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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Various Combat assists

Posted by: djinni Jan 24 2008, 01:32 AM

currently the way I attempt to garner the bonus is bby using Micro skimmers on a preprogrammed command to update user data on the network automatically and input new data as needed.
basically this gives my team a 3D HUD and ambush directional for combat, we always will know where the enemy is and where they are moving in real time not just their present location whenever the hacker can get his turn to update positions.
the sensory enhancements of the dornes can be overlayed onto the subscribers of the network etc...
what else can we add to always get the bonus?
in addition what do we need to add that we are missing in order to gain the non rules advantages in combat and noncombat.

Posted by: Ravor Jan 24 2008, 01:49 AM

The question that I would be asking is how do you keep your shiny toy from being hacked/jammed?

*Edit*

Or being the target of Ball Lighting?

Posted by: djinni Jan 24 2008, 02:17 AM

QUOTE (Ravor @ Jan 23 2008, 08:49 PM)

The question that I would be asking is how do you keep your shiny toy from being hacked/jammed?

in our campaign I have 4 microskimmers and 2 flyspy's covered in Ruthenium, that are the "real" ones, and i have 5 that are not that are dummy drones to occupy attention from hackers teamates.
along with sprites, agents and general security...
obviously we are running hidden, and that coupled with background traffic makes it hard to find the correct network. so if the hacker is spending time on the drones he's not inhibiting me from hacking his buddies and that's a win win. since they are all within 10m most of the time jamming is going to not be a big deal.
area jamming cuts out the enemy as well. so no fault there.
if they want to shoot the drones they are shooting them and not me....again...win win...
edit:
ball lighting is spells not cast at us...win win...

Posted by: Ravor Jan 25 2008, 05:06 AM

Something to remember is that a ball lightening cast at your drones stands a very good chance of frying you as well.

And unless I'm misreading the jamming rules, the fact that you are keeping your drones close to you won't actually help, although I imagine that you could spend the necessary money to boost your drones signal as high as possible and hope for the best. I don't consider the fact that jamming takes everyone off the air to be a huge deturant in most cases. For most sec-guards, it's better for everyone to be blind since they already have the "home turf" advantage and their job isn't really to capture the Runners, they just need to delay them long enough for the heavy backup to arrive.

Posted by: Shrike30 Jan 25 2008, 07:29 AM

Sometimes having a bigass network of drones around you is great. You get cool bonuses like this one.

Sometimes having a bigass network of drones around you is a good way to have your radio signal triangulated and some seriously heavy fire put down on your head before you realize you've entered someone's free-fire zone.

You decide

Posted by: Ryu Jan 25 2008, 04:56 PM

The drone network trick can work really good. Be careful indoors, grenades don´t discriminate inside their detonation area.

Consider having a radar sensor installed and relay information from that.

What I would/do allow:
- target aquisition without direct LOS (at -2 DP due to coordination issues)
- tactical coordination of ambushes (DP bonus for surprise based on tactics test)
- information about armor weaknesses (DP bonus for Called shots)

Note that you will not get +4 on principle.

Posted by: djinni Jan 25 2008, 07:56 PM

QUOTE (Ryu @ Jan 25 2008, 11:56 AM)

Note that you will not get +4 on principle.

th real issue is not really getting the flat +4 bonus however since +4 is the max, that is what I am shooting for.
the real purpose of the drones is to have other bonuses like you suggested.
I'm of the mind that non specific non rules related bonuses are much better than "hey you get an extra die" the drones scouting ahead finding traps alerting to realtime tactical information etc...

if someone throws ball lighting at the drones they are going to be zapping themselves.

true signal jamming if successful can mess up the wireless part of this plan, however I have a backup plan for that.

Posted by: Ravor Jan 27 2008, 08:30 AM

QUOTE (djinni)

if someone throws ball lighting at the drones they are going to be zapping themselves.

Perhaps, but with the goodness of being able to counterspell your own weaves it might very well be the lesser of two evils.

QUOTE (djinni)

true signal jamming if successful can mess up the wireless part of this plan, however I have a backup plan for that.

Which is? (I'm going to assume that you are thinking about using lasers, which in turn would be defeatable by the smoke which the sec-guards should already be using anyways.)

Posted by: Prime Mover Jan 27 2008, 06:29 PM

It's my understanding that +2VR bonus if for "matrix tests". Matrix tests as defined in BBB early in matrix section are tests in which program replaces Attribute.

Example; Skill+Program+2 in full VR

Other tests would'nt receive bonus then?

Posted by: Ryu Jan 27 2008, 07:03 PM

How many drones are you loosing on average? The rigger in my group who uses that trick found that once or twice per round a drone will be the only target security has, even if one is careful. Not that expensive, but has to be accounted for.

Posted by: Prime Mover Jan 27 2008, 07:16 PM

I'm allowing the bonus +1 per team member max of +4 as long as everyones shareing info via commlink with at least one person (hacker) coordinating. I'd allow drones to stand in for team members for that purpose.

Posted by: djinni Jan 28 2008, 04:43 AM

QUOTE (Prime Mover @ Jan 27 2008, 02:16 PM)

that's something we hadn't thought of. we always look to see how much above the "norm" you are and then just go hrm...seems like a +2. our method didn't seem too consistent.

So far I've been lucky enough to keep the drones in cover or unseen when they were the only available targets. I'd be losing prolly 2 per run once my luck runs out.

he throws ball lighting and has to resist drain, in addition he and his companions are in the area, that's better than losing a few drones.
why would they be using smoke? okay they throw smoke and now can't see. that's not very smart.

edit: how long do your combat's usually last?

Posted by: Fortune Jan 28 2008, 05:14 AM

QUOTE (Prime Mover)

I could see that getting silly in a platoon situation.

I'm thinking a straight +2 (or even +3 if a really good vantage point is achieved by one linked party) across the board for anyone 'linked' to the network (including drones). Seems more than adequate.

Posted by: kzt Jan 28 2008, 05:23 AM

Plus you need 4 successes to affect the drones at all. Which needs 12 dice of magic/sorcery on average. Not your average SR4 mage.

Posted by: Fortune Jan 28 2008, 05:27 AM

QUOTE (kzt)

Not your average SR4 mage.

Not your average SR4 NPC mage.

Posted by: Ravor Jan 28 2008, 06:28 AM

Unless I've misread something indirect spells don't have to deal with object resistance. Although it's true that the mage would have to resist drain and possibly be fried, remember that your mirco-skimmers will always fail after being hit by the smallest electrical attack since they don't even get a resistance roll, and your flyspys aren't much better off with a ( Dicepool 1 ). (Of course, ARSE might have rules that change things.)

AS for throwing smoke, why in the hells wouldn't the sec-guards be using their control of the enviroment to their fullest advantage? Not only should they be throwing smoke, they should also be lobbing flashpacks, turning the lights off, jamming everything, and using supression fire/cover. In the end their job isn't to defeat the runners, they just need to slow the runners down long enough for backup to arrive.

As for how long my combats last, the answer is that it varies quite a bit depending on the exact situation and whether or not one side or the other can get the drop on the other. However, I try to run my NPCs as realistically as possible, which means that in the majority of cases they want to be able to walk away from the firefight so they are going to be fighting as defensivably as possible.

Posted by: Ryu Jan 28 2008, 01:04 PM

The mages answer is/should be a to expend a combat service on a spirit of choice, preferably Air/w. Elemental Attack Lightning. Not ball lightning. Close combat shreds drones, and drones won´t escape a spirit.

Out of sight/hidden is hard to do indoors, because even ruthenium and size mod won´t fool someone with Visual Enhancement 3. Or high Int/Perception. A radio signal scanner 6 is a whopping 150 ¥, should that option be to expensive for your taste.

If collateral damage is not an issue, shred small drones with grenades. Suppressive fire works real well, too.
--
Combats vary in length. Security Guards are constantly retreating or hiding. Engaging them costs a great amount of time, ignoring them carries the risk of sudden attack. The all-out attack is left in the domain of gangs and Fast Response Teams. While the former usually go down fast, the latter are reason for the runners to flee.

The main function of the drones is keeping tabs on the guards. You will want to know of incomming attacks beforehand, but you will usually not want personal LOS. The doberman is great at closing possible vectors of attack at the same time, but that would be leaving the topic of this thread.

Posted by: djinni Jan 28 2008, 01:25 PM

I see the difference in our games now.
the average security guard doesn't have cybereyes and multiple vision enhancements.
they are full essence cheap replacements. if they die big deal you hire another one.
they are not the High threat response team who is in route once the alarm is sounded.
so throwing smoke blinds them.
flash bang disorients them.
jamming them prevents communication to the other guards and results in friendly fire.
a mage is going to be employed only at highly sensetive areas, not every high security location. and even then not 24/7. he's expensive cuz he's magic.

QUOTE (Ravor)

AS for throwing smoke, why in the hells wouldn't the sec-guards be using their control of the enviroment to their fullest advantage?

because they are people. not robots. they don't respond exactly the same way to every situation. if a shadowrunner walks through the high security door and doesn't have a pass the security guard doesn't open fire. he says "hey buddy you can't be back here." they don't use 100% strategically sound tactics because its the heat of the moment they are hardened professionals they are guys who have families to go home to.
Doc Wagon HTR, the Jaguar units, or red samurai, or Tir Ghost squad...
those guys aren't security guards.

Posted by: Ravor Jan 28 2008, 03:24 PM

No, you don't "see the difference between our games", taking cover in order to avoid being shot at and falling back to the corp's SOP responce to being invaded is a far cry from being a robot that uses 100% strategically sound tactics.

Although given the cheapness of low grade cyberware and the fact that the corps can mandate implantation while forcing the sec-guards to pay for it, there isn't any reason for sec-guards not to have gone under the knife, although before you "see another difference" no, I'm not saying that sec-guards are sub-essence cyberzombies.

As for mages, sure they are rare and can't be everywhere at once, however as Ryu has pointed out spirits are relatively cheap and any target that actually needs your drone sensor net should be important enough to warrent better protection.

Posted by: djinni Jan 28 2008, 04:56 PM

I like the change fortune suggested, just have to look at 8 different levels of the AR "bonus" levels 1-4 add their rating to all test, levels -1 through -4 add their levels to the bonus as well. I think using a further level decreasing IP's by one should take care of additional hacking attemps to overload the users. such as throwing a spam virus giving him 2 popups for every popup he closes. anoying in AR but detrimental in combat.

taking cover isn't considered a tactic its a response its something everyone does, who has common sense. "OMG they are shooting DUCK!"
retreating is a tactical decision, is it good to retreat now? is it bad? if you shoot the guard in the leg, he's thinking "crap it ain't worth minimum wage! you can have it!"
the drone that is linked to the guys who just shot him whizzes around the corner, instead of shooting it (which will piss off the rigger). he runs away.
yeah spirits can patrol an area for cheaper than a mage...but you get what you pay for.

QUOTE (Ravor)

just so there is no confusion your security guards are cybered up and mine aren't...that's one difference.

Posted by: Ryu Jan 28 2008, 05:46 PM

QUOTE (djinni)

QUOTE (Ravor)

AS for throwing smoke, why in the hells wouldn't the sec-guards be using their control of the enviroment to their fullest advantage?

What I wrote is in reference to normal sec guards. Googles with Smartlink, Visual Enhancement 3 and Flare Comp are avail 10 / 850 ¥ and can be shared between shifts. The visual enhancement is a no-brainer for guards, since people sneaking by are detected via perception. And smartlink googles are a given for a security corp.

The aforementioned sensor is 150 ¥.

Retreating and regrouping is a standard strategy for unaugmented guards that face runners. This is where your drones are at their best; the group itself does not have time for pursuit. In situations where you can deploy a drone network, the guards are on active alert (or will soon be on alert).

Posted by: djinni Jan 28 2008, 07:25 PM

QUOTE (Ryu @ Jan 28 2008, 12:46 PM)

in theory that logic is good, and if the facility is new the goggles are in great condition, but after its been there for a year, they get broken lost, the batteries are only good for 25% charge, and then maybe one or two people have working goggles that are on the fritz alot.

for the sensor you have to have someone operate it and have the appropriate skill for its use. not everyone is going to have that, and while an extremely sensetive area would have it the normal security wouldn't neccissarily still have a working one if they had one in the first place.

btw, the higher level security zones where they all have working gear, and/or minor cheap cyber. yeah I'm still working out the details on strategies for those areas and your thoughts on what they should be doing are great.

most of the time retreating to regroup ends up being retreat to surrender. again higher paid guards at a more secure facility would retreat regroup and disorient to ambush.

Posted by: Ryu Jan 28 2008, 08:19 PM

Remember that I GM for a player with that strategy. It works financially in our group because they can afford to replace lost drones. I rarely have to use augmented guards with these strategies, as they can provide enough of a challenge.

A well-equipped group, with someone like you, one who has worked out a drone support strategy, will not be challenged by guards with bad equipment. So your campaign will move up to better targets. With the players in my group we have to start at that point. A quarter million spend on bioware and weapons does make normal security into easy prey.

But on the higer level you can really have fun with your drone network. You need ground combat drones, aerial combat drones, and small recon drones of all kinds. All at the same time.

Recon drones scout ahead, aerial combat drones provide flexible firepower around the firebase of your team, and ground combat drones are left at strategic point defending an avenue of retreat. Having multiple recon drones running is not exactly a priority, having all in one slot (commanded as group) really becomes an option.

Posted by: Ravor Jan 29 2008, 12:28 AM

QUOTE (djinni)

just so there is no confusion your security guards are cybered up and mine aren't...that's one difference.

And there is a huge difference between the corps forcing sec-guards to go under the knife and turning them into a high threat responce team as you claimed above, just as there is a huge difference between having sec-guards that aren't cowardly morons and recruiting Tir Ghosts.

And if you are going to assume that sec-guard equipment is subject to being maintained as an arguement why sec-guards won't have working equipment then your DM should also be charging the characters with upkeep costs.

Posted by: djinni Jan 29 2008, 01:53 AM

QUOTE (Ryu @ Jan 28 2008, 03:19 PM)

still working out the finances, we tend to just scrape by. and have a little extra to save on. if the runs don't go perfect we tend to get screwed, and we have a few players that jump the gun alot.
so finding a way to get the maximum ability is kinda crucial

upkeep on your gear is something that is accounted for in purchasing a lifestyle

Posted by: Ravor Jan 29 2008, 02:03 AM

Lifestyle costs may cover alot of things, including dining out and staying in fashion, but unless ARSE (Having troubles ordering it, PayPal and Battlecorps had a glitch somewhere and I'm waiting to get it straightened out.) changes things in no way do they even pretend to cover equipment upkeep. If they did then there would be guidelines on what level of lifestyle was needed to upkeep different pieces of equipment, after all you can't expect a Rigger's "low lifestle" to cover keeping her T-Bird and various other expensive toys in tip-top shape, or a squatter Street-Sammy's cyber from going on the frizt from lack of repair.

Posted by: Ryu Jan 29 2008, 02:47 AM

I hate to say that, but a drone network strategy does not work in a low-paying campaign.
Even with Arsenal, lifestyle does not cover anything in the way of runner gear. You have to repair drones on your own cost.

A bit off-topic, but the question begs itself. Why do you run against weaker targets than you could handle, if you are lacking money all the time? With that kind of preparation you can handle augmented guards. My campaign pays 20k¥+/run, enough to aquire new gear once upon a while.

Posted by: MaxHunter Jan 29 2008, 03:39 AM

adding to the threadjack, once my runner players got too good for their normal opposition they started getting hired for tougher and more pricey runs. Now their characters are much more affluent and also desperately running away from Ares hit squads with much better gear and stats. But the game is so good, ah!

Cheers,

Max

Posted by: djinni Jan 29 2008, 04:23 AM

QUOTE (Ryu)

I struggle to just keep a medium lifestyle. and as long as I don't lose any drones we'll be doing good. and if I can figure out the maximum bonuses for most/all situations then better runs = better money
like maxhunter said, they have to prove themselves before getting "the good stuff."
btw max its not a threadjack, since it helps to figure out how to get the most bonus by figuring out the opposition.

QUOTE

A bit off-topic, but the question begs itself. Why do you run against weaker targets than you could handle, if you are lacking money all the time? With that kind of preparation you can handle augmented guards. My campaign pays 20k¥+/run, enough to aquire new gear once upon a while.

you make it sound like the runners have a choice in this matter? why do people work in minimum wage jobs? why do people not take their car to the mechanic when it starts making the tinking noises? after word gets out we are good we'll get noticed because its a game and not real life. but until then we have to struggle.
the last run we did was just over 22k. but divided 6 ways you don't go home with much at the end of the night.

up keep is just normal wear and tear, taking your car to the mechanic when it breaks, replacing the solar cells on your drones. as long as the lifestyle can handle that level of maintenance there is no reason not to add it to the lifestyle, since the main rulebook is vague on so many levels if you start demanding that the rules be shown for every single thing then you get into less of having a good time and more of arguing about what rule does what.

Posted by: kzt Jan 29 2008, 05:06 AM

Then look at freelancing. Jewlery stores, for example....

Posted by: Ryu Jan 29 2008, 12:15 PM

I´m talking 20k¥ per run and runner, quite a bit more. Quite a few campaigns don´t have runners struggling for medium lifestyle. If mine did, I´d give any rigger fair warning.

Your campaign seems to focus on runs against ill-prepared security forces. How about telling your GM that you are going to steal something valueable? A collective of six runners at the 400 BP level can easily beat lightly augmented guards. Especially with that supporting drone network. Unaugmented security would be quite boring for my group.

Some things you´ll need to deal with:
- Helmet or Googles with vision enhancement, flare compensation and smartlink.
The guards will spot your drones, flash grenades don´t work, and they hit better. Deadly for small drones. You´ll need to be careful coordinating the position of your drones.

- Automatic/ heavy weapons. Makes that positional data on the guards much more important. I recently threatened my group with ONE enemy, using a full-auto combat shotgun. On the upside, selling captured gear starts to be profitable.

- Enemy combat drone networks. Great for replenishing your number of drones, but very dangerous. Radio signal scanners should be rather common here, as the operator will have electronic warfare skill.

- Enemy mages can have drones shredded. OTOH, the spirit tasked with that is not trying to shred you. A toss-up.

My impression is that you can deal with all this. What kind of members does your team have? The configuration of your support network somewhat depends on that. My friend is running it this way:
- blimp drone over the target facility. Gives fair warning of arriving reinforcements. Also the prime candidate for being shot down, once it is noticed.
- microskimmer scouting ahead. Can often avoid destruction, but if it can´t, whoever entered the room first, instead of the drone, would be in a world of hurt, too. If this one survives, it can relay information to the rest of the team.
- Steel Lynx / Doberman as mobile cover. Especially with your low money, see Arsenal for better armor. While that position is boring for a samurai, you can leave a drone behind to cover your retreat. Anything that frees up a samurai for a fixed investment under 10k¥ is good. Weapon of choice is an assault rifle with underbarrel grenade launcher.
- MCT Nissan Rotordrone, same weapon, max armor. Mobile suppressive fire.
- Microdrones as spies, depending on the run. A human is much harder to infiltrate.

The key trick is using active target aquisition with the combat drones, nicely creating auto-updated positional information for the whole team, as long as sensor lock is not broken. Gain: indirect target aquisition for runners without LOS, info on the strategy the guards use. Depending on the sensor suite setup, you also get info on the guards equipment. See MAD sensors.