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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ 2070 Holidays
Posted by: jmecha Jan 21 2008, 05:01 AM
I am putting together a 2070 calander for my group and I was wondering what holidays should be on the 2070 calander, so please Dump Shockers start tossing your ideas my way.
Posted by: apollo124 Jan 21 2008, 05:44 AM
Obviously, all the standard modern holidays, a day of remembrance for the Night of Rage, Dunkelzahn's day (the "assassination"), Ghost Dance Day (NAN especially), Secession day (in the numerous territories that seceded from the US). This is just what came to mind on the spot.
Posted by: Fortune Jan 21 2008, 05:56 AM
Do you think Mana Day (December 24th) would be celebrated separately, or combined with Christmas?
Posted by: Fortinbras Jan 21 2008, 06:48 AM
January 19th would be a welcome holiday in the CAS, as it is Robert E. Lee's birthday. It was still celebrated in the South until it was made into MLK day.
I've little doubt it would have received recognition soon after secession.
Posted by: FlakJacket Jan 21 2008, 06:48 AM
Unification/UCAS Day for the anniversary for what was left of the US and Canada joining together. Likewise Independence Day down in the CAS commemorating when they broke away.
Posted by: Ravor Jan 21 2008, 05:00 PM
Don't forget that in the very least all of the Megas at least, and probably most AA+, and possibly even the larger A+ corps will all have thier own holidays as well.
Of course I seriously doubt that anyone gets time off for holidays anymore anyways.
Posted by: Sponge Jan 21 2008, 05:39 PM
| QUOTE (Ravor) |
| Don't forget that in the very least all of the Megas at least, and probably most AA+, and possibly even the larger A+ corps will all have thier own holidays as well. Of course I seriously doubt that anyone gets time off for holidays anymore anyways. |
Just because megacorps are money-grubbing soulless entities doesn't mean they don't realize that employees without holidays and breaks are unproductive. I'm sure holidays continue to satiate the masses in 2070
Posted by: FrankTrollman Jan 21 2008, 05:46 PM
Yeah, with the amount of extra consumption they can get people to do by giving them reduced hours on Buttercup's Birthday, they'd be mad to make people work straight through it.
-Frank
Posted by: Ravor Jan 21 2008, 06:09 PM
Naw, if a corp's wageslaves get uppity you either increase the levels of happy juice in the water cooler (Remember to dock their pay for the increased costs.) or reassign a couple to your research labs.
Posted by: cx2 Jan 21 2008, 10:39 PM
Oh come on, holiday = marketing opportunity. They would be falling all over to try and sell people various types of worthless crap. The fact this increases worker morale at the same time is just a bonus.
Posted by: Ravor Jan 22 2008, 01:22 AM
And I don't disagree that the corp's marketing departments would be in overdrive trying to sell as much junk as possible to the masses, where I disagree is that the corps would actually give their wageslaves time off during said holidays.
Posted by: djinni Jan 22 2008, 05:27 AM
| QUOTE (Ravor) |
| And I don't disagree that the corp's marketing departments would be in overdrive trying to sell as much junk as possible to the masses, where I disagree is that the corps would actually give their wageslaves time off during said holidays. |
the part of disagreement with you is.
"why not?"
what does the corp have to lose by allowing the non service industry individuals time off in the holiday, or vacation time, sick days...for that matter?
Posted by: The Red Menace Jan 22 2008, 04:29 PM
You guys are getting a bit off of the subject.
Some holidays I feel are worth note...
UCAS-Oct.15th (2030) UCAS Declaration
DENVER-Sept. 1st St.Ghostwalker Day...Hopefully you can think of a better name. This date is the day that the astral rift from Duhky opened and ghostwalkers spirit came. Which lead to the independence of Denver.
YUCATAN-March 15th (2062) Earth or Nature day. This is the day that the great earthquakes and typhoons drove Aztechnology out of the Yucatan. While it would be a young holiday, it could be one that is just beginning to become widely celebrated throughout the Yucatan.
Posted by: Ravor Jan 22 2008, 04:41 PM
The corps aren't really capalist enities per say, if anything they more closely resemble a hybred between dark age fuedal society and pre-union labor sweat shops.
Posted by: Fortinbras Jan 22 2008, 08:11 PM
While I agree that corps are just as likely to make folks work on holidays as they are today, a day off or half day can be the difference between the awesome buying power of Christmas and the lackluster buying power of Arbor Day.
The trade off would be to schedule most holidays on the weekends, like Mother's Day.
But I think most holidays would come down from sanctioned government holidays before they are adopted by the corps, pending Corporate Court approval, of course.
More importantly, having a 2070 exclusive holiday can make for a pretty interesting run.
The NAN nations might celebrate Howling Cayote's birthday.
Posted by: Kanada Ten Jan 29 2008, 12:00 AM
Ork History Month, a week in August to celebrate the venerable cultural heritage of this noble people.
Oshogatsu, the Japanese New Year is celebrated from January 1st to the 3rd. It's a time for the whole corporate family to reflect upon the triumphs of the past - and future, via festivals of food, dance and music.
Spring Festival - not to be out done, the Chinese take fifteen days to honor the coming of a new year, starting February 7th. Dating services call this two week spree "the silver platter" as propriety is dropped for the event and casual relationships become temporarily fashionable in even more conservative circles.
Carnival - need I say more?
The Day of the Dead, well, after the early tragedies following the appearance of shedim, this holiday has come back in fashion for most of the Americas. From October 31st to November 2nd, massive AR costume parties and astral events splatter the streets. Trying to out mask (or unmask) each other has become something of an event between top celebrities - just as trying to our honor the dead for spotlighted soothsayers is quite the spectacle.
Posted by: Shrike30 Jan 29 2008, 07:29 AM
I swear, the first time I read past this topic I thought the subtitle was "HERPES NEEDED."
Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jan 29 2008, 03:58 PM
| QUOTE (Shrike30) |
| I swear, the first time I read past this topic I thought the subtitle was "HERPES NEEDED." |
Try Craig's List.
Posted by: Kanada Ten Jan 29 2008, 05:04 PM
While not technically a holiday, the annual AR Awards are certainly a celebration to mark on the calendar! This behind-the-scenes backstabbing, bribery and blackmail extravaganza is so over-hyped and media saturated that almost everyone is sick to dulldome by the time they unroll the red staircase to the hovering Academy Castle. But this year's two most contentious nominees for "Best Reality" have really cranked up the promotions and bonus material to cometastical proportions:
Jennet de Mediéis (Ersatz!) and her horrifying remake of Invasion of the Body Snatchers was considered the undeniable best experience by almost every critic since it's debut - despite allegedly inducing schizophrenia in a rash of users. And anyone who's played the chilling reality is sure to have a lifelong paranoia whenever they hear the words "two cream, two sugar." *shudders*
But Miracle Shooter co-designer Mark Thunderfist (Ares Entertainment) managed to squeak out his fun, feel-good instant-classic: Battle of the Bands, which seamlessly meshes the competitive violence of Shooter with pseudo-musical talent for an all-ages smash success.
Posted by: Cthulhudreams Jan 30 2008, 12:14 AM
| QUOTE (Ravor @ Jan 21 2008, 08:22 PM) |
| And I don't disagree that the corp's marketing departments would be in overdrive trying to sell as much junk as possible to the masses, where I disagree is that the corps would actually give their wageslaves time off during said holidays. |
Hilarious tendances to bold 'slaves' aside, the real problem is that picture of labour doesn't really match up with the setting. There are like, public servants and a military and small businesses and stuff. Clearly some people can just go get another job, otherwise how do people end up staffing government departments?
The other reason that job conditions are going to exist is that megas are billed as providing end to end services for their employees, and presumably they don't just take them out the back and shoot them come retirement age (may they do? Why would anyone work for them then?), and by 2070, the number of retirees will be quite high. Very possibly it may be higher than the number of workers employed by the megacorps depending on how you think the demographics will swing.
Does that sound like a familiar problem? It should, cause its the problem faced by Ford and General Motors today - and the reason its not facing Toyota is because Toyota has younger workers.
Younger workers are going to be a big thing to attract to stave off the death by pension fund - and given that people have job mobility, people are going to offer incentives to get them. And if you can get 4 weeks of paid leave as a newly minted graduate at Ares, but none at MCT, then you are probably going to take the first offer.
i've always thought the dystopic part of SR was the poor sinless crowding around the glowing bastions with the corp workers in it. And for them, I suspect holidays would be much the same as today, except with even more invasive marketing.
The marketing really would be invasive, as they can get you to log into their full simsense VR game battle of the band, which they might even offer you for free, then make you feel warm fuzzy thoughts about the artfully inserted product placements.
Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jan 30 2008, 12:36 AM
...in my corner of the SR world:
August 14th is Leela Groznek's Birthday: A National Holiday in Croatia
September 17th is Liberation Day: A National Holiday Croatia & Serbia
My 5th is Balkan Unity Day: celebrated in Croatia, Dalmatia, Serbia, and Slovenia (Ratification of the Balkan articles of Peace, 2065).
Posted by: Ravor Jan 30 2008, 01:30 AM
| QUOTE (Cthulhudreams) |
| Hilarious tendances to bold 'slaves' aside, the real problem is that picture of labour doesn't really match up with the setting. There are like, public servants and a military and small businesses and stuff. Clearly some people can just go get another job, otherwise how do people end up staffing government departments? |
*Shrugs* Of course people who haven't signed a corp employment contract with a buy-out clause (Which is set so high as to be impossible to ever meet.) hidden in the fine print can change jobs whenever they fragging please, but then again those people aren't wageslaves.
| QUOTE (Cthulhudreams) |
| The other reason that job conditions are going to exist is that megas are billed as providing end to end services for their employees, and presumably they don't just take them out the back and shoot them come retirement age (may they do? Why would anyone work for them then?), and by 2070, the number of retirees will be quite high. Very possibly it may be higher than the number of workers employed by the megacorps depending on how you think the demographics will swing. |
That is only really a problem if you assume that the quaint notion of retirement hasn't gone the way of the dodo for the average wageslave. Another option is that retirement still exists, but has been pushed back to an age which most people have no hope of achieving.
| QUOTE (Cthulhudreams) |
| Younger workers are going to be a big thing to attract to stave off the death by pension fund - and given that people have job mobility, people are going to offer incentives to get them. And if you can get 4 weeks of paid leave as a newly minted graduate at Ares, but none at MCT, then you are probably going to take the first offer. |
IF people have job mobility then sure the employees are likely to have more power, provided that the threat of the corp simply hiring SINless isn't enough to keep them cowed.
Of course, if the average wageslave had job mobility then there would be no need for willing extractions to even take place and unwilling extractions would be a counterproductive move on the corp's part.
| QUOTE (Cthulhudreams) |
| i've always thought the dystopic part of SR was the poor sinless crowding around the glowing bastions with the corp workers in it. And for them, I suspect holidays would be much the same as today, except with even more invasive marketing. |
Naw, the true dystopic nature of the Sixth World is that the SINless hoards banging on the walls to the corp enclave have no idea that the wageslaves inside have no more hope for a better life then they do. Everyone is fragged, the only real difference is the the corpers have shinier prision cells than the SINless trash.
Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jan 30 2008, 01:35 AM
...I tried to get back to the original question...really... 
Posted by: Kanada Ten Jan 30 2008, 01:36 AM
| QUOTE (Cthulhudreams) |
| The marketing really would be invasive, as they can get you to log into their full simsense VR game battle of the band, which they might even offer you for free, then make you feel warm fuzzy thoughts about the artfully inserted product placements. |
Make sure you've got your anti-viral marketing software up-to-date.
Posted by: Kanada Ten Jan 30 2008, 01:39 AM
Historically, slaves get days off.
And because you still have to pay wageslaves, giving them days off is a type of temporary downsizing. "Today is MCT Founders' Day. Take a week off."
Posted by: Ravor Jan 30 2008, 01:50 AM
That is a very interesting argument Kanada Ten, provided of course that the wageslaves didn't expect to be paid for time that they didn't work and that the corp kept enough people working to be fully operational, after all you can't afford not to be fully staffed in the 24/7 workday of the Sixth World.
*Edit*
Kyoto Kid you on topic?
Posted by: Cthulhudreams Jan 30 2008, 01:52 AM
If people can just hire sinless, dispense a SIN (and install skillwires to give actual job skills), then most sinless are just going to get a (Blue collar) job, probably maintaining drone factories. This is particularly the case as things like the VITAS plague can be assumed to generate huge labour shortages (if we follow real world examples of pandemics like the black death, they did create huge labour shortages and helped emancipate the serfs.), so the SINless wouldn't be a social phenomenon because there would be like.. 4.. of them.
As for the average wageslave/extraction thing....
Today, if I as a junior government employee who does say, IT, quit my job and move to russia and get a new job where I help skill up the locals by handing over my knowledge, that is called 'emigrating' and 'skills transfer' and people offer charitable programs to do exactly that.
Today, if I as a senior government researcher on a top secret research project, lets say, biological weaponry, quit my job, moved to Russia and get a new job and give the locals all my knowledge, we have different words for that. Words like 'Treason' and 'Defection' and 'A breach of the official secrets act' that carries a death penalty. Spy agencies even today run programs to encourage people to defect from places like north korea.
I don't know about you, but most shadowrun extractions are firmly in category B, and there is every reason to assume the rules are different for people in category B. Thus to me, no-one cares in the slightest if the guy who oils the machines in some factory somewhere quits and takes another job. Whoop dee do. HR just has to keep the churn statistics under 30% P.A. and no-one cares. This is probably going to be cheaper and more effective than coercion too.
And thus to me, Ares' nuclear weapon research lab is a different ball game. There even the janitor will be paid a lot more money than they guy who works at the factory, but if he even so much as steps into the same bar with a guy who once worked at ares, nasty people will ask questions.
The contract law thing doesn't even particularly work due to extraterritoriality unless you keep the guys chained up. The guy who works for ares can just walk over to MCT, and get a new job (and a new sin, heck) - whats ares going to do? Say mean things to MCT? They don't even have the rights to walk near the MCT housing complexes and factories where the guy now lives, and running on his identity won't work because he has a new one.
Scrapping retirement is faintly absurd. I'm not sure about you, but my 70 year old grandfather was not particularly capable of turning in an honest days work. Sure you could push the retirement age back to 65 or something, but people get old and sick and slow down.
To prove that this huge tangent is even slightly relevant to the topic -> And thus holidays are going to be pretty normal. In fact as the most valuable workers are knowledge workers who entire skillset is in their head, and who can also really just walk across the street and take those skills to Ares, pay and leave conditions for highly knowledge workers is likely to have increased markedly.
This is especially relevant as the normal sources of importing skilled workers in non core fields into an organization short term (contractors, consultants, etc) have all disappeared (I'm not sure an accounting firm or management consulting firm could exist in the 6th world), so you're going to have to keep these people on staff all the time. Of course, you are also probably big enough to make that work, but these people are regularly headhunted today, so no reason to assume it would change.
Interestingly, this would also point to a type of extraction mission not frequently seen in SR4/cyberpunk games I've encountered. It's been shown that superstar investment analysts etc perform much better when they are allowed to bring across their staff and team with them - so an extraction might feature a dozen or so precision co-ordinated moves by 1 or maybe more teams. Frightening thought.
Posted by: kanislatrans Jan 30 2008, 02:02 AM
corporate holidays:
Founders day: a day to honor the company founder. "Today we fondly remember our company founder,Richard Cranium, whose dream of a company that works to it fullest potential to improve the lives of people the world over still guides this company today"(cheers from the gathered masses.) " and in keeping in that tradition we are offering a 10 percent discount at all Arcology shops for all employees and their familys till midnight tonight!"(more cheers from the masses) "this does not include departments 16 through 32 in the production department as we have downsized and are subcontracting your positions to an undisclosed over seas facility. anyone in those departments, your final pay and a severance bonus of 1000 
have already been credited to your accounts. please vacate the premises by 1800 hours."
Bring a grapefruit to work day- in an effort to be "fun" the marketing dept has declared june 13 as bring a grapefruit to work day " any employ who shows up with a grapefruit gets a one share stock certificate in the company.(small print; a 25 transfer fee will be automatically deducted from you next weeks pay.
Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jan 30 2008, 02:04 AM
| QUOTE (Ravor) |
| That is a very interesting argument Kanada Ten, provided of course that the wageslaves didn't expect to be paid for time that they didn't work and that the corp kept enough people working to be fully operational, after all you can't afford not to be fully staffed in the 24/7 workday of the Sixth World. *Edit* Kyoto Kid you on topic? |
...well I thought the original question was about tossing out ideas for a few holidays people would put on their 2070 calendars.
Seemed things were getting a little mired on the whole wageslave/hiring/extraction discussion, so I ran a few of my own special days up the flagpole to see who'd salute...
Posted by: Kanada Ten Jan 30 2008, 02:05 AM
| QUOTE (Ravor) |
| That is a very interesting argument Kanada Ten, provided of course that the wageslaves didn't expect to be paid for time that they didn't work and that the corp kept enough people working to be fully operational, after all you can't afford not to be fully staffed in the 24/7 workday of the Sixth World. |
IMO, Wageslaves are metered, per second per thought. Quota systems on everything, thus they'd hardly expect to be paid for time spent in the bathroom, or daydreaming rather than number crunching (unless they're part of the parallel computing program, in which case they get paid flat rate for the brain space).
Obviously critical employees are not granted holiday time separate from vacation time, and are paid according to their critical nature, but - in my view - there's more people than jobs for most jobs in the megacorporate structure, thus a practice of sinuous downsizing would have huge budgetary advantages. Plan for typical cashflow slowdowns and so on...
Posted by: kanislatrans Jan 30 2008, 02:31 AM
Ganger holidays:
"lets not beat up any chipheads today day"-like most ganger holidays they occur when ever the mood strikes the gang in particular. usually goes like this
Skeeter:hoi,ya noggin we done tagged on the beetleheads mighty stone cold lately,natch? mebbe we let'um sleepy eye a sec, mebbe not till marra?"
Raza edge: Huh? cold beeze,skeet ,mebbe we do dad. Chippies run betta and squeal louda if'n dez rested. " pause" "Chummer,what doin' if we aint' stomping chippies?
Skeeter: "um,dunno."
Huevos: 'Um,Mebbbe we boot Skeeters hoop?"
Raza edge: "Works for me!"
Skeeter:" Flash freeze, Flash freeze!! I'm blood here.."*skeeter runs screaming down street
Posted by: kanislatrans Jan 30 2008, 03:05 AM
| QUOTE (jmecha) |
| I am putting together a 2070 calander for my group and I was wondering what holidays should be on the 2070 calander, so please Dump Shockers start tossing your ideas my way. |
topic as I understood it...
gotta agree with KK here. 
Posted by: Ravor Jan 30 2008, 03:09 AM
You are forgetting the fact that the corps have signed certain accords agreeing to abide by a set of rules, one of those rules is supposed to require corps to return "escaped employees". Of course, as is often the case with the corps, their word is only as good as they figure their odds of getting caught is.
Before you ask me for a page reference, I don't have one at hand, but I seem to recall Ancient History talking about the accords a while back, although my aging memory might be playing tricks on me again.
Posted by: Ravor Jan 30 2008, 03:28 AM
Kanada Ten I tend to agree with your line of thought, provided you throw in happy juice (I have no idea how to make the little TM.) in the water cooler, the price of which is deducted from everyone's wages, and old time "company store" policies merged with an almost feudal mindset. 
Kyoto Kid I was (Unsucessfully.) trying to make a funny by referring to a comment you made a while back, I'm sorry.
Posted by: cryptoknight Jan 30 2008, 12:51 PM
| QUOTE (Ravor) |
| Naw, if a corp's wageslaves get uppity you either increase the levels of happy juice in the water cooler (Remember to dock their pay for the increased costs.) or reassign a couple to your research labs. |
Wow... when did I wind up on the Paranoia RPG forums?
Posted by: bibliophile20 Jan 30 2008, 03:19 PM
| QUOTE (cryptoknight) |
| Wow... when did I wind up on the Paranoia RPG forums? |
You are not of sufficient clearance to know that information, Citizen. Have a nice day and remember: The Computer is your Friend!
Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jan 30 2008, 04:01 PM
| QUOTE (Ravor) |
| Kyoto Kid I was (Unsucessfully.) trying to make a funny by referring to a comment you made a while back, I'm sorry. |
...same here too. No offence taken, no harm done...
I've made more than my fair share of [Derails] myself
Never really expected anyone else to use my special little holidays as they are outgrowths of my RiS campaign canon.
...then again the Balkans were somewhat of an omission in SoE (not by any intent mind you), so I felt I had a little free reign to shape the region to my liking.
Posted by: cryptoknight Jan 30 2008, 04:04 PM
| QUOTE (bibliophile20) | ||
You are not of sufficient clearance to know that information, Citizen. Have a nice day and remember: The Computer is your Friend! |
All hail the all knowing computer. Computer, may I be returned to the Shadowrun forums?
All kidding aside, that would truely be a sick cross-over... I remember the cross over rules from Paranoia to Cyberpunk...
Posted by: Ravor Jan 30 2008, 04:45 PM
Well, my argument is that happy juice in the water cooler is perfectly in line with what we've been told about the soul numbing existance that wageslaves are damned to endure, after all what exactly is the difference between slipping a chemical into the drinking supply and inserting emotional tracks in the sim-sense ads that corpers are exposed to virtually every non-working moment of their lives?
Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jan 30 2008, 05:06 PM
| QUOTE (cryptoknight) | ||||
All hail the all knowing computer. Computer, may I be returned to the Shadowrun forums? All kidding aside, that would truely be a sick cross-over... I remember the cross over rules from Paranoia to Cyberpunk... |
...the only thing sicker would be SR & CoC.
Well, we do have he Horrors which is a good start. The one thing, in CoC only Cthulu always wins so no moaning about absolute immunity to normal weapons (& possibly even Weapon Foci & some spells). Heck even Nukes don't work against him & his minions, they only piss them off more & make them radioactive.
[/Derail]
Posted by: Ravor Jan 30 2008, 05:25 PM
I own that setting, the rules are GURPS though.
Posted by: cryptoknight Jan 30 2008, 06:55 PM
| QUOTE (Ravor) |
| Well, my argument is that happy juice in the water cooler is perfectly in line with what we've been told about the soul numbing existance that wageslaves are damned to endure, after all what exactly is the difference between slipping a chemical into the drinking supply and inserting emotional tracks in the sim-sense ads that corpers are exposed to virtually every non-working moment of their lives? |
Not really. Technically right now I'm a wageslave. I trade my time with the company for a wage.
Has anybody thought that the terminologies and slang is Shadowrunner oriented? i.e. to a Shadowrunner people with regular nine to five type work are wageslaves. To a wageslave the term for a Shadowrunner would be ruthless criminal, gangbanger, etc.
I figure a little subliminal advertising is probably easier than actually feeding mood altering drugs to your employees. Generally, mood altering substances will cut efficiency. That might work well for a cashier at the company caffeteria, but not so good for your accountants, customer service representatives, IT employees, security guards, scientists, etc.
Posted by: Ravor Jan 31 2008, 02:41 AM
Um no, unless you signed a legally binding contract that states you are unable to quit your job without paying the corp a sum of money you aren't a wageslave. *Edit* And the sum of money is set up in such a way that it is impossible for you to actually ever pay. /*Edit*
As for doping the workforce, sure it cuts into productivity, but that is a cost that is weighed against the possible costs that would come from having miserible employees on staff and since the corp owns their own water bottling plant adding the happy juice isn't any extra hardship. (Of course, I imagine that the happy juice is labled and mixed into either flavoring or purifaction chemicals.)
Important employees of course require handling with a little more care, but that is part of the reason that the corps encourage everyone to live in enclaves, just in case they need to leverage someone's family to ensure compliance.
Posted by: cryptoknight Jan 31 2008, 03:53 AM
| QUOTE (Ravor) |
| Um no, unless you signed a legally binding contract that states you are unable to quit your job without paying the corp a sum of money you aren't a wageslave. *Edit* And the sum of money is set up in such a way that it is impossible for you to actually ever pay. /*Edit* |
Maybe I missed something, but where is that in the BBB? I don't even remember that in any of the prior editions going back to 1st. Corps make it tough to leave sure, and a certain amount of the company store type of thing yah... But at some point there had to be a benefit to the person who signed the contract, and I can't imagine one.
Certainly the paragraph that describes corporate life on page 41 doesn't describe this.
Hell, there's push back on the concept of non-competes now. Having a reverse golden parachute to that extreme doesn't make sense.
Extractions happen because corps don't want to lose their prime valuable employees, and they go to extremes such as unwritten threats to family and loved ones to ensure employees don't talk to competitors and arrange for their extractions. But if there's a clause in a contract that said employee owes some ridiculous amount of cash should they leave, then corps wouldn't want to extract employees because the corp that just lost their #1 ace researcher is going to sue their new employer in the corporate court. Which on page 41 of the BBB is said that all corporations obey.
Posted by: Ravor Jan 31 2008, 04:06 AM
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=20314&st=100
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
... But the great thing about the UCAS is that it doesn't have any Constitutional prohibition of involuntary servitude. In fact, having signed the Business Recognition Accords, the UCAS is required by international law to recognize and enforce labor contracts. ... |
Although I don't have a page number handy at the moment, I'm not the only one who remembers corp contracts in that light. Also it is well worth noting that the society of the Sixth World is nothing like the society of today, so even trying to bring in modern examples of how corperations work is pointless at best.
As for corps sueing each other over an extracted employee, excuse me? There is a REASON the employee was extracted by Shadowrunners and not a corp goon squad.
Posted by: Cthulhudreams Jan 31 2008, 04:11 AM
I'm not sure Ravor's take on it has internal consistency. Lets just drill into the happy juice argument.
None of the drugs listed in the 4th ed book aside from the Psyche don't have serious side effects, and Psyche is going to reduce productivity to 0 in the distraction machine enviroment that is AR and the matrix.
Also, all 2008 'happy pills' have a range of serious side effects that would also adversely impact productivity, and as coke -> nova coke hasn't really cut down on problems per the fluff, I'm not sure prozac -> new prozac is magically more effective?
However lets assume that the corps overcome that hurdle and produce a drug there is every indication is impossible - why does anyone use BTLs? If the impossible drug is cheap enough to mass produce, why wouldn't chipheads just use that, which even lets you function as a human (because it doesn't cut into productivity). It's like a win/win.
Maybe it's more expensive than BTL chips, so the poor just use BTLs - but at that point its almost certainly cheaper for the corps to make you actually happy as opposed to chemically happy. If you just gave everyone a raise = value of a BTL addiction, they'd probably be happier than rivals.
Edit: As for the extraction thing, corps obviously know about who composes rival research teams, otherwise how do they ID targets for extraction in the first place. Given they know about each others employees, how are they not going to ask questions when Dr jones shows up at ares. If they cannot ask questions, how did ares know that Dr jones even existed and worked at MCT?
(And as a side note, administering it via the water cooler is a good way to lead to overdoses - I drink far more than the guy at the next desk from the watercooler, so I'd OD, and nothing would happen to him as he doesn't use it.)
Posted by: Ravor Jan 31 2008, 04:27 AM
*Shrugs* Much of the Sixth World's broken and tired society doesn't really make sense, which is why it is Cyberpunk.
However, your arguments only really makes sense if you assume that the effects of the happy juice in the drinking water is as potent as a dosage of the listed drugs, the effect I'm envisioning is generally speaking much less pronounced then you seem to be thinking of.
One of the reasons that BTLs and Street Drugs are still popular amongst the corp crowd is that they tend to provide a much better high then the buzz they get from drinking the water.
*Edit*
Extractions
Do you really believe for a second that a corp that is interested enough in a person to hire a bunch of thugs to kidnap him would allow that person to keep the same face/name he was born with?
Overdoses
Sure, overdosing is probably a danger (Especially if the HR Department jacks the levels up for some reason.), and I'd hate to be the poor slot who has an allergy to the happy juice, but there is always someone waiting in the wings to fill any given wageslave's position so it isn't really that big of a deal.
*Edit 2.0*
Although if you are worried about overdosing, then you can always pipe the drug through the ventation systems, might explain why Shadowrunners would rather hit a corp building then steal cars for a living.
Posted by: Cthulhudreams Jan 31 2008, 05:17 AM
| QUOTE (Ravor @ Jan 30 2008, 11:27 PM) |
| but there is always someone waiting in the wings to fill any given wageslave's position so it isn't really that big of a deal. |
But there isnt, because you deny the possibility of labour mobility with lock in contracts. If anyone with a degree (even a freshly minuted graduate dies) he is impossible to replace. *Impossible* because it is impossible to laterally hire him from another company. (Skillwires don't work, because the rating 4 you need to emulate a degree level of skill is outside the availability range that is common on the street, the precise inverse of what would be the case if you used them all the time)
With the early 20th century additive parts I can only assume you mean tings like coke, which had cocaine, ranging from 1/400 in first formulations, to 1 part in 50 million by the 1920s.
Dosages of prozac in that level are unlikely to have any effect on people (Pesticides are found on lettuces in concentrations like that and you don't suffer from neurotoxin poisoning, nor do you suffer from lead poisoning despite similar situations with drinking water), so you *have* to be talking about *much* higher concentrations if you are going to deal with the extremely high levels of unhappiness you induce by slavery-like conditions.
Current lawyers who get paid large sums of money in otherwise excellent conditions aside from work hours have high rates of depression - by forcing people into bonded labour of the sort you are describing is going to create extremely high levels of depression across the board, requiring real doses of high side effect medication, and psychotherapy, or high suicide rates amongst irreplacable knowledge workers.
It doesn't make sense - instead of tanking up your lawyers, accountants and management consultants on prozac (which would *kill* their job performance, I'm not sure management consultants who rely on interpersonal skills could function effectively on a diet of tranqulizers) and giving them counciling, you could just treat them nicely. We know *today* that treating them nicely is cheaper in the long run.
As for the extraction thing, I'm just assuming that MCT is smart enough to figure out if their specialist researcher in nano-pharmaceutical interaction with the human brain disappears, and Ares suddenly gets one, they can figure out who it is - its not like Ares could have hired him from anywhere else in your model, because everywhere has their employees locked up in contracts they can never leave.
Posted by: Ravor Jan 31 2008, 06:22 AM
| QUOTE (Cthulhudreams) |
| But there isnt, because you deny the possibility of labour mobility with lock in contracts. If anyone with a degree (even a freshly minuted graduate dies) he is impossible to replace. *Impossible* because it is impossible to laterally hire him from another company. (Skillwires don't work, because the rating 4 you need to emulate a degree level of skill is outside the availability range that is common on the street, the precise inverse of what would be the case if you used them all the time) |
So? Considering that a mere datajack is all that is needed to load 'knowsofts a large portion of a wageslave's skillset is handled with a 500
hardware investment, and ( Rating 3 ) skillwires are good enough to bring the wageslave to a "professional" level of skill.| QUOTE (Cthulhudreams) |
| With the early 20th century additive parts I can only assume you mean tings like coke, which had cocaine, ranging from 1/400 in first formulations, to 1 part in 50 million by the 1920s. Dosages of prozac in that level are unlikely to have any effect on people (Pesticides are found on lettuces in concentrations like that and you don't suffer from neurotoxin poisoning, nor do you suffer from lead poisoning despite similar situations with drinking water), so you *have* to be talking about *much* higher concentrations if you are going to deal with the extremely high levels of unhappiness you induce by slavery-like conditions. |
Along with the various cough medicines that are banned today yes, but after thinking about it for a bit I edited that sentence out (Before I read your responce.) because you are right, it would take a higher dosage, but not one on par with the listed street drugs.
| QUOTE (Cthulhudreams) |
| Current lawyers who get paid large sums of money in otherwise excellent conditions aside from work hours have high rates of depression - by forcing people into bonded labour of the sort you are describing is going to create extremely high levels of depression across the board, requiring real doses of high side effect medication, and psychotherapy, or high suicide rates amongst irreplacable knowledge workers. |
So? Corp life is supposed to crush the very souls out of the cogs that make up its existance. And of course, I disagree that label "irreplacable" is one that could be applied to a wageslave, I've already stated that the few actual important employees needed handled with more care then the masses of wageslaves.
| QUOTE (Cthulhudreams) |
| It doesn't make sense - instead of tanking up your lawyers, accountants and management consultants on prozac (which would *kill* their job performance, I'm not sure management consultants who rely on interpersonal skills could function effectively on a diet of tranqulizers) and giving them counciling, you could just treat them nicely. We know *today* that treating them nicely is cheaper in the long run. |
And once again we get back to the whole, it's Cyberpunk, you have to assume that society has gone to hell and thrown away the handbasket for the setting to work at all. The workforce has returned to the "bad ol'days" of sweat-shops, "company store" policies, and indentured servants (Which is basically what an employment contract is.) merged with a good dash of feudal nobles lording over their serfs.
| QUOTE (Cthulhudreams) |
| As for the extraction thing, I'm just assuming that MCT is smart enough to figure out if their specialist researcher in nano-pharmaceutical interaction with the human brain disappears, and Ares suddenly gets one, they can figure out who it is - its not like Ares could have hired him from anywhere else in your model, because everywhere has their employees locked up in contracts they can never leave. |
First of all, it's one thing to "know something" and quite another to actually "prove it", and if MCT is smart they won't press the issue too hard provided that Ares at least makes a show at hiding the extraction because to do so carries the very real danger of exposing MCT's own dirty laundry. When everyone has cookie crumbs on their hands it isn't wise to tattle.
Secondly, it's hardly impossible for someone who has skills that are rare enough to be in demand to escape an employment contract, if nothing else the corp who wants to hire her is capable of paying the termination fee, but then again people that are in that type of demand hardly falls under the classification of wageslave.
Posted by: Cthulhudreams Jan 31 2008, 07:56 AM
We have serious disagreements about a few fundamental points.
Why would we revert to sweatshops when it is seriously cheaper to buy a machine to do the same manual labour task? Much cheaper to run a drone for a year than hire a person.
In my view the dystopian nature is because all the bluecollar workers have been fired, and the sinless cannot get jobs because they lack the knowledge skills. It's what unfettered capatlism today would bring - the 'haves' have won the capaltist competition and can afford to skill up their kids to get jobs, and the 'have nots' well.. cannot.
So once we get rid of all the low skill workers, we are left with high skill workers - the sort, if you keep up todate with current HR problems, that are routinely heavily competited for in the marketplace as demand outstrips supply.
Every reason to assume that after the VITAS plague this has got worse. If you think corps can just buy out the contracts of sort after high skilled workers, that makes the contracts irrelevant (and thus the concepts of wageslaves), because the only people with jobs are sought after high skilled workers - they fired the rest of them for robots in 2040.
And my final point diverges depending on wether you agree with your own argument or not - if there is labour mobility (via corps buying out contracts!) then their will be competition to offer the biggest salaries and best conditions, much like law firms today, so you get the best people.
And if there isn't labour mobility, they still have to be nice to employees, because knowledge workers with clinical depression are significantly less effective than if they were - and because the cost of not being the best with shrink rap software, or products (look at the ipod vs its rivals in terms of profit, or the billable rates of a lawyer with Craavath vs a family law solicitor) is HUGE (clue, multiplers are in the x100s of times), the corps they are not nice to their knowledge workers (ie all their workers) will not make as much money as those that are.
That said I have no doubt their will be blue collar workers rolling around, but in the scheme of things they won't matter.
Posted by: hyzmarca Jan 31 2008, 08:21 AM
Due to extensive lobbying from both the Skywalker Church, the International Fellowship of Jedi Temples, and the Dark Lords of the Sith, Wookie Life Day is a recognized holiday in many jurisdictions.
Posted by: Ravor Jan 31 2008, 09:18 AM
| QUOTE (Cthulhudreams) |
| We have serious disagreements, and I do not think some of your points are logical |
I suspect the difference lays in that you are looking at what would be logical from the standpoint of modern society where-as I'm looking at what would be logical from a Cyberpunk standpoint which is very much a creature of an earlier era.
| QUOTE (Cthulhudreams) |
| Why would we revert to sweatshops when it is seriously cheaper to buy a machine to do the same manual labour task? Much cheaper to run a drone for a year than hire a person. |
Perhaps sweatshops was a poor choice to use, the point I was trying to make is that the average wageslave has the same amount of control as a sweatshop employee did, including grueling working hours, docked pay, and the expectation of being brutalized by management.
Although with the SINless masses, it might be cheaper to pay them virtually nothing in honest-to-god sweatshops then to set up and mantain a drone factory, property is quite often more valuable then human life.
| QUOTE (Cthulhudreams) |
| In my view the dystopian nature is because all the bluecollar workers have been fired, and the sinless cannot get jobs because they lack the knowledge skills. It's what unfettered capatlism today would bring - the 'haves' have won the capaltist competition and can afford to skill up their kids to get jobs, and the 'have nots' well.. cannot. So once we get rid of all the low skill workers, we are left with high skill workers - the sort, if you keep up todate with current HR problems, that are routinely heavily competited for in the marketplace as demand outstrips supply. Every reason to assume that after the VITAS plague this has got worse. If you think corps can just buy out the contracts of sort after high skilled workers, that makes the contracts irrelevant (and thus the concepts of wageslaves), because the only people with jobs are sought after high skilled workers - they fired the rest of them for robots in 2040. |
There are several problems with this, the first being that in the Sixth World datajacks are an item that you quite literally can get installed in an average stripmall and they are capable of running 'knowsofts that gives you a level of expertize that has relatively few peers. When 5,500
can buy expert status in any given knowledge skill in an instant the idea that the workplace is an employee's market just doesn't add up.Now granted, it is more expensive to buy a set of skillwires and 'activesofts to cover the relatively few jobs that use active skills as opposed to knowledge skills in Fourth Edition, but still, the costs aren't high enough to be prohibative, especially when you consider that very few tasks actually need a skill higher then ( Rating 3 ) to suceed, hell, many tasks could probably be done at ( Rating 2 ) given that the wageslave in question would be racking up as many positive modifiers as possible from having good tools and excellent AR assistance.
And don't for an instant think that the corp beancounters haven't realized that they can take an average slob off the street, sign him up to a contract and a corp credit-line with "fair terms" such as 50% interest, and after he recovers from the surgery to implant the ware that he paid for is able to be a virtual expert in whatever field the corp needs on any given day. The "high skill" employees that you keep referring to can easily be replaced with the corp actually profitting since they can mandate that the wageslave buy his own implants on credit. This is one of the threats that the corps hang over the heads of their wageslaves, "Keep working or you'll be replaced by vatjob employees almost as easily as the factory workers were replaced." And it is a very real threat because it doesn't actually cost the corp anything in the long run.
| QUOTE (Cthulhudreams) |
| And my final point diverges depending on wether you agree with your own argument or not - if there is labour mobility (via corps buying out contracts!) then their will be competition to offer the biggest salaries and best conditions, much like law firms today, so you get the best people. And if there isn't labour mobility, they still have to be nice to employees, because knowledge workers with clinical depression are significantly less effective than if they were - and because the cost of not being the best with shrink rap software, or products (look at the ipod vs its rivals in terms of profit, or the billable rates of a lawyer with Craavath vs a family law solicitor) is HUGE (clue, multiplers are in the x100s of times), the corps they are not nice to their knowledge workers (ie all their workers) will not make as much money as those that are. |
I disagree with you on both accounts, although there is "labor mobility" of a sort it only applies to the very upper level of employees, the talented few that outstrip the level that 'softs can provide, or those whose abilities and worth can't be measured solely by their skill rankings, your average accountant, lawyer, manager, ect simply have no hope of making the grade and have to live with a constant and very real fear of being replaced.
As for unhappy workers being less productive, sure, but remember that all of the corps have been playing by the same rules for along time now, and very few people that are still alive in 2070 even remembers a time when human life had value and you weren't just a souless cog in the system, if a batch of wageslaves aren't meeting their quota then they are quickly replaced, either by vatjobs or by "normal" people, because in the labor market that must exist given Sixth World tech and the Cyberpunk genre there is always someone waiting in line to take your place.
| QUOTE (Cthulhudreams) |
| That said I have no doubt their will be blue collar workers rolling around, but in the scheme of things they won't matter. |
Suprisingly enough, I tend to more-or-less agree (Outside of the corp sponsered sweatshops manned by the SINless that is.), but I wasn't really talking about the blue collars when referring to wageslaves, I have mostly been talking about white collar workers.
Posted by: cryptoknight Jan 31 2008, 12:29 PM
| QUOTE (Ravor @ Jan 31 2008, 04:18 AM) | ||
|
Following your line of reasoning means that there would never be an extraction. It's always cheaper to chip somebody up and load them with a knowledgesoft.
IMHO, loading the knowledgesoft is the equivalent in today's terms of having a paper MCSE vs a 10 yr grizzled Network admin who may or may not have one. The 10 yr vet has more experience and actual skills than the MCSE and is generally in higher demand. Knowing the facts of something isn't the same as knowing how to use those facts.
Additionally since Knowsofts can go up to level 5. Which is described as a "Top Scientist" in the BBB. Since you can slot SINless as top Scientists, why even bother going for anything better than that? Employees having no value goes counter to the reason why Shadowrunners are hired for extractions.
As for your earlier question as to why Shadowrunners and not the corp goon squad? Easy, deniability. Quite frequently things go wrong on an extraction. This way the corp hiring the runners can make no claim whatsoever about having had anything to do with the extraction and afterwards can say that so and so who they found looking for work has now decided to hire on with them.
Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jan 31 2008, 05:03 PM
| QUOTE (Ravor) |
| wageslaves |
Insert relevant Mandy Patinkin/Princess Bride quote here.
I think I agree with cryptoknight.
| QUOTE |
| Has anybody thought that the terminologies and slang is Shadowrunner oriented? i.e. to a Shadowrunner people with regular nine to five type work are wageslaves. |
I mean, we're all reading the same fluff, and you need to be aware that there are a lot of people reading the exact same fluff you are and getting a very different picture out of it, so unless you can start providing quotes to back you up you might have to acknowledge that you might not be holding the One True Interpretation. I genuinely don't think that's how you're intending to come off, but...
Posted by: Ravor Jan 31 2008, 05:19 PM
| QUOTE (cryptoknight) |
| Following your line of reasoning means that there would never be an extraction. It's always cheaper to chip somebody up and load them with a knowledgesoft. |
| QUOTE (cryptoknight) |
| Additionally since Knowsofts can go up to level 5. Which is described as a "Top Scientist" in the BBB. Since you can slot SINless as top Scientists, why even bother going for anything better than that? Employees having no value goes counter to the reason why Shadowrunners are hired for extractions. |
I'm sorry but you are mistaken, more over I'm fairly sure I already covered these points.
| QUOTE (Ravor) |
| I disagree with you on both accounts, although there is "labor mobility" of a sort it only applies to the very upper level of employees, the talented few that outstrip the level that 'softs can provide, or those whose abilities and worth can't be measured solely by their skill rankings, your average accountant, lawyer, manager, ect simply have no hope of making the grade and have to live with a constant and very real fear of being replaced |
Of course extractions remain perfectly viable even after you've accepted the logical end results that 'softs would have on the labormarket, sure it's cheaper to build a vatjob researcher then to extract Bob Research, but your vatjob doesn't come with the intimate knowledge of "Project NERPS" that Bob Research has so Ares extracts him instead. The fact that by removing Bob Research delays MCT is gravy.
| QUOTE (cryptoknight) |
| As for your earlier question as to why Shadowrunners and not the corp goon squad? Easy, deniability. Quite frequently things go wrong on an extraction. This way the corp hiring the runners can make no claim whatsoever about having had anything to do with the extraction and afterwards can say that so and so who they found looking for work has now decided to hire on with them. |
Excuse me? If the corps have to compete and value their employees then what exactly is keeping Kim Extraction from simply giving her two-week notice and returning to her previous corp? And given your view of the Sixth World the corp wouldn't dare level threats against her family and friends, after all, why would anyone work for a company that did that?
| QUOTE (cryptoknight) |
| IMHO, loading the knowledgesoft is the equivalent in today's terms of having a paper MCSE vs a 10 yr grizzled Network admin who may or may not have one. The 10 yr vet has more experience and actual skills than the MCSE and is generally in higher demand. Knowing the facts of something isn't the same as knowing how to use those facts. |
You are partially correct, standard 'softs are inferior to natural skills in one reguard, even with a "skillwire expert system" the user is severely limited in the ways he may spend Edge. That limitation on the technology may be the only reason that natural employees even have a hope of keeping their jobs. However that limitation isn't enough of one that corps are suddenly forced to value their wageslaves.
Posted by: Ravor Jan 31 2008, 05:41 PM
| QUOTE (Moon-Hawk @ Jan 31 2008, 12:03 PM) |
| Everything that I've gathered from SR fluff is that SINners are generally a pretty happy lot. Not because they're drugged and shackled, but because they work their little jobs and live their lives safely isolated from the realities of the street. They buy their shiny toys and watch their favorite shows about magic and shadowrunners, snuggled up safe in their arcologies, occasionally commuting through bad neighborhoods with their doors locked, and have no idea what life is like on the streets for the legions of SINless. I feel like the masses of happy SINners are what makes is to cyberpunk and dystopic. I mean, we're all reading the same fluff, and you need to be aware that there are a lot of people reading the exact same fluff you are and getting a very different picture out of it, so unless you can start providing quotes to back you up you might have to acknowledge that you might not be holding the One True Interpretation. I genuinely don't think that's how you're intending to come off, but... |
Who me? Seriously though one of the major problems that I have with the "it's 2007 with cyber, magic, and trogs" interpretation of the Sixth World is that we are given bits and pieces of fluff that simply doesn't fit if it were actually the case, the Accords that I quoted hyzmarca as referring to that upholds the idea that not only is bonded labor legal it is in fact illegal not to enforce the contracts, the fact that to-the-death-bloodsports are extremely popular with the masses despite being illegal, the fact that meat-puppets are common enough that their services only cost 50
an hour, a mother being required to scrouge for enough money to afford a datajack just for the hope of getting a job interview, the fact that the corps are perfectly willing to engauge in dangerous experiments using their own employees. Remember and the fluff about the former corp baby getting revenge on his boss for his wife's death or the storyline behind Emergence?Another is that they tend to willfully ignore the effects that Sixth World technology would have on the world, to paraphrase The Increbibles, 'When everyone is super, then no-one will be.'
Besides, Shadowrun is supposed to be in the Cyberpunk genre, and one of the things that comes along with that is human life is not priceless, it can and is measured down to the last cred.
Posted by: cryptoknight Jan 31 2008, 05:46 PM
| QUOTE (Ravor) | ||
I'm sorry but you are mistaken, more over I'm fairly sure I already covered these points. |
How am I wrong. We're talking about simple economics... it's cheaper to slot up a bunch of minimum wage people with level 5 in whatever you want than to hire people. And at that point there's no reason to ever extract anybody.
| QUOTE (Ravor) |
Of course extractions remain perfectly viable even after you've accepted the logical end results that 'softs would have on the labormarket, sure it's cheaper to build a vatjob researcher then to extract Bob Research, but your vatjob doesn't come with the intimate knowledge of "Project NERPS" that Bob Research has so Ares extracts him instead. The fact that by removing Bob Research delays MCT is gravy. |
No, that's why you'd do a datasteal. If you take Bob Researcher, you're better off stealing all the research notes and info and then slotting more level 5's to work on it. Taking all the notes and samples likewise slows MCT down. Much more than removing a single die or at most two from the team die pool for the research. Just take Sally Secretary and stuff a level 5 skill chip in her head.
| QUOTE (Ravor) |
Excuse me? If the corps have to compete and value their employees then what exactly is keeping Kim Extraction from simply giving her two-week notice and returning to her previous corp? And given your view of the Sixth World the corp wouldn't dare level threats against her family and friends, after all, why would anyone work for a company that did that? |
Why would they work for the company that drugs them, stuffs a skill chip in their head and pays them jack squat? As to what would keep her from giving a two week notice? The same thing that keeps me from giving notice where I am now and then trying to get my old job back. The company that lost me no longer trusts me to be loyal. They wouldn't take me back, no matter how much they may or may not be suffering from losing me. Paranoia on the part of the Megacorp means they never will know if it was a willing extraction or not. So maybe Kim Extraction is now planning to go back to MCT from Ares for another couple weeks in order to steal research materials. In order to keep Kim Extraction from leaving MCT in the first place, MCT sets things up so Kim thinks her mother who's a secretary at MCT might lose her job if she leaves, or there might be an accident at the child care before she can get her kids out, etc. Fear is a much better influence, fear of the unknown. Not drugging your employees into a stupor.
They're called wage slaves by Shadowrunners. I'm sure that there isn't a line item on Ares' General ledger called Wageslaves at all. They're called employees and they get benefits like vacation and health and dental and retirement. Page 41 of BBB states that much.
Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jan 31 2008, 05:56 PM
...I got it...National NERPS day
...NERPS, for R&R.
Posted by: Kanada Ten Jan 31 2008, 06:07 PM
| QUOTE |
| They're called wageslaves by Shadowrunners. I'm sure that there isn't a line item on Ares' General ledger called Wageslaves at all. They're called employees and they get benefits like vacation and health and dental and retirement. Page 41 of BBB states that much. |
Their called wageslaves by pretty much everyone, and they hardly mind - most times they prefer it (a large number of canon extractions are initiated by the employees themselves trying to wrest back control of their lives - see "Wake of the Comet" for one such). They are slaves because they are so far in debt that to maintain their lifestyle they mortgage their future through strict contracts with their employers.
Often times their only real assets are stocks in the corporations themselves (Corporate Security Handbook), but they are given vacation time and health benefits, but where can they afford to go? Corporate resorts and clinics...
Posted by: Ravor Jan 31 2008, 06:28 PM
| QUOTE (cryptoknight) |
| How am I wrong. We're talking about simple economics... it's cheaper to slot up a bunch of minimum wage people with level 5 in whatever you want than to hire people. And at that point there's no reason to ever extract anybody. |
You are wrong because you are trying to assume that people could only be extracted based off of their skill rankings, that is a premise that I am not going to accept.
| QUOTE (cryptoknight) |
| No, that's why you'd do a datasteal. If you take Bob Researcher, you're better off stealing all the research notes and info and then slotting more level 5's to work on it. Taking all the notes and samples likewise slows MCT down. Much more than removing a single die or at most two from the team die pool for the research. Just take Sally Secretary and stuff a level 5 skill chip in her head. |
No, because Bob offers something that a vatjob or even another highly skilled researcher can't, intimate knowledge of the Project NERPS data, that increases his value to the corp because Ares has to be able to rush the NERPS to market first, second place is merely the first loser.
| QUOTE (cryptoknight) |
| Why would they work for the company that drugs them, stuffs a skill chip in their head and pays them jack squat? |
Because the wageslaves don't really have any other choice, sure they are required to eat drek their entire lives as the corp crushes their very souls, but what other choice do they really have? Joining the SINless masses is just trading one hell for another, and few people are willing to make that choice.
And once again I ask, in your view of the Sixth World where corps have to worry about keeping their employees happy in order to prvent them from leaving why would anyone work at a corp that uses scare tactics to keep them from leaving?
Oh, and I finally reread page 41 in Fourth Edition Core, and I don't think it says what you seem to think it does.
Posted by: cryptoknight Jan 31 2008, 07:03 PM
| QUOTE (Page 41 Core) |
IN THE FAMILY For the average citizen with a SIN, a spouse, a mortgage, and 2.4 children, employment with a megacorporation is a good thing to aspire to. When you join a corp, you join an extended family, business nation-state, or driven meritocracy, depending on the corp in question—each has its own culture. It’s not uncommon for people to join up right out of college (agreements even prior to this aren’t unheard of for certain key prospects) and remain employed at the same corp—advancing up the corporate ladder and living in the cozy confines of a corporate arcology—until their retirement. If you’re a loyal employee, the corp takes care of your every need; in the case of some of the largest, there’s no real need to ever leave corp territory if you don’t want to—they provide literally everything you could want. It’s only when employees (especially those highly valued for their uncommon skills) get itchy feet that things can start getting uncomfortable. The corps expect and enforce loyalty in return for their beneficence. |
This is far from a drugged out mind numb chip headed wageslave. And since the only skills that have virtually no value chipped are magic skills. You'd never bother extracting anybody if you could slot a level 5 into joe schmoe and him or her as a drone would do the job.
Posted by: Kanada Ten Jan 31 2008, 07:28 PM
Posted by: Ravor Jan 31 2008, 08:30 PM
| QUOTE (cryptoknight) |
| This is far from a drugged out mind numb chip headed wageslave. |
Is it now? I disagree.
| QUOTE (cryptoknight) |
| And since the only skills that have virtually no value chipped are magic skills. You'd never bother extracting anybody if you could slot a level 5 into joe schmoe and him or her as a drone would do the job. |
Once again you mistaken on the reasons that people would be extracted, I'll try this once more, You don't extract someone because they have a ( Rating 5 ) skill, you extract someone because they can provide you with things that aren't covered by a 'soft!
You don't extract a head researcher because he has ( NERPS Engineering 5 ), you extract him because the extra time it would take to get your researchers, vatjob or otherwise up to speed on the data without him could very well mean the difference between being the first to market and a distant second.
Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jan 31 2008, 09:39 PM
...Superbowl Sunday. (UCAS, CAS, PCC).
Considering how the game has changed with the times Shadowbeat the Superbowl would still be a hot ticket. Superbowl Sunday has gone beyond just a football match. Theres big time celebrity talent during halftime and don't forget about the adverts. Corps would still be laying out big for 30 - 60 seconds of airtime to one-up each other in a contest of commercial creativity.
Posted by: Sponge Jan 31 2008, 10:12 PM
| QUOTE (Ravor) | ||
I suspect the difference lays in that you are looking at what would be logical from the standpoint of modern society where-as I'm looking at what would be logical from a Cyberpunk standpoint which is very much a creature of an earlier era. |
Maybe if you actually spelled out what you think would be logical from a "Cyberpunk standpoint" (whatever that is), and why, it would be a lot easier to get where you're coming from, because I think there's a number of readers (myself included) that just don't get why you're going on about slaves and feudalism.
DS
Posted by: Kanada Ten Jan 31 2008, 11:23 PM
| QUOTE (Sponge) |
| Maybe if you actually spelled out what you think would be logical from a "Cyberpunk standpoint" (whatever that is), and why, it would be a lot easier to get where you're coming from, because I think there's a number of readers (myself included) that just don't get why you're going on about slaves and feudalism. |
Seriously? Or just how much he's emphasizing it?
(If you're serious, new topic it under "Feudal Megacorporations?" or something, cause it's a big subject.)
Posted by: kanislatrans Jan 31 2008, 11:53 PM
International Day of Peace -may 10- a day when the whole world lays down its weapons, steps back and takes a deep breath, releasing all the negative energy that they accumulate through the year. It is a day to rejoice in our differences and reaffirm our vow of tolerance for all people, not just those who agree with us. Observing this helps heal bruised egos and strengthen us as a species.
also known as Hippy day.
oh, wait. shadowrun is in the cyberpunk genre not the fantasy genre. my bad. 
please go back to pummeling each other senseless.
Posted by: Ravor Feb 1 2008, 06:04 AM
Oh, I always thought May 10th was "beat a hippy day", my bad.
Posted by: Fortune Feb 1 2008, 08:38 AM
| QUOTE (Ravor) |
| Oh, I always thought May 10th was "beat a hippy day", my bad. |
They originally named it that, but with a totally different connotation.
Posted by: Kyoto Kid Feb 1 2008, 04:00 PM
...I thought it was beat a hippy for Christ day...
...at least since the 80's
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