Printable Version of Topic

Posted by: Onyx Jan 20 2008, 03:21 AM

I know that Critical Strike can be used with Killing hands making adepts all the more deadly, but what I am wondering if there are any rules that allow the use of Critical Strike with a weapon (specialized or bonded)?

Posted by: Whipstitch Jan 20 2008, 04:04 AM

Afraid not. It'd take a smarter man than I to balance out such a thing, really. Imagine an attuned and bound monowhip combined with critical strike; you could end up with strength 1 PCes cleaving through citymasters that way. Such a thing might set Hellsing fanboy hearts a flutter, but it could also give a lot of GMs fits. Then again, it's not like we don't already have Quick Draw powered Trollbows to contend with...

Posted by: Fortune Jan 20 2008, 07:29 AM

Technically, Critical Strike can be used with unarmed combat weapons, like Hardliner Gloves and Brass Knuckles (both of which I expect to see in Arsenal). I wouldn't allow its use in conjunction with technical unarmed weapons like Shock Gloves though.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 20 2008, 10:22 AM

so an attuned weapon focus in the form of a glove(if you can do that) would be pretty much usable to just grip into a citymaster or the body of whoever and rip out whatever? O.o

Posted by: Fortune Jan 20 2008, 11:04 AM

Just combine Critical Strike with Smashing Blow for all your barrier busting needs.

Posted by: Fortune Jan 20 2008, 11:06 AM

Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 20 2008, 11:14 AM

must have overread that x.x
or i'm getting things mixed up with 3rd

Posted by: Fortune Jan 20 2008, 11:17 AM

There was no such restriction in SR3, so that might be it.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 20 2008, 11:19 AM

GAAAH! ò,Ó . . it's getting increasingly irritating with that smiley <.< . .
and increasingly harder to keep appart 3rd(playing) and 4th(not playing) rules in my Head x.x

Posted by: Fortune Jan 20 2008, 11:24 AM

Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 20 2008, 11:29 AM

Fortune-atly(<= yes, i know that it would have to be fortunately) i don't have THAT problem anymore *g* . . SR1 has been more or less 15 Years ago for me if i remember correctly and i completely jumped 2nd ed ^^
btw: curse you! both for that smiley and your ninja editing skills <.< . .

Posted by: Ryu Jan 20 2008, 11:31 AM

Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 20 2008, 11:47 AM

Nuh!
Nevarr!
i'll most likely buy most of the SR4 stuff anyway because i'm a sucker for new toys and fluff, but i seriously abhor the SR4 rules . . the only thing i really like about SR4 is the new cyber-limb rules as of yet *g*

Posted by: Whipstitch Jan 20 2008, 06:10 PM

What's there to abhor about the current rules? Not much of it at all is really that messy and the magic rules are particularly good relative to previous editions. I mean, I guess I'm fairly firm about how I make rulings on Agents, grenades and long shot tests, but even those much maligned topics aren't nearly as big a problem as many make them out to be. The script kiddy thing for example is mostly a thematic issue, and honestly, even in SR3 hackers progressed through building uber decks more than skill gains.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 20 2008, 07:06 PM

you don't really want me to go in a rant over why i(and my whole gaming group) think SR4 sucks do you? o.o

Posted by: Whipstitch Jan 20 2008, 07:24 PM

I'm pretty sure I just asked. A lot of your other posts seem rather reactionary or based on knee jerk misinterpretations of the RAW, so I'm pretty curious, although it'd probably best to go with a PM or starting another thread to avoid further derailing.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 20 2008, 08:00 PM

ok, have it your way then . .
if anybody else wants to know why i personally think SR4 sucks (aside from the finally usefull rules for cyber limbs) i will add it here in spoiler tags too . .
mind you, this is strictly my own opinion, everybody is entitled to one of those and nobody has to agree with me on this . . but don't bother trying to argue with me about this please *g*

Posted by: Fortune Jan 20 2008, 08:39 PM

Uh huh.

Posted by: Jhaiisiin Jan 20 2008, 09:02 PM

Strangely, I agree with Stahl about one thing in particular. It seems to be a step backward instead of forward to suddenly adopt wireless. Being cyberneticly linked to a computer through a datajack was amazingly advanced. Doing the same through wi-fi (a signal that is VERY easily interrupted) seems like a dumb move. Maybe it's just me.

Beyond that, it's "to each their own" when I look at his other points.

Posted by: Ryu Jan 20 2008, 10:04 PM

The standard is and will be the AR. And you do not need DNI for that.

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jan 20 2008, 10:12 PM

[Continued Derail]

...applause. That is one of the most concise summations I have seen on this board (much better than the diatribe going on in the hijack of the original Game Level thread).

Yeah a lot of your points hit home for me as well. However, it goes deeper for me than the rules themselves.

About 2/3 the way into the first run of my Rhapsody in Shadow campaign 4th ed was released. I had high hopes of submitting RiS for publication when this occurred. I still finished the campaign but it seemed a hollow gesture. Everything I spent time writing after reading through the London Sourcebook, Germany Sourcebook, Shadows of Europe, & Shadows of Asia (Russia) suddenly seemed all for naught.

*Bang* it was now 2070. *Bang* Deckers and Riggers (a major facet of the campaign) were no longer unique. *Bang* the Matrix was now wireless and Cyberdecks now were dinosaurs just as mainframes are in RL today. Anyone, even a mage, could now get a top of the line commlink, programmes and agents. Beforehand, you had to be really good (and crafty) to own an Excalibur and be able to wield the dreaded Blackhammer. Prior to '64, runners were truly an "invisible" segment of the population. Credsticks were used as methods of payment & Fake IDs were only needed on a mission by mission basis. Following the crash, the Shadows (and I have said this before) no longer seemed like the shadows anymore.

The trouble was everyone I know seemed to flock to the new and abandon the old. Suddenly we were back to square one. None of the older supplements (save for a a couple of the total fluff ones maybe) were compatible because of the change to the mechanics. True the Core book was more comprehensive than earlier editions and I admire that, but there were a lot of things we had become so accustomed to which suddenly "disappeared". We've had to wait months, in some cases over a year, for the world to begin "fleshing out" again. Meanwhile that stack of SR3 books on my floor now looked more useful for propping up the coffee table that is missing a leg. (worth many times more than the coffee table they'd support). I shudder to think what is going on in the D&D community with WotC announcing their 4th ed as that game has more supplements/sourcebooks, most of which hardbound and therefore a more expensive (my copy of the Forgotten Realms core book listed for 49.95$)

It's not so much that the rules themselves are inherently bad (when kept in context of the new mechanic), it's more the total deviation that happened that made hundreds of dollars of material and hours upon hours of campaign development pretty much worthless that vexes me.

Yeah, I've been forced to succumb to pressure and pretty much realise If I want to keep playing SR I have to "cut the cord" so to say and join the "brave new post crash 2.0 world."

If there is any one facet I do not like in 4th, it is bringing in a "luck" factor that has such a sweeping effect. It's kind of like "Reset" on a videogame. In previous editions, you had one chance to keep a character alive when she faced certain death (and she had top burn all her Karma Pool and good karma to do so). Now she gets as many attempts to cheat death as she has Edge attribute, and she can buy that back with Karma. Even in D&D, you needed a lot to bring a character back from the dead whole and unscathed by the experience.

The one other thing that kind of irks me (and somewhat related to the OT) is how Adepts (my favourite next to Riggers) were crocked. For one, they were really not adjusted to fit the new scale (4 in the new = 6 in the old etc.). Few if any of the powers were adjusted accordingly in cost and a couple actually increased. Basically an Adept with an MA of 4 in 4th is pretty much the same as an adept with and MA of 4 in 3rd even though now she needs to spend a good chunk of BPs to even have an MA. Furthermore with the double whammy of having to both initiate and increase MA to gain new powers, this makes Adepts progress at worse than a snail's pace unless every mission is a Karma haul. Meanwhile Mages have a number of other ways to improve their primary abilities outside of initiation, from Spirit assistance to Foci, to tweaking spells, to overcasting. So in a sense, an Adept is much more of a "Karma whore" than a mage.

...OK, now I feel better.

End of rant...

Posted by: Fortune Jan 20 2008, 10:20 PM

Posted by: Glyph Jan 20 2008, 10:49 PM

overall, adepts actually do pretty well in SR4, although if you want to min-max them, you have to go about it differently than in SR3. Offensively, they have improved ability, weapon foci, and attunement for extra dice. Defensively, they have combat sense and mystic armor, and combat sense combined with counterstrike can give them even more offensive dice. Weapon foci and killing hands make them far more effective against spirits. Kinesics makes adepts hands-down the best faces, even if you don't stack it with cool resolve, improved ability, or tailored pheromes. They also have lots of powers oriented towards athletics and stealth, and lots of relatively cheap useful powers such as sustenance, nimble fingers, commanding voice, etc.

As always, they are better at specialist than generalist roles (which, given how SR4 rewards specialists in general, puts them in a good place).

The major changes are that initiative is more important, and that a point of Essense or two in bioware is a much more tempting prospect.

Posted by: knasser Jan 20 2008, 10:54 PM

Spoilered because everyone else is doing it...

Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 21 2008, 12:04 AM

yeah, i forgot to mention magical guys now being able to be almost as good at hacking as only the hacker should be . . but hey, you guys managed to rerail the thread *g*

Posted by: Fortune Jan 21 2008, 12:19 AM

Posted by: Fortune Jan 21 2008, 12:21 AM

Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 21 2008, 12:50 AM

you can? O.o
only if you allow improved ability for technical skills like decking or am i wrong there?

Posted by: ElFenrir Jan 21 2008, 01:04 AM

well, as far as i know in SR4(havn't played a hacker yet...played around with making one up), Adept Improved Ability works like a bloody charm with the non combat skills. Combat skills cost .5 points per level. Not terrible; but it'll cost you to toss on those three dice.

Improved Ability: Something Other Than Combat only cost .25 per die. Allowing a tech/face/whatnot adept to have stupidly high dice pools. Adepts these days work out even better as a non combatant. Sure, physads are still really good; but wow, those faces or techies.

and yeah, im sort of on the(ok, i AM on), the SR3 wagon as well. I like 4 and play it, but there are many things(touched on by a couple folks already) that im not too fond of.

Posted by: Cardul Jan 21 2008, 11:07 AM

Honestly, I think that Improved Ability is kind of a waste of power points. Attribute Boost, though, while short lived and causing a drain resist, is over-all better. If you have a magic of 4, and 2 ranks of Agility Boost, you will, on average, get 4 round(not initiative passes..rounds) of the boost, so, if say you need to switch from hand to hand to melee for some reason, or need to pull out your back up pistol, you have 2 extra dice to ALL of those.

However, I do agree, it would have been nice if they had lowered the Increased Reflexes so that it was 1 PP or even 1.5 PP per level. It is rediculously easy for Sammie to have higher initiative then it is for an Adept. Heck, I often wonder if that ability would stack with Synaptic Booster(in fact..one would almost rather go Synaptic Booster for 1 Essence and magic and 32 BP then use the Increase Reflexes ability)

Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 21 2008, 11:34 AM

as far as i remember the point of adept reflexes and bio reflexes stacking has been errataed as no once . . of course, i could be wrong . .

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jan 21 2008, 04:26 PM

Posted by: Whipstitch Jan 21 2008, 05:11 PM

See, I disagree with that thematically and mechanically. I actually think that Adepts are sitting pretty this edition and would be bordering upon broken if their powers were lowered in costs because if you did that they'd be less reliant on 'ware when as it now stands essence is one of the few limiters on their power. The second you lower the costs the second I make an even better cybered adept.

Plus, I really like the lessened emphasis on Magic Doe Not Mix With Technology doctrine currently in Fourth and that Adepts need to choose carefully. From a thetmatic perspective, I rather like how every darned Awakened character no longer has to ascribe to the hippy purity of body drek to develop their talents. There's going to be a lot of competitive sorts like the guys in Gladio who likely look for any edge they can get their hands on and take it; for some people it's being the best at what you do that matters most. There's bound to be some characters who see their magical talent as a means to an end rather than the whole journey, but as long as they put in the work to keep improving it shouldn't matter what their mindset is.

Frankly, I cyber up everyone, even my Mages, and believe people who think "Sensitive System isn't a real drawback, munchkin!" are rather naive and misguided since it basically means the characters in question are for all intents and purposes swearing off Attention Coprocessors, Radar Sensors, Cybereyes, Encephalons, SkillWires and Expert systems for the rest of their lives.

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jan 21 2008, 05:13 PM

...adepts should not be reliant on 'ware. What I'm saying is if you want to load up on augmentations, save yourself the BPs and build a mundane Sammy.

Posted by: Whipstitch Jan 21 2008, 05:16 PM

And if you want character classes who operate by clearly delineated philosophies and paths to power, go play that other game. In a very real sense the ability choose AND benefit from a wide set of abilities is closer to the core game designs than the magic/technology dichotomy.

Posted by: Jhaiisiin Jan 21 2008, 05:22 PM

Every character concept should stand on it's own. It shouldn't be required to pull from other aspects just to function appropriately. A Sammie shouldn't NEED magic to do his job. A Mage or Adept shouldn't NEED ware to do their jobs either. If the only way to make an Adept viable is the inclusion of 'ware, then the concept of the Adept is underpowered and unbalanced.

Posted by: Whipstitch Jan 21 2008, 05:24 PM

Adepts don't -need- 'ware to do their jobs unless they're taking on the pure combat monster role, so I consider that to be a bit of a straw man. You guys are treating character concepts as sancrosanct when that's just not so.

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jan 21 2008, 05:31 PM

...all I'm basically saying is that Adepts did not keep pace with the other "archetypes" in the "downscaling" of the power levels from 3rd ed to 4th and this is one of the issues I have with 4th ed. So we go back to 1st ed costs for improved reflexes which was 1 -2 -3 and take away the increase to Reaction. It wasn't unbalancing then and it certainly wouldn't be unbalancing now especially since most Characters will not be coming in with a 6 MA to save that last 25 BPs.

Yeah, I may be a little vehement on this as Adepts (like I mentioned) are one of my favourite archetypes.

Posted by: Ravor Jan 21 2008, 06:03 PM

Although I agree that whoever wrote up the Adept Rules didn't get the memo that "Four is the new Six" I strongly disagree that anyone should be able to stand on their own without implants, Shadowrun is a Cyberpunk game, hells, everyone Awakened or Sleeper should be required to trade little pieces of their souls in order to keep pace with technology.

And of course, they all need a pink mohawk in order to be in theme with the second half of the genre.

*Edit*

Of course as a disclaimer, although I personally love Mages, Adepts have always rubbed me the wrong way for some reason.

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jan 21 2008, 06:11 PM

...so, then why even bother having an Increased Reflexes power at all if it is supposedly more "cost effective" to do the same via augmentation?

Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 21 2008, 06:12 PM

'cause there are purists who think an adept should not have bio/cyber

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jan 21 2008, 06:21 PM

...I know. But the way it sounds we are more of a minority here than Humans in Salem TT before the second crash.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 21 2008, 06:27 PM

whoa whoa there buddy!
don't count me in with that lot *g*
i ain't no adept/magic purity guy.
one reason i would see to make the adept reflexes more expansive compared to cyber? 'cause they are farking hard to notice! . . so somebody sees he's magic . . so what? there is no way ever to find out what kind of powers he has . . maybe all that is just improved abilities or mystical armor or something . .

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jan 21 2008, 06:48 PM

...sorry, didn't mean to include any one in particular, 'we' was used in the more generic sense of the term.

Also one wouldn't know necessarily if a person was augmented with bio either unless they assensed them or had a dedicated bio scanner as wetware doesn't show up on a MAD scan either.

I believe also that enough hits on an assensing test would reveal the nature of the powers unless the Adept was an initiate and was masking.

Posted by: Whipstitch Jan 21 2008, 07:12 PM

I guess I'm just fine with the idea that meat does some things better than magic and vice versa.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 21 2008, 08:18 PM

especially since the advent of augmentation . . i still gleefully point out that the mundane version of traceless step and gliding is better than the adept version *g*

Posted by: Fortune Jan 21 2008, 08:34 PM

Posted by: Fortune Jan 21 2008, 08:36 PM

Posted by: Fortinbras Jan 21 2008, 08:57 PM

Posted by: ElFenrir Jan 21 2008, 09:02 PM

Slightly long musing going on, and im forgetting the spoiler tags for now.

Adepts(especially classic Physads; but techies and socialites, after they came around in the previous editions count to this too), did change a bit over the time, as we've been saying. Now, i always really liked adepts(and mages, and shamans, and even mystic adepts...and meat people, too...im not picky), but the creation process seems a little skewed toward adding bits of cyber more nowadays than it did.

Looking at it from a purely numerical standpoint; the old school Physad i usually saw placing resources rather far down on the Priority list(or in the Companion BP system, usually being happy with the 5 BP/20,000, occationaly splurging higher but not often); relying much more heavily on raw Attributes and Skills, taking them much higher up. It wasn't uncommon to see a Physad with Priority A Attributes; the 5's flat down the line(of course, tweaked to 6's in Quickness and Intelligence; the 4's went to Charisma and Willpower, with a nice 5 each in Body and Strength...unless they opted for the Massive Combat Pool and jacked Willpower up too, but you know), and priority C Skills(24/34 depending on SR2 or 3). They had 6 points; but especially in SR2 those points got eaten to hell fast with the overinflated costs(they were at least somewhat fixed..ok, a LOT fixed...in SR3. Thank the gods they changed that utter ridiculousness of purchasing Reaction and Initative seperately.)

Anyhoo, whatever kind of unarmed/armed/throwing/whatnot Physad you made; it was rare, in my experience anyway(yours may be different), to see one take any sort of ware; even though one point of essence wasn't THAT bad. It did take away one or two whole powers, though...and since the stuff COST more essence...and cost alot more nuyen...it just wasn't worth it. Even with Geasa(which was probably the best way to nail the Reflexes...my old gaming buddy compared it to simply getting Alphaware Reflexes and i tended to agree), it was rare for an adept to muddy up his body. (Now, mages, on the other hand...especially Hermetics, ive seen get some implants quite often, then and now. The wonders of high Resources and a Power Focus to hold you over til that Initation. But that's a story for another thread.)

Anyhow, fast forward to SR4. Now, Attributes have a harsher cap. But the bar is lower, though...what used to be 5/6/5/4/6/4 in attributes, is now more like 4/4/4/3/3/4/3/3. (You can't get ''30'' attributes anymore. If you do a technical breakdown, it comes out to a maximum of about priority B, or 27 in the old system.) In addition, the Adept doesn't get a Geas bonus...AND must buy his Magic. (He also has the Edge score to worry about, depending. Though someone used to playing the old way and earning it over time, might well just leave it at the minimum and add to it later, like they did before.) On the bright side, powers are generally cheaper(except for those blasted Reflexes. Sure, Wired Reflexes are still Essence hogs but BOY are they much cheaper now. Adepts don't have that, though...so ive seen many just forgo them.

Then adepts realized(yeah, you all know this buy know, i know ) hey, bioware is pretty light on the Essence. Instead of paying 65 BP for Magic 6 and using up 2 points for Reflex 1, I can use those 25 points, get Synaptic Booster 1 with the nuyen(125,000 is 25 BP), have a magic 5...which gets dampened down to 4(if i recall, magic would return to 5 if they got the bioware removed..since bio wasn't permanently damaging to the system. Under the old system, anyway. I STILL dont know all the little nuances of SR4 yet.) Plus, he's got a little more of that Essence point to burn, with some nuyen, for some muscle augmentation and toner(so he doesn't need to buy those expensive attribute increases. Hell, even in the old system those added up.)

Hell, he'd still have enough essence to pick up that Reflex Recorder(skill), for a combat skill of choice. And then he can use his 4 points for whatever, with his attributes taken care of a bit more, and one skill with a bonus already, and his initative boosted.

Hell, some adepts might even buy up the magic of 6, and then forgo 20 points of their Attributes/other stuff to load some Resources to buy up other attributes for a full 2 points of essence. Remember, it costs 40 BPs to get Agility 5. It costs 40 BPs to get Agility 4(6) if you pick up a couple of levels of Muscle Toner with that last 10 BPs(and have another 20,000+ left to spend on Muscle Augmentation).

Erm, im not sure exactly what this turned into. I guess the entire thing was ''hmm...rather interesting how the physad changed over time''. Others might disagree numerically, but this is some stuff ive gathered over time.

I won't get too far into the Face adept; except to say that yes, there IS a benefit to picking up a couple of Tailored Pheremone levels.

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jan 21 2008, 09:19 PM

Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 21 2008, 09:31 PM

ok, that's the second thing of SR4 i find good . . rules for late awakening . . even though you still can not explain cyber in there because cyber taken before awakening will weaken magical attribute and thus effectively stop you from awakening <.< . .
but into mages i would basically cram everything that helps save karma later on . . mnemonic enhancer in 3rd, the adept power of linguistics, and that one meta technic

Posted by: Glyph Jan 21 2008, 09:39 PM

Posted by: ThreeGee Jan 21 2008, 09:40 PM

Posted by: Fortune Jan 21 2008, 09:43 PM

Posted by: Fortune Jan 21 2008, 09:51 PM

Posted by: Glyph Jan 21 2008, 09:54 PM

Posted by: ElFenrir Jan 21 2008, 10:32 PM

Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 21 2008, 10:39 PM

exactly my sentiments . . there is no such mthing as a munchkin character in a world where you die if you're not the best you can be . . and even then you still die if you're simply STILL not good enough . . One-Trick-Ponies have every right of existance concerning the WORLD of shadowrun . . even if they play boring like hell, if you're doing it wrong/right *g*

Posted by: Whipstitch Jan 21 2008, 11:30 PM

If ThreeGee would stop for a second and take a good hard look at shadowrun characters and the world they live in, I think it'd be pretty hard for him not to admit that there is a pretty good amount of 'ware that makes perfect sense within the context of the setting for even a 3 or 4 magic wage mage to have installed.

For example, let's say you've got a talented young wage mage fresh out of college and he gets recruited by AresSpace. He's a hard working young kid, but he's got average attributes and is only professional level in his magical skills and is untrained in everything else; the only "amazing" thing about him is a magic of 4 and his family's long pedigree of being stable, reliable employees. Take that kid, slap in a Cerebral Booster 2, SkillWire 2, Trauma Dampers, tricked out rating 2 Cybereyes and suddenly you've got a star employee. Sure, it costs more than 72,000¥ once the costs of a pair of rating 2 ActiveSofts are factored in, but in exchange you get a mage who can cast well even in poor weather conditions, tosses 7 dice in both the Hardware and Aeronautics mechanics skills before high quality tools and AR schematics are factored in plus he routinely soaks the drain from Force 3 spirits completely, which is pretty damn good when you consider how useful the Guard and Movement powers are to a company whose entire business model hinges on the ability to speed things up to escape velocity and safely test new aerotechnologies. And that's just what you get with an almost painfully average career mage. The corporations efficiently do some amazingly difficult stuff on a routine basis in the Shadowrun universe, and if you think cybered mages aren't a part of that, then frankly I don't know what to tell you.

Posted by: Ravor Jan 22 2008, 01:35 AM

Well, I'd have to strongly disagree with the idea of one-trick-ponies and huge dicepools.

Posted by: Glyph Jan 22 2008, 02:27 AM

Why do people always bring up one-trick ponies and huge dice pools as if they were complementary? It is very easy to have a huge dice pool, and still have a well-rounded character. Even maxed-out builds like my pornomancer build or Cain's Mr. Lucky build are still functional characters outside of their specialties.

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jan 22 2008, 02:47 AM

...whether or not a player decides to optimise an adept through artificial means of augmentation is pretty much up to them and I would not stop a someone from doing so in any of my campaigns as long as they followed the rules in doing so. Heck, I have a Reporter Adept /"sort of Face" character who has a fair amount of sense and headware because it fits in with her occupation and some of it (such as vidcams, audio recording and signal transmission) cannot be duplicated by the Improved Senses power.

The point for someone such as myself who would like to play a "straight" Adept is that the resulting character, no matter how well designed, will be inferior to a mundane who invests the same number of BPs into resources for augmentation. 45 BPs (cost of the Adept quality and MA of 5) translates to 225,000 , which can go a long way for building a tough combatant. Yes an Adept can eventually eclipse the Sammy but it takes a long time and a lot of Karma to do so. This is why I'm beginning to feel that the "classic" physad in Shadowrun may have sadly become yesterday's news.

Posted by: Ravor Jan 22 2008, 03:10 AM

Glyph

Because the majority of huge dicepool builds that tend to pop up aren't well rounded characters that could thrive without a team of specialists for support. I don't remember The Pornomancer off the top of my head, but Mr Lucky does seem to be one of the few that appears to be a viable character. (Not one that I would ever allow in my games, but viable none the less.)

Kyoto Kid

You see, I agree with your basic points with the exception that I personally see it as a good thing, any Awakened character going the "pure route" should be inferior to a mundane character cybering up, not for game balance reasons, but because I believe it fits with the Cyberpunk genre.

Now, if there was an actual cost to a character's soul that came from wielding mojo as opposed to simply winning life's lottery then I'd agree that the two options should be fairly equal.

Posted by: Glyph Jan 22 2008, 03:38 AM

As far as the specialist vs. generalist debate, I think specialists will tend to do better and get better paying jobs. And a team of specialists is basically one of the core game concepts.

That said, you can take specialization too far. I feel that one of the litmus tests for a character is being able to say that this character could have survived, and made a living, prior to meeting the other characters. Also, since the game involves social interactions, legwork, sneaking or infiltrating, and combat, having a character who only has skills in one of those areas sharply limits your character.

It is not hard to get high dice pools for certain specialties, though. For combat, for example, you can have someone with Agility: 5, muscle toner: 2, skill: 6 with specialization, a reflex recorder, and a smartlink, for 18 dice without hard-maxing anything, being an elf, or being an adept. That leaves you with plenty of resources available to be good in other areas.

People newer to the game can make specialists who are too limited in other areas (although it is also even easier to overgeneralize to the point of uselessness), but in my experience, specialists can still be well-rounded outside of their specialty, and hyper-specialists can still be functional outside of their specialty.

Posted by: Jaid Jan 22 2008, 03:53 AM

the cybered adept does lose out on a few things actually.

for example, a non-cybered adept will have a higher magic score. this may not sound all that great, but for some powers it is actually quite useful (for example, attribute boost) it also means they will have a higher cap for the rating of their powers... which is much more likely to come up if you use the infusion metamagic, of course

so not the most amazing thing ever, but choosing not to dilute your magic does have some benefits.

Posted by: Riley37 Jan 22 2008, 10:03 AM

Another thing to consider in the balance between sammie, augmented adept, and unaugmented adept: astral perception can matter a lot. On my second session of SR4, my sammie got attacked by mosquito spirits (that had been stirred up in the first session), and immediately called the team's adept for help, because none of his electronics were useful against spirit ambushes.

Improved Attribute seems effective for taking the last point of a stat within normal range. Eg if you've already allocated the BP for STR 5 and MAG 4, you could pay 25 more BP for STR 6, or you could pay 10 more BP for MAG 5 and turn that fifth point of MAG into STR 5(6). If BOD is a priority, then it's one of the few ways to raise that stat; the only augmentation I can think of that raises BOD is the parathyroid. Trolls have BOD 10/15; is 10 MAG worth of Improved Attribute, or 8 MAG of IA and -1 MAG due to essence loss from the parathyroid, the only way to actually get that maxed-out 15 BOD? If so, then it must be darn rare.

Posted by: ElFenrir Jan 22 2008, 10:59 AM

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jan 22 2008, 04:13 PM

...ElFenrir, thank you.

I've observed the same since 1st ed, and agree, that in 3rd they were probably at their best. The one things that did give them a bit of an edge, particularly a melee based adept as the original KK (#103) was the counterattack [not to be confused with the 4th ed counterstrike power]. She survived very well with only a 2d6 initiative because of this and a fairly high skill + combat pool (ahhh, for the old version of the Combat Sense power). In some ways she was more dangerous when on the defensive and actually could use an opponent's higher speed against them (as they had more IPs to spread their combat pool over. Because the Improved Reflexes in 3rd ed worked like Wired reflexes (adding also to Reaction) she was also a tad quicker.

I just feel that in the case of the "classic" Physad, magic shouldn't take a seat in the back of the Archetype bus just because SR is Cyberpunk as magic is so ingrained in the game to begin with. Actually magic in the form of Spirits, Awakened Critters, & Spells tend to frequently take the "driver's seat" (as has been discussed Ad nauseam in the "Magic vs. Mundane" threads that pop up from time to time).

...my two zloty's worth

Posted by: Whipstitch Jan 22 2008, 04:46 PM

Again, I rather feel like asking so what? Nine times out of ten you can make a Samurai better in several specializations by figuring out a way to make him an Adept, so I think it's rather hard to argue that magic is taking a backseat in this one; one could easily argue that BOTH archetypes are being "denigrated", it just depends on your perspective. The fact of the matter is as a pure adept you're for all intents and purposes giving up the option of really progressing through nuyen, and don't know what to tell you if you don't expect that to slow you down.

Posted by: Ravor Jan 22 2008, 05:15 PM

Not much I can add to Whipstitch's post, other then to say that I disagree with the idea that magic does take the "driver's seat" in the from of Spirits/Spells/Critters if all of the rules are being properly applied and the DM assumes that the corps don't pay retarded children to design their countermeasures, if anything runners are usually better off choosing the mundane over the mystical if both options are possible.

Posted by: pbangarth Jan 24 2008, 05:43 AM

There is one, I guess fluff, aspect that I haven't seen people address yet.

As it is today, and as I see the Shadowrun future being depicted, there are vast areas of the world in which the cutting edge of technology is not available, for financial reasons if nothing else. Even the allegedly ubiquitous internet of today is inaccessible in many parts of the world. Much less high-tech medical facilities.

On the other hand, there are precious few places on Earth where the mana wouldn't flow. So, there should be large populations from which it would be less likely that technologically enhanced people would come, but yet magically enhanced people would be as likely to come as anywhere else. Therefore, there should be some places where the people who stand out (shadowrunners?) would more likely be magically enhanced than technologically enhanced. It is from just such a population that you might find runners who have opted for the purely magical route, despite the 'min-max' advantages of mixed techno-mages.

Once their talents do stand out, they would be drawn to centres of intrigue and commerce, there to interact with the full range of runners. It seems to me there is lots of reason for there to be people who have chosen or have chosen for them a path without technology.

Doesn't that make sense?

Posted by: Ravor Jan 24 2008, 05:55 AM

Sure, it makes sense, provided that the "pure" Awakened realizes that by not embracing technology he is simply weighing himself down.

It then becomes a roleplaying issue whether or not his identity is tied up enough in his "purity" that he is willing to accept being "second tier" in his new stomping grounds or if he too is willing to evolve and embrace technology in order to keep SOTA.

Posted by: pbangarth Jan 24 2008, 06:31 PM

Alright then, Ravor, but is there no room in the Shadowrun universe you espouse for the character (not player) who sees that technology is limiting in the long run, and chooses to bide his time and grow his magic into power?

I understand that having a big bang right away is good for business, but everyone, no matter how tough, has to pick the fights he can win. An astute character would do that whether he is cybered or pure magic. So, if you are correct and the pure-magic beginner is at a disadvantage in the beginning, then I guess he would have to take the smaller jobs for longer. This kind of decision is made thousands of times every day by businesses large and small.

This may or may not be attractive to the player of that character, but game-years down the road, when his character rocks, it may not be so hard to take.

Posted by: Whipstitch Jan 24 2008, 07:26 PM

I doubt that either I or Ravor would argue with that. There's no law anywhere set in stone that Adepts can't try and shoot for purity in order to amp powers as much as possible, it just takes a long time to pay off.

Posted by: DireRadiant Jan 24 2008, 07:27 PM

There is the One True Way for all Adepts.

All MUST Follow it.

Now can some remind which is the One True Way?

No arguments please.

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jan 25 2008, 02:35 AM

...not wanting ot go into frenzy of "he said she said" quote snippets

I had a response pretty much written up during my lunch break but had to get back to work before proofing and submitting it. So had a little more time to think as well.

On the subject of Adepts, yes I am a bit jaded. Over the past three revisions (prior to 4th) they have been my favourite archetype (hence why my longest running character is one). ElFenrir said it right in that Adepts have gone through more changes from edition to edition than any of the other main archetypes. Originally the Physical Adept appeared not in the core rules but as an supplemental archetype in the first Grimiore. They were also designed as primarily a combat oriented character. It was not until late in the run of 3rd ed that we saw the Social, Artistic, and Techno adepts (SOTA '64).

I guess my one beef is that of all the archetypes (mages included) the Adept in 4th ed has the worst progression within her concept. As I previously mentioned, even Mages have a several other options for enhancing their abilities without raising Magic Attribute. The Adept basically has two: Geasa (and again thank you Fortune for pointing my omission out), and Initiation + MA improvement. Given there was no upward adjustment in the suggested karma award from previous editions the Adept's "slow track" has turned into a literal crawl. Everyone likes to have their character improve and grow as they play. However when it takes between a month or two of weekly sessions to see any core improvement, it can be somewhat discouraging from the player's perspective.

In light of this, I can see why there is such an interest in going the "Hybrid Way" (for lack of a better term) of the augmented Adept. Whipstitch made a good point for this:

"...as a pure adept you're for all intents and purposes giving up the option of really progressing through nuyen..."

Agreed. Even in the previous editions it was slower going for an awakened character as she needed to initiate to improve in her core abilities at an increasing Karma rate each time. However it has gone to the extreme in 4th with the added cost of increasing one's Magic Attribute as well. Granted, since MA is now purchased at Chargen like the other attributes, it would be hard to find another mechanic to handle Adept character improvement. Our group had considered allowing Adepts to just initiate and choose between a Metamagic technique or an additional power point. As per the rules, the Adept could initiate up to her current MA after which she would need to increase the attribute to progress any further. Also any powers based on MA for duration or rating purposes would limited to the characters "real" MA. Yeah, an OK "fix", but yet another houserule nonetheless to muddy the waters further.

Posted by: Ravor Jan 25 2008, 02:41 AM

Of course there is room in the Sixth World for people who believe that by holding onto the "purity" of their magic they will someday reap rewards beyond measure, I just don't believe that their espoused belief is true from either a rules or fluff standpoint. Nor should it be given that Shadowrun is in the Cyberpunk genre.


Basically it's the same reason that I scoff at the various threads complaining that magic is more powerful then tech because by RAW it is uncapped, in a "normal" campaign I just don't see characters ever earning the Karma needed. (As a disclaimer, in my games I run a Hard Cap on Magic, but then again I also houserule Magic Loss rather heavily as well.)

Posted by: Siege Jan 25 2008, 05:15 AM

My character builds were either samurai or generalist adepts.

They weren't as task specific, but it usually meant a lot more play time because my character was the one plugging the gaps between the specialists.

And I liked the notion that the character didn't spring from a vat, mission-specific and perfectly synched to his assigned duties. "You have a PhD in physics...and you're driving a cab? What the frag?"

-Siege

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jan 25 2008, 03:52 PM

...sometimes though that PhD isn't worth much more than the paper it's printed on. I know I have degrees in several fields that are pretty much "go nowhere" occupations and am currently schlepping data at a shipping firm. But I digress...

Siege, you hit the nail on the head as to why I prefer playing adepts over wireheads. Oh, I've had my share of sams, riggers & deckers, but there is something about adepts that I find more attractive. Part of it is the stealth factor, unless you are assensed nobody knows your abilities or potential. You don't set off scanners & you have no outward signs you are tougher than the average Joe on the street.

Posted by: Siege Jan 27 2008, 08:51 AM

Don't get me started on over-education and employment.

Adepts have a reasonable number of advantages, depending on the campaign.

The biggest advantage for me is the simplicity of construction - Man and Machine was the beginning of the end in terms of Samurai for me. Primarily because building one was almost as much of a headache as a decker or a rigger.

-Siege

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jan 27 2008, 09:25 PM

...OK last night for grins (and being bored), I took my favourite adept and worked up an alternate version of her sacrificing 1 PP and 22 BPs in resources just to see what would happen.

Using bioware only (so she still could slip past scanners) I dropped the Boosted Reflexes power, her Bike Skill, Increased Pain Tolerance I quality, and 1 pt of Strength and gave her the following:

Synaptic Booster 1 .5ess
Muscle Augmentation .2 ess
Synthcardium 2 .2 ess
Moderate Biosculpting .1 ess

The last augmentation fits with her backstory and in a way would validate her going the bio route anyway as it would have reduced her MA by 1. In her background I mentioned that she received a fair amount of cosmetic modification, effectively changing her ethnic appearance from Anglo to Japanese. This was before the release of Augmented and is now covered by Moderate Biosculpting.

OK so what this does is:

Free up an additional 1.25 power points (as I also had to drop one level of Improved Physical Ability in Gymnastics) which went to the following powers:

Improved Sense: Low Light Vision
Combat Sense 1 (improves her odds from one avg hit to two on a simple dodge test)
Enhanced Perception 2 (she now has a DP of 10 for sight and 12 for hearing perception tests).

This also gave her back the Athletics Skill Group I originally wanted her to have albeit at 3 instead of 4 (though effectively she is at a rating 5 with the Synthcardium.). She now has ten dice in Running (very useful for her rollerblades), Climbing, Swimming, and 12 in Gymnastics. This is in keeping with the original concept in that she was supposed to be an all around accomplished athlete.

The one thing that does deviate a bit from her background is the loss of her Increased Pain Tolerance which came from the mistreatment she received.

Final observation

So OK, it I can see it does make for a better (in her case more rounded) adept. Of course to improve her powers or add any more implants (like additional Synaptic boosting), she would need to raise her MA again (6 - augmented back to 5). However when she goes to raise her MA after that (7 - augmented back to 6 or 5 if she continues in the "way of the burnout"), she will now need to initiate as well, adding an additional 13 Karma to the cost. In this way it is kind of like borrowing on your future, you got to pay the piper sometime.

Posted by: Glyph Jan 27 2008, 09:39 PM

I'll admit that, like Siege, I like adepts a lot because they are so much simpler to construct than a sammie is. And even if you go the bioware-enhanced route, one or two points of bioware doesn't complicate it that much.

As far as "pure" adepts go, I guess I don't worry so much about whether they are the equivalent of a sammie or not - I just get Magic 5 or 6, get improved reflexes: 2, then have 2 or 3 more power points to play with. And what I like best about Street Magic isn't the cool new combat powers, but all of the cool miscellaneous powers, like sustenance, or linguistics, or multi-tasking.

Posted by: Whipstitch Jan 27 2008, 10:56 PM

One of the nice things about improved reflexes is that as expensive as it is it doesn't do anything to lower your magic cap or dilute the maximum rating of your other adept powers. This is why I prefer Synaptics for adepts with powers like Improved Ability: Gymnastics (During chargen Improved ability is effectively capped at Rating 3 due to the 1.5 modified skill limitation) and Nimble Fingers if I'm going the combat monster route and light attribute boosting bioware and Improved Reaction if I'm taking a character who's more likely to rely on powers like Pain Relief, Iron Will, Power Throw and Spell Resistance, which are nice abilities that work best with either a high magic or when taken at a high rating.

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jan 28 2008, 01:15 AM

...I thought I read (or heard) somewhere though that an adept can only take up to half her current skill rating (rounded down) in Improved Ability. So for example, the Short One having Athletics Group at 3 only allows her to take Improved Gymnastics 1, or can she take the power at rating 3?

...now I am a bit confused.

Posted by: Whipstitch Jan 28 2008, 01:23 AM

It depends on your current rating. I just meant that the "Only one skill at 6" creation limitation means you can take at most Improved Ability: 3 in one skill at creation and are stuck with rating 2 or less for everything else.

Posted by: Glyph Jan 28 2008, 02:06 AM

The good news, though, is that you will still have 2 more points than a sammie ever can, since reflex recorders are the only skill-boosting 'ware they can get (although there is a lot of other 'ware that gives dice pool bonuses). And it's good to be able to save the points, since improved reflexes are so much more important in SR4 melee.

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jan 28 2008, 02:17 AM