Posted by: DireRadiant Jan 11 2008, 10:33 PM
| QUOTE (Exodus) | ||
I'd certainly consider it, if anybody can give me a decent reason to discount something I'm all about considering it. |
If you want to reward, in your opinion, well built characters, then simply do so. It's your game you can do what you want. Having a character get a couple thousand extra nuyen at chargen because they made you happy is no big deal.
When I do this, I don't disguise it as a mechanical reward based on some house rule. I simply say, "Hey that was cool, have this."
Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 11 2008, 10:45 PM
| QUOTE |
| Yeah, same reason Trolls get to pay regular price for gear at chargen but then have to pay extra in game. |
wait what? o.O did they change that from SR3 to 4 or have i been doing that wrong all the time?
Posted by: Exodus Jan 11 2008, 10:58 PM
| QUOTE (Stahlseele) | ||
wait what? o.O did they change that from SR3 to 4 or have i been doing that wrong all the time? |
| QUOTE (pg. 301 in BBB first paragraph on page) |
| (As a rule, we suggest that metatype modification costs not be incurred for any gear purchased during character creation.) |
Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 11 2008, 11:09 PM
*writes that one down for further examination*
as an aside . . i'd probably let people who built their own stuff put in some fancy extras . . like making a panther cannon come in pump action for example *g*
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