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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ On the subject of freaks
Posted by: JonathanC Jan 15 2008, 07:29 AM
I just picked up Augmentation the other day, and the proliferation of options that are, shall we say...flamboyant (balance tails, surgery to get alien/animal features, extra cybereyes, horns, fangs, etc.) got me thinking. Usually, my games are full of non-descript people dressed in black trenchcoats, who probably own ski-masks. The most stylish I can hope for is a bunch of people who look like they wandered out of the Matrix (the movie, not the global network).
Would it really be so bad to have a decker with decorative horns? I mean, assuming that they aren't trying to pass in a corporate boardroom, would they really be shunned that much in a modern sprawl like Seattle or L.A?
Or what about someone who had cybereyes installed in an odd place? Like an extra pair set in their forehead? It almost makes more sense to add extra eyes rather than rip out your own, perfectly working eyeballs, after all. And you could cover them up with a hat or headband if you needed to "pass". I suppose you might need a cyberskull in order to add extra eyes though...any opinions on this?
What would someone have to do to get a more combat-oriented tail? Like some kind of bladed thing that they could use to cover themselves from behind in a melee? It's (more than) a little silly, but as a GM, I think I'd be inclined to allow it just to avoid seeing yet another cookie-cutter street sam. I realize that personality counts much more than appearance with good roleplayers, but when I look at the covers of the old books, and even some of the new ones, I see mohawked kids with nano-tats, not Leon the Professional.
There are so many weird, exotic options now (symbiotes, extra glands, etc.), have there been any good, practical builds using them? I'm throwing out some (admittedly dubious) ideas, but I'd love to hear about good, well-optimized weirdo builds too.
Posted by: Cardul Jan 15 2008, 08:53 AM
Admittedly I like Fiber-optic Hair combined with that face changing bioware. You have your hair set to one colour on a run, inject the stuff for the face change..Voila..you have 30 minutes to get in, get out, and your face not be that recognizeable. Combined with that thing that makes any cells that fall off you turn non-usable for DNA analysis..and you have made it just a step harder for people to track you down.
Posted by: Seven-7 Jan 15 2008, 10:07 AM
Hatchetman would tell you that this is silly and unprofessional and that you're being very very bad >:(
Posted by: Cardul Jan 15 2008, 11:24 AM
| QUOTE (Seven-7) |
| Hatchetman would tell you that this is silly and unprofessional and that you're being very very bad >:( |
Yeah...and Hatchetman got killed...so..If I am alive, that kind of makes my method better then his?
Posted by: hyzmarca Jan 15 2008, 11:36 AM
| QUOTE (Cardul) | ||
Yeah...and Hatchetman got killed...so..If I am alive, that kind of makes my method better then his? |
Hatchetman didn't get killed. He became a cyberzombie. If he is dead (and that is almost certain) he died died of medical complications related to having subzero essence.
Posted by: Fortune Jan 15 2008, 11:40 AM
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| If he is dead (and that is almost certain) he died died of medical complications related to having subzero essence. |
Or he was killed while 'on the job' for his 'sponsors', which is just as likely.
Posted by: Cardul Jan 15 2008, 11:41 AM
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) | ||||
Hatchetman didn't get killed. He became a cyberzombie. If he is dead (and that is almost certain) he died died of medical complications related to having subzero essence. |
Augmentation disagrees with you there...it says he was killed by a Cyberzombie.
Posted by: Fortune Jan 15 2008, 11:42 AM
| QUOTE (Cardul @ Jan 15 2008, 09:41 PM) |
| Augmentation disagrees with you there...it says he was killed by a Cyberzombie. |
Can you give us either a quote or page reference? This is the only mention I can find of Hatchetman (other than in the Credits) in Augmentation ...
| QUOTE (Augmentation pg. 143) |
| It is about this time of year when I get myself a liter of cherry flavored tequila, think of my old friend Hatchetman, and shudder. It seems like an appropriate time to bring people up to speed on cybermancy. |
Posted by: Ryu Jan 15 2008, 12:32 PM
You forgot dermal sheath 3 with ruthenium option for skin colour.
Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 15 2008, 01:34 PM
| QUOTE (Fortune) | ||||
Can you give us either a quote or page reference? This is the only mention I can find of Hatchetman (other than in the Credits) in Augmentation ...
|
could just as easyly mean that he wants to warn other people of the danger those things pose because one of those things has killed his buddy i'd say O.o
Posted by: hyzmarca Jan 15 2008, 01:47 PM
| QUOTE (Stahlseele) | ||||||
could just as easyly mean that he wants to warn other people of the danger those things pose because one of those things has killed his buddy i'd say O.o |
It doesn't.
| QUOTE (Cybertechnology p.60) |
| This is the file I've been waiting for, though it took longer than I expected. I suppose it was foolish of me to think that it would turn up as quick as I'd hoped. How long does it take to recover from cybersurgery as extensive as Hatchetman must have undergone? |
The file mentioned is a detailed and disturbing journal made by Hatchman as he was recovering from Cybermancy. He's been a cyberzombie since SR2.
Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 15 2008, 01:52 PM
aaaah . . yes, i remember now . . i thought you guys were talking about augmentation somehow @.@
Posted by: Synner Jan 15 2008, 02:01 PM
In Shadowrun cosmetic mods, tattoos, and other forms of body modification are described as quite common in everyday (urban) society. Body modification is popular and trendy, and seen as a form of self-expression even more so than today. There's even a thriving cyberfetish underground and are booming markets for cybermods, biocosmetics, and nanotatts. While you an elf sporting a custom sculpted cyberlimb and chrome horns may stand out in a corporate boardroom, it's not something that would get undue attention at a trendy club - it might even get you the right sort of attention on the streets if it makes you look tougher and scarier.
The changes in the affordability of cyberware and bioware in the 70s have made cybermodifications and biosculpting more commonplace and a more acceptable form of body modification. People are always looking for making an impression - anything that makes their look and style unique and distinctive - and that is only going to become more popular as technology makes more options available. Stuff like SURGE and increased accessibility/functionality of cyberware has actually made unusual looks more acceptable though its taken a while (its hard to frown on the guy with the obvious cyberarm when your uncle has gills and scales).
How far a GM/group is willing to take it in his/their game is up to him/them, but in the default SR setting body mods are pretty commonplace in the 70s and less likely to tagged as freakish (obviously contigent on how freaky/extreme the mod is). It shouldn't be too hard to find a security spider with a nanotatt or minor cosmetic mod where today you'd have a computer tech with a couple of piercings or tatts (or a game developer with green rastas for that matter). Conservative corps and environments may frown on it, but people will be people and they'll put up with your excentricities if you're good at what you do.
Posted by: Ryu Jan 15 2008, 02:10 PM
Blue collar workers always had more freedom in both conduct and style. White collars can mostly work via the matrix, only those working in customer relations have to be prepared for a real-world meeting.
A snobish part of society will demand you stay "pure", while most will embrace the new technology. Stylish AR elements capture your imagination, making you wish for a less bland physical body.
Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 15 2008, 02:29 PM
sadly THAT is where the common sense comes and kicks in in the Ass every time . . GM:"i don't care if he has the edge bland, EVERYBODY and their mom is going to remember the 3m tall Troll with the obvious Cyber-Arms and Skull!"
Posted by: Karaden Jan 15 2008, 02:43 PM
| QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jan 15 2008, 09:29 AM) |
| sadly THAT is where the common sense comes and kicks in in the Ass every time . . GM:"i don't care if he has the edge bland, EVERYBODY and their mom is going to remember the 3m tall Troll with the obvious Cyber-Arms and Skull!" |
True, but that is all they are going to remember. You've narrowed it down to a troll, wow, good job. One with cybernetics, excelent work. Now you just have to search through 99% of the troll population (Most of which are SINless) and somehow pick out the correct troll based purly on the fact that he has cyberarms and skull.
Sure, they'll remember that there was a troll, and they'll remember really big things like that, but you won't get any more definitive then that. The police can't pull anyone in just based on them having cyberarms and a skull.
*edit* Oh, and also, it would likely be that they remember a 'big' troll, not a spesificly 3m tall troll, which really isn't all that useful.
Remember, bland says it is hard to remember exactly what he looked like, not "Everyone forgets the guy ever existed."
Posted by: Ryu Jan 15 2008, 03:22 PM
Yep. And they will remember the troll had obvious modifications. You will get several descriptions, the combined essence value of which will make law enforcement search for a cyberzombie.
You might think the cyberskull makes things easier. It doesn´t. In exchange for a reduced set of the whole population you have to check, you just lost many of the most important individual features. Modular cyberlimbs are great for second identities. "Why yes, I´m aware that cyber-shotguns exist officer. But I´m a lawful engineer, I have much better use for this tool-hand."
Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 15 2008, 03:51 PM
. . dammit, why did i not think to use those things like that untill now? O.o
Posted by: JonathanC Jan 15 2008, 06:37 PM
| QUOTE (Stahlseele) |
| sadly THAT is where the common sense comes and kicks in in the Ass every time . . GM:"i don't care if he has the edge bland, EVERYBODY and their mom is going to remember the 3m tall Troll with the obvious Cyber-Arms and Skull!" |
And this is exactly the problem I'm talking about. Shadowrun has become (in my experience, anyway) a game about bland, personality-less paramilitary assholes in trenchcoats because anything else is ruthlessly punished by GMs due to what is, in my opinion, a misinterpretation of what the "Bland" and "Distinctive Style" qualities mean.
Robbing a bank while wearing a purple wig and a pink boa does not give you the Distinctive Style negative quality.
Robbing eight banks and blowing up a taco stand while wearing a purple wig and a pink boa does.
I think we (I'm guilty of this too) have done a disservice in encouraging these bland looks. Honestly, I think a guy that lives in the Barrens and hangs out in bars and clubs to meet contacts who dresses like The Killer is going to stand out more than a freak with chromed horns and webbed fingers. Why? Because you're in a CLUB. People around you are all dressed weird and dancing. You're wearing all black with mirrorshades and you're skulking in a booth at the back of the club.
Next game I run, I'm seriously going to try this. The next guy who shows me another Agent Smith-looking mofo is getting Distinctive Style.
Regarding the bland trait, I don't think it has that much to do with how you're dressed, or even your appearance. Some people are just...boring. They might be 6'8", but all you'll remember about them is that they were tall. A bland Troll with a face full of piercings and an obvious cyberarm won't be any easier to find. Why? Because nobody in his neighborhood remembers the guy. He doesn't show up to block parties, he's quiet and keeps to himself, you never see him hanging out on the corner...he's just some weirdo. Compared to the Elven hussy who's got strange men coming and going all times of the night (obviously a drug dealer) or that noisy human boy who's always blasting Goblin Rock at 1am, who's going to remember the introverted troll with a cyberarm? Clearly he's an amputee, and couldn't afford a more natural looking replacement. It's embarassing for him, poor guy.
Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jan 15 2008, 06:50 PM
...awwww, you can't get any more distinctive than the Short One (#96). Distinctive Style goes beyond just appearance, for it also includes mannerisms and "modus operandi" as well. 
Posted by: JonathanC Jan 15 2008, 06:57 PM
The short one?
Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 15 2008, 07:30 PM
i kinda try to walk the middle-way . . while in run my characters basically mostly wear all black/dark cltohing(at night and in dark places, of course) or camo armor . . when not on Run they tend to show off what they have . . more or less . . who's going to suspect the trolls belt is actually a whip and the chains on his leather-vest are chains he swings like a whip? Wearing Gang-Colour while not on the run is basically considered tres-chic *g*
Posted by: Fortinbras Jan 15 2008, 07:56 PM
It's a variant on power gaming. Or smart gaming, depending on your philosophical bent. To buy cosmetic augmentation costs money that could be better spent on guns, spells or drones and gives no distinct advantage.
Plus it gives the disadvantage of being recognizable or distinct from the usual hoi-poi.
Why spend money on something my GM will use to bite me in the butt later?
If you want to put the "cyber" back in cyberpunk, makes mods an advantage in certain social scenarios. Make certain cyber mods free because they are so common. Give your players some incentive to be weird and wired or they will rules whore you to the bone and take all of the character out of their characters.
Posted by: JonathanC Jan 15 2008, 08:13 PM
Well Fort, that's why I'm thinking about reversing the "standard" procedure on mods and visibility. Anyone hanging out on the street in plain, unadorned clothes, not dancing in the club, not drinking at the bar, is going to stand out way more than the techno-fetishist who at least makes an effort to look like they belong at the club.
Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jan 15 2008, 08:17 PM
| QUOTE (Fortinbras) |
| Make certain cyber mods free because they are so common. |
The rules are already in place for this. Lifestyle. Many players need to learn to try to get more stuff for free by playing the Lifestyle card, and many GMs need to learn to give it to them.
So...do you have a list of 'ware that you suggest be free?
Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jan 15 2008, 08:22 PM
| QUOTE (JonathanC) |
| The short one? |
...my namesake PC, she's only 4'10".
Posted by: JonathanC Jan 15 2008, 08:30 PM
Ah, I see. Well, the other thing I was hoping for in this thread (I'm going to give it a try when I have the time) would be some examples of useful flamboyance. For example, I imagine having retractable poisoned fangs could be a useful last resort for a face. Has anyone actually used any of the sea-going cyberware? Fins, gills, etc?
Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 15 2008, 08:31 PM
once when i was building the thing from the black lagoon . . of course an orc *g*
Posted by: Hank Jan 15 2008, 08:46 PM
| QUOTE (JonathanC) |
| Regarding the bland trait, I don't think it has that much to do with how you're dressed, or even your appearance. Some people are just...boring. |
Awesome. Maybe I have the bland trait.
Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 15 2008, 09:06 PM
Usefull Flamboyance would be Blurr . . basically Ruthenium pure on Skin, Suit and Cloak who used it to appear blurry to the whole world. . . and DeSynch who used extensive ear/voice hardware to make his voice be not in synch with his lip-movement . .
Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jan 15 2008, 09:20 PM
Well for the Short One it is a combination of things.
1. her height - human only 4'10" tall
2. her long silvery white hair (natural)
3. Rising Sun motif tattoo around her right eye,
4. full back tattoo of a white lily
5. incorporates gymnastics moves into her melee fighting
6. uses twin revolvers ala Doc Holladay style.
7. dresses in a an odd mix of modern and old wild west styles
8. speaks in "cowboy" lingo (when not speaking in Japanese)
9. curses like Yosemite Sam
10. wary of strange elves
Distinctive enough?
Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 15 2008, 10:00 PM
| QUOTE |
| 10. wary of strange elves Distinctive enough? |
no *g*
at least half of those traits are a regular occurance in my characters / in the characters in the group i am playing in *g*
Posted by: Jhaiisiin Jan 15 2008, 10:06 PM
How bout an Albino (ultra-pale blue eyes with silver rims on the irises, silver hair, milk-white skin version) Elf who is never without his staff (weapon focus), has a virtual menagerie of Spirits bound to him, dresses in the finest clothes, wears gloves at all times, and uses the Sterilize spell every time he walks to a new location, without fail, and is probably more snooty than the Princes of the Tir themselves?
Posted by: JonathanC Jan 15 2008, 10:15 PM
| QUOTE (Kyoto Kid) |
| 9. curses like Yosemite Sam |
Great Horny-toads?
Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 15 2008, 10:20 PM
| QUOTE (Jhaiisiin) |
| How bout an Albino (ultra-pale blue eyes with silver rims on the irises, silver hair, milk-white skin version) Elf who is never without his staff (weapon focus), has a virtual menagerie of Spirits bound to him, dresses in the finest clothes, wears gloves at all times, and uses the Sterilize spell every time he walks to a new location, without fail, and is probably more snooty than the Princes of the Tir themselves? |
so, you're playing joe-average from the dandelion-eaters?
Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jan 15 2008, 10:23 PM
| QUOTE (JonathanC) | ||
Great Horny-toads? |
...yep.
Her term for elves is "long-eared galoots."
Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 15 2008, 10:31 PM
| QUOTE (Kyoto Kid) | ||||
...yep. Her term for elves is "long-eared galoots." |
would one actually have to be american or something to understand that? x.x
i'm guessing horny toads should be trolls and/or orcs . . but what the hell is a galoot?
Posted by: Jhaiisiin Jan 15 2008, 10:35 PM
| QUOTE ("Stahlseele") |
| so, you're playing joe-average from the dandelion-eaters? |
LOL Not quite, but given the arrogance of the elves, I can sorta see that.
Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jan 15 2008, 10:37 PM
| QUOTE (Stahlseele) | ||||||
would one actually have to be american or something to understand that? x.x i'm guessing horny toads should be trolls and/or orcs . . but what the hell is a galoot? |
One would've had to have seen the character of Yosemite Sam in the old Warner Bros Bugs Bunny cartoons.
I wouldn't worry about it.
Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 15 2008, 10:40 PM
okay, let's get back to topic *g*
another one of my usefull freaks was the beast who, at his"day"job was a bartender . . being able to jump "climb a good distance and having the ability to hold things with your feet is a very usefull trait for a barkeeper *g*
Posted by: Fortune Jan 15 2008, 10:43 PM
I'm not quite sure I'd actually want to be served by a bartender who uses his feet. 
Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 15 2008, 10:44 PM
as long as they are clean, you are not to complain about fast and spectacular service <.<
Posted by: Fortune Jan 15 2008, 10:47 PM
| QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jan 16 2008, 08:44 AM) |
| as long as they are clean, you are not to complain about fast and spectacular service <.< |
Is that like a directive from the official tavern overlord or something?
Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 15 2008, 10:53 PM
that, and you don't really wanna make somebody angry who can grab you by the shoulders with his feet and carry you half way across the room while hanging from the ceiling with his hands do you? *g*
think the librarian from the unseen university on discworld . . kinda like that as a bartender ^^
Posted by: Fortune Jan 15 2008, 10:57 PM
I would still object if he was serving me with his feet. 
Seriously though, he is in a service industry, where he has to deal with the public, typically (but not always) in a heath-conscious manner. A business where the perception of cleanliness is usually just as important as cleanliness itself. This guy would have few customers in my games (and in real life as far as I am concerned), unless he tended bar at the only sleaze hole tavern for miles around.
Posted by: Adarael Jan 15 2008, 11:15 PM
Interestingly, I was thinking about this the other day. Recently, my street sam had to ditch his old doss and get himself a new lifestyle, and the best one his fixer could secure for him (physically, I mean, in terms of the housing) was a Medium, up from Low. Now, despite the fact that his rent is somewhat higher, his rent can't have ballooned THAT much. He's not living in a mansion. It's still an apartment. So I started thinking about how to rationalize how he's been spending his money now that he knows that people from past jobs are interested in killing him.
See, he's got a high disguise skill and makes a habit of changing faces. So I thought, "Why not spend that extra money per month on extra plastic surgery and outlandish body mods?" Tattoos that he gets removed a couple of weeks after getting. Light bands under the skin. Fiber optics woven into his hair, but not implanted. Minor nano injections for bioluminescent patches.
Since the character lives in Capitol Hill, I figure people with odd body mods is de rigeur for the locals. And given that all these kinds of operations are mall-clinic level, why can't those kinds of mods be the 2070 equivalent of getting your hair done?
I've always favored a slightly more distinctive countercultural style for my SR, though.
Posted by: Jhaiisiin Jan 15 2008, 11:15 PM
He'd need to keep his feet as clean as his hands, and then use a rag he kept on a sterilized stainless steel ball to pick up beers and drinks and glasses to make sure his own feet/hands/things never touched the bottles/glasses/whatever. Then it might become a nice gimmick...
Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 15 2008, 11:16 PM
or he is working in a jungle themed club or something that is the place for people with such augmentations or abilities to be or the last sleaze-hole in the whole barrens . . or basically anything in between *g*
Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jan 15 2008, 11:25 PM
| QUOTE (Stahlseele) | ||
no *g* at least half of those traits are a regular occurance in my characters / in the characters in the group i am playing in *g* |
...whether a set of traits and unique appearance qualifies for Distinctive Style depends on the GM and nature of the campaign to some extent.
The GM that I ran her under did consider her appearance and mannerisms to be unique enough to qualify her for the Distinctive Style quality as long as I played her consistently so. So one really doesn't necessarily need to be totally bizarre looking to have the flaw. The character just needs a few quirks or traits that stand out enough by which people can easily remember and identify her with.
Posted by: Fortune Jan 15 2008, 11:30 PM
| QUOTE (Stahlseele) |
| or he is working in a jungle themed club ... |
That'd work.
Posted by: Calabim Jan 16 2008, 12:11 AM
I did play an elf who specialized in (what he called) Aquatic Infiltration. He had gills, fins, and even carried extra cyber air tank in case anyone wanted to dive with him. His specialty was to go in through the sewage. 
If your facility was on a coastline he felt he could get in.
I really wanted him to have the punk feel and I figered anyone who spends this much cash to alter himself wants to stand out so I had his orthoskin (sp?) fashoned to have the markings of a killer whale.
Best part of the game was when a witness was asked to identify us her reply was, " I'm not sure but the elf may have had paint on his face."
Posted by: Lyonheart Jan 16 2008, 01:01 AM
| QUOTE (JonathanC) |
| Regarding the bland trait, I don't think it has that much to do with how you're dressed, or even your appearance. Some people are just...boring. They might be 6'8", but all you'll remember about them is that they were tall. A bland Troll with a face full of piercings and an obvious cyberarm won't be any easier to find. Why? Because nobody in his neighborhood remembers the guy. He doesn't show up to block parties, he's quiet and keeps to himself, you never see him hanging out on the corner...he's just some weirdo. Compared to the Elven hussy who's got strange men coming and going all times of the night (obviously a drug dealer) or that noisy human boy who's always blasting Goblin Rock at 1am, who's going to remember the introverted troll with a cyberarm? Clearly he's an amputee, and couldn't afford a more natural looking replacement. It's embarassing for him, poor guy. |
Good honest citizen he is, probably a veteran.
Posted by: Ravor Jan 16 2008, 05:54 AM
Hells, in my games if you don't look like a total freak then you are going to stand out everywhere except in the most uptight corp enclaves, and even then most teenagers have at least one or two mods...
Posted by: Fortinbras Jan 16 2008, 06:07 AM
| QUOTE (Moon-Hawk) | ||
The rules are already in place for this. Lifestyle. Many players need to learn to try to get more stuff for free by playing the Lifestyle card, and many GMs need to learn to give it to them. So...do you have a list of 'ware that you suggest be free? |
Cosmetic mods.
For example, if one was a bartender, waiter or cook, it would probably be advantageous to get fake hair, so it doesn't fall into the food.
The problem with claiming body mods as a Lifestyle expense is that Lifestyle has to be kept up and body mods are a one shot. I don't know if that would be kosher with all, but anything that gets your elf to look like he lives in the future rather than an average schmuck is going to delve the player further into the character and make the playing of the role that much more fun.
Posted by: Ravor Jan 16 2008, 06:32 AM
Well one could always assume that part of the lifestyle costs is paying back the loan the character used to pay for his mods in the first place.
I think I feel a "you just might be a redneck" joke coming on... 
Posted by: JonathanC Jan 16 2008, 07:04 PM
I might think about giving them an exta few K to buy purely cosmetic things. Or just factor in style more when calculating RP bonuses for karma awards.
Posted by: Adarael Jan 16 2008, 08:43 PM
| QUOTE |
| The problem with claiming body mods as a Lifestyle expense is that Lifestyle has to be kept up and body mods are a one shot. |
This isn't actually all that true for cosmetic mods. While it's true for gross or invasive implants such as arms, 'wires, eyes, and the like, there are myriad groups of cultureware that are easily reversible (and therefore a revolving cost) or that run down or out. Some examples:
-Fashion nanotech tattoo injections - or nanotech of any kind, without a hive.
-'Slow burnout' bioware such as Carcerands designed to time-release something. Say, compounds that make hair bioluminescent, so that a week or two down the line, they have neat hair.
-Less effective but more safe forms of Oxygenated Fluorocarbons - no game bonus, but no chance of embolism! Or really, any of a slew of performance enhancers. Bacteria in the lungs which function as air pollution scrubbers. Dietary expansion drugs, so you can (for a limited time) eat mildly toxic substances - or increase your alcohol consumption without hangovers.
There's all kinds of stuff you can think of, if you wanna go down this route. It's not for everybody, but I loves me the high tech and body mods.
Posted by: JonathanC Jan 16 2008, 09:55 PM
What do you guys think of adding in a "style" karma bonus, separate from the RP bonus? On one hand, there's a worry about it encouraging stupid behavior (trying to double-gun your way through a room full of LS), but on the other hand...if Shadowrun isn't about taking stupid risks that could get you killed, what IS it about?
Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jan 16 2008, 09:58 PM
| QUOTE (Adarael @ Jan 16 2008, 03:43 PM) | ||
This isn't actually all that true for cosmetic mods. |
What does being one-shot vs ongoing have to do with being covered by lifestyle? A big screen TV is a "one-shot" item, but that is certainly within a high or even medium lifestyle. If they tried to get a big screen TV every month I'd say no unless they had Luxury, but just because something doesn't send you a monthly bill doesn't mean it can't reasonably be covered under lifestyle. Higher-end lifestyles even list cars as being included, that's a "one-shot" item.
Posted by: Adarael Jan 16 2008, 11:04 PM
I actually regard that as not one-shot. Most people now pay for their vehicles in installments via auto loan, or through lease-to-own. Compound that monthly payment with upkeep costs, and it's really just a monthly money hole like anything else.
I mean, really. Who do you know who's bought a new car in one lump payment at the dealership? Not many, I'd wager.
Posted by: Ryu Jan 16 2008, 11:18 PM
Who cares about one-time or not? If someone is jumping lifestyles to get an advantage, no big deal. It´s a mayor out-of-character decision, and it gives no power to the PC. Noone will do that for real.
Posted by: Ravor Jan 17 2008, 12:06 AM
Personally I like the idea of a "style bonus" provided that the players understand that the DM is not going to pull any punches and that their characters very well might die if they try to pull something stupid and fail.
Posted by: Carver Jan 17 2008, 12:42 AM
| QUOTE (Adarael) |
| I actually regard that as not one-shot. Most people now pay for their vehicles in installments via auto loan, or through lease-to-own. Compound that monthly payment with upkeep costs, and it's really just a monthly money hole like anything else. I mean, really. Who do you know who's bought a new car in one lump payment at the dealership? Not many, I'd wager. |
I own both of my cars and my motorcycle outright. I didn't buy them in cash from the dealer, but they're all paid for *shrug*.
I'm probably low-mid middle class, so someone in a high lifestyle in SR could easily do the same thing.
Posted by: JonathanC Jan 17 2008, 01:03 AM
| QUOTE (Ravor) |
| Personally I like the idea of a "style bonus" provided that the players understand that the DM is not going to pull any punches and that their characters very well might die if they try to pull something stupid and fail. |
I usually don't have problems with that. When I have players do stupid things, they're usually stupid selfish things, so style bonuses won't affect that.
Posted by: Sterling Jan 17 2008, 02:27 AM
I've always seen my character and my player's characters as having style, but not so blatantly distinctive as to be a hindrance. Shadowrunners need to stand out, they have to have a unique style to match their rep (and tie to it), but not to an extreme.
Sterling (the shark shaman with the cyberarm) stood out, as he didn't fit the usual profile of a magically active character. He did dress professionally, but he did tend to berserk and fireball things that annoyed him. That's pushing the edge of distinctive style.
The sammy with the flaming purple mohawk, ripped clothes, and custom knives is not distinctive style, but again, pushes the edge. The second you have a weapon that leaves distinctive marks (or fires bullets that all have 'spaz' stamped on them) you begin to enter the realm of distinctive style. Anything you do that leaves a trace that the corps or cops can easily say 'Joe Runner did this, I can tell because that fragger has a gun custom modded to fire square bullets', you're in distinctive style.
In fact, the distinctive flaw is something some runners might embrace, but not as a flaw. If you adopt a distinctive style to go with a fake SIN, then ditch the style with said SIN, then you can 'vanish' that much easier.
Posted by: Adarael Jan 17 2008, 07:48 PM
| QUOTE (Carver) | ||
I own both of my cars and my motorcycle outright. I didn't buy them in cash from the dealer, but they're all paid for *shrug*. I'm probably low-mid middle class, so someone in a high lifestyle in SR could easily do the same thing. |
You are in the severe minority, I assure you.
Posted by: Carver Jan 17 2008, 08:39 PM
| QUOTE (Adarael) | ||||
You are in the severe minority, I assure you. |
I don't doubt it. I was just saying that it's not impossible, is all.
Posted by: JonathanC Jan 18 2008, 07:47 PM
| QUOTE (Sterling) |
| I've always seen my character and my player's characters as having style, but not so blatantly distinctive as to be a hindrance. Shadowrunners need to stand out, they have to have a unique style to match their rep (and tie to it), but not to an extreme. Sterling (the shark shaman with the cyberarm) stood out, as he didn't fit the usual profile of a magically active character. He did dress professionally, but he did tend to berserk and fireball things that annoyed him. That's pushing the edge of distinctive style. The sammy with the flaming purple mohawk, ripped clothes, and custom knives is not distinctive style, but again, pushes the edge. The second you have a weapon that leaves distinctive marks (or fires bullets that all have 'spaz' stamped on them) you begin to enter the realm of distinctive style. Anything you do that leaves a trace that the corps or cops can easily say 'Joe Runner did this, I can tell because that fragger has a gun custom modded to fire square bullets', you're in distinctive style. In fact, the distinctive flaw is something some runners might embrace, but not as a flaw. If you adopt a distinctive style to go with a fake SIN, then ditch the style with said SIN, then you can 'vanish' that much easier. |
I always thought "Distinctive Style" was more about guys who leave calling cards, or commit "theme" capers, like The Riddler.
Which would, you know, be AWESOME. Imagine a Troll with orange hair and a green bowler hat. "Riddle me this, chummer!"
Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 18 2008, 08:37 PM
WEEE AAAREEE THEEE BLAAACK HAAAND . . ok, probably not like that in english <.<
starting off with leaving black handprints, going over to leaving black leather gloves and finally leaving black cyber-hands as a business card *g*
Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jan 18 2008, 09:18 PM
| QUOTE (JonathanC) |
| I always thought "Distinctive Style" was more about guys who leave calling cards, or commit "theme" capers, like The Riddler. |
...that would definitely qualify. My demolitionist Leela (#101) always left a Queen of Diamonds playing card in a plastic holder behind at every demolitions job she did. That was the Codename assigned her by Serbian Intelligence when she was still with the Croat Resistance.
Posted by: TheRedRightHand Jan 18 2008, 11:24 PM
| QUOTE (Kyoto Kid) | ||
...that would definitely qualify. My demolitionist Leela (#101) always left a Queen of Diamonds playing card in a plastic holder behind at every demolitions job she did. That was the Codename assigned her by Serbian Intelligence when she was still with the Croat Resistance. |
Wouldn't the card get blown up immediately afterwards?
Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jan 18 2008, 11:25 PM
...she'd leave it nearby after the job was done.
Posted by: JonathanC Jan 18 2008, 11:39 PM
On a related note...what with the prescence of tails, and the possibility of gaining animal features and fur, are the devs trying to tell us that the Furry subculture has exploded in 2070? When you walk down the street in downtown Seattle, are you in danger of being mugged by a dude that looks like Starfox?
Posted by: Adarael Jan 18 2008, 11:48 PM
Only if you're doing a barrel roll.
Posted by: JonathanC Jan 18 2008, 11:58 PM
I'm not sure if streets teeming with cybered-up furverts makes Shadowrun more or less dystopian.
Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jan 19 2008, 12:36 AM
...it could make allergy to fur common though.
Posted by: JonathanC Jan 19 2008, 01:14 AM
On a more serious note, I was wondering...what about freakish mods to cover up something worse? Like, would a Vampire be able to cover up their deathly pale skin with orthoskin? Could a Shedim possess someone, then have that person get so much cyber that it messes with their aura enough to make them less detectable by magicians?
Posted by: Lyonheart Jan 19 2008, 01:26 AM
| QUOTE (JonathanC) |
| I'm not sure if streets teeming with cybered-up furverts makes Shadowrun more or less dystopian. |
I say yes, it does, but it should not prevent us from mocking them.
Posted by: Jaid Jan 19 2008, 01:39 AM
| QUOTE (JonathanC) |
| On a more serious note, I was wondering...what about freakish mods to cover up something worse? Like, would a Vampire be able to cover up their deathly pale skin with orthoskin? Could a Shedim possess someone, then have that person get so much cyber that it messes with their aura enough to make them less detectable by magicians? |
a vampire has regeneration. good luck grafting orthoskin onto one. (you do realise you could just use theatrical paint or something?)
and shedim posess dead people... who are generally not compatible with new cyberware anyways. even if they do manage to acquire a living host, their own aura would override any cyber the host has, imo. not to mention the average shedim isn't exactly going to have an easy time convincing anyone to install cyber into them. (maybe a master shedim? but don't they have masking?)
Posted by: JonathanC Jan 19 2008, 01:55 AM
Why would a regular person refuse a Shedim? It's not like everyone can see auras. If the Shedim has the credits, and looks like a human being, why not?
I hadn't thought about the Vampire's regeneration interfering with the Orthoskin...but they don't regen *that* fast, do they?
Posted by: Adarael Jan 19 2008, 02:18 AM
Generally one would refuse a shedim because 'standard' shedim are kind of retarded. There is evidence that standard shedim are pretty incapable of masquerading as human under anything more than a cursory glance, because they're unable to keep their hate of the living in check.
Master Shedim can do whatever they want, although why they'd PAY for anything is beyond me.
Posted by: Jaid Jan 19 2008, 10:22 PM
| QUOTE (JonathanC) |
| I hadn't thought about the Vampire's regeneration interfering with the Orthoskin...but they don't regen *that* fast, do they? |
2 boxes per turn, on average.
Posted by: Fortune Jan 19 2008, 10:38 PM
Is there actually anything in writing in SR4 itself that prohibits Vampires (or any other regenerating entity) from getting implants?
Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 19 2008, 10:52 PM
nothing aside from the point where it says that any implants get painfully ejected or something, as far as i know . . there's of course the logic that any wound big enough to implant things in would close up almost immediately after the cut had been made . . but aside from that? there was mentioning of this in the part about the recreational drug that gave regeneration to the consumer in SR3 . . and i think in the usual regeneration part in SR3 too, but aside from that? nothing
Posted by: Jaid Jan 19 2008, 10:53 PM
yes. there's the notes that are inscribed on my brain that reads "allowing critters that regenerate damage equivalent to 1 days worth every 3 seconds to have anything implanted in them is ridiculous".
since shadowrun was not written to be played by a bunch of brainless rules-zombies, that is the only place it needs to be written.
Posted by: Fortune Jan 19 2008, 10:55 PM
| QUOTE (Jaid @ Jan 20 2008, 08:53 AM) |
| since shadowrun was not written to be played by a bunch of brainless rules-zombies, that is the only place it needs to be written. |
Funny that the first three editions required it to be spelled out in detail.
My point is that there are a lot of people coming to Shadowrun that have never played (or even read a book from) the previous editions. Legacy rules like this are problematic if there is actually no mention of any restrictions in the new edition.
Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Jan 19 2008, 10:58 PM
I've always thought of it like trying to implant Wolverine's adamantium .. but worst, 'cause SR vamps can heal from almsot complete death to nothing in seconds. You make a scalpel cut and it closes again right behind the blade. Makes it tough to stuff anything in there Unless you end up with Dr FeelMana, MD and Thaumaturge, who uses a foci scalpel. In which case you're back to the vaqmp popping out the 'ware again after it's implanted. Which would hurt (again Wolverine - Magneto. Ow)
God I'm such a geek sometimes.
Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 19 2008, 11:02 PM
nah, you're no geek enough if you don't know such things ^^ . . and in Wolverines Case the Adamantium was bonded to the Bones by Nanotechnological Means if i remember Correctly . . and there was a little bit like pseudo Regeneration concerning Characters that got turned ghoul . . something like Bone-Lacing actually stayed intact, while everything that needed to be actually wired into your Nervous System would have gotten some Damage . .
And Regeneration does not Heal wounds that have been made with an allergen . . so Silver-Allergy would only need an Silver-Scalpell and not a (weapon)focus . .
Depending on the allergy level one could argue that things made of the allergen(i.e. silver) would stay in and intact . .
Furthermore needs a roll be done if the damage level got to be Deadly if the Regeneration would happen . . if you rolled 2 ones with your Essence it did not happen i think . . and again, Wolverines Healing is much more hardcore than usual SR3 Regeneration . . his Regeneration actually Heals Death to some Extent i think . . he was put through a frigging Sun once and when he came out on the other Side he regenerated again <.< . .
Posted by: Fortune Jan 19 2008, 11:04 PM
We've discussed different techniques that could be used for Vamp implantation for years. Technically, even the Shadowrun novels have cybered vamps, and all but one of the novels (including the cybered vamp one) are considered to be canon.
Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 19 2008, 11:09 PM
Cybered Vampires? where? x.x . .
i don't remember reading . . wait . . yes there was something like that . . in the Terminus Experiment Novel . . but there some mad scientist/magician hat worked on the actual HMHVV Strain to produce those THINGS . . that i would not have called Vampires but Zombies more or less . . they were closer to the actual Dracula-Ghoul than they were to the Dracula-Vampire . . and much closer to the SR-Ghoul than to the SR-Vampire . .
Posted by: Fortune Jan 19 2008, 11:18 PM
They were definitely Vampires. And lesbians ... don't forget the lesbians.
Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Jan 19 2008, 11:21 PM
Yes but they were all experiments, where the cyber was added in before, and taken beyond the pale, going to negative essence, and then using vampriism to keep them sustained.
The Terminus Experiment was the title, wasn't it? THe novel most SR players try to forget?
And in Weapon x, they cut him open and put stuff in. Any nanotech is retroactive mods to the story line. It didnt xist when wolverine was first put together.
Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 19 2008, 11:23 PM
who could forget the magical adept banshee(elf vampire) lesbian stripper ninjas?
they did not have any regeneration to speak of, if i remember that particular book correctly . .
they just did not die when half of their body went missing through some sort of bad luck or outside influence *g*
and they did die when the cyber got damaged too . .
Edit: they did not so much cut him open and put it in(that's X-13 or X23 or what's her number where they actually replaced bone by bone with Adamantium) . . they basically injected it into him and it molded onto his bones on the microscopic level . . and later on there was some nano-tech added to allow the actual production of whie blood cells or something . . yes, i am a very big fan of Wolverine, yes, i have read ALL AND EVERY SINGLE ONE COMIC in which he makes some sort of appearance(at least i believe that i have) . . and i did read the Book Weapon-X . . gods i loved that nightmarish scene in which he was basically just the walking skeleton(no matter how much my brain kept screaming at me for accepting that in spite of my knowledge of biology) after coming out of the pit with the active radios ^^
Posted by: Fortune Jan 19 2008, 11:25 PM
There's also a cybered Vamp NPC in canon (SR2?), but my damn old brain can't recall exactly where.
Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 19 2008, 11:30 PM
ok, i jumped SR2 . . i had a quick fling with SR1, then nothing for LONG YEARS . . and then SR3 *g* if you manage to find it i will of course take a look at it so i can discuss propperly with you . . but i stand by my point that those abominations in Terminus Experiment were no real Vampires <.< . . Old Marco was the closest to the stereotypical Vampire, aside from the Magician Adept (Elfish?) Vampire Martin DeVries . . (who somehow did not get to be a male banshee ?)
Posted by: Fortune Jan 19 2008, 11:39 PM
As for Terminus Experiment, they were specifically called vampires throughout the book, IIRC (It's been years since I read it, and did my best to forget it right afterward).
Personally, I don't see why it wouldn't be possible, using special techniques and the like (increasing the cost dramatically), that Vampires could not get implants. Paying for the stuff with Essence means that it is a part of them now, and regeneration shouldn't be a problem once the body accepts the new material. I might rule that it would take the equivalent to a Delta Clinic to perform the surgery, and that merely being a Vampire lowers the effective Grade of any implanted 'wares by one (making Delta into Beta, Beta into Alpha, Alpha into Standard, and forbidding the implantation of Standard grade 'ware altogether), while keeping costs the same.
Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 19 2008, 11:48 PM
yes yes, i know they are being called vampires . . my main beef with the book as the writing/story is good in my eyes . . if a bit cliché *g*
also: for example let's take cyber-eyes in a vampire . . just because they paid for it with essence does not mean it is a part of them then . . it would allow them to cast through them as it allows for any magician . . but if the regeneration still says:"this are my eye-sockets, get out!" it would still regrow the original eyes . . if that did not allready happen shortly after they were removed before the new ones got put in *g* and if the eyes regrow, what will happen to the cyber? *insert squelching sounds here* probably squish the growing eyes and in time be broken apart and forcibly extruded through the eye socket i'd say . . BIOWARE . . that one i could digg . . it's biological matter and especially in SR4 with it costing essence and cultured being cloned out of the own body-parts that would benefit from regeneration in my eyes . . if one can actually get it in there first *g*
if that has been accomplished? well, heck, bioed(maybe even nanoed[and what did i have to read in corporate enclaves about mana-tech?]) Vampire with Bioware that will never get any stress or something because of the repairs being done by regeneration . .
Posted by: Jaid Jan 19 2008, 11:57 PM
incidentally, you would have to implant a chunk of allergen into a critter with regeneration to keep it from regenerating. a silver scalpel will only hold the cut open as long as you hold the scalpel to the cut, under the new rules.
Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 20 2008, 12:00 AM
i think i mentioned that . . but heck if i can find it right now O.o
of course you're right about that, but you'd have to have maximum moderate allergy for that to work . . if you had serious allergy, you would get damage every some seconds from sheer contact with it . . with moderate, you only get modifiers if i remember correctly *g*
Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Jan 20 2008, 12:38 AM
ON THE SUBJECT OF CAMPS WITH 'WARE;
(on the subject of forgetting to remove caps lock and not caring enough to backspace, but caring enough to explain it ....)
Like FOrutne, I clearly remember the SR3 reference to ware popping out after integration in SR3. But I still get the two editions cross with each other. Does anyone have an actual page reference to that rule in SR4?
Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 20 2008, 12:41 AM
Camps with Ware?
Crstal Lake Camp with Jason X for example?
sorry, i could not help myself . . i am tired and will use that excuse to not look that one up right now and instead going straight to bed now *g*
Posted by: Fortune Jan 20 2008, 12:43 AM
| QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0) |
| ... ON THE SUBJECT OF CAMPS WITH 'WARE ... |
Are these for those rich little corper kids so their parents can get a break during the summer?
Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Jan 20 2008, 12:53 AM
Oh shut up you
Posted by: knasser Jan 20 2008, 01:16 AM
Camps with ware?
I have this vision now of a dual Shadowrunning team of two samurai based on Julian Clary and Graham Norton. Could call themselves the Camp Samurai and have monowhips with pink feathers on the end instead of weights or something
Non-British dumpshockers may not understand.
Posted by: Fortune Jan 20 2008, 01:46 AM
Great! Now I have a strange, almost uncontrollable urge to convert http://imdb.com/title/tt0109045/ into a Shadowrun game.
Posted by: JonathanC Jan 20 2008, 05:23 PM
FAAAAAABULOUS!
Posted by: Siege Jan 22 2008, 05:07 PM
Just watch out for the ping pong balls.
-Siege
Posted by: darthmord Jan 22 2008, 05:19 PM
| QUOTE (Cardul) | ||||||
Augmentation disagrees with you there...it says he was killed by a Cyberzombie. |
That is still very much dying by medical complications due to sub-zero essence... it just didn't state that it was his subzero essence that killed him.
Posted by: Fortune Jan 22 2008, 05:44 PM
| QUOTE (darthmord) | ||||||||
That is still very much dying by medical complications due to sub-zero essence... it just didn't state that it was his subzero essence that killed him. |
I'm still waiting for a quote or page reference from Cardul on the subject.
Posted by: Cardul Jan 23 2008, 03:47 AM
| QUOTE (Fortune) | ||||||||||
I'm still waiting for a quote or page reference from Cardul on the subject. |
Actually, way back someone posted the same quote from the book
| QUOTE |
| QUOTE (Augmentation pg. 143) It is about this time of year when I get myself a liter of cherry flavored tequila, think of my old friend Hatchetman, and shudder. It seems like an appropriate time to bring people up to speed on cybermancy. |
To me, that indicating that Hatchetman was killed by a Cyberzombie since I never got the old Cybertechnology book. This was to me more like what one would expect of a flashback to someone dying horribly..
Posted by: DTFarstar Jan 23 2008, 04:29 AM
I thought Hatchetman became a CZ for some noble reason.
Not sure where I remember that from though.
Chris
Posted by: Grinder Jan 23 2008, 08:52 AM
The fiction part in Cybertechnology tells his story.
Posted by: JonathanC Jan 23 2008, 07:24 PM
Answering my own initial question, I'm currently in the planning stages for an adventure, possibly a campaign, set in Los Angeles. I want to emphasize the speed of life, celebrity culture, and emphasis on style and appearance. As a setting, L.A. makes sense as a place where dropping a few hundred nuyen to get your cyberarm engraved might make sense.
Posted by: Cardul Jan 24 2008, 06:51 AM
| QUOTE (JonathanC) |
| Answering my own initial question, I'm currently in the planning stages for an adventure, possibly a campaign, set in Los Angeles. I want to emphasize the speed of life, celebrity culture, and emphasis on style and appearance. As a setting, L.A. makes sense as a place where dropping a few hundred nuyen to get your cyberarm engraved might make sense. |
Just make sure your runner remember to get a time delay in their Run Broadcast contracts
LA is just...freaky..my GM and fellow players all agreed: they would not want to do ANYTHING there...
Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Jan 24 2008, 07:06 AM
Hatchetman cuaght a rocket on a job, and his Johnson was "kind enough" to see to his medical needs. What the Johnson thought he needed, and what Hatchetman though, may have differed however. But he was alive. More or less. The *shuddering* would because of the first hand account of what Hatchetman was becoming. The piece was great, and a lot of people's favorite fiction piece. Frank Trollman's follow up in Augmentation was very good too. Defintely gives a good understanding as to why someone would *shudder* at the thought of being 'saved' that way.
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