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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ New to Shadowrun
Posted by: Lionhearted Jan 30 2008, 03:10 PM
I actually have no idea why i already had a Dumpshock profile 
however that turned out to be a good thing as it will save me some trouble.
Anyway, my issue is this, I want to GM Shadowrun 4th and both me and my players have really limited experience of shadowrun, Mostly when we play it tend to be the "Mayhem deluxe killing spree" style of play, with rather immature elements, which mostly results from no direct directives or motivations in the group.
So first of all, how do I manage a such vast project as a shadowrun campaign?
How to structure a "Tutorial" to make the players more familiar with shadowrun?
How to structure the group? (most of the time it will end up in homo.. eh metahomocide, if they dont got a good reason to trust eachother)
how to motivate the players? that is, how to make them intrested in actual running instead of just sitting round doing nothing.
how to structure runs?
how to introduce runs to the group?
how to introduce some sense of continuity to the game (Sparing us from the monster of the day dilemma)?
how to build the mood of the game, introducing the flavour of megacorps, corrupt organisations, street gangs, Mr johnsons, Conspiracies, well get the gig, the shadowrun mood simply enough ^^
Luckily i have some feel of shadowrun (more than my players) from playing SR3 with another group, but it still seem like an over my head project, so please.. give me some experienced advices.
I plan on running a rather lowpowered campaign having the players be newly debunked wageslaves with an offer they cannot refuse. giving a more living feel, hindering people to begin with the no-personality-cyberstuffed-streetsam or the Mystical-yet-cliché-mage thanks in advance
/Sam
Posted by: toturi Jan 30 2008, 03:17 PM
The default campaign level assumes that the runners are experienced runners.
You can lower the campaign level but be warned that even experienced GMs can get the mix wrong. My advice is to try out the default level complete with the no-personality-cyberstuffed-streetsam or the Mystical-yet-cliché-mage first, get some experience running SR4 at that level, then run a game you want.
Posted by: DireRadiant Jan 30 2008, 03:20 PM
Shadowrun is whatever you make of it. There is no One True Shadowrun.
The objective is to have fun!
The absolute top number one thing is that the GM and players are all on the same page as to whatever your groups version of fun is.
So step one, talk to players and find out what they expect, and tell them what you expect. Discuss.
Oh, and don't forget to use the search function, one tip is to look for posts more then 30 days old. I have vague memories of this topic coming up and there are lots of discussions to read.
Posted by: Lionhearted Jan 30 2008, 03:20 PM
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| The default campaign level assumes that the runners are experienced runners. You can lower the campaign level but be warned that even experienced GMs can get the mix wrong. My advice is to try out the default level complete with the no-personality-cyberstuffed-streetsam or the Mystical-yet-cliché-mage first, get some experience running SR4 at that level, then run a game you want. |
well we tried that, and the result was rather bad, it was to much for the players to handle at once, I feel more if they gradually was introduced to such things it would make things easier
Posted by: toturi Jan 30 2008, 03:23 PM
What was too much for the players to handle? Combat? Magic? Hacking? The game world?
You might want to run the classic first intro - Food Fight to get familiarised with the combat mechanics.
Posted by: Lionhearted Jan 30 2008, 03:27 PM
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| What was too much for the players to handle? Combat? Magic? Hacking? The game world? You might want to run the classic first intro - Food Fight to get familiarised with the combat mechanics. |
Well combat was about the only thing they managed..
they used to fantasy roleplaying so all this focus on gear, contacts and a more subtle approach (which I know they appriecate if they just get the chance to do it)
Also, with the fantasy biasing the usual approach to an run is .. well Dungeoncrawling, beat your way to the goal, and claim the price...
We actually managed to totally wreck a rave party by getting high (IC) and calling Alamos 20k to crash it
Posted by: Whipstitch Jan 30 2008, 03:28 PM
Eh, as a player I always preferred the minimal personality street samurai cliche that I built and tailored myself to an imposed minimal personality wageslave cliche that I quietly resent; if you want everyone to end up with characters they really want to play and enjoy collaboration is the key more than anything. Low powered may very well might be the right path for your group, but it's rarely the quick fix that people hope it will be.
Also, you should be careful with starting things off with offers that can't be refused. They're great for getting things moving early on and providing some initial motivation, but wageslave PCs that are only running the shadows to avoid punishment likely aren't going to stay motivated for long without some railroading or suddenly developing a taste for getting shot at. It can work out fine, of course, but it's something to be mindful of.
Posted by: Lionhearted Jan 30 2008, 03:35 PM
Well as an offer they cant refuse.. its more like an old adversary contacts them "well, I got a lil' job for ya, Let's say its for old friendships sake, i dont want you to end up the the sprawls ya know.. now here's the deal" that kind of deal, really the only choice they got is total poverty or a job of questionable nature
Posted by: DireRadiant Jan 30 2008, 03:39 PM
| QUOTE (Lionhearted) |
| they used to fantasy roleplaying so all this focus on gear, contacts and a more subtle approach (which I know they appriecate if they just get the chance to do it) |
Have you told them this is what you expect? Are they ok with it, do they understand? What do they expect?
You can reference other materials outside of shadowrun if it helps. A good source is to see if there is a movie you've all seen that sets the same kind of tone you want in the game.
"I'm trying to do Ocean's 11, you there, you play Danny Ocean, you are the demolitions expert with the english accent. etc" You'll notice there was no guns or shooting in the film.
Posted by: Lionhearted Jan 30 2008, 03:47 PM
Man you're right.. Ocean's 11 is a good way to explain the basics of shadowrun gameplay ^^
Our communication is bad at best..
Posted by: Lionhearted Jan 30 2008, 04:09 PM
Okey, so this is my basic idea (im thinking on the fly right now but thats how I work)
The players all worked for a major corp, prolly an A-rated one.. as some finacial drawback (or so they were told) struck the corp they are fired, and as they were part of an Corporate beneficial program they're left with nothing (that is they had a pretty good living before but as the Corp took care of mostly of their needs, including quarters and vehicles, they got nothing left except maybe a com and some spare nuyens) in this time of need they rented a squat apartment together, and finds out that a former wageslave has a really hardtime getting a new job.
when things look as grimmest they're contacted by an old colleague, That offers them a fair sum of nuyen in exchange for some services of questionable nature, he also gives them contact with a guy that can fix unSIN'ed Credsticks and some other stuff they might need to finish this task, thus their first run begins
I plan to let this Colleague act as their Mr J for their first mission, maybe there is a deeper underlying reason.. perhaps he is just acting as a intermediate for the corp who wanted unseen yet dependable hands to do some dirtywork for them, maybe he got his own motives, either way.. once you go into the shadow.. the way back is really dark
Posted by: Ed_209a Jan 30 2008, 04:11 PM
100% behind what DireRadiant had to say. No matter how masterful your plot and world crafting is, if the players aren't having fun, you are a bad GM.
If all of you are new to SR, I would take things in small, manageable bites. Start with the stock setting, so you won't have to convert & rebalance.
Arbitrarily rule out magic and the crunchy bits of the matrix (for now). This lets you not have to mess with mages and hackers (for now).
When all of you are used to using skills, and combat, start bringing in magic and the matrix.
Posted by: Lionhearted Jan 30 2008, 04:15 PM
The players tend to like my campaigns, and most of the troubles we have in the group is from disorganisation.. in lack of better things to do they resort to PvP, raids, and in some cases rape, unmotivated murder of civilians, drug addictions and such
Posted by: Ed_209a Jan 30 2008, 04:16 PM
| QUOTE (Lionhearted @ Jan 30 2008, 11:09 AM) |
| Okey, so this is my basic idea (im thinking on the fly right now but thats how I work) The players all worked for a major corp, prolly an A-rated one.. as some finacial drawback (or so they were told) struck the corp they are fired, and as they were part of an Corporate beneficial program they're left with nothing (that is they had a pretty good living before but as the Corp took care of mostly of their needs, including quarters and vehicles, they got nothing left except maybe a com and some spare nuyens) in this time of need they rented a squat apartment together, and finds out that a former wageslave has a really hardtime getting a new job. when things look as grimmest they're contacted by an old collegue, That offers them a fair sum of nuyen in exchange for some services of questionable nature, he also gives them contact with a guy that can fix unSIN'ed Credsticks and some other stuff they might need to finish this task, thus their first run begins |
That isn't a bad setup.
I would stack the deck in the players favor, though. 5 former accountants will have a _hard_ time in the shadows.
If a few were security guards (proto-sams), and one was in IT (proto-hacker), and one was in sales (proto-face), and one was in maintainance (proto-techie), it will go smoother.
A former corp mage would be a little more of a stretch. I believe that corp mages don't stay unemployed long, unless it is by their choice. Mages are rare, and in high demand. Perhaps the mage fled rather than being downsized?
Posted by: DireRadiant Jan 30 2008, 04:20 PM
For good introductions that allow you to concentrate on managing the game, and not worrying so much about the story and content, try http://shadowrun4.com/missions/downloads/ . They are relatively straightforward, and usually have both the subtle and unsubtle bits. They are designed to be introductory yet fun.
I recommend Happenstance for it's excellent range of options. Starts with a bar fight, but the main goal involves stealthily following and investigating an illegal cargo run.
Posted by: Lionhearted Jan 30 2008, 04:21 PM
Yeah, A mixed group is a good start, i however dont want any overspecialized characters, maybe one of the guards has a knack for electronics.. or the face spent long hours playing simsense fps's..
Thanks for the Tip DireRadiant, i will take a peek..
Posted by: klinktastic Jan 30 2008, 04:36 PM
Actually, if you want to listen to a group actually go through a run, check out this guy's site. He puts up the audio version of his games.
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=20197
Posted by: Ravor Jan 30 2008, 04:56 PM
Personally I've always enjoyed the "a life in a day" type campaigns where the plot hooks were mostly generated by the players themselves, and in the Sixth World, "PvP" is perfectly fitting in the setting, after all the characters are very bad men/women who shoot people in the fact for money.
However with that said, personally I'd start small, let the Runners come up with whatever background they want, but have a common contact (I've always given out a couple of free campaign contacts to everyone.) call them together as a team for a job that is somewhat personal, perhaps some or most of them are new to the city the campaign is set in so it isn't a stretch when they don't necessarily know the score.
Posted by: Lionhearted Jan 30 2008, 05:04 PM
PvP is not an option.. There is players that get very upset over that kind of things, that is just why i need to structure things up
Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jan 30 2008, 05:09 PM
| QUOTE (Lionhearted) |
| Mostly when we play it tend to be the "Mayhem deluxe killing spree" style of play, with rather immature elements, which mostly results from no direct directives or motivations in the group. |
I'm a little confused. Is this a goal, as in, it is your favored style and you want to continue in this style, or is this a past trend that you're trying to avoid?
I'm not making any judgments, I'm just trying to make sure I'm clear on what you're shooting for.
Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jan 30 2008, 05:17 PM
| QUOTE (Ed_209a) |
| 100% behind what DireRadiant had to say. No matter how masterful your plot and world crafting is, if the players aren't having fun, you are a bad GM. |
...or you just have the wrong scenario for the group of players at hand. Doesn't mean you are necessarily a bad GM. I've had this happen before myself.
That is why sitting down & talking with your players beforehand is a good idea.
Posted by: Lionhearted Jan 30 2008, 05:18 PM
| QUOTE (Moon-Hawk) | ||
I'm a little confused. Is this a goal, as in, it is your favored style and you want to continue in this style, or is this a past trend that you're trying to avoid? I'm not making any judgments, I'm just trying to make sure I'm clear on what you're shooting for. |
Its the general degeneration of campaigns without clear motives..
My motive is to avoid that and trying to introducing a more mature, a little more serious (IC) gameplay and thus making it a more rewarding game for everyone
Posted by: Ed_209a Jan 30 2008, 05:33 PM
| QUOTE (Kyoto Kid) | ||
...or you just have the wrong scenario for the group of players at hand. Doesn't mean you are necessarily a bad GM. I've had this happen before myself. That is why sitting down & talking with your players beforehand is a good idea. |
Eh, maybe that was a little heavy handed. Let me turn it around a little...
Agreeing on a game setting that both GM and players can enjoy is a vital part of being a good GM.
I have been burnt by (and walked out on) GMs who really should have been novelists.
Posted by: DireRadiant Jan 30 2008, 05:35 PM
| QUOTE (Lionhearted) |
| My motive is to avoid that and trying to introducing a more mature, a little more serious (IC) gameplay and thus making it a more rewarding game for everyone |
Do the players want this? Ask them.
I've run plenty of SR games that are all about mayhem only. And I've run plenty of D20 and other games that have been about characterization and story telling. The system and genre don't directly correspond to play styles, that's up to the players.
Posted by: Lionhearted Jan 30 2008, 05:38 PM
Totally agree Ed, however if you players arent aware of different type of playing, you cannot know whether they like it or not, thats why you must keep trying new things.. and personally I feel that its time for the people to get more thinking into the game (They tend to appriecate problem solving but most often get caught up in hacking and slashing they way through the world)
Posted by: Lionhearted Jan 30 2008, 05:49 PM
| QUOTE (DireRadiant) | ||
Do the players want this? Ask them. I've run plenty of SR games that are all about mayhem only. And I've run plenty of D20 and other games that have been about characterization and story telling. The system and genre don't directly correspond to play styles, that's up to the players. |
I once ran a campaign were the prime objective getting to a point and surviving the journey, there was no combat what-so-ever involved and the players had very good reactions to it, The system doesnt set the gameplay but while as SR is a skillbased setting d20 is largely focused around combat, the setting doesnt set the gameplay but it can make it easier to manage, Slaughtering an entire village in D&D.. no problem what so ever, slaughtering an entire city block in SR.. you'll get Lone Star up your ass
Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jan 30 2008, 07:22 PM
The single most important bit of gaming advice is to sit down with your players and have a long talk about what everyone wants and expects from the game. If you can't reach a consensus (or haven't bothered to) at this point, the game will likely fail, and different people are likely trying to play different games.
That said, if you're trying to steer your players into a less wild mayhem style, I have had great success with a single run in which the PCs are being hired as assistance for another more experienced team. For example, in one of them the NPC team had taken two runs close together against their better judgement, had gotten pretty beat up on the first, and needed some help on the second one. The NPC team could provide all sorts of neat equipment and abilities, but the PC team ends up doing most of the work. I had the NPC team handle most of the plan, which helped keep the PC team from going off in too zany of a direction. Parts of the plan needed to be fleshed out by the PCs, so they still had to do some planning, but the NPC team was there to reign them in if it got too wacky. So with a solid plan they did their run, with one or two minor surprises which they had to adapt to, but again the NPC team was in radio contact in case they decided the best option involved 40 grenades.
At the end of the day, all of the parts of a typical shadowrun were there, but there was another experienced team there to keep them on the right track. Yes, it's a bit railroady, but that's good in this case. After that, the training wheels can come off.
I've done this strategy twice, for two different groups, and both times it went really well. The typical reaction from the players is something like, "Oh, I see. So that's how the game is supposed to be played. Sweet!"
Also, while everyone's learning the style and the rules, don't be too quick to bring down the GM-hammer. If they start off on a wacky plan, call a time-out and talk to them about how they see this working, how they see the world, how you see the world, some likely things they might expect, etc. If they still think it's a good idea, great, but nobody wants a TPK because the GM and the players had a different view of the campaign world.
Posted by: Lionhearted Jan 30 2008, 08:42 PM
Have talked to two of my players now, one dont really seem that overly concerned about how we play, he is mostly there for the company and he is of the opinion if we gonna play we can do it seriously anyway.. He kinda liked the idea (aswell is pretty on to the SR setting) the other one just said he liked problem solving and was to tired to discuss it any further
Posted by: knasser Jan 30 2008, 09:45 PM
I have a site that has some useful stuff (I think). Most of it is geared towards newcomers to Shadowrun in one way or another.
Particular things that I think might help are as follows:
http://www.knasser.me.uk/content/shadowrun/SR_Questions.pdf: A sort of orientation guide for new players. Question 6 was written specifically with D&D'ers in mind.
http://www.knasser.me.uk/content/shadowrun/cold_blood.pdf: An introductory Shadowrun adventure. Not too hard, but with setting detail and everything spelled out in terms of what to roll.
http://www.knasser.me.uk/content/shadowrun/WWSD.png - A graphical illustration of what augmented attributes actually mean.
The NPC Rosters also contain a lot of flavour text as well as some ready-made contacts.
Hope some of this is useful.
Regards,
-Khadim.
Posted by: Lionhearted Jan 30 2008, 09:51 PM
Beautiful! thanks alot, haha wonderful animation ^^
Posted by: knasser Jan 30 2008, 09:57 PM
| QUOTE (Lionhearted) |
| Beautiful! thanks alot, haha wonderful animation ^^ |
Posted by: crash2029 Jan 31 2008, 06:58 AM
You might also look into published runs. One of my favorite modules, which I have used more than once to intro a game, was Dreamchipper. It has the introduction of personafix BTL's and a good mix of fighting, planning, and talking. Although the module is in first or second edition stats. For a good fourth ed intro you might want On the Run. It can be a bit railroady [technical term], but it does have a good bit of advice and a decent plot. Of course old-timers will recognize references to One Stage Before. But I digress.
The Point: Modules.
Posted by: Lionhearted Jan 31 2008, 05:29 PM
the recognition will be lost i think ^^^
(yea im familiar with railroading)
where can i find such modules?
Posted by: cryptoknight Jan 31 2008, 05:52 PM
| QUOTE (Lionhearted) |
| the recognition will be lost i think ^^^ (yea im familiar with railroading) where can i find such modules? |
http://www.battlecorps.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=28_187_86
http://www.rpgnow.com/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=Shadowrun&search_filter=&filters=&search_free=&search_in_description=1&search_in_author=1&search_in_artist=1
Sadly most of the older adventures are hard to find. My copy of Dreamchipper has been worn to tatters.
Posted by: Lionhearted Jan 31 2008, 06:04 PM
| QUOTE (cryptoknight) | ||
http://www.battlecorps.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=28_187_86 http://www.rpgnow.com/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=Shadowrun&search_filter=&filters=&search_free=&search_in_description=1&search_in_author=1&search_in_artist=1 Sadly most of the older adventures are hard to find. My copy of Dreamchipper has been worn to tatters. |
sigh these products would almost be worth while, if i hadnt to ship them across a sea to get them... Couple that with students low on cash, and spent most of what they got on alcohol.. (not the typical roleplayers now are we?)
Posted by: Aaron Jan 31 2008, 06:05 PM
I've also got a few adventures in "published" format that you're welcome to use. They're at my http://pavao.org/shadowrun site.
Also, one of my players keeps a http://www.digitalchangeling.com/gaming/session_notes/smark/index.html for the game I run. Feel free to pillage that for ideas.
Hope that helps.
Posted by: DireRadiant Jan 31 2008, 06:05 PM
| QUOTE (DireRadiant) |
| For good introductions that allow you to concentrate on managing the game, and not worrying so much about the story and content, try http://shadowrun4.com/missions/downloads/ . They are relatively straightforward, and usually have both the subtle and unsubtle bits. They are designed to be introductory yet fun. I recommend Happenstance for it's excellent range of options. Starts with a bar fight, but the main goal involves stealthily following and investigating an illegal cargo run. |
The http://shadowrun4.com/missions/downloads/ downloads are free.
Posted by: Lionhearted Jan 31 2008, 06:22 PM
Yes indeed, but modules arent ^^
Thanks for the stuff Aaron
Posted by: cryptoknight Jan 31 2008, 07:08 PM
| QUOTE (Lionhearted) |
| sigh these products would almost be worth while, if i hadnt to ship them across a sea to get them... Couple that with students low on cash, and spent most of what they got on alcohol.. (not the typical roleplayers now are we?) |
Well... you could always buy the PDfs... heck I haven't bought an adventure since very early 3rd ed. Back then it was pretty much book only. Nowadays I'd probably only buy the PDF.
Posted by: Earlydawn Jan 31 2008, 07:09 PM
How do Dumpshock DMs handle combat when they don't use a map, or any form of physical representation? This is one of the hardest things for me to deal with.
Posted by: Lionhearted Jan 31 2008, 07:19 PM
Either good narration.. or you make a map, Big paper, 5x5cm squares and coins/marks/whatever for the players if you dont got minatures
Posted by: the_dunner Jan 31 2008, 07:20 PM
| QUOTE (Lionhearted) |
| Yes indeed, but modules arent ^^ |
Huh? The Missions adventures (aka Modules) are free at the site that DireRadiant linked.
Posted by: Lionhearted Jan 31 2008, 07:22 PM
doh! i thought there was a difference
Posted by: Ravor Jan 31 2008, 08:54 PM
Narration coupled with a quick doodle if necessary.
Posted by: Limited Infinity Jan 31 2008, 11:34 PM
We use a small white board for combat.
Posted by: imperialus Feb 1 2008, 03:40 AM
we use a pad of graph paper with a pencil. It's more to give a general sense of range, angles, explosion radius', lines of site, ect.
Posted by: MaxHunter Feb 2 2008, 02:14 PM
Map sketch on Paper or a whiteboard depending on location. I believe a good description is by far more important than maps. But hey, we have handled 50+ people combats, more than a couple times. (yeah, one of my campaigns has a mercenary streak)
Cheers
Max
Posted by: hyzmarca Feb 3 2008, 04:42 AM
they used to fantasy roleplaying so all this focus on gear, contacts and a more subtle approach (which I know they appriecate if they just get the chance to do it)
Also, with the fantasy biasing the usual approach to an run is .. well Dungeoncrawling, beat your way to the goal, and claim the price...
We actually managed to totally wreck a rave party by getting high (IC) and calling Alamos 20k to crash it
I'd recommend using fantasy gameplay to get them used to thinking outside of the Box. Wounded Ronin came up with with a very interesting campaign idea in which the PCs are all your standard 1HD kobolds but they find their home threatened by a powerful nearby city-state what doesn't appreciate having its farms raided, forcing the PCs to think outside the box to defeat an army of mid to high level characters topple the nation that opposes them. Certainly forcing a small group of level one characters to defeat a small army of level 15-20 characters encourages them to break away from the hack n' slash routine. They know exactly that their enemies can do to them because they were on the giving end of it once. Once they're able to thing strategically then you can introduce them to the more complex game.
And that is a problem why? I really didn't see anything bad there.
That's not true in general. There exist many D&D villages that lack both a sufficient defense infrastructure to repel a band of mid to high level adventurers and and sufficient outside ties to discourage adventurers from slaughtering them. There also exist villages with trading ties to powerful kingdoms and city-states who have armies led by high-level characters and wizards who can make cows fall from the heavens on the the PCs heads and such kingdoms and city-states would not appreciate roving bands slaughtering the farmers that supply them with most of their food.
There exist many neighborhoods in Shadowrun's Seattle where the authorities will take umbrage to indiscriminate killing sprees. However, there also exist Seattle neighborhoods that if someone should successfully kill every man woman and child living in the area then there would be no real investigation of any sort and if the authorities were to identify the murderers then they'd secretly regret not being able to give the killers a medal.
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