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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Cybered athlete being banned from play
Posted by: apollo124 Jan 14 2008, 01:53 PM
Yeah, I know it ain't technically cyber, but it still hits close to the mark.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,322486,00.html
Posted by: Zen Shooter01 Jan 14 2008, 02:56 PM
The historic issue here is that after testing the running blades, Dr. Gert-Peter Brueggemann determined that they gave Pistorius an advantage of over thirty percent at sprinting.
He's saying that the artificial limb performs better than the natural limb.
Posted by: Dashifen Jan 14 2008, 03:11 PM
Does it surprise you that engineering can produce better than that which biology does? I, for one, welcome our new cyberzombie overlords ....
Posted by: apollo124 Jan 14 2008, 03:54 PM
We have the technology. We can rebuild him. Stronger. Faster. ..."
Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 14 2008, 03:57 PM
*grabs apollo and shakes him* WHERE IS THAT QUOTE FROM?
Posted by: Dashifen Jan 14 2008, 04:35 PM
| QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jan 14 2008, 10:57 AM) |
| *grabs apollo and shakes him* WHERE IS THAT QUOTE FROM? |
It's from the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Six_Million_Dollar_Man 70's TV show.
Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 14 2008, 05:28 PM
FINALLY somebody who is able to answer me that friggin question <.< . .
Posted by: hyzmarca Jan 14 2008, 05:36 PM
What he should do is buy a front row ticket to the Olympics right by the starting line. And then, when the race starts, he should just jump onto the track and start running. They might not win a medal, but it isn't about medals, it's about humiliating all of the able-bodied athletes on international television.
Posted by: knasser Jan 14 2008, 06:32 PM
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| What he should do is buy a front row ticket to the Olympics right by the starting line. And then, when the race starts, he should just jump onto the track and start running. They might not win a medal, but it isn't about medals, it's about humiliating all of the able-bodied athletes on international television. |
That's a great idea....
...of course I'll be in the next lane over on a motorbike.
Posted by: kzt Jan 14 2008, 06:38 PM
This is in Beijing. I think they just shoot people who try to smuggle motorbikes into these events....
Posted by: pbangarth Jan 14 2008, 06:49 PM
The argument as I understand it is that this technology gives the 'handicapped' runner an unfair advantage, and that the Olympics are about athlete vs. athlete, not technology vs. technology.
Which, of course, is bunk. When every biker gets to use the same $50,000 racer as the Americans, Canadians, etc., then technology is no longer a factor. When every country has the same sports schools as the Germans, Russians, etc., then technology is not a part of the equation. Until then, the Olympic system is designed to reward the rich countries that can afford to maintain professional-grade 'amateurs', and maintain a hegemonic ideology that says we are all the same.
This guy's artificial legs are no different from aerodynamic bicycles and state-of-the-art training facilities. Except for the fact that the Olympic movement can't maintain the communal lie in the presence of technology as obvious as that at the end of his legs.
Posted by: hyzmarca Jan 14 2008, 07:15 PM
So the Olympics are an insidious front for The Red Menace which serves only to corrupt and undermine our capitalist ideologies in preparation for the global proletariat revolution?
Posted by: Fortune Jan 14 2008, 07:49 PM
| QUOTE (Stahlseele) |
| FINALLY somebody who is able to answer me that friggin question <.< . . |
You should have asked sooner.
Posted by: Fortune Jan 14 2008, 07:51 PM
Damn those Kenyan long distance runners and their state-of-the-art training facilities.
Posted by: Eurotroll Jan 14 2008, 07:58 PM
| QUOTE (Zen Shooter01 @ Jan 14 2008, 09:56 AM) |
| The historic issue here is that after testing the running blades, Dr. Gert-Peter Brueggemann determined that they gave Pistorius an advantage of over thirty percent at sprinting. He's saying that the artificial limb performs better than the natural limb. |
Advantage of thirty percent in what? Never throw around percentages without the context that they belong into. In this case, it's a thirty percent advantage in energy costs, ie, the athlete can run and/or sprint with (significantly, as it turns out) less effort than a normal person. Not very surprising, considering his limbs have been engineered to work as running limbs first and foremost (with the side effect that it is essentially impossible to stand still while wearing them -- he'd topple over).
Posted by: Zen Shooter01 Jan 14 2008, 08:15 PM
Yes, I understand that they perform better in one limited application. But it's better than earlier models. What will next year's model be like?
The history of prosthetics until now has been of artificial limbs that were inferior to the natural in just about every way.
Posted by: hyzmarca Jan 14 2008, 08:23 PM
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| Damn those Kenyan long distance runners and their state-of-the-art training facilities. |
Kenya doesn't need state-of-the-art training facilities; they have state-of-the-art tall skinny black guys. Tall skinny black guys have an unfair mechanical advantage over other runners.
The US's with our SOTA training facilities, excell in women's gymnastics, in which 12-year-olds who look like 9-year-olds perform absurdly dangerous artistic routines on SOTA equipment.
Posted by: DireRadiant Jan 14 2008, 08:43 PM
| QUOTE (Stahlseele) |
| FINALLY somebody who is ancient enough to answer me that friggin question <.< . . |
More likely.
Posted by: Ravor Jan 14 2008, 08:45 PM
Ouch, now I feel even older since I knew the answer...
Posted by: Fortune Jan 14 2008, 08:50 PM
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| Kenya doesn't need state-of-the-art training facilities; they have state-of-the-art tall skinny black guys. Tall skinny black guys have an unfair mechanical advantage over other runners. |
Exceptional height is not all that big of a deal in distance running, although it is of great advantage in sprinting. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/athletics/get_involved/4253508.stm (one of many)
In fact, one of, if not the world's greatest distance runners (incidentally from Kenya), is well below average height, at approximately 5'4" (160-164cm, depending on source).
Posted by: hyzmarca Jan 14 2008, 08:53 PM
| QUOTE (Fortune) | ||
Exceptional height is not all that big of a deal in distance running, although it is of great advantage in sprinting. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/athletics/get_involved/4253508.stm (one of many) In fact, one of, if not the world's greatest distance runners (incidentally from Kenya), is well below average height, at approximately 5'4" (160-164cm, depending on source). |
Is he black and skinny?
Posted by: Fortune Jan 14 2008, 08:53 PM
| QUOTE (Ravor) |
| Ouch, now I feel even older since I knew the answer... |
I was quite surprised by the question, and am extremely curious as to who else (other than Stahlseele) didn't know the answer.
Posted by: Fortune Jan 14 2008, 08:55 PM
| QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Jan 15 2008, 06:53 AM) |
| Is he black and skinny? |
Sure is, but he isn't tall, so doesn't fit your 'unfair mechanical advantage' criteria.
Oops ... I just realized that I didn't actually name the athlete to whom I was referring. Mea culpa. The runner is, of course, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haile_Gebrselassie.
Posted by: hyzmarca Jan 14 2008, 09:40 PM
| QUOTE (Fortune @ Jan 14 2008, 03:55 PM) | ||
Sure is, but he isn't tall, so doesn't fit your 'unfair mechanical advantage' criteria. |
Black and skinny are both mechanical advantages.
Posted by: DTFarstar Jan 14 2008, 09:45 PM
I'm 23 and I knew where that quote came from. You don't need to feel too old.
Chris
Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 14 2008, 09:56 PM
oh, i actually know the series/films(who DOESN'T?) . . i just seem to have missed the part with the Quote again and again O.o
Posted by: Jaid Jan 14 2008, 10:48 PM
| QUOTE (Stahlseele) |
| oh, i actually know the series/films(who DOESN'T?) . . i just seem to have missed the part with the Quote again and again O.o |
isn't that in the opening credits or something? i mean, i always just assumed it was actually kinda like how at the start of A-Team they'd talk about how the A-Team came to exist.
Posted by: Eurotroll Jan 14 2008, 11:09 PM
Chalk it up to dubs dropping the intro narrations on nearly all 80s shows, leaving us AGS-based people somewhat deficient in the pop-cultural reference department unless we somehow happened upon them at a later date.
Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 14 2008, 11:30 PM
yeah, kinda like that . . as far as i found out, that phrase is used exactly ONCE in the whole slwe of movies/episodes aired over here . . namely the one where they decide to fix him up . .
Posted by: PBTHHHHT Jan 14 2008, 11:47 PM
| QUOTE (Stahlseele) |
| yeah, kinda like that . . as far as i found out, that phrase is used exactly ONCE in the whole slwe of movies/episodes aired over here . . namely the one where they decide to fix him up . . |
You still made us feel old when you asked the question... *sob*
relating to the topic kinda in regards to the kenyan runners:
I think they did mention another advantage for the kenyan runners is the altitude that they live when they come down to our altitudes they have an advantage in running. There was also an analysis on the folks living in the Andean mountains, but the natives lived so high that their blood flow became a detriment, too much of a good thing scenario. I don't know where I heard this from, it was years ago from some bio class or article. eh.
Posted by: Jhaiisiin Jan 15 2008, 12:02 AM
It's actually true. Working out and practicing at higher altitudes makes you more capable (generally) when dropping to a lower altitude. Your body is so used to working with less oxygen that when you get closer to sea level where there's more oxygen, your body gets all manner of happy and is able to perform beyond where it normally does.
IRL I live at about 5300 ft above sea level. I've gone to locations near sea level in Texas and Georgia and such and been much better at running and doing any other physical activities without issue.
The reverse is also true. Train for your whole life in a low-level environment then come up where I live and try to run. Fast ticket to exhaustion, I've heard. I know it's that way when I climb the mountain right next to where I live. 10k feet in height is all manner of hard to breath (moreso if you're out of shape, that's for sure).
Posted by: Riley37 Jan 15 2008, 12:03 AM
A Google search for the phrase ""we can rebuild him" yields references to the TV show in responses #1 through #4. Stahseele, if you've ever run an SR4 character who used the Browse program for the Data Search action, perhaps you might try the same in real life.
Not only do I know lines from TV shows from the 1970s, I also know lines from English plays in the 1600s, and a few lines from the Aeneid; does that make me really old?
Anyways, the idea that the Olympics reward turning people into single-purpose machines was attributed to Alexander the Great in one of Mary Renault's books; this guy takes that a step further.
Here's a question: at what point of artificial-limb functionality will a few people voluntarily choose to cut off their ordinary, fully functional legs, in order to replace them? If this guy gets to race in the Olympics, will others choose to get leg replacements?
I feel reluctant to have my legs cut off and replaced. I would consider trading my current myopic eyes for implanted techno-eyes with 20/20 vision, IR vision and a recorder, but it would still take overcoming a LOT of reluctance.
Posted by: Ravor Jan 15 2008, 12:09 AM
I'll chop off my left leg the moment that I can do so without losing any functions, most importantly the ability to feel.
*Edit*
But I'd never enter a race... 
Posted by: Jhaiisiin Jan 15 2008, 12:34 AM
I'd opt for major re-work on my back, if given the option. Post surgery pains would be better than the typical back pain I deal with. Maybe some low-level muscle replacement or tailored bioware muscle therapy or something would work for me.
Maybe even replace my lower arms so I never get tendonitis or carpal tunnel again. 
Posted by: hyzmarca Jan 15 2008, 12:42 AM
| QUOTE (Riley37) |
| Here's a question: at what point of artificial-limb functionality will a few people voluntarily choose to cut off their ordinary, fully functional legs, in order to replace them? If this guy gets to race in the Olympics, will others choose to get leg replacements? |
That point has done passed. There is actually some controversy about elective amputations. Most hospitals won't perform them, so people who want amputations resort to messy and dangerous home medical practice with such implements as chainsaws and shotguns, often killing themselves in the process.
Of course, such individuals aren't trying to enhance athletic performance. They simply don't want their limbs.
Posted by: Fortune Jan 15 2008, 12:44 AM
| QUOTE (Stahlseele) |
| yeah, kinda like that . . as far as i found out, that phrase is used exactly ONCE in the whole slwe of movies/episodes aired over here . . namely the one where they decide to fix him up . . |
Once every episode.
Posted by: Fortune Jan 15 2008, 12:45 AM
| QUOTE (PBTHHHHT) |
| I think they did mention another advantage for the kenyan runners is the altitude that they live when they come down to our altitudes they have an advantage in running. |
Sure, but that's neither an unfair mechanical advantage nor a state-of-the-art training facility, which was my point.
Posted by: pbangarth Jan 15 2008, 01:52 AM
In reference the example of the decidedly techno-disadvantaged Kenyans, two points come to mind.
1)
The Kenyans, without any mechanical help, have advantages from their cultural history, genetics and their environment (the last two are directly related). Without technical / financial help, other nations may never produce someone to beat them. That's the way the Olympics were meant to work, even if it meant that Kenyans would be renowned throughout time as master long-distance runners. In the U.S., Apaches were similarly renowned for running, for similar reasons.
Other nations/groups throw money at the problem to simulate Kenyan conditions (or simply go to a place like Kenya), or to find other advantages to offset the natural ones.
2)
Kenya produces good endurance athletes, primarily runners. Nations with mega-bucks to spend on equipment and training facilities and techniques win gold in track/swimming/skiiing/throwing/wrestling/jumping/boxing/.....etc., etc., etc., without any regard to natural advantages of their region. This often appears in the form of equipment or access to training facilities that others cannot hope to have.
The Olympics reward this behaviour with medals and prestige, which is why they spend the money in the first place.
Posted by: apollo124 Jan 15 2008, 05:51 AM
Sorry I didn't answer your question, Stahlseele, but I went to work just after I posted it. I just figured everyone knew it, I hadn't counted on our Euro pals missing out.
As far as elective limb replacement, that isn't my cup of tea. Hell, I can't even use eyedrops, and forget about contact lenses. I can't deal with anything messing with my eyes. Now, if they want to talk about "beer belly removal", well, I could go for that.
Posted by: tisoz Jan 15 2008, 07:34 AM
| QUOTE (Jhaiisiin) |
| I'd opt for major re-work on my back, if given the option. Post surgery pains would be better than the typical back pain I deal with. Maybe some low-level muscle replacement or tailored bioware muscle therapy or something would work for me. |
Have you tried chiropractic? I was having continual back pain, so bad it hurt unless I was laying down and staying still. The situation progressed so that I needed an excuse from a medical authority for work. I noticed the medical authority included chiropractors. Everything I had ever heard about them was that it was quackery, but if I got the excuse I could care less.
Long story short - it actually relieved my pain. I was pissed that the medical doctors I had seen for the problem did not suggest the chiropractor. I learned that the SOP for doing my job was about the worst things a person could do to their back. I learned a few other things, too.
When I first scheduled an appointment, they asked about things totally unrelated to my back, like digestive problems for example. Every time I went in for an adjustment and a various therapy (I must admit the therapy did not seem to work for me, but I may have discontinued it too quick), they would ask about any problems or pain. I usually blew it off, thinking how is cracking my neck going to cure constipation, but one day I mentioned my thumb was sore. I would get similar pain a couple times a week and it seemed to me to be fatigue related. But the chiropractor felt along my elbow and shoulder, then popped something (it has been a long time so I do not remember exactly.) No more pain. After that, I told them about every little thing.
That crap job, and its phased out health coverage are long gone. If I ever could afford to go to a chiropractor on a regular basis, I would find one that worked for me and visit as often as possible. If someone had told me the pain I endured for years could be gone, I would have jumped on the chiropractic bandwagon long before I did.
Posted by: tisoz Jan 15 2008, 07:42 AM
| QUOTE (Stahlseele) |
| *grabs apollo and shakes him* WHERE IS THAT QUOTE FROM? |
Shadowtech, page 36.
| QUOTE (Oscar Goldman - "The Six Million Dollar Man") |
| Gentleman, we can rebuild him. We have the technology. Better. Stronger. Faster. |
Posted by: tisoz Jan 15 2008, 07:46 AM
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| Damn those Kenyan long distance runners and their state-of-the-art training facilities. |
You bet!
It would cost big time to reconstruct the environment, especially when adding the lions and cheetahs that provide adequate motivation.
Posted by: Fortune Jan 15 2008, 07:49 AM
But that quote is not quite correct. It should read ...
| QUOTE (Oscar Goldman - "The Six Million Dollar Man") |
| Gentleman, we can rebuild him. We have the technology. We have the capability to build the world’s first bionic man. Steve Austin will be that man, better than he was before. Better, stronger, faster. |
Posted by: Jhaiisiin Jan 15 2008, 07:55 AM
| QUOTE ("") |
| Have you tried chiropractic? |
Yep. Every time I've seen a chiropractor, they've actually hurt me (and not the good "Ow!... wait, that feels better" kinda way). I have however had a decent amount of success with a massage therapist I used to use. I've not gone back in a long time though, partly due to finances, partly because I tend to fill up my schedules.
It's livable, and only sometimes causes me problems functioning. I know it could be a *lot* worse, so I'm thankful that it isn't. Come to think of it, I should have money enough to set up more sessions again soon, so maybe I can go back to having a painless time for awhile again. We'll see how life likes that idea, huh? Hehe
Posted by: apollo124 Jan 16 2008, 06:55 AM
| QUOTE (Fortune) | ||
But that quote is not quite correct. It should read ...
|
I have to admit here, I never actually saw the first episode, just the snippets at the beginning of the credits. And it's probably been a good 20 years since I've even seen that. The Bigfoot episode was great though.
Posted by: Fortune Jan 16 2008, 07:07 AM
| QUOTE (apollo124) |
| The Bigfoot episode was great though. |
Funnily enough, although it's been forever since I saw an episode of Six Million Dollar Man, that specific episode is always the one that sticks in my mind as well.
Posted by: apollo124 Jan 17 2008, 06:51 AM
Well, Bigfoot was a big deal back then. It seems to have mostly faded by now though. Besides, other than another bionic person, what else actually was a challenge for him?
Posted by: Method Jan 17 2008, 07:18 AM
| QUOTE (PBTHHHHT @ Jan 14 2008, 04:47 PM) |
| There was also an analysis on the folks living in the Andean mountains, but the natives lived so high that their blood flow became a detriment, too much of a good thing scenario. I don't know where I heard this from, it was years ago from some bio class or article. eh. |
You are correct.
Its call Chronic Altitude Illness (very creative, right?). It has to do with a phenomenon called diffusion limitation which basically means that the blood is moving through the capillaries in your lungs so fast that your RBCs don't have enough time to fully load up on oxygen (since the atmospheric O2 level is so low). In response people actually produce so many red blood cells that their blood gets too thick.
Posted by: Demerzel Jan 17 2008, 05:23 PM
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) | ||
That point has done passed. There is actually some controversy about elective amputations. Most hospitals won't perform them, so people who want amputations resort to messy and dangerous home medical practice with such implements as chainsaws and shotguns, often killing themselves in the process. Of course, such individuals aren't trying to enhance athletic performance. They simply don't want their limbs. |
I'm pretty curious, can you cite a source for this?
Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jan 17 2008, 05:34 PM
| QUOTE (Demerzel) | ||||
I'm pretty curious, can you cite a source for this? |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_Integrity_Identity_Disorder
Posted by: G.NOME Jan 17 2008, 05:48 PM
Light-framed people make better distance runners. It's a straight http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/27/health/nutrition/27Best.html, and has nothing to do with your skin color.
Anyway, you think Kid Stealth, I mean, prosthetic legs are impressive? I wonder how long it will be until the Olympics are going to pass a ruling http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/38
Posted by: Demerzel Jan 17 2008, 07:23 PM
| QUOTE (Moon-Hawk) | ||||||
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_Integrity_Identity_Disorder |
That article seems to not include why that point is passed.
| QUOTE |
That point has done passed. |
Somehow BIID makes elective amputation a closed subject? I don't understand.
Posted by: Method Jan 17 2008, 07:39 PM
I think he is saying that we have already reached the point where elective amputation has entered into our social consciousness because there are already people who are willing to do it.
It should be noted however that apotemnophiliacs (people with BIID) don't want their limb to be replaced with a more functional prosthesis. The whole point is they feel like they should be amputees, so its not really the same thing. It will be different when rational people without any mental illness (as I believe apotemnophilia is) willingly choose to undergo amputation to gain the benefits of an improved cybernet limb.
And interestingly enough, one of the main activists for BIID is a psychoanalyst named Gregg Furth who is also an apotemnophiliac. He and Robert Smith (a Scottish surgeon who actually performed a few of these amputations before the NHS shut him down) wrote a book about it.
Oh, and if you're still curious Demerzel there is an interesting http://archive.salon.com/health/feature/2000/08/29/amputation/index.html about it.
Posted by: hyzmarca Jan 17 2008, 07:42 PM
| QUOTE (Demerzel) | ||||||||||
That article seems to not include why that point is passed.
Somehow BIID makes elective amputation a closed subject? I don't understand. |
Because people are already getting elective amputations. Thus, the question of when people will begin to have elective amputations has already been answered; it was some time ago.
Posted by: Demerzel Jan 17 2008, 07:46 PM
It happened out of this context however, so the issue of when will people start elective amputations in favor of atrificial limbs for an advantage in sports isn't answered by BIID.
Posted by: Mongoose Jan 18 2008, 06:04 AM
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| Damn those Kenyan long distance runners and their state-of-the-art training facilities. |
LOL. But you do have to wonder why you don't see those same guys dominating the long distance bike races. They clearly have the aerobic capacity to do so.
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