Printable Version of Topic

Posted by: djinni Feb 8 2008, 07:04 PM

in order to not make shadowrun a game of "who kills which mage first" our group is toying with making drain force instead of half the force.
this is where I ask the opinions of the highly opinionated culture here =�

edit: I blame the genetic deformity of polydactyl on my typos...its genetic I tell you! (points to title)

Posted by: Ravor Feb 8 2008, 07:12 PM

My suggestion is to play in the world as presented in the fluff where ( Magic 3 ) is average and anyone with a higher Magic is a justifible bad-ass who garners all of the attention that such a rare person would.

Also keep track whether or not the Mage remembers to completely cover up his astral fingerprints, especially now that mundanes can take astral pictures once more.

Basically I believe that Magic is easy enough to control and balance that upping the drain simply isn't necessary and will in fact push your players to min-max their drain stats even more then they already are as well as getting Pain Editors implanted ASAP.

Posted by: Malicant Feb 8 2008, 07:18 PM

I dislike houserules like that. "I can't deal with the mage properly, so I need to screw the rules up for him". You need to read the rules and fluff to magic. You will need experience with magic to deal with it properly, so ask for ideas here how to deal with ubermages. But don't make it impossible for regular mages to cast anything beyond force 1.

btw, remember that force caps hits, not net hits on the spellcasting test. Common mistake.

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Feb 8 2008, 07:23 PM

I agree with Ravor. If you increase the drain they'll still be pulling the same shit, they'll just be doing it less often.
Remember visibility penalties. Remember wards. Remember spell signatures.

Posted by: Slymoon Feb 8 2008, 07:32 PM

I just got to the magic section in SR4. (reading word for word sicne SR3 is so engrained) To clarify what I read was:

Force 5 spell can only have 5 hits. *prior* to resists correct? So the max the spell can do is 2x force on a 100% unresisted attack.

Also, regarding combat spells: all the resister has to do is match the casters hits? ie: If iI have 3 hits to cast a powerbolt and the target has 3 hits the spell fails, but I still have to drain.

Where as a physical manipulation must be resisted and soaked all the way down. Hits + base damage.

?


ps:
note to add the OP, The only time I ever did such a thing with drain for mages was if the scenario warranted it. ala: higher or lower magic level in the world. 'Course those were specific campaigns for Astral quests that immitated the changes.

I concur with the other posts, remember your modifiers. Was true in SR3 and looks to be true in SR4 as well.

Posted by: Ravor Feb 8 2008, 07:35 PM

Yeah, direct spells are all-or-nothing, one of the reasons that indirect spells should be an honored part of every Mage's arsenal.

Well that plus the ability to make called shots, hit people you can't actually see, ect...

Posted by: Malicant Feb 8 2008, 07:38 PM

Yup.


Yup, again. To cast a spell you need at least one net hit, so in your example the spell goes down the gutter and the mage has to suck the drain.


Are you talking about indirect combat spell like Fireball? If so, they are handled like ranged attacks, so you dodge and soak.

Posted by: DTFarstar Feb 8 2008, 07:42 PM

Also, and I can't stress this enough because my GM doesn't do it so he basically had everyone be an uber-badass magic resistor. The last like.... 5 spells I have cast at anyone but complete and utter mooks has been resisted completely by them having over 7 hits on defense. So, either he is using edge on every spell defense roll and roll well or everyone has Magic Resistance now, so my character is a shitty gunner and heal-bot. Anyway, I digress use perception penalties! If your Sam suffers it to his shots, your mage suffers it to his casting dice pool when targeting someone.



You realize if DV is equal to Force +x then almost all spells would have the mage resisting more damage than his target and affecting anything but humans would be insanely dangerous because of needing to beat the Object Threshold before hits start counting for anything right? So to affect say a gun with powerbolt you would need either 3 or 4 hits dependent upon the gun before your hits could even begin to count towards damage or anything and anything less than 3 or 4 hits would have you soaking say 6S Drain, P if your magic is less than 5. Assuming you do want enough hits to affect it at all which would be minimum 4 or 5 depending on gun type. Hell, at that point, they basically just shot you for free. Not to mention to average the hits needed your dice pool needs to be between 12 and 15 which is a HUGE karma expenditure.


Chris

Posted by: Slymoon Feb 8 2008, 07:52 PM

yeah I think thats what they are called in SR4.

SR3 was Physical Manipulations: ala spells that bring forth a real effect like fire, water, ice, electricity and so on.

Posted by: Malicant Feb 8 2008, 07:52 PM

Another helpless victim of 'I'm not familiar with magic so I houserule it after thinking about it for 0.0142 sec.'. My condolences.

Posted by: DTFarstar Feb 8 2008, 07:59 PM

Luckily, I'm a possession tradition mage with mostly support spells, but it is getting to the point where I don't use any of my non-support spells at all anymore because all I do is soak drain.

Chris

Posted by: djinni Feb 8 2008, 09:02 PM

sorry redjack, didn't mean to make you do extra work.

yes except its a force 10 spells he casts all the time and only resists 4dv of drain in addition to having a spirit help with it he at most has only suffered one box of drain (physical). and stopped the fight with one spell. so again it becomes geek the mage, each side has a mage whoever kills the mage wins. so as stated before its not that magic is "overpowering" or cannot be handled... it is that the game is not shadowrun, it is "geek the mage."
use vision modifiers...um...okay...wait oh yeah I forgot there aren't any, or are negligable.
Drones are taken care of by the rest of the team, or hacked to be friendly (if the hacker is not in cybercombat with their hacker)
certain situations can be brought up to nullify the advantages magic has however if those become commonplace it will no longer be fun for the players to always meet the same opposition.



ah if only it were that I would rejoice with grateful abandon

Posted by: Malicant Feb 8 2008, 09:09 PM

Force 10 with DV of 4? Now, that seems rather... iffy. Also, spirit helping him every time? That's a lot of money down the gutter. Unless he 'forgets' to bind them and lets them assist him anyway.

I smell the carcasses of broken rules.

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Feb 8 2008, 09:19 PM

Sounds like the infamous stunbolt. So he takes out one guy with a complex action. Can't your street sam manage to take out one guy per pass, too? Also Malicant has a good point about Aid Sorcery. Is he actually binding all those spirits?

Posted by: Malicant Feb 8 2008, 09:22 PM

Ah yes, Stunbolt. But that's really just one guy. Any Semi-Serious Sam can top that without risking to fry himself. Still, carcasses, smell. Something seems not quite right.

Posted by: djinni Feb 8 2008, 09:30 PM

that would be stunball, edit: I misquoted his drain, sorry its a 6DV drain, [still much less then an elemental attack]

yes he's binding them, he saves them for teh overcast or the higher drain spells that he needs assistance in the drain. one spirit pretty much lasts for one run.

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Feb 8 2008, 09:32 PM

Nuh-uh.

edit: in an effort to be useful: I'm pretty sure stunbolt is -1, and stunball is +1, so he should be looking at 6DV drain for a stunball, not 4DV.

Posted by: Malicant Feb 8 2008, 09:33 PM

Not in my book, it isn't.

I found the carcass, now it's time to dispose of it. Stunball is +1 drain. Tell your mage player to RTFM. And your GM too.
Which totally proves my point of 'I'm don't know what is happening, quick, a houserule is needed'.

BTW, there seems still to be a corpse in the spirit aid closet. Check that, too. meh, your edit screwd this one.

Still he must be one lucky bastard. To get rid of 6P Drain you need somewhere around 20 dice. If I had such a pool, I would crit-glitch my character into oblivion.

But if he binds the spirits just to overcast... dude, you can totally screw him. Spirits start to use edge to resist his summons/bindigs for starters. That will be a serious money sink. More than it is now.

Posted by: djinni Feb 8 2008, 09:39 PM

yeah you caught me before I finished editing its that genetic mistyping stuff again

as I don't micro manage his finances it may be possible he's not charging himself enough but then its not a matter of not following the rules...a cheating player thread would be a whole different bag.

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Feb 8 2008, 09:40 PM

So then which spell are you having problems with? Stunbolt, right? Or is it stunball, in which case he should be taking more drain, and without the benefits of Aid Sorcery unless he's paying those binding costs.

Posted by: Malicant Feb 8 2008, 09:47 PM

If players start to think they can screw you with the rules, screw them back without houseruling. Enemy mage doing a Force 10 Mana/Energy/Stunball. Best thing, you don't need to worry about binding costs and final drain.

Posted by: Ravor Feb 8 2008, 09:57 PM

Woah, hang on a moment, are the corps in your world run by retarded children? There are PLENTLY of Vision Modifiers that any smart corp can pile on, especially if the Mage doesn't have cybereyes (And Force 10 smells like the Mage saved a couple of Build Points and soft-capped Magic.). Also the sec-guards shouldn't be gathered together with a big "Too stupid to die." sign hanging over their heads.

Also how is this magical badass staying off the mystical radar while dropping his tac-nukes right and left? How does he manage to have the time to clean up his Astral Fingerprint everytime?

Posted by: Malicant Feb 8 2008, 09:59 PM

He asks his other spirits to do so?

Posted by: Mr. Unpronounceable Feb 8 2008, 09:59 PM

and correct me if I'm wrong...but I can't seem to find any reference to a spirit helping his summoner resist drain with the lone exception of ally spirits.

So this guy already has an ally spirit, or is he breaking the rules in yet another way?

Posted by: Dashifen Feb 8 2008, 10:09 PM

You're not wrong. There's no way for a spirit, bound or otherwise, to assist the drain resistance test unless it's an ally. In fact, that's one of the things that makes Allies so damned cool!! If you're letting a non-Ally do this, djinni, you're doing a great disservice to the balance of the game.

Posted by: djinni Feb 8 2008, 10:13 PM

he's holding dice back from casting in order to assist with drain and making up for the lack of casting dice with spirit assist.
no Ravor he hard capped his magic and then took cyber...lots of cyber (only one point of essence though)
and started with raw materials for binding spirits.
and focuses...
as far as I know on paper the character is legit however with the question of how expensive it would be for the spirits I will be checking in on how much he's charging for the spirits. however after thought I think its probably also legit, or just marginally on the edge.

Posted by: Dashifen Feb 8 2008, 10:16 PM

I don't think that's allowed in SR4. You don't get to hold off dice on spellcasting to resist drain any more.

Posted by: Ravor Feb 8 2008, 10:18 PM

I'm not entirely convinced that Spirits can erase Astral Fingerprints, but I think I'd allow it at a cost of a Service per spell, still thats going to get real pricey real fast.

Posted by: Mr. Unpronounceable Feb 8 2008, 10:19 PM

holding back dice...

um, no - that's an sr3 and earlier rule.

The only thing you can hold back dice for in SR4 is reducing AOE.

Posted by: Dashifen Feb 8 2008, 10:20 PM

There's no rules for it, but I'd probably let an Ally do it since they're more in tune with their summoner than the average spirit. Maybe a bound spirit, but then only of the appropriate type for each spell category, obviously.

Posted by: Ravor Feb 8 2008, 10:23 PM

Remember that ( Magic 6 ) is the same as ( Magic 9 ) was in Third Edition, so you are dealing with one of the most badassed magical mofos in the sprawl, what steps is he taking to stay under the mystical radar?

Posted by: Slymoon Feb 8 2008, 10:24 PM

To add my 2 the holding dice to add to drain is definately an SR1-3 rule. Back with a true combat pool. ala: bucket o'dice to add to which test you want. (in this case casting or draining)

Thats one of the hurdles I am having to get over right now as I read.

Posted by: Malicant Feb 8 2008, 10:32 PM

Been there, done that. You'll get used to the new system and you will often try to apply SR3 mechanics that are deader than Abe Lincolns beard.

Posted by: djinni Feb 8 2008, 11:18 PM

we've taken to mean that "you are allowed to withold dice for drain test."

if you can throw out a page hinting that spirits can't do that then it would be great.

even if drain was bad he could have a spirit of man cast out things like ball lighting, force 5 of that and no drain cuz he's a spirit (unless I missed something)

Posted by: jago668 Feb 8 2008, 11:21 PM

Well you can also use spellcasting foci dice to resist drain. Not the same as the skill dice, but they can add either way. I can see letting actual skill dice be held back for the same purpose. It would be a houserule, but it makes sense.

Posted by: Malicant Feb 8 2008, 11:22 PM

They suffer drain normally. That's another SR3 archaic.

Posted by: cryptoknight Feb 8 2008, 11:24 PM

Page 179 under aid sorcery it lists services... On page 178 it says this about aid sorcery


There isn't an Aid drain, and the Spellcasting test comes before the drain resist test.

Posted by: Particle_Beam Feb 8 2008, 11:24 PM

Spirits suffer drain as well. No, you can't withhold dices for drain tests. After all, your drain test always consists of willpower + the second mental attribute important to your tradition, whereas spellcasting and summoning always work with the same rules (magic + sorcery/spellcasting or summoning/binding/etc.), regardless of tradition.

Forget anything what you learned in SR 3rd edition, and reread the rules for 4th edition.

Posted by: Mr. Unpronounceable Feb 8 2008, 11:40 PM

You took an explicit "cannot" as "can"?

neat trick

Posted by: Malicant Feb 8 2008, 11:41 PM

That's what I call art.

Posted by: Jackstand Feb 8 2008, 11:49 PM

I think what he meant is that because it says that you can't use those dice that you withhold for changing area towards resisting drain, that you are allowed to withhold dice otherwise for the purpose of resisting drain.

Posted by: Mr. Unpronounceable Feb 8 2008, 11:54 PM

but...but...

that's the only reference to withholding dice in the entire book!

You can lose dice, gain dice, split dice, and in a whole 1 instance (reducing AOE) withhold dice.


Gah! it's like when a SR1->SR2 legacy shaman (that I used to play with) discovered he couldn't use his spell pool to summon spirits in SR3. Not that he was ever supposed to have that ability.

Posted by: djinni Feb 9 2008, 12:05 AM

the explicit cannot says that you cannot withold dice to do "A" and in addition to that do "B"
he is not witholding dice for a purpose...and using them for a different purpose.
he is witholding dice for a purpose...and using them for that purpose.

Crypto I meant the removing astral signatures not the drain bit...as he is not using spirits to aide in the drain

Posted by: Dashifen Feb 9 2008, 12:09 AM

Right but there's no rules to allow what he's doing. You've instituted a house rule -- albeit a rule that existed in previous editions -- with respect to withholding dice on a Spellcasting test and then applying those dice to a Drain Resistance test. The only purpose for withheld dice on a Spellcasting Test is to control the radius of an area effect spell. Anything else is house rule.

As for using spirits to resist drain, I call your attention to the fact pointed out above that such a service does not appear in SR4 under spirit services, nor does it appear with respect to bound spirit services. The only place that an assist by a spirit with respect to drain is mentioned is in Street Magic on page 105 under Ally Spirit Abilities:

Posted by: djinni Feb 9 2008, 12:25 AM

we have taken the description, while not a rule observed by others here does not mean it is not a rule, as there are other items mentioned and not described.

again...he's NOT using spirits to resist drain.

Posted by: Malicant Feb 9 2008, 12:41 AM

This whole "there is no withholding for drain" business seems to be really hard to understand. The rules say you can withold dice to de-/increase AoE. That's it. Now, how do you jump to the conclusion, dice can be witheld for anything else?

Seriously, you have a problem with the mage resisting drain way to easily, we tell you he is doing it wrong, that's the root of your friggin problem and you retreat to denial.

Meh. It's getting late, I guess.

Posted by: FriendoftheDork Feb 9 2008, 12:42 AM

Well, since it seems you've already decided magic is broken, perhaps you can interpret the rules a tad less in the mages favor? By RAW you cannot withhold dice for drain (except from foci), since the rules doesen't say you can. Actually that's too late already.

Oh and by all means increase drain on stunspells, way too high drain compared to other spells.

Magic IS powerful, but in my game the mage was routinely damaged from drain and combat and used to pile up penalties when doing anything, which meant he had a few hard times summoning and spellcasting. For instance, binding spirits is very difficult if they are high force, and if you're a bit unlucky you risk chugging on 6-20 drain (force 5 spirit) and quite possibly fail the binding.

Area affect spells still beats every other form of attack in the game against multiple opponents, but when fighting a single tough guy or scattered enemies the Sammie's 19 dice in a chosen firearms kills as easily if not more than the mage, and can do so many times a round.

Posted by: Ravor Feb 9 2008, 12:55 AM

Actually if I remember correctly Withholding Sorcery Dice for Drain is listed as an offical houserule in Street Magic, but even if it isn't it's not a rule in Fourth Edition unless you houserule it.

As for Spirits erasing Astral Fingerprints, show me where it says they can.

Posted by: djinni Feb 9 2008, 01:03 AM

its general consensus from teh group not me personally, although he's most likely not with holding much more than 3 dice anyway
even if he doesn't withhold dice from spellcasting that just means he's getting guaranteed 9 hits. (force 9 for the 5DV drain)
Charisma 7, Willpower 6, Focused concentration +2, Festish +2, Focus +3, that's 20 dice for drain test...

as for the "show where it says they can" argument you have the naysayers asking "show me where is says tehy can't." I jsut ride the fence.

Posted by: Ravor Feb 9 2008, 01:14 AM

You know, I'm continuely amazed by the fact that if people would only admit that high dicepools breaks Fourth Edition and play at lower levels most of these headache posts would be moot, if you are playing with people who are world class best-of-the-best then of course they are going to be able to pull off hair-raising stunts.

Of course, I'd like to know exactly what cyber/ability this "uber Mage" is using to bypass the Vision Modifiers that any target worth hitting would be able to pile on fairly easily.

Posted by: Particle_Beam Feb 9 2008, 01:28 AM

Man, with such high states, no wonder he's that good.

Posted by: Whipstitch Feb 9 2008, 01:56 AM

I just wish you'd stop using the term "broken," Ravor, that's all. One GM's "broken" is another GM's "Hrm, I'm going to have to have the Johnson offer to pay these guys a lot... and then kill them with cyberninja counterspelling mystad drop bear ninjas on K-10." And no, I don't mean that with any irony, either. Having 17 dice in Bad Assery means that oddly enough, you're likely going to be able to do something bad ass, because your character apparently performs at beyond peak human abilities. The problem here is less with SR4 and more with GMs not taking the appropriate measures to realize that superhuman characters are best handled by ramming them with Citymasters and making sure that even the mooks toss a good dozen dice or so after appropriate modifiers in their appropriate skills. When your group is big enough that everyone is capable of specializing in their particular shtick it is becomes very appropriate to send them on the kind of high risk job that would actually offer a big enough payout to accomodate 4 or 5 people taking the run.

Posted by: jago668 Feb 9 2008, 01:57 AM

Well with optical vision magnification, vision enhancement (3), low light, thermographic, ultrasound, and flare comps in a pair of goggles or contact lenses you are taking care of a good chunk of vision. Which isn't happening at chargen, but easy enough to do after a run or two. Putting most visibility based modifiers in a 0 to -3 range. The main thing that will hit a mage is the other penalties. Target in good cover (-4), and then either attacker in cover (-1), or attacker moving (-2).

So best case is no modifier, worst case is full darkness (-6), target in good cover (-4), and attacker moving (-2). Total is -12, that is a pretty big hit, completely negating a "normal" dicepool. Now add in the vision aid above (3), power focus (2), spellcasting focus (3), and optional aid sorcery (+1 to +6 depending). So you can very expensively negate 8 points, and even end up with a +2 modifier. Then if you take a mentor spirit it is possible to end up with another +2, for a -2 to +4 modifier. It all just depends on the specific magician and what they have available to them.

Posted by: Whipstitch Feb 9 2008, 02:02 AM

While it does have a limited optimum range, it's also quite easy for an elf mage or any other meta with natural low light vision to simply take Vision Enhancement 3 and Eye Light retinal mods in order to have pretty decent vision.

Posted by: Whipstitch Feb 9 2008, 02:02 AM

...

My connection and the double posts are getting out of hand.

Posted by: Ravor Feb 9 2008, 02:05 AM

That's just it though, I consider Fourth Edition to be broken when it ventures into anime turf as it does in high dicepool games, and not only ruleswise, but also in terms of how the setting is presented through fluff.

Although I supposed I could say that Fourth Edition is Anikened at that point, but then people would have even less of a chance to understand my random ramblings and rants.

Posted by: Mr. Unpronounceable Feb 9 2008, 02:07 AM

note that some of these goggle additions (as noted above) can't be used while spellcasting. Low light and thermo work if natural, bioware, or cyberware, but ultrasound NEVER works to target spells.

Posted by: Whipstitch Feb 9 2008, 02:10 AM

See, I'd agree with you there if it weren't for all the anime level crap I've seen IEs, GDs, SR novel protagonists, Elvis worshipping vampires, and Otaku pull off in SR over the years. "This doesn't match my vision" ≠ broken.

Posted by: jago668 Feb 9 2008, 02:16 AM

Okay if ultrasound doesn't work, still leaves -3 as the highest you can get on a visibility modifier. Now where did I miss the low-light/thermo stuff only working as cyber? I just want to go read it, since I missed it somewhere evidently.

Posted by: Fortune Feb 9 2008, 02:20 AM

As I mentioned in another thread (but hey, redundancy is fun, and it's applicable here as well), there are those that feel external (ie non-implanted) eyeware blocks Astral Perception, as glass is opaque on the Astral.

Posted by: Ravor Feb 9 2008, 02:21 AM

Sure, but one of Fourth Edition's focus is supposedly to return to the street and to back away from all of the anime garbage that existed in previous editions. Now whether or not it has suceeded is another matter entirely.

However, something that I feel is important to note is that you simply don't seem to see threads complaining about this or that aspect of Shadowrun being broken in low dicepool games, and that by itself either says that no-one is playing such games or that the rules tend to work better at lower levels.

Now please note that by lower levels I'm not talking about lowering the Build Point caps, or even playing "street gangers" just keeping the overall dicepools in the campaign lower.

Posted by: Dashifen Feb 9 2008, 02:21 AM

Vision enhancements in goggles, contacts, and the like all replace the mage's norm vision without being paid for in Essence. Thus, they cannot provide LOS for magic.

Posted by: jago668 Feb 9 2008, 02:22 AM

Eh that isn't so bad as long as they are not contact lenses. Very easy to push some glasses or goggle up off your eyes before you go to perceive astrally. Contact lenses, not so much.

EDIT (for Dashifen)

Ah, thank you. I just rolled right by that. So cybereyes it is. Well the vision magnification can be something else, but not like it is hard to fit into cybereyes anyways. So all the modifiers stay the same, you just have to pay for it with magic (aka essence).

So that means I need to rework my shaman.

Posted by: Dashifen Feb 9 2008, 02:23 AM

True, but then you loose any benefit of the vision enhancements. No low-light, no thermo, no magnification, etc. That could quickly increase the visibility modifiers that are faced by the mage.

Posted by: Malicant Feb 9 2008, 02:31 AM

You don't watch many animes, do you? Also, it's most amusing that the anime argument is also used to attack D&D 4th.

Posted by: djinni Feb 9 2008, 04:08 AM

well, since goggles, contacts, and glasses are not mentioned...and in addition to that they do not "substitute themselves for the character’s own visual senses" they can still be used.

Posted by: Ravor Feb 9 2008, 06:01 AM

Malicant

*Shrugs* I watch enough animes to understand that over-the-top hair raising stunts are par for the course. Can't speak for D&D 4.0, although over-the-top hair raising stunts is something that I embrace in High Fantasy so that isn't necessarily a problem in that genre.


djinni

Excuse me? Are you arguing that a Mage can use non-Essence vision enhancers for Magical LOS or just that a Mage can see through the glasses and use his normal vision for Magical LOS?

Posted by: nathanross Feb 9 2008, 07:02 AM

AH, I wish I had joined this thread earlier, but Ill just have to work harder to catch up.

First off, I think the main issue has been gotten away from. Malicant mentioned it, but I dont feel as though it has been driven home enough: The problem is not with the rules (completely), but with both the GM's and the player's understanding of the rules. DONT let the players lead you around by the nose because you arent familiar with the rules. It is the GM's responsibility to understand the rules and interpret how those rules affect the world they create.

My previous GM feels seriously jaded about magic and wouldnt let us play possession traditions purely because one player took advantage of his ignorance and ransacked his game world. Now that may be an abnormal case, as said player was a total power gamer and did not enjoy the game unless he was in COMPLETE control of the GM and all the other players, but this CAN happen to you! So be vigilant and know the rules.

Second, if you are having issues with Stunball, you are not the only one. I think everyone can acknowledge that Stunball is the most effective combat spell in the game. Not only can you safely cast it at a higher force than Manaball or Powerball, but it is Direct as the Mana/Power, and is tallied on the Stun damage track, which is usually smaller by a box or two (many more in the case of Trolls and Orks). Im pretty sure Serbitar just plain raised it to the point of Powerball, which is not a bad move. To increase ALL drain codes by Force/2 just to prevent one spell from being abused would just be absurd.

Third, Elves, Dwarves, and Focused concentration. +Spellcasting dice is out, +Drain dice is in. Any intelligent person that reads the casting/summoning rules for fourth edition cannot help but realize how important drain dice are. While drain has always been important (I remember a dwarven mage with pumped willpower spending his entire pool on the drain test casting a Deadly Stunball and still passing out completely), it is now within our power to reliably resist ALL of it.

I also have a friend playing a 14 drain dice elf Black Magician that reliably resists Force 10 Stunballs. He does not always get 6 successes, but he usually only needs to cast that high twice on a run (A force ten stunball is usually enough to take car of a squad of anything really). Now this is a starting character, and while most characters (present company aside) will not be so properly min-maxed, this much resistance to drain at startup is almost scary. This is also before he has initiated, learned centering, taken a Fetish, or any of the other ways to maximize drain DP.

While I think having all these dice makes playing a mage much more fun, more responsibility rests on the GM to challenge this character without fucking the entire team, and without being unfair. If the character is really sticking his/her nose out, its your responsibility to cut it off. Dont metagame or intentionally try to kill the character, that is not how to deal with it. You need to come up with realistic backlashes to the blatant use of power.

If the character is really that powerful, more and more people will be interested in who he/she is. If they cant deal with him, its going to get passed up the line until someone with True Power comes a knocking. Dont underestimate the powers that be. They have taken a long time to get there and they dont like being pushed around by some upstart. Of course, this backlash should not be instantaneous. If you start having GD's knocking on the door, without first giving some kind of hint that the character is stepping on the wrong toes, you will just have player rebellion. You should always give the players a chance, even if you dont think they deserve it.

Posted by: FriendoftheDork Feb 9 2008, 11:10 AM

Ouch this guy is either a munchkin or a VERY experienced character. No wonder you're having problems. Although, at this power level the rest of the party should have an equivalent dice pool for their fields of expertise, and let's face it Ares Alpha can perform rather well, especially when you start lobbing grenades as well.

The mage in out group had only half that amount of dice, which made the game alot more balanced. Sure he did fire off a force 10 stunball once taking out an enemy mage and 2 spirits in one go, but that left him with alot of physical drain that almost killed him when he walked into a booby trap later in the session.

Still I advise you to change the ruling. Is it the general consensus that the mage should handle all combat single-handedly while the other players are fiddling their thumbs? If not, make them agree that "if it's not forbidden it's allowed" doesen't apply to all game rules. I mean, nothing in the rules say you CAN'T use the stunball spell to summon a nuclear bomb and wipe out Seattle, does it? Ok extreme example but really RPG rules cannot be as exhaustive as the LAW, where they have to make laws for every possible situation. 3 dice might not seem alot compared to 20, but every drop counts. That's one less damage he can "auto-soak." BTW Are you aware of how many BPs are required to get those stats at character creation?

Posted by: djinni Feb 9 2008, 02:14 PM

well considering the term munchkin is defining roleplay style and not the rules on a character sheet, I think you mean power gamer, and no he's not.

163

Ah it feel SO much better to not have to read everything off a PDA, and look no typos either!

Posted by: djinni Feb 9 2008, 02:15 PM

OH no its CONTAGIOUS!!!

Posted by: Ryu Feb 9 2008, 02:30 PM

The responsibility is on the GM that approves to run a game for such a character. Note that a magic rating of 3 works in most cases, your player does not NEED more. A magic rating of 4 is good, beyond that you have to work if you want to challenge the mage. I have run a game for a magic 6 semi-toxic avenger mage, and from that experience I´ll say that the problem areas are high-force bound spirits and mana-based combat spells. The first can be limited by using edge to resist binding, the second was solved by *gasp* talking about it (The player took Acid Wave instead, the char was tuned enough to pull it off).

Posted by: Malicant Feb 9 2008, 03:09 PM

Obviously only the over-the-top hair raising stunt animes. Anime is not a genre. Superheroism is. It would be more fitting to compare that over-the-top stuff with american super hero comics, but hey, whatever suits you best, right?

Seriously, I watch tons of anime and everytime someone compares over-the-top stuff with anime I'm like "Huh? Oh... right, Dragonball. Friggin' 80s style "

This is so off-topic... I will stop this now.

Posted by: Ravor Feb 9 2008, 04:49 PM

I don't watch Dragonball, I was referring more to anime like Ghost in the Shell, Blood Plus, Bleach, and the like.

Posted by: Malicant Feb 9 2008, 05:03 PM

That's funny, since Blood+ and Bleach is Dragonball all over again (basically) and GitS is not very over the top.

Damn, I wanted to stop this... my agrue feever is just to strong.

Posted by: Ravor Feb 9 2008, 05:05 PM

Ghost in the Shell is tamer then the rest of my list sure, but it is still over-the-top for the Sixth World.

Posted by: Fuchs Feb 9 2008, 05:18 PM

I consider GitS as not over the top in SR - it's what I imagine the very best, governement/copr sponsored black ops teams would be like.

Most of the really "over the top" stunts I could see as the results of heavy use of edge anyway.

Posted by: Malicant Feb 9 2008, 05:29 PM

No kidding. It is not the sixth world. Inside of it, it works good, because the over-the-top stuff is big, expensive guns and really heavy cybermods. Not 15yr old kids discovering some heritage and running into stronger and stronger opponents. It's even less over the top then SR.

The comparison lags

Posted by: Hank Feb 9 2008, 06:22 PM

djinni, I think re-jiggering the drain is a great idea. Drain based on Force rather than Force by 2 seems like a good fix...I have other house-rules that I've considered which get the same effect.

-Overcasting causes unresistable drain equal to (Force - Magic).
-Overcasting causes physical AND stun damage.
-Pay drain before casting your spell. (Makes sense...if you can't pay the piper, why would you get the spell?)
-Remove one spell--Increase Reflexes.

I don't think that last house rule is very effective with extra IP's from edge and drugs, nevermind the fact that many mages would choose a bit of bioware anyway. Or you could throw in a damage resistance test for direct spells.

Your player is definately a powerful mage, but, come on. He's got a Magic of 6...he's not a 6th grade initiate or anything. He should have to take at least some drain to rip off a force 10 spell; I don't care if he's casting fireball or makeover, force 10 should be painful. Even with edge.

Posted by: Slymoon Feb 9 2008, 07:23 PM

wow. got the hate on for casters don'tcha.

as far as drain before casting. I dont know about SR4 (yet) but in SR3 if you went unconcious because of drain, the spell didnt happen.

Posted by: Ravor Feb 9 2008, 07:24 PM

Ok, the Bleach reference I got, but if you are going to claim that Ghost in the Shell is less over-the-top then Shadowrun then kindly explain your reasoning. I'm not quite sure where the entire "Ghost in the Shell works within it's universe because it's not set in the Sixth World" came from though.

Posted by: Whipstitch Feb 9 2008, 08:38 PM

Fixed.

Posted by: nathanross Feb 9 2008, 08:49 PM

Yeah, Hank, Im not sure if youve played an SR3 mage or whatnot, but drain seriously sucked balls. If you make it to the end of the run consciously, youre a total pimp. Of course, by SR3 rules, all spells are force 5 no matter what (since in SR3 you had to get successes based on a TN equal to force).

I think casting is SOOOOO much more enjoyable right now, and instead of just arbitrarily pumping ALL drain, you should look at either specific spells that are too cheap, or specific players who are just plain shaking the boat. You should not penalize out of game a character that used his Karma within the rules in the way he wanted to, that is not fair. Like I said before, you have to find acceptable in game ways to balance him.

Posted by: Ravor Feb 9 2008, 08:51 PM

I don't know, the idea of paying for Drain before the spell goes off isn't really game-breaking, but I don't like it from a thematic point because I like the idea that a Mage is able to kill herself to go out with a really big bang.

Posted by: Whipstitch Feb 9 2008, 08:57 PM

Yeah, that's about the only idea I'm cool with, but I don't necessarily like it; the potential interactions with the Dead Man's Trigger are quite messy.

Posted by: djinni Feb 9 2008, 09:31 PM

the minimum drain of force-magic seems to be something to try...might curb the overcasting issue however. mystic adepts are unaffected. or minimally affected.

aside from that if the problem is not magic in general, (which is what I think anyway) what is to be done to correct the blastification being done? I'm thinking of altering the drain level for the stun spells to be in line with the powerbolt spells, or increase combat spells in general? leaving it alone is not going to curb the issue and what toes would he be stepping on? even if they find an astral signature how are they going to find him? as soon as he initiates masking is going to make it next to impossible anyway.
even if he doesn't over cast he could have a couple spirits of man cast a few spells instead (when mentioned as a "no drain because they are spirits" before I meant no drain for him, because the spirits are casting it not him)

Posted by: Ravor Feb 9 2008, 09:52 PM

How much are you paying per run? Remember that burning through bound Spirits is really expensive and if he starts abusing spirits by throwing them into the meatgrinder like that then it's perfectly reasonable for them to start burning Edge on the summoning/binding tests.

Also the masking Metamagic wouldn't actually help him as it only affects his aura, not his Signature, Flexible Signature only makes it harder to see the real thing, so if he is setting off magical tac-nukes right and left sooner or later someone is going to ritually track him either to put him down or more likely to leash him.

Posted by: djinni Feb 9 2008, 10:08 PM

its stunball no one gets hurt, no property gets damaged, the only thing you see is the astral signature(3 hits), most of the time they are not going to know what it was that created it (5 hits).
okay so a spell was cast, nothing is damage and they didn't kill anyone, this drops to low priority we have murderers to find...
but yeah agreed if the team cuts a bloody swath someone is gonna find them and soon.

Posted by: Malicant Feb 9 2008, 10:14 PM

If he's a runner and has stolen stuff on a run, while tac-nuking the guards, that might warrant a higher priority than "we have murders to find". Especially since corp sec gives a rat's ass about murderers.

I wonder why are you defending him? Did this thread not start to cripple him in the first place? Or don't you want to punish his character in-game?

Posted by: djinni Feb 9 2008, 10:29 PM

I don't want to punish the character, I want to reign in the "geek the mage" mentality of the game.
as it stands the only way I see to challenge teh characters in combat is to provide magical support for the opposition. once that is gone, poof game over...
the team is challenged in other ways, but as long as they protect the mage they win, and if they don't well...its game over.
yeah they've stolen stuff but from competing companies and when does the "manhunt" become too costly? if they steal a multi million dollar prototype heck yeah! but if the company doesn't even know what was stolen...they might think the run went bad. they also aren't going to vehemently pursue anyone who doesn't kill their slav- er I mean employees.
any action they take outside their territory is illegal and could garner them much more lost revenue than one runner.

right now Ravor they are pulling in enough to maintain medium lifestyle and still save up for cyber.
they don't loot the corpses, they don't mistreat anyone who surrenders, and try to use non lethal force when possible (well...this group does there's a different group that I'm gonna post a new thread about later)
monetary value I think I pull in 5-10k extra including pay data.

Posted by: Malicant Feb 9 2008, 10:34 PM

What kind of StufferShack does not know what has been stolen? And why would anyone send tac nuking mage into such a low-sec company in the first place?

I know that's not going to help, but I had to ask

Posted by: djinni Feb 9 2008, 10:40 PM

editing the security logs to delete any trace of the information in question.
hitting a transporation detail (other runner team) before they got to drop off their package and or analyze whatever it was they were hired to extract (cyberzombie).
stealing doesn't have to be a physical item.

Posted by: Malicant Feb 9 2008, 10:54 PM

wowowowowow... They steal a cyberzombie and no heats comes down on them? No body notices? A guy drops magical tac-nukes without much effect on him, the logs claim nothing is missing and the people just shrug and go on with their lifes? I don't think so.

The only time in SR I know of the logs were so clean no one discovered tempering was when the logs themself were the ones doing the tempering (that was Emergence btw).

But whatever, not my game and all. You want them stealing Cyberzombies out of low-sec-no-one-cares facilities, go ahead. You don't seem to be big on in-game consequences. Some games just are like that. But kicking the overcasting-uber-mage in the groin with more drain is not going to solve the problem in the long run.

Posted by: hyzmarca Feb 9 2008, 10:56 PM

One of my favorites is restorin gthe old flavor of armored vehicles being impossible to kill with magic by having half their armor apply against the mage as dice pool modifiers.

Posted by: djinni Feb 9 2008, 11:04 PM

you missed the "transporation detail" and the "other runner team" did ya? no worries here I'll specify. all the heat came down on the original team, not them. they were hired by the guys who owned him, to get him back. it was a do it fast do it now. cyber zombie is 0.1 essence away from a street sam, I don't know why everyone is so impressed with them.
unless you pull a GM fiat, if they perform the appropriate command, and maybe even have a sprite to help, the logs are clean. especially if they steal an authenticated user, and hack it with his access.

Posted by: jago668 Feb 9 2008, 11:07 PM

I think what they are refering to is that you generally have to not just edit out what you did, but put back in some fabricated stuff so there are no gaps. That is moderately difficult to get right.

Posted by: Ravor Feb 9 2008, 11:09 PM

It doesn't matter if they get enough hits to tell what spell was cast, all they have to do in order to tell if a uber Mage worthy of tracking down was there is determine what Force was being used, which is realitively easy, all you have to do is keep checking on the sig and note when it disappears and then compare that to when your guard's biomontors recorded all of them getting their asses handed to them.

*Edit*

Also note that if you are playing Fourth Edition at anime levels of power, then you are naturally going to get anime style headaches to go with it.

Posted by: djinni Feb 9 2008, 11:10 PM

is a hacking+edit test, one test for both actions right?

Posted by: DTFarstar Feb 9 2008, 11:14 PM

See since I think probably 30% of the mages in the world would work in security, and of those 1 man can ward a LOT of buildings, and keep spirits leashed to go and magically support an area when an alarm goes off, 1 mage can "protect" 3-5 low to middle security areas. With those percentages, you are going to see a ward on every important building and vehicle, most transports that have anything worth a damn protecting them are going to have a spirit running protection and interference and all HTR teams and high sec facilities actually have at least one mage on site. If you want to quote the population statistics, well, try and apply them to runners and see what you get. Same thing applies to security and I would assume R&D. Keep in mind, a lot of the sec mages will be CHA and INT mages and a lot of the R&D mages are going to be LOG based mages just because aptitudes go that way. So they will be more able for combat(more spirits for more protection or higher initiative and perception).

Anyway, my 2 .

Chris

Posted by: DTFarstar Feb 9 2008, 11:18 PM

You do know that because of the cybermantic procedures involved in keeping the CZ alive that he can basically have unlimited cyber/bio in him while also generating his own personal background count and if they managed to get a mage to do it then he can keep his counterspelling skill. So... uhhh... a LOT more than just a sammie with .1 less essence. If the corp builds one right with all delta they still typically hit -4 or so essence.

Chris

Posted by: Malicant Feb 9 2008, 11:28 PM

Two runner teams, nothing missing, no one wonders. Riiight.

Whoever stored the Zombie might be a little more paranoid than that.

Posted by: Hank Feb 10 2008, 01:22 AM

I'm sorry, maybe I misread the topic. Did the OP want ideas for how to not geek mages, or did he want people to criticize his GM'ing?

Posted by: DTFarstar Feb 10 2008, 01:48 AM

At this point, Hank, I'm not even sure anymore.

Chris

Posted by: Malicant Feb 10 2008, 01:59 AM

How to deal with the mage was already answered. Like on page 1. After that it's repetition and GM criticism. Fun, isn't it?

Posted by: Fortune Feb 10 2008, 02:03 AM

I guess he gets a bonus.

Seriously though, he has been given a lot of advice on how to deal with the subject. He has even been informed that his rulings differ from those of canon (on the side of leniency), and that adjusting those might make a big difference. As far as I can see, he does not like any of the advice, and just wants to argue. Who are we to disappoint?

Posted by: Malicant Feb 10 2008, 02:20 AM

I very much like to argue out of principle.

Posted by: djinni Feb 10 2008, 06:23 AM

I also pointed out it doesn't make a difference.
alot of the "advice" has been "do it properly." with no explainations of "how."

just because he's a cyberzombie does not mean that a corp made him. which also does not mean that he is -4 essence or more...

hank I was asking originally for Ideas on how to have the game not digress into a race to kill the other teams mage. so far the only suggestions have been to "do it properly" which isn't helpful.

Posted by: nathanross Feb 10 2008, 09:42 AM

Sorry if I was harsh, what do you really need to know? Your problem is primarily that the mage throws down too powerful of shit, right? If you really feel that it is ruining your game, either confront him in game or out of game (if he is correctly using the rules).

If you're trying to figure out how to keep runners from geeking the mage first, try D&D. If mages weren't worth killing first, we wouldn't do it.

Its because of what they can do that people want to play them, its also what they do that make us want to fill them full of lead as soon as absolutely possible. I dont think there is a way to change this aspect. I may be wrong though. Even in SR3 with its terribly high drain, we still geeked the mage first.

Posted by: kzt Feb 10 2008, 10:10 AM

You have to reduce what they can do to do that. Overcasting is a big part of it, as is using edge. An overcasted force 12 stunball using edge will do >20 stun on average. Hell, a force 8 will do ~13 stun and require 5 success to stop it.

Making that impossible helps. Assuming that the absurd % numbers for mages in SR have no more relevance than the absurd skill table numbers do is another. If you have countermagic in many situations and have a typical cap of 4-6 success with typical of 3-4 it's possible to resist much more effectively.

You can make wards more effective, by assuming that they remove success from spells rather then providing a bonus to resist. You can increase drain.

There are lots of other things you can do, but you need to figure out what you want the game to play like first.

Posted by: Ravor Feb 10 2008, 04:39 PM

Actually there was quite a bit of advise that went into details of "how", you just didn't like where it led.

Of course, the ultimate advise of all is that it's your table, so if you don't want earth shattering Mages roaming your campaigns then don't aprove such characters.

Posted by: arathian Feb 10 2008, 05:58 PM

That one seems good. Makes sense and is balanced. And, it doesn't prevent the PCs from doing something, it just rachets up the consequences.


Here are a couple house rules my group has been using to bring sanity to direct combat spells and bound spirits:

1. A damage resistance test for direct combat spells is made using Body. Each hit scored reduces the DV by 1.

2. Spirits
a. Spirits are NPCs, and for this reason they are ultimately controlled by the gamemaster. Normally, the summoner may decide the particulars of how the spirit carries out services (except for remote services). However, these choices may be overruled by the gamemaster.
b. The gamemaster always decides if/when spirits use Edge, and spirits often prefer to hold at least some Edge back to use to avoid being disrupted. The summoner is free to suggest to the gamemaster when the spirit may want to use Edge.
c. Bound spirits are an effort to handle if more than one is on hand or actively performing a service. For each additional bound spirit not on standby beyond the first, the magician has a -2 modifier to all tests, similar to sustaining a spell. Note that this does not apply to unbound spirits, so a magician may have an unbound spirit and a bound spirit present or active at the same time with no modifier.

Posted by: Whipstitch Feb 10 2008, 06:19 PM

As I said before, it's not particularly balanced since it'd cripple Mystic Adepts who often have to overcast to do anything over Force 2 even when working on relatively minor tasks. Overcasting is typically only a major issue with combat spells since they're about the only thing that gets a flat guaranteed increase in performance as Force scales upwards. Consider taking the path of least resistance and concentrating on nerfing combat spells rather than the entire drain mechanic if that's really what has you guys so worried. Alternatively, you could countermand the SR4 FAQ and let MystAds use their full magic attribute to determine when they're overcasting which would fix this particular problem and is probably a good idea anyway (Seriously, fuck the FAQ). That said, in this particular instance the guy's clearly an uber mage with a focus on combat casting and Djinni mentioned the guy routinely scores many hits, so I'm going to go out on a limb and say he's got a magic of 5 or so anyway and could still severely cripple or destroy most opposing opponents by casting at Force 5 (Or 4; whatever) for a high DV regardless, and likely could split his dicepools to double cast Force 5 combat spells and demolish people that way if he needed to as well.

Posted by: DTFarstar Feb 11 2008, 01:20 AM

With the overcasting does both stun and physical would you have to resist both sides seperately? Like if you overcast and the Drain is 5 and you get 3 hits on Drain Resistance are you taking 2S and 2P or 5S and 2P? If it is the latter then congrats you can overcast like 2-3 times before falling unconscious no matter what you do.

Chris

Posted by: Malicant Feb 11 2008, 01:25 AM

How about drain is always unresisted. First, it's a serious damper on tac nuking mages. Second, it speeds up gameplay. Tada! I luv my houserules.

[edit:Disclaimer] This is NOT in any possible way a serious suggestion to the topic of increasing drain to control problematic mages. I don't apologize for the inconvenience, though.

Posted by: DTFarstar Feb 11 2008, 01:39 AM

How about the Magician quality costs 40 BP? Would that work for you?

Chris

Posted by: Malicant Feb 11 2008, 01:46 AM

Nah, that's too obvious. Also, would not stop him from tac nuking, just weaken every other aspect of his the character.

Posted by: DTFarstar Feb 11 2008, 01:48 AM

Sorry, the drain is always unresisted irritated me. I tend to play support mages and as such drain is always unresisted would make them completely useless. Keep in mind you have problems with direct damage AOE spells, but you have to consider the impact of your house rules on the whole of magic. I'm honestly sorry for you if you have not had a good support mage with your party before, it brings out a whole new useful and frankly just cool side to magic. Also, people tend not to freak out and try to destroy the mage first if he is a support mage. My mages tend to be REALLY hard to kill, and stay in the back shooting things till we run into something unexpected, then I alter the fabric of reality and help take care of it.

Chris

Posted by: DTFarstar Feb 11 2008, 01:49 AM

Malicant, you can only have 35BPs worth of positive qualities.

Chris

Posted by: kzt Feb 11 2008, 01:50 AM

In creasing the cost of the mage quality has always seemed like a good idea to me.

Posted by: Malicant Feb 11 2008, 01:50 AM

Dude, that was a joke. A snide remark towards any houserules to increase drain. Borderline bait. I will put in a disclaimer now.

Posted by: DTFarstar Feb 11 2008, 02:05 AM

I would just like to say, that you seem to have an idea of how the world of Shadowrun is, and it doesn't jive with your players. You don't want to have magical defenses everywhere, you don't want to geek the mage, you don't want mages walking all over the populace, but you allowed someone who built a pure and utter combat mage into the game. I hate to tell you, if you build a true combat machine with metal they can kill just as well, and usually faster, than a mage can. It is just impossible to build something like that and still have build points left for supplementary skills that REALLY should matter. That is one thing people typically don't take into account when they look at the insane builds that you can make if you throw away the ability to do other things.

I haven't seen your players character sheet, but I have to assume he probably doesn't have much in the way of Athletics, Perception, social skills, etc. You know, the important supplementary ones. You want to kill a group of people 9 meters apart, split your dice pool and throw 4 grenades an initiative pass at them. Killing is easy in SR, it is the other stuff that is hard.

Chris

Posted by: Malicant Feb 11 2008, 02:20 AM

I wonder if the player knows, that he can cast multiple spells a once. With a little less overcasting he could do even more damage.

Posted by: DTFarstar Feb 11 2008, 02:36 AM

Ah, for some reason- probably lack of sleep- I thought you were serious. I've actually heard making drain unresistable suggested as an acceptable solution for someone's mage problems before. So, it got to me.

Chris

Posted by: arathian Feb 11 2008, 04:19 AM

I would say 2S and 2P. For my group adoption of house rules needs to be unanimous, and the other way would never fly.

Posted by: nathanross Feb 11 2008, 05:14 AM

Always suffering drain is a BAD thing. You might as well just throw that build away, cause you ain't surviving. There are better ways to limit magic power than this. Increasing all drain codes by 2 would be better than this, and even that probably wouldn't make the particular mage in question change his ways or playing style.

Posted by: DTFarstar Feb 11 2008, 05:50 AM

I wouldn't mind too terribly having it that way, arathian. I don't think it will solve much with the current problem because apparently the guy soaks down to 0 most of the time anyway.

Chris

Posted by: Glyph Feb 11 2008, 06:54 AM

It seems kind of silly to suggest house rules gimping mages when the GM in question doesn't even want to use the canon rules to limit them. And the canon rules have plenty of ways to keep mages in line, without making them feel like their character is completely useless.

Someone who hyper-specializes in magic should be badass - if you don't want badass PCs in your game, then tell them you're running a lower-powered game. Setting the power level is the GM's responsibility. A player using the standard char-gen rules isn't magically going to know that a legal starting character is "unreasonable" in that particular game.

Posted by: Slymoon Feb 11 2008, 02:45 PM

Exactly

Posted by: cryptoknight Feb 11 2008, 10:14 PM

I was thinking... why not leave drain just as it is... F/2... until mages overcast... at which point it becomes F... Overcasting mega manaball = quick trip to dead... But casting a F = M Manaball = good damage, and much much less drain.

Posted by: jago668 Feb 11 2008, 10:31 PM

Or much less harsh, switch it to F when overcasting but make all drain even overcast stun. So you guy overcasts too much, and drops to the floor. Now his team either has to carry him around or leave him for the bad guys. Gives more oppurtunities for interesting times, scales back some of the overcasting but without making him never want to do so. So he might overcast a time or two, but would make sure it doesn't happen alot.

Posted by: cryptoknight Feb 11 2008, 10:36 PM

That seems like it works too...

Posted by: nathanross Feb 11 2008, 10:47 PM

For some reason I really like this idea. Of course you dont have mages bleeding out of every orifice with this (Which I like), but it does make overcasting more and more scary the higher your character advances. Still, like Glyph said, you should do what you can do within the rules before house ruling.