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Posted by: Maelwys Feb 3 2008, 10:24 AM

Previous editions of Shadowrun, you needed a VCR to rig. SR4 has changed that somewhat, or has it?

As far as I can tell, the Rigging section makes no mention of having to have a Control Rig for Rigging.

The Control Rig Cyberware in no way mentions the cyberware being necessary, just that it provides bonuses.

The various archtypes (Drone Rigger, Hacker and Smuggler) all have control rigs, but it could just be that for 10k, the bonus is too much to pass up.

The Matrix Jargon on page 215 suggest that the Control Rig simply enhances the rigger's abilities, not necessarily required. On page 216 the Rigger is defined as "Often equipped with a Control Rig."

And yet, on page 341, where we find out how to adapt a vehicle to a rigger (Rigger Adaptation), we find the following phrase.

Which suggests that if you want to rig, you, well, need the rig.

Posted by: Ryu Feb 3 2008, 11:01 AM

We always played it as "you do not need a control rig"; just assume that single description is in error, based on previous editions.

Vehicle Combat Specialists will need a VCR because Gunnery is a vehicle skill. Drone Network Controlers don´t because they rarely jump into drones. As I like different ways of approaching things, mandating a VCR for everyone would be counter-productive.

Posted by: DocTaotsu Feb 3 2008, 11:44 AM

My reading is that a control rig is only necessary to jump into a drone/rigged vehicle. You can still drive (remotely or otherwise) a rigged car via an AR interface, you just don't get the extra intiative passes (and a negative to your drive pool I think.)

I think it's perfectly possible to have a person without a control rig to operate a drone net while still getting his extra passes for running hot sims. He'd just need to have a bunch of well built autosofts and pilot software running all his drones.

But to jump into a drone? Definitely need a control rig.

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Feb 3 2008, 11:50 AM

You can directly control any device in VR - this is called 'jumping in' for vehicles.

So a control rig isn't needed - it's like a smartgun now.

Posted by: Maelwys Feb 3 2008, 07:10 PM

Responses seem rather varied, from the control rig being the equivalent to a smart rig, to it being necessary only if you want to jump into the vehicle, instead of just giving it orders.

Hrrm.

Posted by: hobgoblin Feb 3 2008, 07:18 PM

after some quick page flipping i would say its pretty much optional.

but thats just me.

the way i read it there are these options:

using the old manual controls.
using manual controls with AR assist or AR remotely (+1 on former, nothing on latter)
VR (-1 treshold on vehicle tests)
VR with rig (-1 treshold and +2 dice)

Posted by: Ryu Feb 3 2008, 07:29 PM

Dead on.

Posted by: Maelwys Feb 4 2008, 08:47 PM

I think I'll simply treat them as "Optional, but you're an idiot if you don't take them in most cases."

Maybe "You only need them if you want to full VR rig," but I don't see that being a problem for a while.

Posted by: hobgoblin Feb 4 2008, 08:50 PM

hmm, i think i should maybe add a small note about my post earlier that a rigger black box seems to be needed for any kind of VR control of vehicle to take place.

Posted by: Method Feb 4 2008, 09:22 PM

To be clear on terminology, you are talking about Rigger Adaptation of the vehicle right?

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Feb 4 2008, 09:24 PM

...yeah the VCR is no where near as necessary as it once was particularly if all you want to do is drive. As others here mentioned, even Drones can be controlled without one as long as you have a Control utility programme. My Matrix Specialist has a couple Stormclouds with upgraded sensor gear, Pilot & Clearsight for aerial surveillance to basically cover the team's backs and track with. Nice innocuous drone as just about everyone else from media nets to security companies use them.

I agree that the VCR is a necessity if you want to use combat drones effectively.

Posted by: hobgoblin Feb 4 2008, 09:33 PM

oops, yes. i could have sworn my mind said rigger adaption while i typed that out...

btw, im tempted at patting kyotos avatar, but i fear it would bite my hand of...

Posted by: Maelwys Feb 5 2008, 10:35 PM

This sorta fits in here. I thought I understood that pretty much all cars are wireless at this point. That all are talking to Gridguide, or the whatever, and that pretty much anyone can use AR to drive a car, with the most simplistic AR being probably a HUD like display of speed and other vital stats.

However, Arsenal kinda seems to call this into question.

Page 142, the Rigger Adaptation, talks about installing a datajack port in the car, as well as a basic wireless signal system.

Uh...don't all vehicles already have that second thing? Not to mention basic sensors?

Was I wrong the first time, or is this an author getting a little too detailed and adding too much?

Posted by: hobgoblin Feb 5 2008, 10:46 PM

heh, i would bet on the latter option.

it smells like the fluff got a bit out of hand.

i just hope we never walk into the d&d trap. when complete arcane came out with the warlock class, people could not stop asking about a invocation that had a fluff text talking about speaking. what they wondered was if said invocation was supposed to have a extra verbal component on top of the somatic component that all invocations was supposed to have.

so add a (if it do not already have one) to the end of the "problematic" line.

Posted by: Fortune Feb 5 2008, 11:55 PM

There are probably still cars available that are over 6 years old, and would not have the required wireless doodad installed as standard. There are also those people that make their own vehicles (ie dune buggies or kit cars) that might like to add this feature. Of course, that isn't to mention those people that might want to replace their malfunctioning electronics thingamajig. Lots of reasons that I can see to include it.

Posted by: Maelwys Feb 6 2008, 01:14 AM

Yeah, really old cars was about the only thing I can think of that would need it. For newer cars it really seems like the Rigger Adaptation is just something thrown in "Just because."

I mean, presumably all new cars have wireless. The majority seem to have some sort of sensor apparatus. All have piloting ratings, which means they're capable of doing things independently.

The only thing the "Rigger Adaptation" really seems to do is "Provide a control Rig to interface with the Rigger's Black Box" which really, really doesn't seem to mean much to me, other than (I guess) "Increase the computing power/data transfered to work with VR."

Posted by: i101 Feb 6 2008, 11:49 AM

I have to admit that i am missing the Datajackport for SR4 ...

Posted by: DireRadiant Feb 6 2008, 03:16 PM

There have been quite a few discussions about this already.

In summary. Rigger Adaptation is a vehicle equipment that is required for VR "jumped In" operation on the vehicle. You can still remotely operate a vehicle in VR using wireless using the Command program and the Pilot without Rigger Adpatation.

Now the question is, do "Vehicles" in the Vehicle section of the gear section get it for free? This is not explicitly stated in the RAW. What is explicitly stated in the RAW is that vehicles in the "Drones" section do have Rigger Adaptation included as part of the cost. Or more exactly, that non passenger vehicles always have Rigger Adaptation built in.

It's also clear that Rigger Adaptation is listed as a vehicle modification separately, as if it might be needed.

The fact that one class of vehicle, and not all, is explicitly indicated to have the Rigger Adaptation for free, and that the item is listed separately tend to imply that the other class of vehicles, passenger vehicles, don't get it for free. However, it's not made explicitly clear, and most peoples assumptions are that if the technology is available, why wouldn't it be included in Passenger Vehicles?

So what it boils down to is that the choice of whether or not Passenger Vehicles have Rigger Adaptation included is up to you, and isn't explicit in the RAW.