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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ The Star and (forbidden) Cyberware

Posted by: Elve Jan 20 2008, 07:30 PM

What happens if the Star (or whoever else) catches you with the lots of restricted or even forbidden ware you have implemented into your body?

They can't just release you some times later, since you in fact would be illegal...

Do they remove it? Who pays for that? You of course...
Other ideas?

Posted by: hyzmarca Jan 20 2008, 07:59 PM

There was once a fellow in my home town who was arrested with a semi-truck full of marijuna. Due to an illegal search, he was set free. The police informed him that he could pick us truck (still full of marijuna) up at the impound lot, free of charge. Wisely, he did not do so.

Letting them go with their illegal cyberware intact has one huge advantage, the police can arrest them again 5 minutes later and charge them with possessing the same illegal cyberware.

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jan 20 2008, 08:06 PM

...you're SINless, you have no rights, you have F legality ware...

QUOTE (SR IV p. 259)

SINless Consequences
If a SINless person is arrested, several things can happen.
It is not uncommon for the SINless to be horribly abused,
locked away, or â€œdisappeared,â€? as they have no rights to speak
of and no datatrail to even prove they exist.

With the public and administrative fire that the Star is coming under in Seattle right now, this could be more of a possibility than yanking the ware, giving the offender a Criminal SIN & tossing him back out on the street again.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 20 2008, 08:10 PM

and if you indeed have a SIN and it's not just the usual criminal one, then they will most likely not jnak it out but probably do some surgery to keep you from using it while still leaving it in your body . .

Posted by: kzt Jan 20 2008, 08:12 PM

He should have shown up, opened the back door and been shocked, just shocked, by how it got full of MJ while in police custody and insisted the police remove it from his truck.

Posted by: imperialus Jan 20 2008, 08:40 PM

QUOTE (kzt)

He should have shown up, opened the back door and been shocked, just shocked, by how it got full of MJ while in police custody and insisted the police remove it from his truck.

You forgot to preface that with "Mr Blackadder Sir! I have a Cunning Plan!"

The way I've always dealt with it is to assume that the Star is chronically corrupt. A tidy chunk of

will get them to turn a blind eye, unless they're also after you for something else that's bigger (grand theft, murder ect.), or you happen to get picked up at some point when they're trying to crack down on illegal cyber specifically.

A rule of thumb that I've used in the past is to total up the value of the illegal/unlicenced ware and set the bribe of 5% of that. This is enough to make all but the wealthiest of sams feel the pinch but it's not likely to ruin them either. This works for other illegal gear too if you don't want to take it away or get into a firefight but want to remind the runners that they aren't alpha dogs.

Posted by: Jack Kain Jan 20 2008, 09:03 PM

It might also depend on the type of forbidden ware. I'm quite sure a grenade launcher built into your cyberarm would generate more of a thus then the tailored pheromones.

Some ware however may be illegal to have installed but its legal to have it already as long as it isn't a weapon.
As the forbidden status can vary from country to country. Weapon ware is easily though you would be short a limb. But the forbidden bioware would be much more complicated.
"Sorry sir I can't make that trip the UCAS my thyroid gland is illegal there"

Posted by: Jhaiisiin Jan 20 2008, 09:16 PM

I remember in SR3 (2?), it mentioned that security people often knew how to disable specific cyberware types. If that's still possible, they could disable your cyber-gun, and mark it down on paper, thereby fulfilling their requirement.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 20 2008, 09:54 PM

there's no actual way to disable any cyberware at all, short of invasive surgery . . there are those cutresy little manacles that electro-shock you if you activate certain cyber-systems . . but there's ways around that if you can't simply resist the damage. .
Illegal bioware might be a bigger Problem, but nothing short of a genetic test will detect most bioware anyway, so most of the times they are simply not going to find it . . if you're lucky they won't even LOOK for it, once they found your cyber-gear, because they could just as easy assume that that is all . .

Posted by: FriendoftheDork Jan 20 2008, 10:00 PM

QUOTE (Jhaiisiin)

Yeah I remember using something like that myself, except it was supposed to be temporary. I suspect it's possible to disable cyberware permanently though, or require more surgery to fix it again.

Alot of runners probably just refuse to be caught by the Star in the first place, as they are illegal themselves. In that case, bribery could work. Not that Lone Star go around arresting everyone with illegal ware all the time, I suspect they only do it if some street sammie walks around a fine neighbourhood with obvious ware, or they arrest a runner for some other reason.

Posted by: Jhaiisiin Jan 20 2008, 10:01 PM

I'll have to see if I can find the reference for it (I know it's not in SR4), but I know I remember reading that cyberware was disabled upon entering a certain area... can't remember if it was the Salish Sidhe council lands, a specific building or what it was, but I know I read it.

Course, as this is the SR4 forum, that makes it kinda irrelevant, huh?

Posted by: Whipstitch Jan 20 2008, 10:01 PM

I wouldn't go so far as to say invasive surgery; there's probably overrides that can let you go through the 'wares wireless to deactivate it in the case of things like wired reflexes as well as manacles that can block off the ports for your spurs, but something like bone lacing and dermal plating just kind of sits there and does its job merely by existing, which is probably part of the reason why such things aren't legal.

Posted by: Jhaiisiin Jan 20 2008, 10:05 PM

For clarification, what I do remember only seemed to apply to cyberlimbs and other "external" powered 'ware. Skillwires, Wired reflexes and the like were not something that could be deactivated, but apparently they could affect your limbs to keep you from doing anything drastic (in theory, obviously).

Then again, a smart runner would set the standard deactivation setup with a quick bypass when the ware was installed in the firs place. That way his teammates could flip a nifty switch, thereby removing the lovely restriction placed on them by security.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 20 2008, 10:07 PM

i'm not too sure about how much that has changed, but bonelacing was legality P(permit) in SR3 except for Titan-Bones which got an R(restricted) . . and all Dermal-Tech had the P Legality, as it is only there to defend yourself . .

Posted by: Fortinbras Jan 21 2008, 07:17 AM

In the old(SR@ & 3) system a lot of the Class B and C cyberware carried mostly heavy fines, depending on the country, in which case no corporation in their right mind would take it away on the off chance they could arrest you and fine you again.

In fact, as that would be eating into profits, it would be illegal for a publicly traded company not to do everything they can to make as much money as they can regardless of the consequence, unless that action was more illegal than violating anti-trust laws.

However, using today's legal system as an example, if you did get caught with Class A or Class C cyberware in the UCAS(if legality rules haven't changed much since SR3) and you couldn't bribe enough people and ended up doing your time, when you got out you would be given a parole officer.
The PO would then enroll you in some type of rehab program to get your illegal cyberware removed with a payment plan by a certain date. If you choose not to have the stuff taken out, your PO would then report you and you'd be running from the Star again, or going back to jail.

While the Hippocratic oath would prevent any doctor from removing cyberware without your consent, the system just makes it impossible for you not to comply with them without going to jail.
The closest modern equivalent I can think of is a court ordered installment of a breathalyser on your car after a DWI or a judge ordering you to go to AA or Na meetings.

The main thing I would keep in mind is that the modern judicial system is run on money. Criminologists call it the "prison industrial complex" and it is very profitable to some and detrimental to others.
Now multiply that by the fact that the 2070 justice system is legally required to make a profit.

I would have any game in which the characters have to deal with the issue be more pressed to either come up with a great sum of money, or do a run for a sub-contracted rehabilitation company that is more concerned about undermining a competing organization than actual rehabilitation. Something like that.

Just keep in mind there is little actual justice in the Sixth World.

Posted by: paws2sky Jan 21 2008, 05:36 PM

Elve, I would suggest going with whatever furthers the plot/campaign/etc. rather than being very strict. Different people will handle the situation differently.

If the character is a genuine problem (pain in the ass, annoying, brokenly powerful), they may never see the light of day again. That's a heavy handed way to deal with problem characters, but its legitimate enough, especially if you didn't railroad the character(s) into the situation that caused them to get caught. In other words, if they were stupid, its their own fault.

If you want the charcter to be out of play for a while or lose the F grade item, you could do a few different things. Perhaps LS is looking to test out a new toxin/simsense/etc. technology that can be used to disable certain specific pieces of cyberware. So, the LS doctors inject the character with a series of chemicals (or whatever) that permanently disable his/her Wired Reflexes, for instance. Other nasty experiments may include:

a genetically modified flesh-eating bacteria that targets bioware implants or muscle replacement
a hot sim/BTL treatment that renders the character incapable of dealing with violence of any kind. Even making the character incapabel of defending himself if attacked. (a la A Clockwork Orange)
a brand new, shiny cortex or kink bomb. Or perhaps they have a new implanted pain inducer that can be used to control their behavior if they get out of line.
a new bioware implant the releases a steady dose of toxins. As long as the character comes back for their weekly/monthly/whatever treatment, the toxins won't accumulate enough to be a problem...

If the character getting caught is a problem for the campaign, you might want to play up the corruption angle to enable the character to get back out on the street again.

Would a sufficiently large bribe get the character his/her freedom?
Does s/he need to agree to do an off-the-books job for someone at the precinct? Or the DA's office? Or maybe someone down at City Hall?

Also consider that LS is still a corporation. They may need runners to do some dirty work for them. Maybe the precinct captain has a grudge against a criminal that's hiding in a corporate enclave. His boys can't go in because of extraterritoriality, but a runner team could try and pull an extraction in exchange for their freedom.

If you're into comic books, maybe check out some of DC's Suicide Squad series for ideas.

Posted by: Shrike30 Jan 21 2008, 09:13 PM

QUOTE (Fortinbras)

While the Hippocratic oath would prevent any doctor from removing cyberware without your consent, the system just makes it impossible for you not to comply with them without going to jail.

The number of doctors who actually take the Hippocratic oath in 2073 is probably limited. I'm also willing to believe that you could easily find a doctor today who would be willing do non-consensual surgery on a known criminal and murderer to remove a blade he's somehow managed to implant in his left arm.

"Consent" is nowhere near as cut and dry as the general public likes to think. I'm an EMT... almost daily, I transport non-voluntary patients (people who have not consented to the treatment they are recieving), and while many of those are psych patients (who aren't legally able to give consent, due to their mental status), a big chunk of them are prisoners.

Posted by: Calabim Jan 21 2008, 10:09 PM

Without insurance you can't "easily" find a doctor to do anything. I'm speaking as an uninsured American. I have problems picturing an uninsured criminal getting even an asprian.

That being said I have used a back yard dentist. However he was not easy to find nor was he a "licensed" dentist.

Posted by: DTFarstar Jan 22 2008, 03:12 AM

You could always get sent to jail for a little while, Calabim. While we may not have national health care the state/federal prison is legally required to provide health care to its' inmates. I know someone (indirectly) who got sent away for like 3 months for some minor crime to get his 4 root canals done for free.

Chris

Posted by: DTFarstar Jan 22 2008, 03:13 AM

You might also want to change "without insurance" to "without insurance or large sums of liquid assets." Money make-a de world go round.

Chris

Posted by: Calabim Jan 22 2008, 04:35 AM

My "dentist" learned his trade in prison. You mean to say I am only a simple possession charge from health care. Sweet. If i didn't like pooping in private I would so go with that.

Posted by: djinni Jan 22 2008, 05:14 AM

QUOTE (Stahlseele)

there's no actual way to disable any cyberware at all, short of invasive surgery . .

send wireless signal to any internal piece of cyberware to have it turn off.
since its internal there isn't a hardware switch to turn it back on.

for external cyberware they can simply remove the hardware switch that allows you to turn it back on by filling it in with epoxy.

quick easy and simple

Posted by: Jack Kain Jan 22 2008, 07:18 AM

QUOTE (djinni @ Jan 21 2008, 11:14 PM)

QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jan 20 2008, 04:54 PM)

there's no actual way to disable any cyberware at all, short of invasive surgery . .

Umm cyberware has DNI connections the brain simply turns it back on and possibly turns off the wireless access while its at it.
And anyone with ilegal cyberware sure has hell shouldn't be stupid enough to have the wireless access on.

Most cyberware is either always active such as say dermal plating or muscle replacement. Or is controlled from the brain. Cyberlimbs, wired reflexes.

A couple exception would include a cortex bomb which may well have no DNI control, a datalock and perhaps a few others.

So once again there is no way to disable cyberware with out some sort of surgery or mechanically operation on the ware. (such as removing parts from a cyberlimb).

And removing a simple part is rather stupid. If the guy was able to get the ware installed to begin with he's bound to be able to get that one part replaced.

Posted by: Ravor Jan 22 2008, 04:49 PM

>>>>> If the fragging slot can't pay his bribe, err ... fine ... first we fit him with a shock collar and use him as a star in troll prison porn, then we cut him open and rip out his 'ware. Of course if he can't pay our "generious" fee up front then we might have to remove a few minor organs in order to recoup our loses, hell you can't expect us to run at a lost. <<<<< - Detective MacQuin

Posted by: mfb Jan 22 2008, 05:38 PM

i don't think it'd be more difficult than just going in and removing the DNI interface from the 'ware, and plugging the hole with some sort of permanent non-toxic epoxy. for most 'ware, that's outpatient surgery. the criminal, once he gets out of jail or whatever, has a choice between having a street doc go in and chip away the epoxy so he can get a new DNI module installed, or having a street doc go in and remove the 'ware so he can sell it for parts to offset the cost of a new implant.

Posted by: Fortinbras Jan 22 2008, 06:38 PM

QUOTE (Shrike30)

QUOTE (Fortinbras @ Jan 21 2008, 12:17 AM)

While the Hippocratic oath would prevent any doctor from removing cyberware without your consent, the system just makes it impossible for you not to comply with them without going to jail.

Any doctor who would perform surgery on a patient that doesn't comply would lose his license and, more than likely, go to jail for a pretty hefty amount of time.
It's tantamount to me taking a knife and cutting up a guy on the street.

Now performing surgery to take a bullet out of an unconscious patient is one thing, but you can't, for instance, perform an appendectomy on a Jehovah's Witness to save their life when they refuse it. Crazy religious people die every year because of it, a lot of them prisoners who found Jesus on the inside.

And while ethics may be a little less common in the Sixth World's medical community, doctors have been taking the oath since the days of Aristotle, so I don't think they would stop after only 65 years of turmoil and chaos.
That being said, while doctors have taken an oath to do no harm, they often have and do. Everything from the lobotomy to Jonas Saulk giving kids polio.

I still think, as a matter of general practice, it is less likely anyone would yank your cyberware out than put you on probation and make you consent to taking it out.

Posted by: Fortinbras Jan 22 2008, 07:30 PM

Now if someone who wasn't a doctor wanted to rip out your cyberware...

Heck, whose going to miss a SINless Shadowrunner?
Maybe a prison breakout run is necessary?

Posted by: kzt Jan 22 2008, 07:51 PM

Law Enforcement has the legal right to consent or not consent for people in custody. Exactly how far that extends I'm unsure of, but it covers EMT/ED level stuff.

Posted by: Jack Kain Jan 22 2008, 09:04 PM

QUOTE (mfb)

DNI won't be just a little module it would be a highly integrated system. Cyberware is controlled by the body not by a comlink or other outside source. And once again if the guy was resourceful enough to have the ware installed to begin with they are going to be resourceful enough to replace one part.

Now if you remove the entire bit of ware they may be able to get it replaced but the entire model is bound to cost a lot more then one part.

When it comes to forbidden cyberware you deal chiefly with weapons which would obviously be removed from the subject. If your cyberarm has a built in weapon or say you have the wolverine style claws installed prepare to lose them if you get arrested, unless of course your able to bribe them.

illegal Bioware is where its really tricky Tailored Phermones are the easiest to detect but most obviously some corp makes the stuff so its legal somewhere. The Super Thyroid gland is another example thought the gland would be much harder to detect.

But a full body scan with X-rays and everything should easily reveal most bioware.

Cyberlimb guns can be made quite easily I'd imagine even perhaps a go-ganger could do the modifications. All you really need to do is attached a smartlinked gun to a cyberarm and you effectively have it a cyberlimb gun.

Posted by: djinni Jan 22 2008, 09:20 PM

QUOTE (Jack Kain @ Jan 22 2008, 04:04 PM)

the issue isn't that after lonestar "takes care" of the illegal modification the runner cna get it turned back on.
think about it, today you get pulled over and fined for driving without a license, you can then without a license drive to the courthouse, pay your fine, and leave they don't really care too much.
I've gotten stopped for a faulty tail light and informed the officer I had a concealed firearm, when he asked if I had a license I said yes but had forgotten my license at home, he didn't really care, didn't check up on it or anything just said "okay I just stopped you to let you know you have a busted tailight." in your games you have to remember the lonestar people are people not robots they don't ALWAYS react the way their operational book dictates. people get lazy or "have seen it all." and then of course you have the jerks who strip search you on the side of the road because you don't know enough to say "hey no searchy!"
if the illegal ware is simply a fine, then that's all that happens they fine you and don't disable it and send you on your way. (unles you are a citizen, or Sinless).
disabling the DNI interface is easy its principle is the same as a wake on LAN for today's computers you just shut down the port, and you can't use the DNI to turn it back on. no surgery required.
you also have to remember technolgy like this is not foreign to law enforcement individuals. and even law enforcment people sometimes think certain laws are stupid. in my games if you are in a low security zone and a star patrolman sees you have Dermal plating he's prolly not even going to ask you to show your permit, he'll most likely nod in you direction or wave, in an A sector he might talk to you first, conversation etc.. "how's it goin what brings you to this side of town etc..." if he sees you get out of a fight by brandishing blades, he's not going to haul you off for "intent" he might warn you about it, but its probably self defense, the main thing to note is that you aren't going to get hassled EVERY time you walk out the door, and into the path of the lonestar.

@Fortinbras:
cyberpunk genre is a dark and forboding feel, street docs, tanimous, etc... they have doctors that do their dirtywork, and Lonestar I'm sure has contacts to them. its not even a futuristic version of real life, its just shadowrun.

edit:
the above reactions are assuming the player has common sense and doesn't go "PIGS SUCK!!!" and throw feces at the officers etc...

Posted by: Mercer Jan 22 2008, 10:46 PM

It seems like some of the illegal cyberware is offensive, in the sense that its basically a weapon. Removing it, while requiring surgery, is required to disarm the person. The law doesn't really cover this currently, but likewise people aren't capable of installing shotguns in their cyberarms or implanting blades that pop out of their forearms.

If you're SINless and in posession of restricted or forbidden cyberware, then its probably coming out, one way or another unless you have a good lawyer and some resources to call upon. That's pretty draconian from a game perspective, but its hard to justify Lone Star (or any corp) turning people loose on the street with supposedly dangerous stuff in them. (I say supposedly because there are things on the F and R list like Tailored Pheremones and Dermal Plating, which aren't offensive in nature.) And it seems like Lone Star would also be looking to implant that stuff into their HTR teams, so its not like it would go to waste. I'd be all for giving the pc's an out here and there, otherwise for a sammie its pretty much the end of the character, a fate worse than death. One day you're an amped up cybermonster, the next you're Joe Average with no Essence and a criminal SIN. (Essence is still gone forever, isn't it? They didn't change that in SR4?)

Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 22 2008, 11:09 PM

to an extent . . if you remove mcyber/bio and have the monies you can get gene treatment to get essence back . . yes, you may curse now *g*
while we're at it . . am i blind or did the articulate cyber-arm for the back of the cyber-torso vanish? o.O

Posted by: Jaid Jan 23 2008, 01:28 AM

QUOTE (Stahlseele)

you're blind. page 42/43 of augmentation, "weapon mounts" includes both an articulated arm and a shoulder/limb mounted version.

Posted by: Fortinbras Jan 23 2008, 02:31 AM

QUOTE (djinni)

think about it, today you get pulled over and fined for driving without a license, you can then without a license drive to the courthouse, pay your fine, and leave they don't really care too much.
I've gotten stopped for a faulty tail light and informed the officer I had a concealed firearm, when he asked if I had a license I said yes but had forgotten my license at home, he didn't really care, didn't check up on it or anything just said "okay I just stopped you to let you know you have a busted tailight."

Not in the great state of Texas, you can't. You get pulled over here(where Lone Star is from) with a suspended license and you go to jail.
You then bond out(money) and, if it is a county matter, you pay for a lawyer(money), he talks the DA down to 6 moths pre-paid insurance(money), or a fine(money) or probation(which you pay for) and then you pay court costs(money). If it's a city matter you usually just bond out and pay 200-500 dollars.
In any event, you will do jail time if you don't get your license reinstated.
In the current system it's all about getting paid. Now imagine if it were run by a greedy, multi-national corporation.

But I do agree with you that the letter of the law is rarely followed on the street. I have been pulled over with a firearm in the vehicle, told the officer and he let me slide. I've also been pulled over for a "broken taillight", which I didn't have, and had my car pulled apart and searched by five different officers.

In the first scenario I was a white guy, driving outside of Clarksville, Texas, the cop was from the same hometown as my driver's license said and he had known my grandfather. That gave me crazy bonuses to my Charisma + Con roll.
In the second I had long hair down to my butt and was driving away from the Kerville Music Festival, a pretty well established hippie joint where cannabis is not unknown. I was at a negative 6 for my Charisma roll to get out a search.
You could have knocked that cop over with a feather when he found out that not only was I sober, I was the only person he had ever pulled over from the festival who didn't take in for possession, so he did have a reasonable right to be suspicious, but not so on paper.

The point being, that you can always find a way to manuever and manipulate Lone Star into helping the plot along because no two situations are the same.

Posted by: mfb Jan 23 2008, 04:20 AM

QUOTE (Fortinbras)

DNI cyberware is controlled, specifically, through links to your nervous system. for ease of design and maintenance, it seems likely to me that these links would be consolidated as much as possible. higher grades of 'ware might have redundant or decentralized links, making them harder to disable this way, but for the most part it should be a fairly simple operation.

Posted by: djinni Jan 23 2008, 01:06 PM

QUOTE (Fortinbras @ Jan 22 2008, 09:31 PM)

Not in the great state of Texas, you can't. You get pulled over here(where Lone Star is from) with a suspended license and you go to jail.

I live in texas, I guess your from the more uptight side of this nation sized state =P

on the subject of being searched...I think I need to start a new thread...

getting the DNI turned back on would have to be surgery, but even if it had to involve surgery to completely remove a cyber system...
perhaps a run could be done where the runners are hired to affect the outcome of a case invovling a perfectly legal installation of illegal ware, in a Citizen, who just happen to "go bad" precidents are going to be set in that trial and "someone" wants them to go in their favor...

Posted by: ixombie Jan 23 2008, 04:30 PM

I think that one guiding principle of the law in an SR4 game is that the GM should never go "HEY PLAYERS! F*CK YOU!!"

That's what you're doing if you say "the police catch you, disable/take away all your ware, and fine you all of your money, and let you go." It's nothing other than giving someone the choice of being worthless or starting a new character, which is no choice at all.

If the GM wants to keep the players interested, the GM should play ball with the characters. Which means the cops/corps who capture them should play ball too.

Think about it from an enforcer's perspective: here I have immense power over a very dangerous person loaded with illegal hardware who doesn't exist. Should I a) chew him up and spit him out and earn nothing, or b) get something for my trouble? Another non-choice.

There are tons of ways a creative GM can work with an arrested player. For instance, maybe it's a bad cop who's trying to extort money from a local biz, and having the place trashed by a scary cyberman might just send the right message. Maybe it's a good cop who sees a chance to fight fire with fire -- he'll send the evil runner to kill some evil criminals. He can't legally do anything to the criminals because he doesn't have the evidence, but if he sends a shadowrunner, he has no liability, and either the bad runner dies or the bad criminals die, in both cases a good thing. Maybe he just wants a new car, so if you steal his and let him collect the insurance, he'll let you go.

In any event, players should be able to make deals with cops unless they are really stupid. They're not going to bargain with a cop killer, or a known mass murderer, since the value of taking them down is greater than what they could get in exchange. But in those cases, we're not talking about deactivating your illegal ware, fining you, and letting you go. We're talking about summary execution. But if you're picked up for non-violent crimes, or especially if you're just picked up for having illegal ware, they are going to make some sort of deal with you. Otherwise it's just not going to be a fun game...